on fruiting canes developing a series of fruit bearing shoots, as well as
non-fruiting shoots...should non-fruiting shoots generally be pinched off,
or should they be left on for photosynthetic value?

Jeff

jeff wrote:

> on fruiting canes developing a series of fruit bearing shoots, as well as
> non-fruiting shoots...should non-fruiting shoots generally be pinched off,
> or should they be left on for photosynthetic value?
>
> Jeff

Jeff, this depends on a couple things. Think ahead to next year. If you
think you will need these shoots to be spurs for next year - and or to
replace some "antlers" that you currently have for spurs this year, then
don't prune them. If they are not needed for future spurs and they are
excessively shading your fruiting spurs then it would probably be a good
idea to prune them providing you have sufficient follage for generating
carbohydrates needed by the roots and vine.

Thanks for the reply. I've already isolated next years fruiting canes. The
shoots I'm referring to are further along this years fruiting canes, and
won't be needed next year. Even so, I'm leaning along the same lines as your
comment about carbohydrate generation. They don't seem to be providing
excessive shade for my fruit as yet (still early). Keeping them for that
reason seems to out weight the nutrition they rob from my fruiting shoots. I
suppose, if they provide more for the vine than what they take, they are
worth keeping.

Regards
Jeff



"Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
...
> jeff wrote:
>
>> on fruiting canes developing a series of fruit bearing shoots, as well as
>> non-fruiting shoots...should non-fruiting shoots generally be pinched
>> off,
>> or should they be left on for photosynthetic value?
>>
>> Jeff
>
> Jeff, this depends on a couple things. Think ahead to next year. If you
> think you will need these shoots to be spurs for next year - and or to
> replace some "antlers" that you currently have for spurs this year, then
> don't prune them. If they are not needed for future spurs and they are
> excessively shading your fruiting spurs then it would probably be a good
> idea to prune them providing you have sufficient follage for generating
> carbohydrates needed by the roots and vine.

Jeff,

Here's my 2 cents. I assume from what you have already said that you
cane prune. If that is correct and you already have shoots closer to
the middle of the vine picked out for next year, if the unfruitful
shoot is inbetween 2 fruitful shoots on the cane, I would take it off.
There always SEEMS to be pleny of room eary in the growing season BUT
once the laterals start growing it might get a little tight.

Bob

jeff wrote:
> Thanks for the reply. I've already isolated next years fruiting canes. The
> shoots I'm referring to are further along this years fruiting canes, and
> won't be needed next year. Even so, I'm leaning along the same lines as your
> comment about carbohydrate generation. They don't seem to be providing
> excessive shade for my fruit as yet (still early). Keeping them for that
> reason seems to out weight the nutrition they rob from my fruiting shoots. I
> suppose, if they provide more for the vine than what they take, they are
> worth keeping.
>
> Regards
> Jeff
>
>
>
> "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
> ...
> > jeff wrote:
> >
> >> on fruiting canes developing a series of fruit bearing shoots, as well as
> >> non-fruiting shoots...should non-fruiting shoots generally be pinched
> >> off,
> >> or should they be left on for photosynthetic value?
> >>
> >> Jeff
> >
> > Jeff, this depends on a couple things. Think ahead to next year. If you
> > think you will need these shoots to be spurs for next year - and or to
> > replace some "antlers" that you currently have for spurs this year, then
> > don't prune them. If they are not needed for future spurs and they are
> > excessively shading your fruiting spurs then it would probably be a good
> > idea to prune them providing you have sufficient follage for generating
> > carbohydrates needed by the roots and vine.

Jeff,

Here's my 2 cents. I assume from what you have already said that you
cane prune. If that is correct and you already have shoots closer to
the middle of the vine picked out for next year, if the unfruitful
shoot is inbetween 2 fruitful shoots on the cane, I would take it off.
There always SEEMS to be pleny of room eary in the growing season BUT
once the laterals start growing it might get a little tight.

Bob

jeff wrote:
> Thanks for the reply. I've already isolated next years fruiting canes. The
> shoots I'm referring to are further along this years fruiting canes, and
> won't be needed next year. Even so, I'm leaning along the same lines as your
> comment about carbohydrate generation. They don't seem to be providing
> excessive shade for my fruit as yet (still early). Keeping them for that
> reason seems to out weight the nutrition they rob from my fruiting shoots. I
> suppose, if they provide more for the vine than what they take, they are
> worth keeping.
>
> Regards
> Jeff
>
>
>
> "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
> ...
> > jeff wrote:
> >
> >> on fruiting canes developing a series of fruit bearing shoots, as well as
> >> non-fruiting shoots...should non-fruiting shoots generally be pinched
> >> off,
> >> or should they be left on for photosynthetic value?
> >>
> >> Jeff
> >
> > Jeff, this depends on a couple things. Think ahead to next year. If you
> > think you will need these shoots to be spurs for next year - and or to
> > replace some "antlers" that you currently have for spurs this year, then
> > don't prune them. If they are not needed for future spurs and they are
> > excessively shading your fruiting spurs then it would probably be a good
> > idea to prune them providing you have sufficient follage for generating
> > carbohydrates needed by the roots and vine.

thanks bob,
Yes, I cane prune. and my spacing is rather tight. that's why I'm toying
with taking them off. on the other hand, Paul mentioned photosynthetic
value, wich I also agree with. Thus, my little dilema. It's still early in
the season, and I'm anticipating vigorous growth, based on what I'm already
getting. I did some canopy management this aft. shoots will grow and
accumulate leaves, but I'm reluctant to remove foliage that already exists.

Jeff


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Jeff,
>
> Here's my 2 cents. I assume from what you have already said that you
> cane prune. If that is correct and you already have shoots closer to
> the middle of the vine picked out for next year, if the unfruitful
> shoot is inbetween 2 fruitful shoots on the cane, I would take it off.
> There always SEEMS to be pleny of room eary in the growing season BUT
> once the laterals start growing it might get a little tight.
>
> Bob
>
> jeff wrote:
>> Thanks for the reply. I've already isolated next years fruiting canes.
>> The
>> shoots I'm referring to are further along this years fruiting canes, and
>> won't be needed next year. Even so, I'm leaning along the same lines as
>> your
>> comment about carbohydrate generation. They don't seem to be providing
>> excessive shade for my fruit as yet (still early). Keeping them for that
>> reason seems to out weight the nutrition they rob from my fruiting
>> shoots. I
>> suppose, if they provide more for the vine than what they take, they are
>> worth keeping.
>>
>> Regards
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>> "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > jeff wrote:
>> >
>> >> on fruiting canes developing a series of fruit bearing shoots, as well
>> >> as
>> >> non-fruiting shoots...should non-fruiting shoots generally be pinched
>> >> off,
>> >> or should they be left on for photosynthetic value?
>> >>
>> >> Jeff
>> >
>> > Jeff, this depends on a couple things. Think ahead to next year. If
>> > you
>> > think you will need these shoots to be spurs for next year - and or to
>> > replace some "antlers" that you currently have for spurs this year,
>> > then
>> > don't prune them. If they are not needed for future spurs and they are
>> > excessively shading your fruiting spurs then it would probably be a
>> > good
>> > idea to prune them providing you have sufficient follage for generating
>> > carbohydrates needed by the roots and vine.
>

thanks bob,
Yes, I cane prune. and my spacing is rather tight. that's why I'm toying
with taking them off. on the other hand, Paul mentioned photosynthetic
value, wich I also agree with. Thus, my little dilema. It's still early in
the season, and I'm anticipating vigorous growth, based on what I'm already
getting. I did some canopy management this aft. shoots will grow and
accumulate leaves, but I'm reluctant to remove foliage that already exists.

Jeff


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Jeff,
>
> Here's my 2 cents. I assume from what you have already said that you
> cane prune. If that is correct and you already have shoots closer to
> the middle of the vine picked out for next year, if the unfruitful
> shoot is inbetween 2 fruitful shoots on the cane, I would take it off.
> There always SEEMS to be pleny of room eary in the growing season BUT
> once the laterals start growing it might get a little tight.
>
> Bob
>
> jeff wrote:
>> Thanks for the reply. I've already isolated next years fruiting canes.
>> The
>> shoots I'm referring to are further along this years fruiting canes, and
>> won't be needed next year. Even so, I'm leaning along the same lines as
>> your
>> comment about carbohydrate generation. They don't seem to be providing
>> excessive shade for my fruit as yet (still early). Keeping them for that
>> reason seems to out weight the nutrition they rob from my fruiting
>> shoots. I
>> suppose, if they provide more for the vine than what they take, they are
>> worth keeping.
>>
>> Regards
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>> "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > jeff wrote:
>> >
>> >> on fruiting canes developing a series of fruit bearing shoots, as well
>> >> as
>> >> non-fruiting shoots...should non-fruiting shoots generally be pinched
>> >> off,
>> >> or should they be left on for photosynthetic value?
>> >>
>> >> Jeff
>> >
>> > Jeff, this depends on a couple things. Think ahead to next year. If
>> > you
>> > think you will need these shoots to be spurs for next year - and or to
>> > replace some "antlers" that you currently have for spurs this year,
>> > then
>> > don't prune them. If they are not needed for future spurs and they are
>> > excessively shading your fruiting spurs then it would probably be a
>> > good
>> > idea to prune them providing you have sufficient follage for generating
>> > carbohydrates needed by the roots and vine.
>

Remove them. You'll have PLENTY of foilage. Right now those shoots are
a DRAIN on the plant as they grow. Come August you won't even remember
they were there.


Bob

Jeff,

I might have been a little curt last post so I apologize in advance.
It's up to you BUT I've found that when I'm that same sort of dilema
the best course of action is to remove them especially if your canopy
already looks tight. If the leaves of the non-fruitful shoots shade the
fruitful ones they're a drag on the plant not a plus.


Bob

No need to apologize. Your point is well taken, and I'm rather relieved to
hear the advice. I'm always concerned about photosynthesis. And while
shading is not a problem yet, I can see tha it will be. It's still only May
after all. Some of my leaves are full size. Shoots are 14 to 16 inches long
already. It's rather prolific fot this time of year. So...off with their
heads.

Thanks again.

Jeff

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Jeff,
>
> I might have been a little curt last post so I apologize in advance.
> It's up to you BUT I've found that when I'm that same sort of dilema
> the best course of action is to remove them especially if your canopy
> already looks tight. If the leaves of the non-fruitful shoots shade the
> fruitful ones they're a drag on the plant not a plus.
>
>
> Bob
>

wrote:

> Remove them. You'll have PLENTY of foilage. Right now those shoots are
> a DRAIN on the plant as they grow. Come August you won't even remember
> they were there.
>
>
> Bob

In my original response I assumed that he was cordon spur pruning but he
indicated this is not the case and he is cane pruning. I do not use this
system so I can not talk from experience but it SEEMS that:

IF, he has excessive vigor and IF the leaves will not shade fruit or nodes
that will become shoots next year he may NEED a drain for the excessive
vigor. The big word is "IF"

It seems to me that if he has very high vigor and IF he removes the non
fruitful shoots, then the energy is going to go into providing more growth
vigor for the existing shoots INSTEAD of putting that energy into the
fruit.

Pruning the non fruitfull canes will not put the energy into the grapes if
he has excessive vigor. It will go into producing more shoot length for
the fruit bearing shoots and leaves. I have read that vines under stress,
or simulated stress, will put the energy into seed (and thus the pulp
around the seed, as a way to preserve the species) as opposed to trying to
reach for the sunlight and climb.

I know this is a somewhat controversial subject and is very much dependent
on area, definitions of excessive vigor, and other variables but I guess
trial and experimentation for individual situations is the only real
solution.

wrote:

> Remove them. You'll have PLENTY of foilage. Right now those shoots are
> a DRAIN on the plant as they grow. Come August you won't even remember
> they were there.
>
>
> Bob

In my original response I assumed that he was cordon spur pruning but he
indicated this is not the case and he is cane pruning. I do not use this
system so I can not talk from experience but it SEEMS that:

IF, he has excessive vigor and IF the leaves will not shade fruit or nodes
that will become shoots next year he may NEED a drain for the excessive
vigor. The big word is "IF"

It seems to me that if he has very high vigor and IF he removes the non
fruitful shoots, then the energy is going to go into providing more growth
vigor for the existing shoots INSTEAD of putting that energy into the
fruit.

Pruning the non fruitfull canes will not put the energy into the grapes if
he has excessive vigor. It will go into producing more shoot length for
the fruit bearing shoots and leaves. I have read that vines under stress,
or simulated stress, will put the energy into seed (and thus the pulp
around the seed, as a way to preserve the species) as opposed to trying to
reach for the sunlight and climb.

I know this is a somewhat controversial subject and is very much dependent
on area, definitions of excessive vigor, and other variables but I guess
trial and experimentation for individual situations is the only real
solution.

Paul,

It seems that I'm getting very valid points from both sides. Haven't pruned
anything yet. I suppose in the end it's a judgement call. My vines are
pretty close together, and eventually conjestion will be a concern. At the
moment it's not a problem, but the season is young. I did pinch clusters
already, however, to focus potassium and energy into remaining clusters.

I don't have a huge vineyard. It's easy to maintain. Therefore, the other
option is to prune un fruiting shoots, and keep nipping off every new shoot
that comes along throughout the season, forcing all energy into remaining
shoots.

The question then is...will the energy go into fruit? or remaining shoot
length?

I read, in General Viticulture, that for proper photosynthetic energy, one
cluster needs on average, about 24 leaves. If I was to control shoots, yet
retain the same number of leaves per cluster, perhaps that would help.
Counting leaves in a vineyard, however, can be labour intensive, and
impossible to keep up with.

Jeff

"Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
>> Remove them. You'll have PLENTY of foilage. Right now those shoots are
>> a DRAIN on the plant as they grow. Come August you won't even remember
>> they were there.
>>
>>
>> Bob
>
> In my original response I assumed that he was cordon spur pruning but he
> indicated this is not the case and he is cane pruning. I do not use this
> system so I can not talk from experience but it SEEMS that:
>
> IF, he has excessive vigor and IF the leaves will not shade fruit or nodes
> that will become shoots next year he may NEED a drain for the excessive
> vigor. The big word is "IF"
>
> It seems to me that if he has very high vigor and IF he removes the non
> fruitful shoots, then the energy is going to go into providing more growth
> vigor for the existing shoots INSTEAD of putting that energy into the
> fruit.
>
> Pruning the non fruitfull canes will not put the energy into the grapes if
> he has excessive vigor. It will go into producing more shoot length for
> the fruit bearing shoots and leaves. I have read that vines under stress,
> or simulated stress, will put the energy into seed (and thus the pulp
> around the seed, as a way to preserve the species) as opposed to trying to
> reach for the sunlight and climb.
>
> I know this is a somewhat controversial subject and is very much dependent
> on area, definitions of excessive vigor, and other variables but I guess
> trial and experimentation for individual situations is the only real
> solution.
>
>

jeff wrote:

> Paul,
>
> It seems that I'm getting very valid points from both sides. Haven't
> pruned anything yet. I suppose in the end it's a judgement call. My vines
> are pretty close together, and eventually conjestion will be a concern. At
> the moment it's not a problem, but the season is young. I did pinch
> clusters already, however, to focus potassium and energy into remaining
> clusters.
>
> I don't have a huge vineyard. It's easy to maintain. Therefore, the other
> option is to prune un fruiting shoots, and keep nipping off every new
> shoot that comes along throughout the season, forcing all energy into
> remaining shoots.
>
> The question then is...will the energy go into fruit? or remaining shoot
> length?
>
> I read, in General Viticulture, that for proper photosynthetic energy, one
> cluster needs on average, about 24 leaves. If I was to control shoots, yet
> retain the same number of leaves per cluster, perhaps that would help.
> Counting leaves in a vineyard, however, can be labour intensive, and
> impossible to keep up with.
>
> Jeff

Jeff, where are you located? What are you growing? How long do your shoots
normally grow during a normal growing season?

After a few seasons you too will be an "Expert" or at least have your own
opinions.

Keep us informed of your discoveries and share any lessons learned.

Paul


>
> "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
> ...
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Remove them. You'll have PLENTY of foilage. Right now those shoots are
>>> a DRAIN on the plant as they grow. Come August you won't even remember
>>> they were there.
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob
>>
>> In my original response I assumed that he was cordon spur pruning but he
>> indicated this is not the case and he is cane pruning. I do not use this
>> system so I can not talk from experience but it SEEMS that:
>>
>> IF, he has excessive vigor and IF the leaves will not shade fruit or
>> nodes that will become shoots next year he may NEED a drain for the
>> excessive
>> vigor. The big word is "IF"
>>
>> It seems to me that if he has very high vigor and IF he removes the non
>> fruitful shoots, then the energy is going to go into providing more
>> growth vigor for the existing shoots INSTEAD of putting that energy into
>> the fruit.
>>
>> Pruning the non fruitfull canes will not put the energy into the grapes
>> if
>> he has excessive vigor. It will go into producing more shoot length for
>> the fruit bearing shoots and leaves. I have read that vines under
>> stress, or simulated stress, will put the energy into seed (and thus the
>> pulp around the seed, as a way to preserve the species) as opposed to
>> trying to reach for the sunlight and climb.
>>
>> I know this is a somewhat controversial subject and is very much
>> dependent on area, definitions of excessive vigor, and other variables
>> but I guess trial and experimentation for individual situations is the
>> only real solution.
>>
>>

Jeff,
Im not sure what variety you are growing or where you're growing them,
but if you don't have good internodal spacing then I would shoot thin.
Shoot thinning, IMHO, opens up the canopy allowing more air flow and
more sunlight into the developing basal buds where next years shoots
will grow from. If your internodal spacings are close, then thinning
shoots will help balance the canopy and give the vine a chance to have
better spacing next season. If your spacings are good then I would
imagine you have enough buds on the canes laid down that non fruiting
shoots wont be a drain so much as a help when it comes to ripening the
fruit.
It would be interesting to know what crop weight you were aiming for as
well. It has been my experience that this early in the season, or
rather your season as I live in NZ, that the vines will have more than
enough time and energy to put up more canopy if they feel the need.

In answer to both Paul and "Kiwizoom", I am growing cab franc in southern
ontario, Canada. Franc usually grows pretty good around here. I'm an hours
drive from niagara wine country. They make a good franc down there. One of
their better red varietals.

This is the second year for fruiting vines for me. Because I have purposely
limited my growing area to a small space, I am working with an unorthodox
system of viticulture, using out-door hydrponics (don't laugh--it's
working). Check out www.africusrex.com for a visual of the vineyard. You'll
see what I'm accomplishing in the space I'm dealing with. (or if you read
WineMaker magazine, I think the latest issue has the article).

Needless to say, the principles of hydroponics change vine root development
(but that's another thread).

While the vine roots tend to take on their own morphology, canopy management
still holds to traditional pruning methods. However, because I've
deliberately (emphasis on deliberately) restricted the space, I am being
very judicious as to what growth is allowed to stay and what gets hacked
off. Thus, my pruning questions.

My trellising methods employ a single upright fruiting cane growing lateral
fruiting shoots. Internodal spacing is a bit close on some shoots. Yet on
most shoots, is right on the money.

The vines are very healthy and at this point; a month ahead of traditional
cab franc vineyards nearby (I drove down there and checked).

I've ordered several batches of cab franc grapes from Niagara, to compare
taste and quality with my own harvest.

This should give you a better idea of what my pruning questions are about.

Jeff

"kiwizoom" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Jeff,
> Im not sure what variety you are growing or where you're growing them,
> but if you don't have good internodal spacing then I would shoot thin.
> Shoot thinning, IMHO, opens up the canopy allowing more air flow and
> more sunlight into the developing basal buds where next years shoots
> will grow from. If your internodal spacings are close, then thinning
> shoots will help balance the canopy and give the vine a chance to have
> better spacing next season. If your spacings are good then I would
> imagine you have enough buds on the canes laid down that non fruiting
> shoots wont be a drain so much as a help when it comes to ripening the
> fruit.
> It would be interesting to know what crop weight you were aiming for as
> well. It has been my experience that this early in the season, or
> rather your season as I live in NZ, that the vines will have more than
> enough time and energy to put up more canopy if they feel the need.
>

jeff wrote:

> In answer to both Paul and "Kiwizoom", I am growing cab franc in southern
> ontario, Canada. Franc usually grows pretty good around here. I'm an hours
> drive from niagara wine country. They make a good franc down there. One of
> their better red varietals.
>
> This is the second year for fruiting vines for me. Because I have
> purposely limited my growing area to a small space, I am working with an
> unorthodox system of viticulture, using out-door hydrponics (don't
> laugh--it's working). Check out www.africusrex.com for a visual of the
> vineyard. You'll see what I'm accomplishing in the space I'm dealing with.
> (or if you read WineMaker magazine, I think the latest issue has the
> article).
>
> Needless to say, the principles of hydroponics change vine root
> development (but that's another thread).
>
> While the vine roots tend to take on their own morphology, canopy
> management still holds to traditional pruning methods. However, because
> I've deliberately (emphasis on deliberately) restricted the space, I am
> being very judicious as to what growth is allowed to stay and what gets
> hacked off. Thus, my pruning questions.
>
> My trellising methods employ a single upright fruiting cane growing
> lateral fruiting shoots. Internodal spacing is a bit close on some shoots.
> Yet on most shoots, is right on the money.
>
> The vines are very healthy and at this point; a month ahead of traditional
> cab franc vineyards nearby (I drove down there and checked).
>
> I've ordered several batches of cab franc grapes from Niagara, to compare
> taste and quality with my own harvest.
>
> This should give you a better idea of what my pruning questions are about.
>
> Jeff
>
> "kiwizoom" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Jeff,
>> Im not sure what variety you are growing or where you're growing them,
>> but if you don't have good internodal spacing then I would shoot thin.
>> Shoot thinning, IMHO, opens up the canopy allowing more air flow and
>> more sunlight into the developing basal buds where next years shoots
>> will grow from. If your internodal spacings are close, then thinning
>> shoots will help balance the canopy and give the vine a chance to have
>> better spacing next season. If your spacings are good then I would
>> imagine you have enough buds on the canes laid down that non fruiting
>> shoots wont be a drain so much as a help when it comes to ripening the
>> fruit.
>> It would be interesting to know what crop weight you were aiming for as
>> well. It has been my experience that this early in the season, or
>> rather your season as I live in NZ, that the vines will have more than
>> enough time and energy to put up more canopy if they feel the need.
>>

Jeff, Wow, I am impressed. Now that I see your vineyard, I have no idea of
what will work best. I think you are in the process of writing the
textbook for this system yourself. Nice work and keep us informed.

Paul

Jeff et all

First point: This is one of the best discussions I have seen on this
News group, vis-a-vis pruning, canes, spurs, growth etc. Second: I
am glad to see that there are many who have questions related to vigor
and growth this year, as we have been having amazing growth here on
the Central Coast of California. We have the same questions.
Interestingly, as we visit vineyards in the area, it seems that all
theories of viticulture abound. Perhaps there are few "right" or
"wrong" answers.

We have internodal distances of 6 and 8 inches on the new canes!
(Spur distance is 4-5 inches) We barely finish pruning the 15th row,
and it seems as if the 1st row needs attention again. Usually we keep
our trunks clean of any kind of growth so that the energy is targeted
at the new fruit and the leaves necessary to nourish them. This year
we have left some trunk growth on the plants longer than in the past
in an attempt to slow them down a bit, and do removing them, but not
as diligently as we have in our previous 6 growing seasons.

It has been a very wet year here, and the soil is still damp a few
inches below the surface. We have had to leaf and lateral thin twice
already just to be able to see the fruit! Someone noted that taking
off leaves and laterals now was not a problem as there would be plenty
of growth to come. Absolutely our case and belief. While admittedly
a bit lax on the trunks this year, we have been a bit more aggressive
on the canopy side this year, as we see how fast the vines are
growing. The fruit crop is more plentiful than normal, and at this
point we are letting it grow to stress the plants a bit. We will drop
some later.

In all, this has been a schizophrenic growing season for us thus far,
and it has only just begun!

Regards

Jerry





"jeff" > wrote in message
...
> on fruiting canes developing a series of fruit bearing shoots, as
> well as non-fruiting shoots...should non-fruiting shoots generally
> be pinched off, or should they be left on for photosynthetic value?
>
> Jeff
>

Thanks Paul

I actually bit the bullet today and decided to do some pruning. Removed
non-fruiting shoots, except for next years fruiting cane.

I think this way I'll be able to observe uninhibited growth on fruiting
shoots and determine if a sink is necessary to slow things up, or what other
adjustments to make nutritionally, etc.

I do appreciate your insigt thus far. You're right, I don't really have much
of a reference to go by other than trial and error.

I will post updates as the season progresses.

Regards
Jeff

"Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
...
> jeff wrote:
>
>> In answer to both Paul and "Kiwizoom", I am growing cab franc in southern
>> ontario, Canada. Franc usually grows pretty good around here. I'm an
>> hours
>> drive from niagara wine country. They make a good franc down there. One
>> of
>> their better red varietals.
>>
>> This is the second year for fruiting vines for me. Because I have
>> purposely limited my growing area to a small space, I am working with an
>> unorthodox system of viticulture, using out-door hydrponics (don't
>> laugh--it's working). Check out www.africusrex.com for a visual of the
>> vineyard. You'll see what I'm accomplishing in the space I'm dealing
>> with.
>> (or if you read WineMaker magazine, I think the latest issue has the
>> article).
>>
>> Needless to say, the principles of hydroponics change vine root
>> development (but that's another thread).
>>
>> While the vine roots tend to take on their own morphology, canopy
>> management still holds to traditional pruning methods. However, because
>> I've deliberately (emphasis on deliberately) restricted the space, I am
>> being very judicious as to what growth is allowed to stay and what gets
>> hacked off. Thus, my pruning questions.
>>
>> My trellising methods employ a single upright fruiting cane growing
>> lateral fruiting shoots. Internodal spacing is a bit close on some
>> shoots.
>> Yet on most shoots, is right on the money.
>>
>> The vines are very healthy and at this point; a month ahead of
>> traditional
>> cab franc vineyards nearby (I drove down there and checked).
>>
>> I've ordered several batches of cab franc grapes from Niagara, to compare
>> taste and quality with my own harvest.
>>
>> This should give you a better idea of what my pruning questions are
>> about.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> "kiwizoom" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>> Jeff,
>>> Im not sure what variety you are growing or where you're growing them,
>>> but if you don't have good internodal spacing then I would shoot thin.
>>> Shoot thinning, IMHO, opens up the canopy allowing more air flow and
>>> more sunlight into the developing basal buds where next years shoots
>>> will grow from. If your internodal spacings are close, then thinning
>>> shoots will help balance the canopy and give the vine a chance to have
>>> better spacing next season. If your spacings are good then I would
>>> imagine you have enough buds on the canes laid down that non fruiting
>>> shoots wont be a drain so much as a help when it comes to ripening the
>>> fruit.
>>> It would be interesting to know what crop weight you were aiming for as
>>> well. It has been my experience that this early in the season, or
>>> rather your season as I live in NZ, that the vines will have more than
>>> enough time and energy to put up more canopy if they feel the need.
>>>
>
> Jeff, Wow, I am impressed. Now that I see your vineyard, I have no idea
> of
> what will work best. I think you are in the process of writing the
> textbook for this system yourself. Nice work and keep us informed.
>
> Paul

Jerry,

Well I'm glad to see I'm not the only one with this pruning challenge. I
feel I might be beginning to get a picture now, regarding what is generally
allowed to remain and what is not. As you say, we are so early into the
season, whatever is removed at this stage has several weeks to grow back in.
All in all, I'm perceiving shoot removal is a judgement call, pertaining to
varietal, location, training system and several other variables. I guess one
has to simply get in sync with his own vines.

Our growing season here in southern ontario has also been schizophrenic.
Lengthy amounts of sun and warmth, followed by a rain, followed by mixed sun
and cloud, and the cycle starts over again.

I made a judgement call and pruned today, foreseeing the potential
congestion of vegetation as the season gets into full swing. I've cleaned my
trunks and the base of my canes as well, except for lower shoots I plan to
grow into next years fruiting canes (I cane prune, to keep things simple for
the time being).

Strangely, a few of my vines are not fruiting at all, for reasons I have not
come to terms with yet. I have removed quite a bit of vegetation from them,
save choice shoots for next year.

I'll wait and see what happens to the vineyard next, and make a decision
based on how my vines react to what I did today.

All the best for your own vines, and growing season

Jeff

"Jerry DeAngelis" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Jeff et all
>
> First point: This is one of the best discussions I have seen on this News
> group, vis-a-vis pruning, canes, spurs, growth etc. Second: I am glad to
> see that there are many who have questions related to vigor and growth
> this year, as we have been having amazing growth here on the Central Coast
> of California. We have the same questions. Interestingly, as we visit
> vineyards in the area, it seems that all theories of viticulture abound.
> Perhaps there are few "right" or "wrong" answers.
>
> We have internodal distances of 6 and 8 inches on the new canes! (Spur
> distance is 4-5 inches) We barely finish pruning the 15th row, and it
> seems as if the 1st row needs attention again. Usually we keep our trunks
> clean of any kind of growth so that the energy is targeted at the new
> fruit and the leaves necessary to nourish them. This year we have left
> some trunk growth on the plants longer than in the past in an attempt to
> slow them down a bit, and do removing them, but not as diligently as we
> have in our previous 6 growing seasons.
>
> It has been a very wet year here, and the soil is still damp a few inches
> below the surface. We have had to leaf and lateral thin twice already
> just to be able to see the fruit! Someone noted that taking off leaves
> and laterals now was not a problem as there would be plenty of growth to
> come. Absolutely our case and belief. While admittedly a bit lax on the
> trunks this year, we have been a bit more aggressive on the canopy side
> this year, as we see how fast the vines are growing. The fruit crop is
> more plentiful than normal, and at this point we are letting it grow to
> stress the plants a bit. We will drop some later.
>
> In all, this has been a schizophrenic growing season for us thus far, and
> it has only just begun!
>
> Regards
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
>
> "jeff" > wrote in message
> ...
>> on fruiting canes developing a series of fruit bearing shoots, as well as
>> non-fruiting shoots...should non-fruiting shoots generally be pinched
>> off, or should they be left on for photosynthetic value?
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>
>

Hi Jeff
Hydroponic viticulture....wow!! For some reason this concept has never
occurred to me but what an interesting idea. Please keep letting us
know how this goes please Jeff. From the photos it seems you're doing
things pretty much as they should be, the vines look healthy. Last
season I had areas of the vineyard I was managing that had more non
fruiting shoots than other parts. After much discussion and
observation we decided it may well have been that they were lacking
some nutrients due to the soil type in that part of the vineyard. It
seems to me though that being hydroponically grown all your vines would
receive the same nutrients as the others, so perhaps for some reason
they are a little more stressed? Just a thought.
Are you keeping notes on what you are doing with the vines each time
you work on them? also, if you're not sure which is the best way to
treat them, then perhaps having a control group to compare with might
be a good idea. Even treating one vine differently may be enough to do
comparisons.
My thoughts on your shoot thinning are that opening up the canopy is a
good thing, especially if you have high humidty. It will help control
and show any powdery or botrytis problems.

Jerry,
Sounds like the season you are having is the season we've just finished
here in New Zealand. It was probably one of the most unpredictable
seasons we've every had. Taught us all a lot I think and made us think
out of the square, just as you are doing ie not bud rubbing the trunks
as often or as thoroughly as you may have other seasons. We shoot
thinned and then had to come through and lateral thin several times on
some of our blocks. We still had powdery mildew problems and now feel
we should have been more agressive with the lateral thinning. Next year
we intend to be but it will probably be a dry year with less growth,
just because we are prepared for the opposite.
This is a great discussion by the way. Always interesting to hear what
other viticulturists are up to. )

"kiwizoom" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Hi Jeff
> Are you keeping notes on what you are doing with the vines each time
> you work on them?

I've been keeping detailed notes and daily records of weather, pH, growth
rate, hours of sunshine, spray schedules, as well as regular dated photos of
vine development. It's become an obsession.

> My thoughts on your shoot thinning are that opening up the canopy is a
> good thing, especially if you have high humidty. It will help control
> and show any powdery or botrytis problems.

Yes, I did thin a lot. Fact is, I didn't do a lot of winter/spring pruning,
until I knew how my buds were going to behave.

I will keep the group posted.

Thanks for your input.

Jeff

Jeff,

How many canes are you allowing for each vine??? How much fruit will
you leave on each plant??? BTW, obviously I think you made the right
decision about the non-fruiting shoots. With a vertical fruiting cane,
are you seeing 'even" growth from all your shoots on the cane???


Bob


Bob

Jeff,

Couple more questions.

1. Don't you bring your vines inside over the winter??? If so I would
assume most of the buds should have survived.

2. The non-fruitful vines is an interesting issue. Hmmm........

3. Did you use the hot-house to get these things going this spring????
I would assume hot-houses are like BIG grow tubes and would assume that
is why your vines are so ahead of everyone elses and so vigorous. I
personnally don't use grow tubes and it would be interesting to know
how the vines respond when you take the hot-house down. I would assume
the vigor would slow until the natural environment catches up to the
climate of the hot house. I wouldn't assume a linear vigor pattern
because of that.


Bob

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Jeff,
>
> How many canes are you allowing for each vine???

Due to space restrictions, I am starting with ONE fruitng cane for each
vine.

>How much fruit will you leave on each plant???

While dealing with hydroponic issues, and potassium needs, I have reduced my
clusters already, from what started out as 15, and pinched back down to
between 5 and 7 per vine. Until I can determine root demand, nutritional
capabilities, and other details.

I'm watching leaves carefully, maintaining nutrient pH, and keeping
potassium demands at optimum levels. I've experience potassium deficiencies
before in soil, and know the signs. Not seeing any at this point.
Hydroponics allows for immediate adjustments.

>BTW, obviously I think you made the right decision about the non-fruiting
>shoots. With a vertical fruiting cane, are you seeing 'even" growth from
>all your shoots on the cane???

Sort of. Yes and no. Because I didn't cut my can back early, top buds grew
shoots first. Lower buds lagged behind. As a result, this year I am working
with a top heavy canopy, and training fruiting shoots within that space.

Jeff

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Jeff,
>
> Couple more questions.
>
> 1. Don't you bring your vines inside over the winter??? If so I would
> assume most of the buds should have survived.

I picked up a little winter preservation trick. When I bought the vines
originally they were bundled in cold storage. For the last 5 years I've been
repeating the process with the same vines. Every November after leaf fall
and total dormancy, I soak in a mild fungicide, and gently wrap the roots
and canes in individual plastics and keep in a refrigerator at 34 F until
April. I check them every 4 to 6 weeks, re soak, etc. So far, so good.

> 2. The non-fruitful vines is an interesting issue. Hmmm........

Acutally, on closer inspection, they are fruiting, sort of. I'm noticing
tiny mutated flowering clusters. Only one vine is behaving this way at this
point. I'm treating it as a non fruiting vine.

> 3. Did you use the hot-house to get these things going this spring????

Yes, a portable greenhouse that puts up and takes down in 30 minutes.
Because we have high frost risk spring, I protect the buds over night.
Without use of a heater, daytime temps can climb to 55 or 60 F. This gives
them a bit of a head start on local vines. I remove the greenhouse when
weather is consistently risk free, or during the day. If a week of cold
spring rain is in the forecast it goes up and stays until the systme passes
through.

> I would assume hot-houses are like BIG grow tubes and would assume that

I used grow tubes for starting vines years ago. Didn't like them. They had
their own ecosystem in there and it was nerve racking.

>it would be interesting to know how the vines respond when you take the
>hot-house down.

Yes, they behave normally. I allow hothouse temps to equalize with outside
first, then take it down. The vines behave fine. no drooping or shock.
Better sun.

>I would assume the vigor would slow until the natural environment catches
>up to the climate of the hot house. I wouldn't assume a linear vigor
>pattern because of that.

Perhaps you are right about that. Showing good growth, but due to my
deliberate space restrictions and a bit of survival cheating in spring (and
fall), there is a different morphology with the canopy.

Jeff