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Barbecue (alt.food.barbecue) Discuss barbecue and grilling--southern style "low and slow" smoking of ribs, shoulders and briskets, as well as direct heat grilling of everything from burgers to salmon to vegetables.

Smoked fish internal temp



 
 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2005, 07:13 AM
Darek Fisk
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Smoked fish internal temp

What is the min internal temp (temp/time combination) of smoked fish to be
safe for eating? I have checked many sites related to fish smoking and I am
not any closer than before to answer this question. Some people consider
140F as good enough for eating, others say 140 F for min 1/2 hour. Yet on
some pages there were claims that 140 F is not safe and requires further
oven/microwave cooking or fish should be brought to 165 F, 180 F or even 190
F.
I like fish cooked as little as possible but yet don't want surprises such
as live flatworms or roundworms in my meal.


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2005, 07:20 AM
Reg
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Darek Fisk wrote:

What is the min internal temp (temp/time combination) of smoked fish to be
safe for eating? I have checked many sites related to fish smoking and I am
not any closer than before to answer this question. Some people consider
140F as good enough for eating, others say 140 F for min 1/2 hour. Yet on
some pages there were claims that 140 F is not safe and requires further
oven/microwave cooking or fish should be brought to 165 F, 180 F or even 190
F.
I like fish cooked as little as possible but yet don't want surprises such
as live flatworms or roundworms in my meal.


If your fish is previously frozen, as many are, your risk is minimal.

Fish are subject to parasites rather than bacteria. Freezing kills
parasites. Anything in a 0 F freezer for a week or more is rendered
just about 100% safe and can be eaten raw. Just ask any sushi chef.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

  #3 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2005, 07:59 AM
Darek Fisk
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Yes you are right, but the fish I am using is freshly caught and my home
freezer can not deliver temp like the commercial freezer.

"Reg" wrote in message
t...
| Darek Fisk wrote:
|
| What is the min internal temp (temp/time combination) of smoked fish to
be
| safe for eating? I have checked many sites related to fish smoking and I
am
| not any closer than before to answer this question. Some people consider
| 140F as good enough for eating, others say 140 F for min 1/2 hour. Yet
on
| some pages there were claims that 140 F is not safe and requires further
| oven/microwave cooking or fish should be brought to 165 F, 180 F or even
190
| F.
| I like fish cooked as little as possible but yet don't want surprises
such
| as live flatworms or roundworms in my meal.
|
| If your fish is previously frozen, as many are, your risk is minimal.
|
| Fish are subject to parasites rather than bacteria. Freezing kills
| parasites. Anything in a 0 F freezer for a week or more is rendered
| just about 100% safe and can be eaten raw. Just ask any sushi chef.
|
| --
| Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com
|


  #4 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2005, 08:41 AM
Reg
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Darek Fisk wrote:

Yes you are right, but the fish I am using is freshly caught and my home
freezer can not deliver temp like the commercial freezer.


It's not the case that you need a commercial freezer to
render fish (or any meat) free of parasites. You just need
to hold it longer.

The lethality curve is a time/temp plot. Higher temperatures,
within certain limits, simply mean that longer holding times are
required to achieve the same result.

If the seafood product achieves a core internal temp of for
example 0 F, and it's held a week, the chances of any larvae
surviving are almost nil. If it's held 2 weeks, it's 100%
safe.

I do this with seafood with which I make smoked fish (max
internal temp of 130 F), sushi, and various tartare dishes.
Also with pork (held 45 days at 0 F), with which I make dry
cured products that are never cooked. It's perfectly safe
if done properly.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

  #5 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2005, 09:38 AM
Darek Fisk
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Do you have by any chance link to a site with such a curve drawing? My
freezer can go down to about -13 C.


"Reg" wrote in message
t...
| Darek Fisk wrote:
|
| Yes you are right, but the fish I am using is freshly caught and my home
| freezer can not deliver temp like the commercial freezer.
|
| It's not the case that you need a commercial freezer to
| render fish (or any meat) free of parasites. You just need
| to hold it longer.
|
| The lethality curve is a time/temp plot. Higher temperatures,
| within certain limits, simply mean that longer holding times are
| required to achieve the same result.
|
| If the seafood product achieves a core internal temp of for
| example 0 F, and it's held a week, the chances of any larvae
| surviving are almost nil. If it's held 2 weeks, it's 100%
| safe.
|
| I do this with seafood with which I make smoked fish (max
| internal temp of 130 F), sushi, and various tartare dishes.
| Also with pork (held 45 days at 0 F), with which I make dry
| cured products that are never cooked. It's perfectly safe
| if done properly.
|
| --
| Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com
|


  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2005, 10:09 AM
[email protected]
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Darek Fisk" wrote:
What is the min internal temp (temp/time combination) of smoked fish to
be safe for eating? I have checked many sites related to fish smoking and
I am not any closer than before to answer this question. Some people
consider 140F as good enough for eating, others say 140 F for min 1/2
hour. Yet on some pages there were claims that 140 F is not safe and
requires further oven/microwave cooking or fish should be brought to 165
F, 180 F or even 190 F.
I like fish cooked as little as possible but yet don't want surprises
such as live flatworms or roundworms in my meal.


Darek, I strongly urge you to get "Great Sausage Recipes and Meat Curing"
by Rytek Kutas. He discusses safe brined or cured cold smoking and hot
smoking for many different kinds of fish. Don't use yourself or family as
guinea pigs!

--
Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled War on Terror Veterans and
their families:
http://saluteheroes.org/ & http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/

Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! !
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2005, 10:11 AM
Reg
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Darek Fisk wrote:

Do you have by any chance link to a site with such a curve drawing? My
freezer can go down to about -13 C.


Take a look here.

http://seafood.ucdavis.edu/HACCP/Compendium/Chapt16.htm

Also, how did you arrive at the -13 C figure? Is that by measurement
or by the manufacturers spec? I have three home freezers of varying
quality (they're nothing special) and they can all hit 0 F (-17 C)
easily if turned down to the coldest setting. Turn yours down all the
way and check with a good thermometer.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

  #8 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2005, 04:08 PM
Brick
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


On 4-Sep-2005, "Darek Fisk" wrote:

Yes you are right, but the fish I am using is freshly caught and my home
freezer can not deliver temp like the commercial freezer.


The USDA guidelines for "Certified Pork" are 20 days at +5F, 10
days at -10F and 6 days at -20F. That table is geared specifically
toward Trichinae which is a worm. As we know the USDA always
allows a margin for error.

Brick


"Reg" wrote in message
t...
| Darek Fisk wrote:
|
| What is the min internal temp (temp/time combination) of smoked fish to
be
| safe for eating?


snip

|
| Fish are subject to parasites rather than bacteria. Freezing kills
| parasites. Anything in a 0 F freezer for a week or more is rendered
| just about 100% safe and can be eaten raw. Just ask any sushi chef.
|
| --
| Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com
|


--
The Brick said that (Don't bother to agree with me, I have already changed my mind.)

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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2005, 04:14 PM
Edwin Pawlowski
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


wrote in message

Don't use yourself or family as
guinea pigs!


Right on. Invite guests.


  #10 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2005, 07:21 PM
Darek Fisk
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


wrote in message
...
| "Darek Fisk" wrote:
| What is the min internal temp (temp/time combination) of smoked fish to
| be safe for eating? I have checked many sites related to fish smoking
and
| I am not any closer than before to answer this question. Some people
| consider 140F as good enough for eating, others say 140 F for min 1/2
| hour. Yet on some pages there were claims that 140 F is not safe and
| requires further oven/microwave cooking or fish should be brought to 165
| F, 180 F or even 190 F.
| I like fish cooked as little as possible but yet don't want surprises
| such as live flatworms or roundworms in my meal.
|
| Darek, I strongly urge you to get "Great Sausage Recipes and Meat Curing"
| by Rytek Kutas. He discusses safe brined or cured cold smoking and hot
| smoking for many different kinds of fish. Don't use yourself or family as
| guinea pigs!

No, I won't. That is why I cooked my last fish to 180 F. But even with my
unsophisticated taste it feld overcooked.


|
| --
| Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled War on Terror Veterans and
| their families:
| http://saluteheroes.org/ & http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/
|
| Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! !
!


  #11 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2005, 11:44 PM
[email protected]
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
wrote in message

Don't use yourself or family as guinea pigs!

Right on. Invite guests.


LMAO

--
Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled War on Terror Veterans and
their families:
http://saluteheroes.org/ & http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/

Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! !
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 05-09-2005, 12:03 AM
[email protected]
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Darek Fisk" wrote:
wrote in message
| "Darek Fisk" wrote:
| What is the min internal temp (temp/time combination) of smoked fish
| to be safe for eating? I have checked many sites related to fish
| smoking
and
| I am not any closer than before to answer this question. Some people
| consider 140F as good enough for eating, others say 140 F for min 1/2
| hour. Yet on some pages there were claims that 140 F is not safe and
| requires further oven/microwave cooking or fish should be brought to
| 165 F, 180 F or even 190 F.
| I like fish cooked as little as possible but yet don't want surprises
| such as live flatworms or roundworms in my meal.
|
| Darek, I strongly urge you to get "Great Sausage Recipes and Meat
| Curing" by Rytek Kutas. He discusses safe brined or cured cold smoking
| and hot smoking for many different kinds of fish. Don't use yourself or
| family as guinea pigs!

No, I won't. That is why I cooked my last fish to 180 F. But even with my
unsophisticated taste it feld overcooked.

180 F sure sounds overcooked to me, too (unless you were doing brisket of
bigfish)! Once again, Darek, I strongly urge you to get "Great Sausage
Recipes and Meat Curing" by Rytek Kutas. He discusses safe brined or cured
cold smoking and hot smoking for many different kinds of fish. It's
available used on Amazon for $32 and up, new $70, although I bought mine
online from the publisher, "The Sausage Maker Inc."
http://www.sausagemaker.com/ $30, also now $40 with a DVD.

--
Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled War on Terror Veterans and
their families:
http://saluteheroes.org/ & http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/

Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! !
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 05-09-2005, 02:43 AM
[email protected]
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Harry Demidavicius wrote:
On 04 Sep 2005 23:03:23 GMT, wrote:
"Darek Fisk" wrote:
wrote in message
| "Darek Fisk" wrote:


| Darek, I strongly urge you to get "Great Sausage Recipes and Meat
| Curing" by Rytek Kutas. He discusses safe brined or cured cold
| smoking and hot smoking for many different kinds of fish. Don't use
| yourself or family as guinea pigs!

No, I won't. That is why I cooked my last fish to 180 F. But even with
my unsophisticated taste it feld overcooked.

180 F sure sounds overcooked to me, too (unless you were doing brisket
of bigfish)! Once again, Darek, I strongly urge you to get "Great
Sausage Recipes and Meat Curing" by Rytek Kutas. He discusses safe
brined or cured cold smoking and hot smoking for many different kinds of
fish. It's available used on Amazon for $32 and up, new $70, although I
bought mine online from the publisher, "The Sausage Maker Inc."
http://www.sausagemaker.com/ $30, also now $40 with a DVD.

Nick - what's the DVD all about?

BTW Kutas is the only professional sausage maker/meat curer who wrote
the book about this subject.

It's a pricey book but well worth it.

At 6-1/2"x9-1/2" and over 500 pp, I don't think it's that pricey. I don't
know what the DVD is about. I saw it when I went to their web site earlier
today. It wasn't available when I bought my copy of the book, don't
remember when, 1984 ed. I've gotta e-mail them and see if the DVD is
available nekkid.

--
Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled War on Terror Veterans and
their families:
http://saluteheroes.org/ & http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/

Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! !
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 05-09-2005, 08:38 AM
Darek Fisk
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I'll borrow this book from my local library tomorrow, that is the fastest
way for me. I did also dig for more information on the internet and from
what I have found it seems that all fish parasites die at 140 F in 1 minute.
But to keep safety margin it is advisable to maintain internal temp of the
thickest part at 145 F for 5 minutes minimum. Better yet it is to freeze the
fish beforehand to -4 F for 7 days.


wrote in message
...
| "Darek Fisk" wrote:
| wrote in message
| | "Darek Fisk" wrote:
| | What is the min internal temp (temp/time combination) of smoked fish
| | to be safe for eating? I have checked many sites related to fish
| | smoking
| and
| | I am not any closer than before to answer this question. Some people
| | consider 140F as good enough for eating, others say 140 F for min
1/2
| | hour. Yet on some pages there were claims that 140 F is not safe and
| | requires further oven/microwave cooking or fish should be brought to
| | 165 F, 180 F or even 190 F.
| | I like fish cooked as little as possible but yet don't want
surprises
| | such as live flatworms or roundworms in my meal.
| |
| | Darek, I strongly urge you to get "Great Sausage Recipes and Meat
| | Curing" by Rytek Kutas. He discusses safe brined or cured cold smoking
| | and hot smoking for many different kinds of fish. Don't use yourself
or
| | family as guinea pigs!
|
| No, I won't. That is why I cooked my last fish to 180 F. But even with
my
| unsophisticated taste it feld overcooked.
|
| 180 F sure sounds overcooked to me, too (unless you were doing brisket of
| bigfish)! Once again, Darek, I strongly urge you to get "Great Sausage
| Recipes and Meat Curing" by Rytek Kutas. He discusses safe brined or cured
| cold smoking and hot smoking for many different kinds of fish. It's
| available used on Amazon for $32 and up, new $70, although I bought mine
| online from the publisher, "The Sausage Maker Inc."
| http://www.sausagemaker.com/ $30, also now $40 with a DVD.
|
| --
| Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled War on Terror Veterans and
| their families:
| http://saluteheroes.org/ & http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/
|
| Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! !
!


 




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