I have some vines that were hit hard by last year's Easter frost. I had
to take many back to the ground. So I now have a mix of 2 and 3 year
old vines. Since I'll nip off almost all of the clusters, would it be
better to allow some more buds than the average recommended buds per
vine to get a few more leaves out for more nutrients for the vine or go
with the data for a producing vine? This applies mostly to the 3 yr
vines. I'm not going to let them go wild but I'd like to build them up
as much as possible.

Dick

Dick Heckman wrote:

> I have some vines that were hit hard by last
> year's Easter frost. I had
> to take many back to the ground. So I now have
> a mix of 2 and 3 year
> old vines. Since I'll nip off almost all of the
> clusters, would it be better to allow some more
> buds than the average recommended buds per vine
> to get a few more leaves out for more nutrients
> for the vine or go
> with the data for a producing vine? This
> applies mostly to the 3 yr
> vines. I'm not going to let them go wild but
> I'd like to build them up as much as possible.
>
> Dick

I don't know your particulars such as variety etc
but I also lost about 80% of my fruiting buds
last year. I was in the process of converting
from the lyre to a simple VSP trellising so
everything that produced shoots I left and let it
grow to produce carbs for the roots. I did not
loose any trunks and I had a lot of shoots grow
from old wood last year but of course they were
not fruitful.

This year I coverted from cordon - spur pruning to
cane pruning. Cane pruning is suppose to offer
some advantages such as bigger clusters and less
old wood to harbor overwintering disease. Time
will tell.

Where do you live and what are you growing?

I'm in Huntsville, AL, 30 miles from the Tennessee line and on a ridgetop.

I've got some 3 yr old Chancellor that survived. Some of the Chancellor
was hit bad and I replaced it with Noiret which is now in it's second
year. All existing Noiret was knocked back to the ground and so all
Noiret is 2 yrs. Some of my Cynthiana had split trunks and have been
cut to the ground and brought back up last year so they are 2 yr also
but I have some 3 yr Cynthiana as well. My Chambourcin was hit the
worst and none have filled out cordons and several died completely.
I'll see what they do this year but I may swap them for something else.
All vines were originally planted in 2006 so this is their 3rd yr.

All vines have been trained to a high cordon/spur system as that was
recommended by Tennessee ag station folks but I've been told that Noiret
likes longer spurs and I would think that both Cynthiana and Chancellor
would be the same so I may go with a modified cordon/cane high cordon
type system.

The big question is with the older Cynthiana and Chancellor. Should I
cut the Chancellor back to the 20 or 30 buds and the Cynthiana to 50 or
60 buds that balanced pruning would call for or just trim prudently set
the vine up for future years and then clip clusters so that the vigor
goes to the vine.

I've done a basic pruning but there are still plenty of buds,
particularly on the Cynthiana.

Dick


Paul E. Lehmann wrote:

>
> I don't know your particulars such as variety etc
> but I also lost about 80% of my fruiting buds
> last year. I was in the process of converting
> from the lyre to a simple VSP trellising so
> everything that produced shoots I left and let it
> grow to produce carbs for the roots. I did not
> loose any trunks and I had a lot of shoots grow
> from old wood last year but of course they were
> not fruitful.
>
> This year I coverted from cordon - spur pruning to
> cane pruning. Cane pruning is suppose to offer
> some advantages such as bigger clusters and less
> old wood to harbor overwintering disease. Time
> will tell.
>
> Where do you live and what are you growing?

Dick Heckman wrote:

> I'm in Huntsville, AL, 30 miles from the
> Tennessee line and on a ridgetop.

Are you at an elevation that usually has mid April
freeze problems? If so, you may want to consider
other varieties. You may want to talk to your AG
person and see what they recommend. I know there
are several cold hardy varieties that have been
developed recently such as Frontenac.

Cabernet Franc also appears to be sort of cold
tolerant and is even grown in New York State.
When there are serious freeze problems here in
Central Maryland it is usually one of the
varieties that comes through in good shape.

>
> I've got some 3 yr old Chancellor that survived.
> Some of the Chancellor was hit bad and I
> replaced it with Noiret which is now in it's
> second

> year. All existing Noiret was knocked back to
> the ground and so all
> Noiret is 2 yrs. Some of my Cynthiana had split
> trunks and have been cut to the ground and
> brought back up last year so they are 2 yr also
> but I have some 3 yr Cynthiana as well. My
> Chambourcin was hit the worst and none have
> filled out cordons and several died completely.
> I'll see what they do this year but I may swap
> them for something else. All vines were
> originally planted in 2006 so this is their 3rd
> yr.
>
> All vines have been trained to a high
> cordon/spur system as that was recommended by
> Tennessee ag station folks but I've been told
> that Noiret likes longer spurs and I would think
> that both Cynthiana and Chancellor would be the
> same so I may go with a modified cordon/cane
> high cordon type system.
>
> The big question is with the older Cynthiana and
> Chancellor. Should I cut the Chancellor back to
> the 20 or 30 buds and the Cynthiana to 50 or 60
> buds that balanced pruning would call for or
> just trim prudently set the vine up for future
> years and then clip clusters so that the vigor
> goes to the vine.

Do you have spurs that are from last years growth?
or are you talking about spurs that had buds that
froze last year?

>
> I've done a basic pruning but there are still
> plenty of buds, particularly on the Cynthiana.
>
> Dick

I think two or three years is a little soon to be
expecting fruit or much fruit. I am not familiar
with Cynthiana so maybe someone else could
advise.

On my vines, I typically prune back to two buds
above the graft union after the first year and
wait until the third year to put two canes on the
cordon wire. When I do this on the third year, I
keep the cordons short - about 18 inches and
build out each year from there.

It sounds like you have self rooted vines and not
growing on root stock. Maybe if you could find
some grafted vines they might do better? I am
only guessing here. Maybe others on this
newsgroup or your AG person can give you more
advice.

>
>
> Paul E. Lehmann wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't know your particulars such as variety
>> etc but I also lost about 80% of my fruiting
>> buds
>> last year. I was in the process of converting
>> from the lyre to a simple VSP trellising so
>> everything that produced shoots I left and let
>> it grow to produce carbs for the roots. I did
>> not loose any trunks and I had a lot of shoots
>> grow from old wood last year but of course they
>> were not fruitful.
>>
>> This year I coverted from cordon - spur pruning
>> to
>> cane pruning. Cane pruning is suppose to offer
>> some advantages such as bigger clusters and
>> less
>> old wood to harbor overwintering disease. Time
>> will tell.
>>
>> Where do you live and what are you growing?

Dick,

I'm a little confused. A frost shoulcn't kill the vine back to the
roots. If your vine is split or dead, it probably was the result of
damage during the winter. Usually warm spells followed by really cold
spells will do a number on vines. Also, do you get much wind during
the winter??? Cold wind at night could do it. Are your vines in the
sun during the winter??? I hope so. Also, It seems to me that you're
leaving way too many buds. I would keep the bud count to 15-20 and see
if that helps. If you get a frost, leave the vines alone. The
secondary buds will shoot eventually. If the vine was pruned correctly
you needn't prune after the frost. Another thing that causes trunk
split is too much water or too heavy a soil that holds too much water.

Hope this helps


Bob

On Apr 7, 10:06*am, Dick Heckman > wrote:
> I'm in Huntsville, AL, 30 miles from *the Tennessee line and on a ridgetop.
>
> I've got some 3 yr old Chancellor that survived. *Some of the Chancellor
> was hit bad and I replaced it with Noiret which is now in it's second
> year. *All existing Noiret was knocked back to the ground and so all
> Noiret is 2 yrs. *Some of my Cynthiana had split trunks and have been
> cut to the ground and brought back up last year so they are 2 yr also
> but I have some 3 yr Cynthiana as well. *My Chambourcin was hit the
> worst and none have filled out cordons and several died completely.
> I'll see what they do this year but I may swap them for something else.
> All vines were originally planted in 2006 so this is their 3rd yr.
>
> All vines have been trained to a high cordon/spur system as that was
> recommended by Tennessee ag station folks but I've been told that Noiret
> likes longer spurs and I would think that both Cynthiana and Chancellor
> would be the same so I may go with a modified cordon/cane high cordon
> type system.
>
> The big question is with the older Cynthiana and Chancellor. *Should I
> cut the Chancellor back to the 20 or 30 buds and the Cynthiana to 50 or
> 60 buds that balanced pruning would call for or just trim prudently set
> the vine up for future years and then clip clusters so that the vigor
> goes to the vine.
>
> I've done a basic pruning but there are still plenty of buds,
> particularly on the Cynthiana.
>
> Dick
>
> Paul E. Lehmann wrote:
>
> > I don't know your particulars such as variety etc
> > but I also lost about 80% of my fruiting buds
> > last year. *I was in the process of converting
> > from the lyre to a simple VSP trellising so
> > everything that produced shoots I left and let it
> > grow to produce carbs for the roots. I did not
> > loose any trunks and I had a lot of shoots grow
> > from old wood last year but of course they were
> > not fruitful.
>
> > This year I coverted from cordon - spur pruning to
> > cane pruning. *Cane pruning is suppose to offer
> > some advantages such as bigger clusters and less
> > old wood to harbor overwintering disease. *Time
> > will tell.
>
> > Where do you live and what are you growing?

I think Paul asks a good question - where you live and what you're
growing. Also, what pruning / trellising structure are you using? VSP?

I'm in the Sierra Foothills in Nor Cal, growing a number of varieties,
about 200 vines total. Right about now, each year, frost is my biggest
worry. I'm not sure why you pruned back to the ground - were the vines
so severely frost bitten that the trunk and crodons were dead wood?
That's a hellacious cold frost. When I get hit hard by frost, as I did
three yeas ago, I end up simply pruning as per normal, although I
sometimes lose spurs if no canes grew in any given spot. But usually
there is a second emergence most everywhere - even if not fruit bearing.

IMHO, I would not try to push more canes than 'normal'. It turns into a
canopy management nightmare. Worse, it screws up your spur patterns for
the following year. Glad to hear that you're dropping fruit still in
the 2nd & 3rd year. Let those vine roots establish first - many growers
take fruit in the 3rd year, but waiting to 4th year seems to me to
produce stronger vines (I've done both).

Speaking of frost - all vines but the Cab are now broken bud, and this
next few weeks is my "worry window". Light frost on the ground today -
nothing to worry about. But this clear cold weather is worrisome now
that the new leaves and canes are pushing out. My May 1st the frost
danger will be past, but I've been hit as late as April 19 in years
past. One of these days will get a sprinkler system out there.

Good luck!



On 2008-04-06 18:10:45 -0700, Dick Heckman > said:

> I have some vines that were hit hard by last year's Easter frost. I
> had to take many back to the ground. So I now have a mix of 2 and 3
> year old vines. Since I'll nip off almost all of the clusters, would
> it be better to allow some more buds than the average recommended buds
> per vine to get a few more leaves out for more nutrients for the vine
> or go with the data for a producing vine? This applies mostly to the 3
> yr vines. I'm not going to let them go wild but I'd like to build them
> up as much as possible.
>
> Dick

Last spring we had the 100 yr frost in this region. All orchard fruit
was lost as far south as Birmingham and scattered below there. We had
two days of mid 20s after a week of mid 80s. All my vines were setting
flowers at the time. Most of the vines had split or had other trunk
damage and it was suggested that I cut any that had trunk damage back
since they were young and the damage would limit future productivity.

I don't expect to ever see similar conditions and the varieties I have
are supposedly suitable for the region. It would seem to me that it
might help the vines to recover if I left more buds than would be a
normal balanced pruning and then did severe cluster thinning very early,
maybe leaving a cluster or two per vine to see how the clusters develop,
that the additional leaf area would add additional food to the vine and
therefore help it catch up. I just want to make sure that I'm doing
nothing stupid. Does it sound reasonable or will I get too much vine
vigor and the vine go crazy?

Paul, I have spurs/canes from last years growth with new buds sprouting.

Dick



AxisOfBeagles wrote:
> I think Paul asks a good question - where you live and what you're
> growing. Also, what pruning / trellising structure are you using? VSP?
>
> I'm in the Sierra Foothills in Nor Cal, growing a number of varieties,
> about 200 vines total. Right about now, each year, frost is my biggest
> worry. I'm not sure why you pruned back to the ground - were the vines
> so severely frost bitten that the trunk and crodons were dead wood?
> That's a hellacious cold frost. When I get hit hard by frost, as I did
> three yeas ago, I end up simply pruning as per normal, although I
> sometimes lose spurs if no canes grew in any given spot. But usually
> there is a second emergence most everywhere - even if not fruit bearing.
>
> IMHO, I would not try to push more canes than 'normal'. It turns into a
> canopy management nightmare. Worse, it screws up your spur patterns for
> the following year. Glad to hear that you're dropping fruit still in the
> 2nd & 3rd year. Let those vine roots establish first - many growers take
> fruit in the 3rd year, but waiting to 4th year seems to me to produce
> stronger vines (I've done both).
>
> Speaking of frost - all vines but the Cab are now broken bud, and this
> next few weeks is my "worry window". Light frost on the ground today -
> nothing to worry about. But this clear cold weather is worrisome now
> that the new leaves and canes are pushing out. My May 1st the frost
> danger will be past, but I've been hit as late as April 19 in years
> past. One of these days will get a sprinkler system out there.
>
> Good luck!
>
>
>
> On 2008-04-06 18:10:45 -0700, Dick Heckman > said:
>
>> I have some vines that were hit hard by last year's Easter frost. I
>> had to take many back to the ground. So I now have a mix of 2 and 3
>> year old vines. Since I'll nip off almost all of the clusters, would
>> it be better to allow some more buds than the average recommended buds
>> per vine to get a few more leaves out for more nutrients for the vine
>> or go with the data for a producing vine? This applies mostly to the
>> 3 yr vines. I'm not going to let them go wild but I'd like to build
>> them up as much as possible.
>>
>> Dick
>
>

On Apr 7, 1:59 pm, Dick Heckman > wrote:
> Last spring we had the 100 yr frost in this region. All orchard fruit
> was lost as far south as Birmingham and scattered below there. We had
> two days of mid 20s after a week of mid 80s. All my vines were setting
> flowers at the time. Most of the vines had split or had other trunk
> damage and it was suggested that I cut any that had trunk damage back
> since they were young and the damage would limit future productivity.
>
> I don't expect to ever see similar conditions and the varieties I have
> are supposedly suitable for the region. It would seem to me that it
> might help the vines to recover if I left more buds than would be a
> normal balanced pruning and then did severe cluster thinning very early,
> maybe leaving a cluster or two per vine to see how the clusters develop,
> that the additional leaf area would add additional food to the vine and
> therefore help it catch up. I just want to make sure that I'm doing
> nothing stupid. Does it sound reasonable or will I get too much vine
> vigor and the vine go crazy?
>
> Paul, I have spurs/canes from last years growth with new buds sprouting.
>
> Dick
>
> AxisOfBeagles wrote:
> > I think Paul asks a good question - where you live and what you're
> > growing. Also, what pruning / trellising structure are you using? VSP?
>
> > I'm in the Sierra Foothills in Nor Cal, growing a number of varieties,
> > about 200 vines total. Right about now, each year, frost is my biggest
> > worry. I'm not sure why you pruned back to the ground - were the vines
> > so severely frost bitten that the trunk and crodons were dead wood?
> > That's a hellacious cold frost. When I get hit hard by frost, as I did
> > three yeas ago, I end up simply pruning as per normal, although I
> > sometimes lose spurs if no canes grew in any given spot. But usually
> > there is a second emergence most everywhere - even if not fruit bearing.
>
> > IMHO, I would not try to push more canes than 'normal'. It turns into a
> > canopy management nightmare. Worse, it screws up your spur patterns for
> > the following year. Glad to hear that you're dropping fruit still in the
> > 2nd & 3rd year. Let those vine roots establish first - many growers take
> > fruit in the 3rd year, but waiting to 4th year seems to me to produce
> > stronger vines (I've done both).
>
> > Speaking of frost - all vines but the Cab are now broken bud, and this
> > next few weeks is my "worry window". Light frost on the ground today -
> > nothing to worry about. But this clear cold weather is worrisome now
> > that the new leaves and canes are pushing out. My May 1st the frost
> > danger will be past, but I've been hit as late as April 19 in years
> > past. One of these days will get a sprinkler system out there.
>
> > Good luck!
>
> > On 2008-04-06 18:10:45 -0700, Dick Heckman > said:
>
> >> I have some vines that were hit hard by last year's Easter frost. I
> >> had to take many back to the ground. So I now have a mix of 2 and 3
> >> year old vines. Since I'll nip off almost all of the clusters, would
> >> it be better to allow some more buds than the average recommended buds
> >> per vine to get a few more leaves out for more nutrients for the vine
> >> or go with the data for a producing vine? This applies mostly to the
> >> 3 yr vines. I'm not going to let them go wild but I'd like to build
> >> them up as much as possible.
>
> >> Dick

I live pretty close to Dick, so I can attest to the devastation of
last years freeze. Bud break was in mid-March and vines had a foot or
more of growth with the plants at full sap. In comparison, this year
I just had bud break this week.

I can't say exactly how many buds that you need to leave, but in order
to maximize your vine growth your best bet is to pour the fertilizer
to them (along with adequate water). There is no reason not to leave
a few bunches per vine this year, if the vines look vigorous and
healthy. I do believe that Cynthiana is known as being slow to start
producing.

Stephen Bailey

Thanks to everybody for your responses. I trimmed a few places that
cleaned the shaggy spots and I'm going with that.

Dick