on fruiting canes developing a series of fruit bearing shoots, as well as
non-fruiting shoots...should non-fruiting shoots generally be pinched off,
or should they be left on for photosynthetic value?

Jeff

jeff wrote:

> on fruiting canes developing a series of fruit bearing shoots, as well as
> non-fruiting shoots...should non-fruiting shoots generally be pinched off,
> or should they be left on for photosynthetic value?
>
> Jeff

Jeff, this depends on a couple things. Think ahead to next year. If you
think you will need these shoots to be spurs for next year - and or to
replace some "antlers" that you currently have for spurs this year, then
don't prune them. If they are not needed for future spurs and they are
excessively shading your fruiting spurs then it would probably be a good
idea to prune them providing you have sufficient follage for generating
carbohydrates needed by the roots and vine.

Thanks for the reply. I've already isolated next years fruiting canes. The
shoots I'm referring to are further along this years fruiting canes, and
won't be needed next year. Even so, I'm leaning along the same lines as your
comment about carbohydrate generation. They don't seem to be providing
excessive shade for my fruit as yet (still early). Keeping them for that
reason seems to out weight the nutrition they rob from my fruiting shoots. I
suppose, if they provide more for the vine than what they take, they are
worth keeping.

Regards
Jeff



"Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
...
> jeff wrote:
>
>> on fruiting canes developing a series of fruit bearing shoots, as well as
>> non-fruiting shoots...should non-fruiting shoots generally be pinched
>> off,
>> or should they be left on for photosynthetic value?
>>
>> Jeff
>
> Jeff, this depends on a couple things. Think ahead to next year. If you
> think you will need these shoots to be spurs for next year - and or to
> replace some "antlers" that you currently have for spurs this year, then
> don't prune them. If they are not needed for future spurs and they are
> excessively shading your fruiting spurs then it would probably be a good
> idea to prune them providing you have sufficient follage for generating
> carbohydrates needed by the roots and vine.

Jeff,

Here's my 2 cents. I assume from what you have already said that you
cane prune. If that is correct and you already have shoots closer to
the middle of the vine picked out for next year, if the unfruitful
shoot is inbetween 2 fruitful shoots on the cane, I would take it off.
There always SEEMS to be pleny of room eary in the growing season BUT
once the laterals start growing it might get a little tight.

Bob

jeff wrote:
> Thanks for the reply. I've already isolated next years fruiting canes. The
> shoots I'm referring to are further along this years fruiting canes, and
> won't be needed next year. Even so, I'm leaning along the same lines as your
> comment about carbohydrate generation. They don't seem to be providing
> excessive shade for my fruit as yet (still early). Keeping them for that
> reason seems to out weight the nutrition they rob from my fruiting shoots. I
> suppose, if they provide more for the vine than what they take, they are
> worth keeping.
>
> Regards
> Jeff
>
>
>
> "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
> ...
> > jeff wrote:
> >
> >> on fruiting canes developing a series of fruit bearing shoots, as well as
> >> non-fruiting shoots...should non-fruiting shoots generally be pinched
> >> off,
> >> or should they be left on for photosynthetic value?
> >>
> >> Jeff
> >
> > Jeff, this depends on a couple things. Think ahead to next year. If you
> > think you will need these shoots to be spurs for next year - and or to
> > replace some "antlers" that you currently have for spurs this year, then
> > don't prune them. If they are not needed for future spurs and they are
> > excessively shading your fruiting spurs then it would probably be a good
> > idea to prune them providing you have sufficient follage for generating
> > carbohydrates needed by the roots and vine.

thanks bob,
Yes, I cane prune. and my spacing is rather tight. that's why I'm toying
with taking them off. on the other hand, Paul mentioned photosynthetic
value, wich I also agree with. Thus, my little dilema. It's still early in
the season, and I'm anticipating vigorous growth, based on what I'm already
getting. I did some canopy management this aft. shoots will grow and
accumulate leaves, but I'm reluctant to remove foliage that already exists.

Jeff


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Jeff,
>
> Here's my 2 cents. I assume from what you have already said that you
> cane prune. If that is correct and you already have shoots closer to
> the middle of the vine picked out for next year, if the unfruitful
> shoot is inbetween 2 fruitful shoots on the cane, I would take it off.
> There always SEEMS to be pleny of room eary in the growing season BUT
> once the laterals start growing it might get a little tight.
>
> Bob
>
> jeff wrote:
>> Thanks for the reply. I've already isolated next years fruiting canes.
>> The
>> shoots I'm referring to are further along this years fruiting canes, and
>> won't be needed next year. Even so, I'm leaning along the same lines as
>> your
>> comment about carbohydrate generation. They don't seem to be providing
>> excessive shade for my fruit as yet (still early). Keeping them for that
>> reason seems to out weight the nutrition they rob from my fruiting
>> shoots. I
>> suppose, if they provide more for the vine than what they take, they are
>> worth keeping.
>>
>> Regards
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>> "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > jeff wrote:
>> >
>> >> on fruiting canes developing a series of fruit bearing shoots, as well
>> >> as
>> >> non-fruiting shoots...should non-fruiting shoots generally be pinched
>> >> off,
>> >> or should they be left on for photosynthetic value?
>> >>
>> >> Jeff
>> >
>> > Jeff, this depends on a couple things. Think ahead to next year. If
>> > you
>> > think you will need these shoots to be spurs for next year - and or to
>> > replace some "antlers" that you currently have for spurs this year,
>> > then
>> > don't prune them. If they are not needed for future spurs and they are
>> > excessively shading your fruiting spurs then it would probably be a
>> > good
>> > idea to prune them providing you have sufficient follage for generating
>> > carbohydrates needed by the roots and vine.
>

Remove them. You'll have PLENTY of foilage. Right now those shoots are
a DRAIN on the plant as they grow. Come August you won't even remember
they were there.


Bob

Jeff,

I might have been a little curt last post so I apologize in advance.
It's up to you BUT I've found that when I'm that same sort of dilema
the best course of action is to remove them especially if your canopy
already looks tight. If the leaves of the non-fruitful shoots shade the
fruitful ones they're a drag on the plant not a plus.


Bob

thanks bob,
Yes, I cane prune. and my spacing is rather tight. that's why I'm toying
with taking them off. on the other hand, Paul mentioned photosynthetic
value, wich I also agree with. Thus, my little dilema. It's still early in
the season, and I'm anticipating vigorous growth, based on what I'm already
getting. I did some canopy management this aft. shoots will grow and
accumulate leaves, but I'm reluctant to remove foliage that already exists.

Jeff


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Jeff,
>
> Here's my 2 cents. I assume from what you have already said that you
> cane prune. If that is correct and you already have shoots closer to
> the middle of the vine picked out for next year, if the unfruitful
> shoot is inbetween 2 fruitful shoots on the cane, I would take it off.
> There always SEEMS to be pleny of room eary in the growing season BUT
> once the laterals start growing it might get a little tight.
>
> Bob
>
> jeff wrote:
>> Thanks for the reply. I've already isolated next years fruiting canes.
>> The
>> shoots I'm referring to are further along this years fruiting canes, and
>> won't be needed next year. Even so, I'm leaning along the same lines as
>> your
>> comment about carbohydrate generation. They don't seem to be providing
>> excessive shade for my fruit as yet (still early). Keeping them for that
>> reason seems to out weight the nutrition they rob from my fruiting
>> shoots. I
>> suppose, if they provide more for the vine than what they take, they are
>> worth keeping.
>>
>> Regards
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>> "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > jeff wrote:
>> >
>> >> on fruiting canes developing a series of fruit bearing shoots, as well
>> >> as
>> >> non-fruiting shoots...should non-fruiting shoots generally be pinched
>> >> off,
>> >> or should they be left on for photosynthetic value?
>> >>
>> >> Jeff
>> >
>> > Jeff, this depends on a couple things. Think ahead to next year. If
>> > you
>> > think you will need these shoots to be spurs for next year - and or to
>> > replace some "antlers" that you currently have for spurs this year,
>> > then
>> > don't prune them. If they are not needed for future spurs and they are
>> > excessively shading your fruiting spurs then it would probably be a
>> > good
>> > idea to prune them providing you have sufficient follage for generating
>> > carbohydrates needed by the roots and vine.
>

Jeff,

Here's my 2 cents. I assume from what you have already said that you
cane prune. If that is correct and you already have shoots closer to
the middle of the vine picked out for next year, if the unfruitful
shoot is inbetween 2 fruitful shoots on the cane, I would take it off.
There always SEEMS to be pleny of room eary in the growing season BUT
once the laterals start growing it might get a little tight.

Bob

jeff wrote:
> Thanks for the reply. I've already isolated next years fruiting canes. The
> shoots I'm referring to are further along this years fruiting canes, and
> won't be needed next year. Even so, I'm leaning along the same lines as your
> comment about carbohydrate generation. They don't seem to be providing
> excessive shade for my fruit as yet (still early). Keeping them for that
> reason seems to out weight the nutrition they rob from my fruiting shoots. I
> suppose, if they provide more for the vine than what they take, they are
> worth keeping.
>
> Regards
> Jeff
>
>
>
> "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
> ...
> > jeff wrote:
> >
> >> on fruiting canes developing a series of fruit bearing shoots, as well as
> >> non-fruiting shoots...should non-fruiting shoots generally be pinched
> >> off,
> >> or should they be left on for photosynthetic value?
> >>
> >> Jeff
> >
> > Jeff, this depends on a couple things. Think ahead to next year. If you
> > think you will need these shoots to be spurs for next year - and or to
> > replace some "antlers" that you currently have for spurs this year, then
> > don't prune them. If they are not needed for future spurs and they are
> > excessively shading your fruiting spurs then it would probably be a good
> > idea to prune them providing you have sufficient follage for generating
> > carbohydrates needed by the roots and vine.

Jeff et all

First point: This is one of the best discussions I have seen on this
News group, vis-a-vis pruning, canes, spurs, growth etc. Second: I
am glad to see that there are many who have questions related to vigor
and growth this year, as we have been having amazing growth here on
the Central Coast of California. We have the same questions.
Interestingly, as we visit vineyards in the area, it seems that all
theories of viticulture abound. Perhaps there are few "right" or
"wrong" answers.

We have internodal distances of 6 and 8 inches on the new canes!
(Spur distance is 4-5 inches) We barely finish pruning the 15th row,
and it seems as if the 1st row needs attention again. Usually we keep
our trunks clean of any kind of growth so that the energy is targeted
at the new fruit and the leaves necessary to nourish them. This year
we have left some trunk growth on the plants longer than in the past
in an attempt to slow them down a bit, and do removing them, but not
as diligently as we have in our previous 6 growing seasons.

It has been a very wet year here, and the soil is still damp a few
inches below the surface. We have had to leaf and lateral thin twice
already just to be able to see the fruit! Someone noted that taking
off leaves and laterals now was not a problem as there would be plenty
of growth to come. Absolutely our case and belief. While admittedly
a bit lax on the trunks this year, we have been a bit more aggressive
on the canopy side this year, as we see how fast the vines are
growing. The fruit crop is more plentiful than normal, and at this
point we are letting it grow to stress the plants a bit. We will drop
some later.

In all, this has been a schizophrenic growing season for us thus far,
and it has only just begun!

Regards

Jerry





"jeff" > wrote in message
...
> on fruiting canes developing a series of fruit bearing shoots, as
> well as non-fruiting shoots...should non-fruiting shoots generally
> be pinched off, or should they be left on for photosynthetic value?
>
> Jeff
>

Jerry,

Well I'm glad to see I'm not the only one with this pruning challenge. I
feel I might be beginning to get a picture now, regarding what is generally
allowed to remain and what is not. As you say, we are so early into the
season, whatever is removed at this stage has several weeks to grow back in.
All in all, I'm perceiving shoot removal is a judgement call, pertaining to
varietal, location, training system and several other variables. I guess one
has to simply get in sync with his own vines.

Our growing season here in southern ontario has also been schizophrenic.
Lengthy amounts of sun and warmth, followed by a rain, followed by mixed sun
and cloud, and the cycle starts over again.

I made a judgement call and pruned today, foreseeing the potential
congestion of vegetation as the season gets into full swing. I've cleaned my
trunks and the base of my canes as well, except for lower shoots I plan to
grow into next years fruiting canes (I cane prune, to keep things simple for
the time being).

Strangely, a few of my vines are not fruiting at all, for reasons I have not
come to terms with yet. I have removed quite a bit of vegetation from them,
save choice shoots for next year.

I'll wait and see what happens to the vineyard next, and make a decision
based on how my vines react to what I did today.

All the best for your own vines, and growing season

Jeff

"Jerry DeAngelis" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Jeff et all
>
> First point: This is one of the best discussions I have seen on this News
> group, vis-a-vis pruning, canes, spurs, growth etc. Second: I am glad to
> see that there are many who have questions related to vigor and growth
> this year, as we have been having amazing growth here on the Central Coast
> of California. We have the same questions. Interestingly, as we visit
> vineyards in the area, it seems that all theories of viticulture abound.
> Perhaps there are few "right" or "wrong" answers.
>
> We have internodal distances of 6 and 8 inches on the new canes! (Spur
> distance is 4-5 inches) We barely finish pruning the 15th row, and it
> seems as if the 1st row needs attention again. Usually we keep our trunks
> clean of any kind of growth so that the energy is targeted at the new
> fruit and the leaves necessary to nourish them. This year we have left
> some trunk growth on the plants longer than in the past in an attempt to
> slow them down a bit, and do removing them, but not as diligently as we
> have in our previous 6 growing seasons.
>
> It has been a very wet year here, and the soil is still damp a few inches
> below the surface. We have had to leaf and lateral thin twice already
> just to be able to see the fruit! Someone noted that taking off leaves
> and laterals now was not a problem as there would be plenty of growth to
> come. Absolutely our case and belief. While admittedly a bit lax on the
> trunks this year, we have been a bit more aggressive on the canopy side
> this year, as we see how fast the vines are growing. The fruit crop is
> more plentiful than normal, and at this point we are letting it grow to
> stress the plants a bit. We will drop some later.
>
> In all, this has been a schizophrenic growing season for us thus far, and
> it has only just begun!
>
> Regards
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
>
> "jeff" > wrote in message
> ...
>> on fruiting canes developing a series of fruit bearing shoots, as well as
>> non-fruiting shoots...should non-fruiting shoots generally be pinched
>> off, or should they be left on for photosynthetic value?
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>
>

Hi Jeff
Hydroponic viticulture....wow!! For some reason this concept has never
occurred to me but what an interesting idea. Please keep letting us
know how this goes please Jeff. From the photos it seems you're doing
things pretty much as they should be, the vines look healthy. Last
season I had areas of the vineyard I was managing that had more non
fruiting shoots than other parts. After much discussion and
observation we decided it may well have been that they were lacking
some nutrients due to the soil type in that part of the vineyard. It
seems to me though that being hydroponically grown all your vines would
receive the same nutrients as the others, so perhaps for some reason
they are a little more stressed? Just a thought.
Are you keeping notes on what you are doing with the vines each time
you work on them? also, if you're not sure which is the best way to
treat them, then perhaps having a control group to compare with might
be a good idea. Even treating one vine differently may be enough to do
comparisons.
My thoughts on your shoot thinning are that opening up the canopy is a
good thing, especially if you have high humidty. It will help control
and show any powdery or botrytis problems.

Jerry,
Sounds like the season you are having is the season we've just finished
here in New Zealand. It was probably one of the most unpredictable
seasons we've every had. Taught us all a lot I think and made us think
out of the square, just as you are doing ie not bud rubbing the trunks
as often or as thoroughly as you may have other seasons. We shoot
thinned and then had to come through and lateral thin several times on
some of our blocks. We still had powdery mildew problems and now feel
we should have been more agressive with the lateral thinning. Next year
we intend to be but it will probably be a dry year with less growth,
just because we are prepared for the opposite.
This is a great discussion by the way. Always interesting to hear what
other viticulturists are up to. )

"kiwizoom" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Hi Jeff
> Are you keeping notes on what you are doing with the vines each time
> you work on them?

I've been keeping detailed notes and daily records of weather, pH, growth
rate, hours of sunshine, spray schedules, as well as regular dated photos of
vine development. It's become an obsession.

> My thoughts on your shoot thinning are that opening up the canopy is a
> good thing, especially if you have high humidty. It will help control
> and show any powdery or botrytis problems.

Yes, I did thin a lot. Fact is, I didn't do a lot of winter/spring pruning,
until I knew how my buds were going to behave.

I will keep the group posted.

Thanks for your input.

Jeff

Jeff,

How many canes are you allowing for each vine??? How much fruit will
you leave on each plant??? BTW, obviously I think you made the right
decision about the non-fruiting shoots. With a vertical fruiting cane,
are you seeing 'even" growth from all your shoots on the cane???


Bob


Bob

Jeff,

Couple more questions.

1. Don't you bring your vines inside over the winter??? If so I would
assume most of the buds should have survived.

2. The non-fruitful vines is an interesting issue. Hmmm........

3. Did you use the hot-house to get these things going this spring????
I would assume hot-houses are like BIG grow tubes and would assume that
is why your vines are so ahead of everyone elses and so vigorous. I
personnally don't use grow tubes and it would be interesting to know
how the vines respond when you take the hot-house down. I would assume
the vigor would slow until the natural environment catches up to the
climate of the hot house. I wouldn't assume a linear vigor pattern
because of that.


Bob