Helllo! I am a girl from Hong Kong. I like eating bread very much,
especially the European style one. But I can just buy it in delux
hotels and too expensive. So I try to make bread at home.

However, I come across with a problem of dense texture and hard crust
of my loaves of plain white bread. My receipe is usually 500g strong
flour, 350 ml water, 2 teaspoon dry yeast, 1 teaspone salt. I take
every steps seriously such as ensuring enought rising and proving
time.

I think, the problem of dense texture is in the process of kneading.
Books always recommend kneading for 10 mintues. But do you think that
it is enough. Have you heard of 'screen test'? I found this method to
test whether it is kneaded enough in a big English bread book. That
means if we use our fingers to make a part of the dough into thin
sheet, if it is elastic enough and won't break, that means kneading is
finished. However, I have tried to knead from 10 minutes to 50 minutes
and did this screen test every 5 minutes. The dough still can't pass
the test.

Can you share your experiences of kneading with me. How long do I need
for kneading actually? In Hong Kong, buying bread is too easy and
people usually have no time and patience to make bread. And the
brakery learning school just asked me to add 'flour improver' to make
the bread softer. I like natural food and don't want to add any
emusifier.

Thank you for your help!

"Barbie" > wrote in message
om...
> Helllo! I am a girl from Hong Kong. I like eating bread very much,
> especially the European style one. But I can just buy it in delux
> hotels and too expensive. So I try to make bread at home.
>
> However, I come across with a problem of dense texture and hard crust
> of my loaves of plain white bread. My receipe is usually 500g strong
> flour, 350 ml water, 2 teaspoon dry yeast, 1 teaspone salt. I take
> every steps seriously such as ensuring enought rising and proving
> time.
>
> I think, the problem of dense texture is in the process of kneading.
> Books always recommend kneading for 10 mintues. But do you think that
> it is enough. Have you heard of 'screen test'? I found this method to
> test whether it is kneaded enough in a big English bread book. That
> means if we use our fingers to make a part of the dough into thin
> sheet, if it is elastic enough and won't break, that means kneading is
> finished. However, I have tried to knead from 10 minutes to 50 minutes
> and did this screen test every 5 minutes. The dough still can't pass
> the test.
>

"Barbie"
I think many of your questions could be answered at alt.bread.recipes
They are developing a FAQ list at:
http://planeguy.mine.nu/bread/faq_abr.php
10 minutes kneading should be adequate. The window pane test should work by
then. Proofing and rising are not time dependent. Are you allowing the
dough to double in volume at either of these steps? You are using a 70%
hydration which should allow large holes to develope.
HTH
Graham

"Barbie" > wrote in message
om...
> Helllo! I am a girl from Hong Kong. I like eating bread very much,
> especially the European style one. But I can just buy it in delux
> hotels and too expensive. So I try to make bread at home.
>
> However, I come across with a problem of dense texture and hard crust
> of my loaves of plain white bread. My receipe is usually 500g strong
> flour, 350 ml water, 2 teaspoon dry yeast, 1 teaspone salt. I take
> every steps seriously such as ensuring enought rising and proving
> time.
>
> I think, the problem of dense texture is in the process of kneading.
> Books always recommend kneading for 10 mintues. But do you think that
> it is enough. Have you heard of 'screen test'? I found this method to
> test whether it is kneaded enough in a big English bread book. That
> means if we use our fingers to make a part of the dough into thin
> sheet, if it is elastic enough and won't break, that means kneading is
> finished. However, I have tried to knead from 10 minutes to 50 minutes
> and did this screen test every 5 minutes. The dough still can't pass
> the test.
>

"Barbie"
I think many of your questions could be answered at alt.bread.recipes
They are developing a FAQ list at:
http://planeguy.mine.nu/bread/faq_abr.php
10 minutes kneading should be adequate. The window pane test should work by
then. Proofing and rising are not time dependent. Are you allowing the
dough to double in volume at either of these steps? You are using a 70%
hydration which should allow large holes to develope.
HTH
Graham

"Barbie" > wrote in message
om...
> Helllo! I am a girl from Hong Kong. I like eating bread very much,
> especially the European style one. But I can just buy it in delux
> hotels and too expensive. So I try to make bread at home.
>
> However, I come across with a problem of dense texture and hard crust
> of my loaves of plain white bread. My receipe is usually 500g strong
> flour, 350 ml water, 2 teaspoon dry yeast, 1 teaspone salt. I take
> every steps seriously such as ensuring enought rising and proving
> time.
>
> I think, the problem of dense texture is in the process of kneading.
> Books always recommend kneading for 10 mintues. But do you think that
> it is enough. Have you heard of 'screen test'? I found this method to
> test whether it is kneaded enough in a big English bread book. That
> means if we use our fingers to make a part of the dough into thin
> sheet, if it is elastic enough and won't break, that means kneading is
> finished. However, I have tried to knead from 10 minutes to 50 minutes
> and did this screen test every 5 minutes. The dough still can't pass
> the test.
>

"Barbie"
I think many of your questions could be answered at alt.bread.recipes
They are developing a FAQ list at:
http://planeguy.mine.nu/bread/faq_abr.php
10 minutes kneading should be adequate. The window pane test should work by
then. Proofing and rising are not time dependent. Are you allowing the
dough to double in volume at either of these steps? You are using a 70%
hydration which should allow large holes to develope.
HTH
Graham

"Barbie" > wrote in message
om...
> Helllo! I am a girl from Hong Kong. I like eating bread very much,
> especially the European style one. But I can just buy it in delux
> hotels and too expensive. So I try to make bread at home.
>
> However, I come across with a problem of dense texture and hard crust
> of my loaves of plain white bread. My receipe is usually 500g strong
> flour, 350 ml water, 2 teaspoon dry yeast, 1 teaspone salt. I take
> every steps seriously such as ensuring enought rising and proving
> time.
>
> I think, the problem of dense texture is in the process of kneading.
> Books always recommend kneading for 10 mintues. But do you think that
> it is enough. Have you heard of 'screen test'? I found this method to
> test whether it is kneaded enough in a big English bread book. That
> means if we use our fingers to make a part of the dough into thin
> sheet, if it is elastic enough and won't break, that means kneading is
> finished. However, I have tried to knead from 10 minutes to 50 minutes
> and did this screen test every 5 minutes. The dough still can't pass
> the test.
>
> Can you share your experiences of kneading with me. How long do I need
> for kneading actually? In Hong Kong, buying bread is too easy and
> people usually have no time and patience to make bread. And the
> brakery learning school just asked me to add 'flour improver' to make
> the bread softer. I like natural food and don't want to add any
> emusifier.
>
> Thank you for your help!

You might want to take a look at this site. It should answers all your
questions.
http://home.earthlink.net/~ggda/

Ultimately, baking bread is an art. You will get better at it the more you
practice.

"Barbie" > wrote in message
om...
> Helllo! I am a girl from Hong Kong. I like eating bread very much,
> especially the European style one. But I can just buy it in delux
> hotels and too expensive. So I try to make bread at home.
>
> However, I come across with a problem of dense texture and hard crust
> of my loaves of plain white bread. My receipe is usually 500g strong
> flour, 350 ml water, 2 teaspoon dry yeast, 1 teaspone salt. I take
> every steps seriously such as ensuring enought rising and proving
> time.
>
> I think, the problem of dense texture is in the process of kneading.
> Books always recommend kneading for 10 mintues. But do you think that
> it is enough. Have you heard of 'screen test'? I found this method to
> test whether it is kneaded enough in a big English bread book. That
> means if we use our fingers to make a part of the dough into thin
> sheet, if it is elastic enough and won't break, that means kneading is
> finished. However, I have tried to knead from 10 minutes to 50 minutes
> and did this screen test every 5 minutes. The dough still can't pass
> the test.
>
> Can you share your experiences of kneading with me. How long do I need
> for kneading actually? In Hong Kong, buying bread is too easy and
> people usually have no time and patience to make bread. And the
> brakery learning school just asked me to add 'flour improver' to make
> the bread softer. I like natural food and don't want to add any
> emusifier.
>
> Thank you for your help!

You might want to take a look at this site. It should answers all your
questions.
http://home.earthlink.net/~ggda/

Ultimately, baking bread is an art. You will get better at it the more you
practice.

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 13:51:56 +0000, graham wrote:

> You are using a 70%
> hydration which should allow large holes to develope.

Forget 70% hydration and the big holes!! Jesus, she is trying to learn
how to knead bread!

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 13:51:56 +0000, graham wrote:

> You are using a 70%
> hydration which should allow large holes to develope.

Forget 70% hydration and the big holes!! Jesus, she is trying to learn
how to knead bread!

OH Yes! Thank you very much. After letting the dough relax for 10
mins, I can pass the window pane test successfully.

Thank you very much for all of your opinion. Thank you very much!

"michael" > wrote in message
> To pass the window pane test you might try letting the dough relax
> first. Just leave it sit for 10 mins or so. Your strong flour gets
> pretty tight, it needs to calm down a little. Also to do a window pane test you
> really need to know how to 'handle' the dough. I won't worry about a window
> pane test right now acually. You'll do fine.
>
> I doubt if kneading is the problem. Your rises might be too short. If
> you are using strong flour your dough should be able to double or even triple
> in volume and look very puffy. And like already said 'forget time' go by look
> (volume) and feel (puffy).
>
> Actually if you have the time you could knead it for only 5 mins just to get
> the lumps out then let it sit covered for 20 mins. You will notice that it
> will have almost kneaded itself as it were. You can then knead it for a few
> more mins and there you go.

OH Yes! Thank you very much. After letting the dough relax for 10
mins, I can pass the window pane test successfully.

Thank you very much for all of your opinion. Thank you very much!

"michael" > wrote in message
> To pass the window pane test you might try letting the dough relax
> first. Just leave it sit for 10 mins or so. Your strong flour gets
> pretty tight, it needs to calm down a little. Also to do a window pane test you
> really need to know how to 'handle' the dough. I won't worry about a window
> pane test right now acually. You'll do fine.
>
> I doubt if kneading is the problem. Your rises might be too short. If
> you are using strong flour your dough should be able to double or even triple
> in volume and look very puffy. And like already said 'forget time' go by look
> (volume) and feel (puffy).
>
> Actually if you have the time you could knead it for only 5 mins just to get
> the lumps out then let it sit covered for 20 mins. You will notice that it
> will have almost kneaded itself as it were. You can then knead it for a few
> more mins and there you go.