I received some very interesting advice a month or two ago,concerning
the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained in the Double Guyot
method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two leaves earlier when the
canopy was in full growth,and since the beginning of August have left
more on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
to help ripening.
I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening well.My
mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or whites.However one
of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of weeks before harvest,which
will be early this year in England.Our temperatures have not been
great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures have
not fallen below 15C.I live about 120 miles from my vines,so have to
make a judgement when to visit.The average temperature (24hr average)
at present is about 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of
thumb to estimate the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr)
temperature.

I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there has
been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they have all
fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this is the same
with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is crucial,and with a large
crop,it is important to maintain a maximum leaf area,consistent with
keeping protection against powdery mildew-good air flow and spray
coverage.

I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of garden
compost around each vine in the early spring period.I had not done
this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous enough in our
cool climate.However,although the vigour has increased somewhat
further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with little powdery mildew,
and I had a very good flower set.I think the compost keeps the soil
more moist,thus avoiding a major powdery mildew attack in very dry
spells.

Michael

"I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
ripening fruit."

"I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
to help ripening."

I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling leaves
doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The vine takes time
to readjust it's physiology to compensate for the lost leaves. In an
environment like yours you need all the leaves you can get. People who
grow grapes in California or an area with more sunshine and heat have
much more room to hack up the vines, you don't.

"

On Aug 28, 8:36*am, michael > wrote:
> I received some very interesting advice a month or two ago,concerning
> the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained in the Double Guyot
> method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two leaves earlier when the
> canopy was in full growth,and since the beginning of August have left
> more on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> to help ripening.
> I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening well.My
> mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
> with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or whites.However one
> of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of weeks before harvest,which
> will be early this year in England.Our temperatures have not been
> great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures have
> not fallen below 15C.I live about 120 miles from my vines,so have to
> make a judgement when to visit.The average temperature (24hr average)
> at present is about 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of
> thumb to estimate the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr)
> temperature.
>
> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
> produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there has
> been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they have all
> fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this is the same
> with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is crucial,and with a large
> crop,it is important to maintain a maximum leaf area,consistent with
> keeping protection against powdery mildew-good air flow and spray
> coverage.
>
> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of garden
> compost around each vine in the early spring period.I had not done
> this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous enough in our
> cool climate.However,although the vigour has increased somewhat
> further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with little powdery mildew,
> and I had a very good flower set.I think the compost keeps the soil
> more moist,thus avoiding a major powdery mildew attack in very dry
> spells.
>
> Michael

Michael,

Glad you decided to mulch. You will be happy with the results. Plant
roots can't get at any nutrients unless the soil is moist. I probably
gained 2 brix the first year I mulched. The vines are just healthier
and produce better. If you think about it, grapes are the only plant
on the planet where the growers think mulch is some sort of poisionous
addition. It's pretty hilarious. Anyway, a plant is a plant and if it
makes my tomatoes and peaches sweeter than it's only logical it would
make my grapes sweeter, and it does. My best advice is: never stop
observing.


On Aug 28, 8:36*am, michael > wrote:
> I received some very interesting advice a month or two ago,concerning
> the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained in the Double Guyot
> method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two leaves earlier when the
> canopy was in full growth,and since the beginning of August have left
> more on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> to help ripening.
> I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening well.My
> mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
> with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or whites.However one
> of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of weeks before harvest,which
> will be early this year in England.Our temperatures have not been
> great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures have
> not fallen below 15C.I live about 120 miles from my vines,so have to
> make a judgement when to visit.The average temperature (24hr average)
> at present is about 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of
> thumb to estimate the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr)
> temperature.
>
> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
> produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there has
> been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they have all
> fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this is the same
> with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is crucial,and with a large
> crop,it is important to maintain a maximum leaf area,consistent with
> keeping protection against powdery mildew-good air flow and spray
> coverage.
>
> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of garden
> compost around each vine in the early spring period.I had not done
> this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous enough in our
> cool climate.However,although the vigour has increased somewhat
> further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with little powdery mildew,
> and I had a very good flower set.I think the compost keeps the soil
> more moist,thus avoiding a major powdery mildew attack in very dry
> spells.
>
> Michael

wrote:

> "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> ripening fruit."
>
> "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> to help ripening."
>
> I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling leaves
> doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The vine takes time
> to readjust it's physiology to compensate for the lost leaves. In an
> environment like yours you need all the leaves you can get. People who
> grow grapes in California or an area with more sunshine and heat have
> much more room to hack up the vines, you don't.

Here is an excellent article on the subject.
Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments but also note
the authors comments about situations of extreme vigor.

http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457

Paul

>> On Aug 28, 8:36Â*am, michael > wrote:
>> I received some very interesting advice a month or two ago,concerning
>> the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained in the Double Guyot
>> method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two leaves earlier when the
>> canopy was in full growth,and since the beginning of August have left
>> more on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
>> to help ripening.
>> I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening well.My
>> mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
>> with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or whites.However one
>> of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of weeks before harvest,which
>> will be early this year in England.Our temperatures have not been
>> great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures have
>> not fallen below 15C.I live about 120 miles from my vines,so have to
>> make a judgement when to visit.The average temperature (24hr average)
>> at present is about 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of
>> thumb to estimate the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr)
>> temperature.
>>
>> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
>> ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
>> produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there has
>> been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they have all
>> fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this is the same
>> with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is crucial,and with a large
>> crop,it is important to maintain a maximum leaf area,consistent with
>> keeping protection against powdery mildew-good air flow and spray
>> coverage.
>>
>> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of garden
>> compost around each vine in the early spring period.I had not done
>> this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous enough in our
>> cool climate.However,although the vigour has increased somewhat
>> further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with little powdery mildew,
>> and I had a very good flower set.I think the compost keeps the soil
>> more moist,thus avoiding a major powdery mildew attack in very dry
>> spells.
>>
>> Michael

On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> wrote:
> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> > *ripening fruit."
>
> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> > *to help ripening."
>
> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling leaves
> > doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The vine takes time
> > to readjust it's physiology to compensate for the lost leaves. In an
> > environment like yours you need alent from the leaves you can get. People who
> > grow grapes in California or an area with more sunshine and heat have
> > much more room to hack up the vines, you don't.
>
> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments but also note
> the authors comments about situations of extreme vigor.
>
> http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> >> On Aug 28, 8:36*am, michael > wrote:
> >> I received some very interesting advice a month or two ago,concerning
> >> the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained in the Double Guyot
> >> method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two leaves earlier when the
> >> canopy was in full growth,and since the beginning of August have left
> >> more on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> >> to help ripening.
> >> I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening well.My
> >> mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
> >> with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or whites.However one
> >> of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of weeks before harvest,which
> >> will be early this year in England.Our temperatures have not been
> >> great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures have
> >> not fallen below 15C.I live about 120 miles from my vines,so have to
> >> make a judgement when to visit.The average temperature (24hr average)
> >> at present is about 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of
> >> thumb to estimate the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr)
> >> temperature.
>
> >> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> >> ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
> >> produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there has
> >> been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they have all
> >> fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this is the same
> >> with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is crucial,and with a large
> >> crop,it is important to maintain a maximum leaf area,consistent with
> >> keeping protection against powdery mildew-good air flow and spray
> >> coverage.
>
> >> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of garden
> >> compost around each vine in the early spring period.I had not done
> >> this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous enough in our
> >> cool climate.However,although the vigour has increased somewhat
> >> further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with little powdery mildew,
> >> and I had a very good flower set.I think the compost keeps the soil
> >> more moist,thus avoiding a major powdery mildew attack in very dry
> >> spells.
>
> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks for those comments.

The article you gave,Paul, is extremely interesting,and seems to deal
exactly with my problems.I will study the article in more detail,but
the comments on timing of removal of laterals seem to suggest that it
is best to remove (or prune to three leaves) most of these during the
early flowering and fruit set period,but leave them after veraison
into the ripening phase.I think this is something like my practice.I
find that I have to remove the laterals in June,otherwise the canopy
becomes a completely tangled mess (especially this year after using
compost)-but this is the period of flowering and fruitset,so
presumably fine.Later from mid August,the vigour of the canopy slows
down,and more laterals can be left.However I still find myself hedging
the top of the canopy,which creates new growth rapidly-if I do not do
this the canopy can become unstable in quite light winds we have in
September/October.

I was also very interested in the comment from doubi...,that using
compost can add 2 Brix to the juice.I have certainly noted how much
healthier my vines are this year-and more vigorous!! I have use
garden compost plus some added fish blood and bone.Is it sensible to
add compost each year,and in your experience,when is the best time to
add it?

Thanks again,Michael

michael wrote:

> On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
>> > ripening fruit."
>>
>> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
>> > to help ripening."
>>
>> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling leaves
>> > doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The vine takes time
>> > to readjust it's physiology to compensate for the lost leaves. In an
>> > environment like yours you need alent from the leaves you can get.
>> > People who grow grapes in California or an area with more sunshine and
>> > heat have much more room to hack up the vines, you don't.
>>
>> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
>> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments but also note
>> the authors comments about situations of extreme vigor.
>>
>> http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>> >> On Aug 28, 8:36Â*am, michael > wrote:
>> >> I received some very interesting advice a month or two ago,concerning
>> >> the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained in the Double Guyot
>> >> method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two leaves earlier when the
>> >> canopy was in full growth,and since the beginning of August have left
>> >> more on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
>> >> to help ripening.
>> >> I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening well.My
>> >> mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
>> >> with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or whites.However one
>> >> of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of weeks before harvest,which
>> >> will be early this year in England.Our temperatures have not been
>> >> great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures have
>> >> not fallen below 15C.I live about 120 miles from my vines,so have to
>> >> make a judgement when to visit.The average temperature (24hr average)
>> >> at present is about 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of
>> >> thumb to estimate the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr)
>> >> temperature.
>>
>> >> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
>> >> ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
>> >> produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there has
>> >> been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they have all
>> >> fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this is the same
>> >> with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is crucial,and with a large
>> >> crop,it is important to maintain a maximum leaf area,consistent with
>> >> keeping protection against powdery mildew-good air flow and spray
>> >> coverage.
>>
>> >> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of garden
>> >> compost around each vine in the early spring period.I had not done
>> >> this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous enough in our
>> >> cool climate.However,although the vigour has increased somewhat
>> >> further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with little powdery mildew,
>> >> and I had a very good flower set.I think the compost keeps the soil
>> >> more moist,thus avoiding a major powdery mildew attack in very dry
>> >> spells.
>>
>> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Thanks for those comments.
>
> The article you gave,Paul, is extremely interesting,and seems to deal
> exactly with my problems.I will study the article in more detail,but
> the comments on timing of removal of laterals seem to suggest that it
> is best to remove (or prune to three leaves) most of these during the
> early flowering and fruit set period,but leave them after veraison
> into the ripening phase.I think this is something like my practice.I
> find that I have to remove the laterals in June,otherwise the canopy
> becomes a completely tangled mess (especially this year after using
> compost)-but this is the period of flowering and fruitset,so
> presumably fine.Later from mid August,the vigour of the canopy slows
> down,and more laterals can be left.However I still find myself hedging
> the top of the canopy,which creates new growth rapidly-if I do not do
> this the canopy can become unstable in quite light winds we have in
> September/October.
>
> I was also very interested in the comment from doubi...,that using
> compost can add 2 Brix to the juice.I have certainly noted how much
> healthier my vines are this year-and more vigorous!! I have use
> garden compost plus some added fish blood and bone.Is it sensible to
> add compost each year,and in your experience,when is the best time to
> add it?
>
> Thanks again,Michael

I seriously doubt than adding compost will add 2 brix. I would like to see
doubi, or whatever his name actually is, point us to a literature cite.

This flies in the face of research that indicates that when you already have
vigorous growth, you do not further your problem. I think most research
would indicate that increased vegetative growth has a negative effect on
grape berry maturity.

In my opinion and experience, adding brix is done by increasing growing
degree days, hours of sunlight or cropping your vines so that you do not
over crop.

On 3 Sep, 02:50, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> michael wrote:
> > On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> >> > ripening fruit."
>
> >> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> >> > to help ripening."
>
> >> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling leaves
> >> > doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The vine takes time
> >> > to readjust it's physiology to compensate for the lost leaves. In an
> >> > environment like yours you need alent from *the leaves you can get..
> >> > People who grow grapes in California or an area with more sunshine and
> >> > heat have much more room to hack up the vines, you don't.
>
> >> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
> >> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments but also note
> >> the authors comments about situations of extreme vigor.
>
> >>http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>
> >> Paul
>
> >> >> On Aug 28, 8:36*am, michael > wrote:
> >> >> I received some very interesting advice a month or two ago,concerning
> >> >> the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained in the Double Guyot
> >> >> method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two leaves earlier when the
> >> >> canopy was in full growth,and since the beginning of August have left
> >> >> more on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> >> >> to help ripening.
> >> >> I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening well.My
> >> >> mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
> >> >> with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or whites.However one
> >> >> of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of weeks before harvest,which
> >> >> will be early this year in England.Our temperatures have not been
> >> >> great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures have
> >> >> not fallen below 15C.I live about 120 miles from my vines,so have to
> >> >> make a judgement when to visit.The average temperature (24hr average)
> >> >> at present is about 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of
> >> >> thumb to estimate the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr)
> >> >> temperature.
>
> >> >> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> >> >> ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
> >> >> produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there has
> >> >> been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they have all
> >> >> fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this is the same
> >> >> with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is crucial,and with a large
> >> >> crop,it is important to maintain a maximum leaf area,consistent with
> >> >> keeping protection against powdery mildew-good air flow and spray
> >> >> coverage.
>
> >> >> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of garden
> >> >> compost around each vine in the early spring period.I had not done
> >> >> this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous enough in our
> >> >> cool climate.However,although the vigour has increased somewhat
> >> >> further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with little powdery mildew,
> >> >> and I had a very good flower set.I think the compost keeps the soil
> >> >> more moist,thus avoiding a major powdery mildew attack in very dry
> >> >> spells.
>
> >> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Thanks for those comments.
>
> > The article you gave,Paul, is extremely interesting,and seems to deal
> > exactly with my problems.I will study the article in more detail,but
> > the comments on timing of removal of laterals seem to suggest that it
> > is best to remove (or prune to three leaves) most of *these during the
> > early flowering and fruit set period,but leave them after veraison
> > into the ripening phase.I think this is something like my practice.I
> > find that I have to remove the laterals in June,otherwise the canopy
> > becomes a completely tangled mess (especially this year after using
> > compost)-but this is the period of flowering and fruitset,so
> > presumably fine.Later from mid August,the vigour of the canopy slows
> > down,and more laterals can be left.However I still find myself hedging
> > the top of the canopy,which creates new growth rapidly-if I do not do
> > this the canopy can become unstable in quite light winds we have in
> > September/October.
>
> > I was also very interested in the comment from doubi...,that using
> > compost can add 2 Brix to the juice.I have certainly noted how much
> > healthier my vines are this year-and more vigorous!! *I have use
> > garden compost plus some added fish blood and bone.Is it sensible to
> > add compost each year,and in your experience,when is the best time to
> > add it?
>
> > Thanks again,Michael
>
> I seriously doubt than adding compost will add 2 brix. *I would like to see
> doubi, or whatever his name actually is, point us to a literature cite.
>
> This flies in the face of research that indicates that when you already have
> vigorous growth, you do not further your problem. *I think most research
> would indicate that increased vegetative growth has a negative effect on
> grape berry maturity.
>
> In my opinion and experience, adding brix is done by increasing growing
> degree days, hours of sunlight or cropping your vines so that you do not
> over crop.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi again,
Does the ripening process depend on hours of sunlight
or degree-days.This year my vines are cropping earlier than
normal.There is also a very heavy crop,probably due to the excellent
very warm June we had here.Since June the weather here has been
mediocre during the day with average or slightly below average
temperatures.However the overnight temperatures have been very
consistently in the 14-17C minimum range ,which is well above average
for England.So I am postulating that it is the number of degree-days
(above 10C I think) over a 24 hr period which is ripening my grapes
early.There certainly has been a shortage of sunshine this year.
On the compost question,I thought that it was always useful to add
compost around the vine (maybe without any added fertiliser
annually),to avoid the vines roots drying out during a very dry
spell,which would encourage powdery mildew.My vines are on a s-facing
slope on dry limestone soil,so always have a tendency to dry out.
Several books on vineyard management do encourage the use of
compost,but maybe my vines are vigorous enough.
Best regards
Michael

Micheal,

Always trust your eyes and keep observing. Paul, without any proof, is
saying that what I have observed and what you have have observed
couldn't be true. It sounds like in your case, mulching has helped
tremendously. There are many reasons for mulch and the main reason is
that a healthy vine is a good vine. It's as simple as that.



> On 3 Sep, 02:50, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > michael wrote:
> > > On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> > >> > ripening fruit."
>
> > >> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> > >> > to help ripening."
>
> > >> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling leaves
> > >> > doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The vine takes time
> > >> > to readjust it's physiology to compensate for the lost leaves. In an
> > >> > environment like yours you need alent from *the leaves you can get.
> > >> > People who grow grapes in California or an area with more sunshine and
> > >> > heat have much more room to hack up the vines, you don't.
>
> > >> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
> > >> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments but also note
> > >> the authors comments about situations of extreme vigor.
>
> > >>http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>
> > >> Paul
>
> > >> >> On Aug 28, 8:36*am, michael > wrote:
> > >> >> I received some very interesting advice a month or two ago,concerning
> > >> >> the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained in the Double Guyot
> > >> >> method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two leaves earlier when the
> > >> >> canopy was in full growth,and since the beginning of August have left
> > >> >> more on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> > >> >> to help ripening.
> > >> >> I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening well.My
> > >> >> mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
> > >> >> with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or whites.However one
> > >> >> of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of weeks before harvest,which
> > >> >> will be early this year in England.Our temperatures have not been
> > >> >> great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures have
> > >> >> not fallen below 15C.I live about 120 miles from my vines,so have to
> > >> >> make a judgement when to visit.The average temperature (24hr average)
> > >> >> at present is about 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of
> > >> >> thumb to estimate the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr)
> > >> >> temperature.
>
> > >> >> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> > >> >> ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
> > >> >> produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there has
> > >> >> been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they have all
> > >> >> fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this is the same
> > >> >> with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is crucial,and with a large
> > >> >> crop,it is important to maintain a maximum leaf area,consistent with
> > >> >> keeping protection against powdery mildew-good air flow and spray
> > >> >> coverage.
>
> > >> >> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of garden
> > >> >> compost around each vine in the early spring period.I had not done
> > >> >> this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous enough in our
> > >> >> cool climate.However,although the vigour has increased somewhat
> > >> >> further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with little powdery mildew,
> > >> >> and I had a very good flower set.I think the compost keeps the soil
> > >> >> more moist,thus avoiding a major powdery mildew attack in very dry
> > >> >> spells.
>
> > >> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Thanks for those comments.
>
> > > The article you gave,Paul, is extremely interesting,and seems to deal
> > > exactly with my problems.I will study the article in more detail,but
> > > the comments on timing of removal of laterals seem to suggest that it
> > > is best to remove (or prune to three leaves) most of *these during the
> > > early flowering and fruit set period,but leave them after veraison
> > > into the ripening phase.I think this is something like my practice.I
> > > find that I have to remove the laterals in June,otherwise the canopy
> > > becomes a completely tangled mess (especially this year after using
> > > compost)-but this is the period of flowering and fruitset,so
> > > presumably fine.Later from mid August,the vigour of the canopy slows
> > > down,and more laterals can be left.However I still find myself hedging
> > > the top of the canopy,which creates new growth rapidly-if I do not do
> > > this the canopy can become unstable in quite light winds we have in
> > > September/October.
>
> > > I was also very interested in the comment from doubi...,that using
> > > compost can add 2 Brix to the juice.I have certainly noted how much
> > > healthier my vines are this year-and more vigorous!! *I have use
> > > garden compost plus some added fish blood and bone.Is it sensible to
> > > add compost each year,and in your experience,when is the best time to
> > > add it?
>
> > > Thanks again,Michael
>
> > I seriously doubt than adding compost will add 2 brix. *I would like to see
> > doubi, or whatever his name actually is, point us to a literature cite.
>
> > This flies in the face of research that indicates that when you already have
> > vigorous growth, you do not further your problem. *I think most research
> > would indicate that increased vegetative growth has a negative effect on
> > grape berry maturity.
>
> > In my opinion and experience, adding brix is done by increasing growing
> > degree days, hours of sunlight or cropping your vines so that you do not
> > over crop.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Hi again,
> * * * * * * * *Does the ripening process depend on hours of sunlight
> or degree-days.This year my vines are cropping earlier than
> normal.There is also a very heavy crop,probably due to the excellent
> very warm June we had here.Since June the weather here has been
> mediocre during the day with average or slightly below average
> temperatures.However the overnight temperatures have been very
> consistently in the 14-17C minimum range ,which is well above average
> for England.So I am postulating that it is the number of degree-days
> (above 10C I think) over a 24 hr period which is ripening my grapes
> early.There certainly has been a shortage of sunshine this year.
> On the compost question,I thought that it was always useful to add
> compost around the vine (maybe without any added fertiliser
> annually),to avoid the vines roots drying out during a very dry
> spell,which would encourage powdery mildew.My vines are on a s-facing
> slope on dry limestone soil,so always have a tendency to dry out.
> Several books on vineyard management do encourage the use of
> compost,but maybe my vines are vigorous enough.
> Best regards
> Michael

On Sep 2, 8:50*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> michael wrote:
> > On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> >> > ripening fruit."
>
> >> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> >> > to help ripening."
>
> >> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling leaves
> >> > doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The vine takes time
> >> > to readjust it's physiology to compensate for the lost leaves. In an
> >> > environment like yours you need alent from *the leaves you can get..
> >> > People who grow grapes in California or an area with more sunshine and
> >> > heat have much more room to hack up the vines, you don't.
>
> >> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
> >> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments but also note
> >> the authors comments about situations of extreme vigor.
>
> >>http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>
> >> Paul
>
> >> >> On Aug 28, 8:36*am, michael > wrote:
> >> >> I received some very interesting advice a month or two ago,concerning
> >> >> the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained in the Double Guyot
> >> >> method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two leaves earlier when the
> >> >> canopy was in full growth,and since the beginning of August have left
> >> >> more on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> >> >> to help ripening.
> >> >> I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening well.My
> >> >> mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
> >> >> with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or whites.However one
> >> >> of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of weeks before harvest,which
> >> >> will be early this year in England.Our temperatures have not been
> >> >> great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures have
> >> >> not fallen below 15C.I live about 120 miles from my vines,so have to
> >> >> make a judgement when to visit.The average temperature (24hr average)
> >> >> at present is about 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of
> >> >> thumb to estimate the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr)
> >> >> temperature.
>
> >> >> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> >> >> ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
> >> >> produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there has
> >> >> been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they have all
> >> >> fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this is the same
> >> >> with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is crucial,and with a large
> >> >> crop,it is important to maintain a maximum leaf area,consistent with
> >> >> keeping protection against powdery mildew-good air flow and spray
> >> >> coverage.
>
> >> >> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of garden
> >> >> compost around each vine in the early spring period.I had not done
> >> >> this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous enough in our
> >> >> cool climate.However,although the vigour has increased somewhat
> >> >> further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with little powdery mildew,
> >> >> and I had a very good flower set.I think the compost keeps the soil
> >> >> more moist,thus avoiding a major powdery mildew attack in very dry
> >> >> spells.
>
> >> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Thanks for those comments.
>
> > The article you gave,Paul, is extremely interesting,and seems to deal
> > exactly with my problems.I will study the article in more detail,but
> > the comments on timing of removal of laterals seem to suggest that it
> > is best to remove (or prune to three leaves) most of *these during the
> > early flowering and fruit set period,but leave them after veraison
> > into the ripening phase.I think this is something like my practice.I
> > find that I have to remove the laterals in June,otherwise the canopy
> > becomes a completely tangled mess (especially this year after using
> > compost)-but this is the period of flowering and fruitset,so
> > presumably fine.Later from mid August,the vigour of the canopy slows
> > down,and more laterals can be left.However I still find myself hedging
> > the top of the canopy,which creates new growth rapidly-if I do not do
> > this the canopy can become unstable in quite light winds we have in
> > September/October.
>
> > I was also very interested in the comment from doubi...,that using
> > compost can add 2 Brix to the juice.I have certainly noted how much
> > healthier my vines are this year-and more vigorous!! *I have use
> > garden compost plus some added fish blood and bone.Is it sensible to
> > add compost each year,and in your experience,when is the best time to
> > add it?
>
> > Thanks again,Michael
>
> I seriously doubt than adding compost will add 2 brix. *I would like to see
> doubi, or whatever his name actually is, point us to a literature cite.
>
> This flies in the face of research that indicates that when you already have
> vigorous growth, you do not further your problem. *I think most research
> would indicate that increased vegetative growth has a negative effect on
> grape berry maturity.
>
> In my opinion and experience, adding brix is done by increasing growing
> degree days, hours of sunlight or cropping your vines so that you do not
> over crop.

Paul,

Why don't you mulch a couple vines next year and get back to us with
the results?



On Sep 2, 8:50*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> michael wrote:
> > On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> >> > ripening fruit."
>
> >> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> >> > to help ripening."
>
> >> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling leaves
> >> > doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The vine takes time
> >> > to readjust it's physiology to compensate for the lost leaves. In an
> >> > environment like yours you need alent from *the leaves you can get..
> >> > People who grow grapes in California or an area with more sunshine and
> >> > heat have much more room to hack up the vines, you don't.
>
> >> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
> >> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments but also note
> >> the authors comments about situations of extreme vigor.
>
> >>http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>
> >> Paul
>
> >> >> On Aug 28, 8:36*am, michael > wrote:
> >> >> I received some very interesting advice a month or two ago,concerning
> >> >> the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained in the Double Guyot
> >> >> method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two leaves earlier when the
> >> >> canopy was in full growth,and since the beginning of August have left
> >> >> more on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> >> >> to help ripening.
> >> >> I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening well.My
> >> >> mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
> >> >> with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or whites.However one
> >> >> of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of weeks before harvest,which
> >> >> will be early this year in England.Our temperatures have not been
> >> >> great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures have
> >> >> not fallen below 15C.I live about 120 miles from my vines,so have to
> >> >> make a judgement when to visit.The average temperature (24hr average)
> >> >> at present is about 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of
> >> >> thumb to estimate the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr)
> >> >> temperature.
>
> >> >> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> >> >> ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
> >> >> produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there has
> >> >> been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they have all
> >> >> fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this is the same
> >> >> with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is crucial,and with a large
> >> >> crop,it is important to maintain a maximum leaf area,consistent with
> >> >> keeping protection against powdery mildew-good air flow and spray
> >> >> coverage.
>
> >> >> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of garden
> >> >> compost around each vine in the early spring period.I had not done
> >> >> this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous enough in our
> >> >> cool climate.However,although the vigour has increased somewhat
> >> >> further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with little powdery mildew,
> >> >> and I had a very good flower set.I think the compost keeps the soil
> >> >> more moist,thus avoiding a major powdery mildew attack in very dry
> >> >> spells.
>
> >> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Thanks for those comments.
>
> > The article you gave,Paul, is extremely interesting,and seems to deal
> > exactly with my problems.I will study the article in more detail,but
> > the comments on timing of removal of laterals seem to suggest that it
> > is best to remove (or prune to three leaves) most of *these during the
> > early flowering and fruit set period,but leave them after veraison
> > into the ripening phase.I think this is something like my practice.I
> > find that I have to remove the laterals in June,otherwise the canopy
> > becomes a completely tangled mess (especially this year after using
> > compost)-but this is the period of flowering and fruitset,so
> > presumably fine.Later from mid August,the vigour of the canopy slows
> > down,and more laterals can be left.However I still find myself hedging
> > the top of the canopy,which creates new growth rapidly-if I do not do
> > this the canopy can become unstable in quite light winds we have in
> > September/October.
>
> > I was also very interested in the comment from doubi...,that using
> > compost can add 2 Brix to the juice.I have certainly noted how much
> > healthier my vines are this year-and more vigorous!! *I have use
> > garden compost plus some added fish blood and bone.Is it sensible to
> > add compost each year,and in your experience,when is the best time to
> > add it?
>
> > Thanks again,Michael
>
> I seriously doubt than adding compost will add 2 brix. *I would like to see
> doubi, or whatever his name actually is, point us to a literature cite.
>
> This flies in the face of research that indicates that when you already have
> vigorous growth, you do not further your problem. *I think most research
> would indicate that increased vegetative growth has a negative effect on
> grape berry maturity.
>
> In my opinion and experience, adding brix is done by increasing growing
> degree days, hours of sunlight or cropping your vines so that you do not
> over crop.

Actually,

Mulching NOW is a great time as the vines suck up nutrients into their
roots in October. Remember, don't mulch over dry ground. Wait until it
rains heavily then use the mulch to seal it in.


On Sep 3, 8:07*am, wrote:
> Paul,
>
> Why don't you mulch a couple vines next year and get back to us with
> the results?
>
> On Sep 2, 8:50*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > michael wrote:
> > > On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> > >> > ripening fruit."
>
> > >> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> > >> > to help ripening."
>
> > >> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling leaves
> > >> > doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The vine takes time
> > >> > to readjust it's physiology to compensate for the lost leaves. In an
> > >> > environment like yours you need alent from *the leaves you can get.
> > >> > People who grow grapes in California or an area with more sunshine and
> > >> > heat have much more room to hack up the vines, you don't.
>
> > >> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
> > >> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments but also note
> > >> the authors comments about situations of extreme vigor.
>
> > >>http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>
> > >> Paul
>
> > >> >> On Aug 28, 8:36*am, michael > wrote:
> > >> >> I received some very interesting advice a month or two ago,concerning
> > >> >> the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained in the Double Guyot
> > >> >> method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two leaves earlier when the
> > >> >> canopy was in full growth,and since the beginning of August have left
> > >> >> more on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> > >> >> to help ripening.
> > >> >> I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening well.My
> > >> >> mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
> > >> >> with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or whites.However one
> > >> >> of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of weeks before harvest,which
> > >> >> will be early this year in England.Our temperatures have not been
> > >> >> great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures have
> > >> >> not fallen below 15C.I live about 120 miles from my vines,so have to
> > >> >> make a judgement when to visit.The average temperature (24hr average)
> > >> >> at present is about 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of
> > >> >> thumb to estimate the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr)
> > >> >> temperature.
>
> > >> >> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> > >> >> ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
> > >> >> produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there has
> > >> >> been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they have all
> > >> >> fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this is the same
> > >> >> with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is crucial,and with a large
> > >> >> crop,it is important to maintain a maximum leaf area,consistent with
> > >> >> keeping protection against powdery mildew-good air flow and spray
> > >> >> coverage.
>
> > >> >> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of garden
> > >> >> compost around each vine in the early spring period.I had not done
> > >> >> this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous enough in our
> > >> >> cool climate.However,although the vigour has increased somewhat
> > >> >> further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with little powdery mildew,
> > >> >> and I had a very good flower set.I think the compost keeps the soil
> > >> >> more moist,thus avoiding a major powdery mildew attack in very dry
> > >> >> spells.
>
> > >> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Thanks for those comments.
>
> > > The article you gave,Paul, is extremely interesting,and seems to deal
> > > exactly with my problems.I will study the article in more detail,but
> > > the comments on timing of removal of laterals seem to suggest that it
> > > is best to remove (or prune to three leaves) most of *these during the
> > > early flowering and fruit set period,but leave them after veraison
> > > into the ripening phase.I think this is something like my practice.I
> > > find that I have to remove the laterals in June,otherwise the canopy
> > > becomes a completely tangled mess (especially this year after using
> > > compost)-but this is the period of flowering and fruitset,so
> > > presumably fine.Later from mid August,the vigour of the canopy slows
> > > down,and more laterals can be left.However I still find myself hedging
> > > the top of the canopy,which creates new growth rapidly-if I do not do
> > > this the canopy can become unstable in quite light winds we have in
> > > September/October.
>
> > > I was also very interested in the comment from doubi...,that using
> > > compost can add 2 Brix to the juice.I have certainly noted how much
> > > healthier my vines are this year-and more vigorous!! *I have use
> > > garden compost plus some added fish blood and bone.Is it sensible to
> > > add compost each year,and in your experience,when is the best time to
> > > add it?
>
> > > Thanks again,Michael
>
> > I seriously doubt than adding compost will add 2 brix. *I would like to see
> > doubi, or whatever his name actually is, point us to a literature cite.
>
> > This flies in the face of research that indicates that when you already have
> > vigorous growth, you do not further your problem. *I think most research
> > would indicate that increased vegetative growth has a negative effect on
> > grape berry maturity.
>
> > In my opinion and experience, adding brix is done by increasing growing
> > degree days, hours of sunlight or cropping your vines so that you do not
> > over crop.

wrote:

> Micheal,
>
> Always trust your eyes and keep observing.

The very best thing for Michael to do is an experiment where he mulches a
row or rows and leaves the others unmulched and see if he gets the "2 brix"
increase on the mulched rows that you claim. The thing(s) that increase
brix are more sunlight and more growing degree days. Perhaps the only
thing Michael can do is cut down trees or other obstacles obstructing
sunlight.

You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell them of
your 2 brix increase revelation. I am sure you could start a new trend in
grape growing.

You never did answer my question that I asked in the past; where are you
growing your grapes and what are you growing?

> Paul, without any proof, is
> saying that what I have observed and what you have have observed
> couldn't be true.

Paul at least uses his real name.

I am saying that I have no doubt that mulching will increase vigor.
Increased vigor in an already vigorous situation will NOT improve grape
quality. In fact, it will do just the opposite. Do you like your wine to
smell and taste like vegetables? Here in the Mid Atlantic, commercial
growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor.

> It sounds like in your case, mulching has helped
> tremendously. There are many reasons for mulch and the main reason is
> that a healthy vine is a good vine. It's as simple as that.

The French say that the best wine is made from the struggling vine. Hmmm,
something to think about there, doublesb.

You will also find many references in the literature that state grapes do no
like wet feet. Grape vine roots can go VERY deep; deeper than almost all
other plants. You can not compare the root system of other shallow rooted
plants to grape vines. Promoting a shallow root system is not a good thing
to do for grape vines. Also consider where Vitis Vinifera originated - NOT
in parts of the world that had vigorous growth. Also, it is most
successfully grown - in semi arid areas.


>
>
>
>> On 3 Sep, 02:50, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > michael wrote:
>> > > On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
>> > >> > ripening fruit."
>>
>> > >> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
>> > >> > to help ripening."
>>
>> > >> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling
>> > >> > leaves doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The vine
>> > >> > takes time to readjust it's physiology to compensate for the lost
>> > >> > leaves. In an environment like yours you need alent from Â*the
>> > >> > leaves you can get. People who grow grapes in California or an
>> > >> > area with more sunshine and heat have much more room to hack up
>> > >> > the vines, you don't.
>>
>> > >> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
>> > >> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments but also
>> > >> note the authors comments about situations of extreme vigor.
>>
>> > >>http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>>
>> > >> Paul
>>
>> > >> >> On Aug 28, 8:36Â*am, michael > wrote:
>> > >> >> I received some very interesting advice a month or two
>> > >> >> ago,concerning the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained
>> > >> >> in the Double Guyot method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two
>> > >> >> leaves earlier when the canopy was in full growth,and since the
>> > >> >> beginning of August have left more on.I removed some lower leaves
>> > >> >> just before netting a few days ago to help ripening.
>> > >> >> I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening
>> > >> >> well.My mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to
>> > >> >> be satisfied with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or
>> > >> >> whites.However one of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of
>> > >> >> weeks before harvest,which will be early this year in England.Our
>> > >> >> temperatures have not been great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the
>> > >> >> night time temperatures have not fallen below 15C.I live about
>> > >> >> 120 miles from my vines,so have to make a judgement when to
>> > >> >> visit.The average temperature (24hr average) at present is about
>> > >> >> 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of thumb to estimate
>> > >> >> the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr) temperature.
>>
>> > >> >> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
>> > >> >> ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
>> > >> >> produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there
>> > >> >> has been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they
>> > >> >> have all fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this
>> > >> >> is the same with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is
>> > >> >> crucial,and with a large crop,it is important to maintain a
>> > >> >> maximum leaf area,consistent with keeping protection against
>> > >> >> powdery mildew-good air flow and spray coverage.
>>
>> > >> >> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of
>> > >> >> garden compost around each vine in the early spring period.I had
>> > >> >> not done this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous
>> > >> >> enough in our cool climate.However,although the vigour has
>> > >> >> increased somewhat further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with
>> > >> >> little powdery mildew, and I had a very good flower set.I think
>> > >> >> the compost keeps the soil more moist,thus avoiding a major
>> > >> >> powdery mildew attack in very dry spells.
>>
>> > >> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > >> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> > > Thanks for those comments.
>>
>> > > The article you gave,Paul, is extremely interesting,and seems to deal
>> > > exactly with my problems.I will study the article in more detail,but
>> > > the comments on timing of removal of laterals seem to suggest that it
>> > > is best to remove (or prune to three leaves) most of Â*these during
>> > > the early flowering and fruit set period,but leave them after
>> > > veraison into the ripening phase.I think this is something like my
>> > > practice.I find that I have to remove the laterals in June,otherwise
>> > > the canopy becomes a completely tangled mess (especially this year
>> > > after using compost)-but this is the period of flowering and
>> > > fruitset,so presumably fine.Later from mid August,the vigour of the
>> > > canopy slows down,and more laterals can be left.However I still find
>> > > myself hedging the top of the canopy,which creates new growth
>> > > rapidly-if I do not do this the canopy can become unstable in quite
>> > > light winds we have in September/October.
>>
>> > > I was also very interested in the comment from doubi...,that using
>> > > compost can add 2 Brix to the juice.I have certainly noted how much
>> > > healthier my vines are this year-and more vigorous!! Â*I have use
>> > > garden compost plus some added fish blood and bone.Is it sensible to
>> > > add compost each year,and in your experience,when is the best time to
>> > > add it?
>>
>> > > Thanks again,Michael
>>
>> > I seriously doubt than adding compost will add 2 brix. Â*I would like to
>> > see doubi, or whatever his name actually is, point us to a literature
>> > cite.
>>
>> > This flies in the face of research that indicates that when you already
>> > have vigorous growth, you do not further your problem. Â*I think most
>> > research would indicate that increased vegetative growth has a negative
>> > effect on grape berry maturity.
>>
>> > In my opinion and experience, adding brix is done by increasing growing
>> > degree days, hours of sunlight or cropping your vines so that you do
>> > not over crop.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> Hi again,
>> Does the ripening process depend on hours of sunlight
>> or degree-days.This year my vines are cropping earlier than
>> normal.There is also a very heavy crop,probably due to the excellent
>> very warm June we had here.Since June the weather here has been
>> mediocre during the day with average or slightly below average
>> temperatures.However the overnight temperatures have been very
>> consistently in the 14-17C minimum range ,which is well above average
>> for England.So I am postulating that it is the number of degree-days
>> (above 10C I think) over a 24 hr period which is ripening my grapes
>> early.There certainly has been a shortage of sunshine this year.
>> On the compost question,I thought that it was always useful to add
>> compost around the vine (maybe without any added fertiliser
>> annually),to avoid the vines roots drying out during a very dry
>> spell,which would encourage powdery mildew.My vines are on a s-facing
>> slope on dry limestone soil,so always have a tendency to dry out.
>> Several books on vineyard management do encourage the use of
>> compost,but maybe my vines are vigorous enough.
>> Best regards
>> Michael

" The thing(s) that increase
brix are more sunlight and more growing degree days."

That is not true. If what you say is true than growing a vine in the
sahara desert would yield the best grapes.

"You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell them
of
> your 2 brix increase revelation. "

Most viticulturists are like you, they claim that grape vines grow
better with no water. Maybe that is why the Fench only have "vintage
years" every 20 years or so.

"Here in the Mid Atlantic, commercial
> growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor."

And I'm sure they also fertilize. If they put their mouths were their
money was they wouldn't feritlize. BTW, fertilizer is USELESS if there
is no water in the soil for the roots to soak it up which blows away
your theory about vines growing well in "arid" regions. While grapes
roots do go deep a good percentage of them are near the surface.

"You will also find many references in the literature that state
grapes do no
> like wet feet"

They don't like wet feet. What they like is well drained soil which by
design dries out FAST. That is why mulching over optimum soil is the
RIGHT thing to do.

"


On Sep 3, 8:43*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> wrote:
> > Micheal,
>
> > Always trust your eyes and keep observing.
>
> The very best thing for Michael to do is an experiment where he mulches a
> row or rows and leaves the others unmulched and see if he gets the "2 brix"
> increase on the mulched rows that you claim. The thing(s) that increase
> brix are more sunlight and more growing degree days. *Perhaps the only
> thing Michael can do is cut down trees or other obstacles obstructing
> sunlight.
>
> You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell them of
> your 2 brix increase revelation. *I am sure you could start a new trend in
> grape growing.
>
> You never did answer my question that I asked in the past; where are you
> growing your grapes and what are you growing?
>
> > Paul, without any proof, is
> > saying that what I have observed and what you have have observed
> > couldn't be true.
>
> Paul at least uses his real name.
>
> I am saying that I have no doubt that mulching will increase vigor.
> Increased vigor in an already vigorous situation will NOT improve grape
> quality. *In fact, it will do just the opposite. Do you like your wine to
> smell and taste like vegetables? *Here in the Mid Atlantic, commercial
> growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor.
>
> > It sounds like in your case, mulching has helped
> > tremendously. There are many reasons for mulch and the main reason is
> > that a healthy vine is a good vine. It's as simple as that.
>
> The French say that the best wine is made from the struggling vine. *Hmmm,
> something to think about there, doublesb.
>
> You will also find many references in the literature that state grapes do no
> like wet feet. *Grape vine roots can go VERY deep; *deeper than almost all
> other plants. *You can not compare the root system of other shallow rooted
> plants to grape vines. *Promoting a shallow root system is not a good thing
> to do for grape vines. *Also consider where Vitis Vinifera originated - NOT
> in parts of the world that had vigorous growth. Also, it is most
> successfully grown - in semi arid areas.
>
>
>
>
>
> >> On 3 Sep, 02:50, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
> >> > michael wrote:
> >> > > On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> >> > >> wrote:
> >> > >> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> >> > >> > ripening fruit."
>
> >> > >> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> >> > >> > to help ripening."
>
> >> > >> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling
> >> > >> > leaves doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The vine
> >> > >> > takes time to readjust it's physiology to compensate for the lost
> >> > >> > leaves. In an environment like yours you need alent from *the
> >> > >> > leaves you can get. People who grow grapes in California or an
> >> > >> > area with more sunshine and heat have much more room to hack up
> >> > >> > the vines, you don't.
>
> >> > >> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
> >> > >> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments but also
> >> > >> note the authors comments about situations of extreme vigor.
>
> >> > >>http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>
> >> > >> Paul
>
> >> > >> >> On Aug 28, 8:36*am, michael > wrote:
> >> > >> >> I received some very interesting advice a month or two
> >> > >> >> ago,concerning the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained
> >> > >> >> in the Double Guyot method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two
> >> > >> >> leaves earlier when the canopy was in full growth,and since the
> >> > >> >> beginning of August have left more on.I removed some lower leaves
> >> > >> >> just before netting a few days ago to help ripening.
> >> > >> >> I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening
> >> > >> >> well.My mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to
> >> > >> >> be satisfied with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or
> >> > >> >> whites.However one of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of
> >> > >> >> weeks before harvest,which will be early this year in England.Our
> >> > >> >> temperatures have not been great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the
> >> > >> >> night time temperatures have not fallen below 15C.I live about
> >> > >> >> 120 miles from my vines,so have to make a judgement when to
> >> > >> >> visit.The average temperature (24hr average) at present is about
> >> > >> >> 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of thumb to estimate
> >> > >> >> the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr) temperature..
>
> >> > >> >> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> >> > >> >> ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
> >> > >> >> produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there
> >> > >> >> has been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they
> >> > >> >> have all fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this
> >> > >> >> is the same with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is
> >> > >> >> crucial,and with a large crop,it is important to maintain a
> >> > >> >> maximum leaf area,consistent with keeping protection against
> >> > >> >> powdery mildew-good air flow and spray coverage.
>
> >> > >> >> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of
> >> > >> >> garden compost around each vine in the early spring period.I had
> >> > >> >> not done this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous
> >> > >> >> enough in our cool climate.However,although the vigour has
> >> > >> >> increased somewhat further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with
> >> > >> >> little powdery mildew, and I had a very good flower set.I think
> >> > >> >> the compost keeps the soil more moist,thus avoiding a major
> >> > >> >> powdery mildew attack in very dry spells.
>
> >> > >> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> >> > > Thanks for those comments.
>
> >> > > The article you gave,Paul, is extremely interesting,and seems to deal
> >> > > exactly with my problems.I will study the article in more detail,but
> >> > > the comments on timing of removal of laterals seem to suggest that it
> >> > > is best to remove (or prune to three leaves) most of *these during
> >> > > the early flowering and fruit set period,but leave them after
> >> > > veraison into the ripening phase.I think this is something like my
> >> > > practice.I find that I have to remove the laterals in June,otherwise
> >> > > the canopy becomes a completely tangled mess (especially this year
> >> > > after using compost)-but this is the period of flowering and
> >> > > fruitset,so presumably fine.Later from mid August,the vigour of the
> >> > > canopy slows down,and more laterals can be left.However I still find
> >> > > myself hedging the top of the canopy,which creates new growth
> >> > > rapidly-if I do not do this the canopy can become unstable in quite
> >> > > light winds we have in September/October.
>
> >> > > I was also very interested in the comment from doubi...,that using
> >> > > compost can add 2 Brix to the juice.I have certainly noted how much
> >> > > healthier my vines are this year-and more vigorous!! *I have use
> >> > > garden compost plus some added fish blood and bone.Is it sensible to
> >> > > add compost each year,and in your experience,when is the best time to
> >> > > add it?
>
> >> > > Thanks again,Michael
>
> >> > I seriously doubt than adding compost will add 2 brix. *I would like to
> >> > see doubi, or whatever his name actually is, point us to a literature
> >> > cite.
>
> >> > This flies in the face of research that indicates that when you already
> >> > have vigorous growth, you do not further your problem. *I think most
> >> > research would indicate that increased vegetative growth has a negative
> >> > effect on grape berry maturity.
>
> >> > In my opinion and experience, adding brix is done by increasing growing
> >> > degree days, hours of sunlight or cropping your vines so that you do
> >> > not over crop.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> > - Show quoted text -
>
> >> Hi again,
> >> Does the ripening process depend on hours of sunlight
> >> or degree-days.This year my vines are cropping earlier than
> >> normal.There is also a very heavy crop,probably due to the excellent
> >> very warm June we had here.Since June the weather here has been
> >> mediocre during the day with average or slightly below average
> >> temperatures.However the overnight temperatures have been very
> >> consistently in the 14-17C minimum range ,which is well above average
> >> for England.So I am postulating that it is the number of degree-days
> >> (above 10C I think) over a 24 hr period which is ripening my grapes
> >> early.There certainly has been a shortage of sunshine this year.
> >> On the compost question,I thought that it was always useful to add
> >> compost around the vine (maybe without any added fertiliser
> >> annually),to avoid the vines roots drying out during a very dry
> >> spell,which would encourage powdery mildew.My vines are on a s-facing
> >> slope on dry limestone soil,so always have a tendency to dry out.
> >> Several books on vineyard management do encourage the use of
> >> compost,but maybe my vines are vigorous enough.
> >> Best regards
> >> Michael

Why mulch works.

Mulch shouldn't be put down over dry soil because it will cause the
soil stay dry unless there is a heavy rain. This is why putting mulch
over wet soil is the right thing to do. The mulch seals in the
moisture already in the soil and regulates more moisture by soaking up
heavy rain until the amount of rain oversaturates the mulch. Then the
moisiture will start seeping in to the soil. On light rains the mulch
will absorb the moisture and actually evaporate it when it starts
raining. Meanwhile the mositure underneath the mulch is preserved so
the roots can get to the nutrients. Since vines need very litle
nutirents most mulched soils provide the nutrients for a healthy vine
without provinding too much moisture or nutrients for over vigor.
Mulch also provides an environment where the vine uses what it needs
when it needs it not when it rains or when fertilizer is put down.
Mulch also breaks down and provides a natural way for the vines to be
healthy and allow the vines to progress physiologically on the vines
time table. So as you can see mulching vines are healthy for the vines
along with possibly restraining vigor when it rains hard.


,On Sep 3, 10:24*am, wrote:
> " The thing(s) that increase
> brix are more sunlight and more growing degree days."
>
> That is not true. If what you say is true than growing a vine in the
> sahara desert would yield the best grapes.
>
> "You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell them
> of
>
> > your 2 brix increase revelation. "
>
> Most viticulturists are like you, they claim that grape vines grow
> better with no water. Maybe that is why the Fench only have "vintage
> years" every 20 years or so.
>
> "Here in the Mid Atlantic, commercial
>
> > growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor."
>
> And I'm sure they also fertilize. If they put their mouths were their
> money was they wouldn't feritlize. BTW, fertilizer is USELESS if there
> is no water in the soil for the roots to soak it up which blows away
> your theory about vines growing well in "arid" regions. While grapes
> roots do go deep a good percentage of them are near the surface.
>
> "You will also find many references in the literature that state
> grapes do no
>
> > like wet feet"
>
> They don't like wet feet. What they like is well drained soil which by
> design dries out FAST. That is why mulching over optimum soil is the
> RIGHT thing to do.
>
> "
>
> On Sep 3, 8:43*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > > Micheal,
>
> > > Always trust your eyes and keep observing.
>
> > The very best thing for Michael to do is an experiment where he mulches a
> > row or rows and leaves the others unmulched and see if he gets the "2 brix"
> > increase on the mulched rows that you claim. The thing(s) that increase
> > brix are more sunlight and more growing degree days. *Perhaps the only
> > thing Michael can do is cut down trees or other obstacles obstructing
> > sunlight.
>
> > You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell them of
> > your 2 brix increase revelation. *I am sure you could start a new trend in
> > grape growing.
>
> > You never did answer my question that I asked in the past; where are you
> > growing your grapes and what are you growing?
>
> > > Paul, without any proof, is
> > > saying that what I have observed and what you have have observed
> > > couldn't be true.
>
> > Paul at least uses his real name.
>
> > I am saying that I have no doubt that mulching will increase vigor.
> > Increased vigor in an already vigorous situation will NOT improve grape
> > quality. *In fact, it will do just the opposite. Do you like your wine to
> > smell and taste like vegetables? *Here in the Mid Atlantic, commercial
> > growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor.
>
> > > It sounds like in your case, mulching has helped
> > > tremendously. There are many reasons for mulch and the main reason is
> > > that a healthy vine is a good vine. It's as simple as that.
>
> > The French say that the best wine is made from the struggling vine. *Hmmm,
> > something to think about there, doublesb.
>
> > You will also find many references in the literature that state grapes do no
> > like wet feet. *Grape vine roots can go VERY deep; *deeper than almost all
> > other plants. *You can not compare the root system of other shallow rooted
> > plants to grape vines. *Promoting a shallow root system is not a good thing
> > to do for grape vines. *Also consider where Vitis Vinifera originated - NOT
> > in parts of the world that had vigorous growth. Also, it is most
> > successfully grown - in semi arid areas.
>
> > >> On 3 Sep, 02:50, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
> > >> > michael wrote:
> > >> > > On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > >> > >> wrote:
> > >> > >> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> > >> > >> > ripening fruit."
>
> > >> > >> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> > >> > >> > to help ripening."
>
> > >> > >> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling
> > >> > >> > leaves doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The vine
> > >> > >> > takes time to readjust it's physiology to compensate for the lost
> > >> > >> > leaves. In an environment like yours you need alent from *the
> > >> > >> > leaves you can get. People who grow grapes in California or an
> > >> > >> > area with more sunshine and heat have much more room to hack up
> > >> > >> > the vines, you don't.
>
> > >> > >> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
> > >> > >> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments but also
> > >> > >> note the authors comments about situations of extreme vigor.
>
> > >> > >>http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>
> > >> > >> Paul
>
> > >> > >> >> On Aug 28, 8:36*am, michael > wrote:
> > >> > >> >> I received some very interesting advice a month or two
> > >> > >> >> ago,concerning the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained
> > >> > >> >> in the Double Guyot method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two
> > >> > >> >> leaves earlier when the canopy was in full growth,and since the
> > >> > >> >> beginning of August have left more on.I removed some lower leaves
> > >> > >> >> just before netting a few days ago to help ripening.
> > >> > >> >> I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening
> > >> > >> >> well.My mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to
> > >> > >> >> be satisfied with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or
> > >> > >> >> whites.However one of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of
> > >> > >> >> weeks before harvest,which will be early this year in England.Our
> > >> > >> >> temperatures have not been great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the
> > >> > >> >> night time temperatures have not fallen below 15C.I live about
> > >> > >> >> 120 miles from my vines,so have to make a judgement when to
> > >> > >> >> visit.The average temperature (24hr average) at present is about
> > >> > >> >> 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of thumb to estimate
> > >> > >> >> the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr) temperature.
>
> > >> > >> >> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> > >> > >> >> ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
> > >> > >> >> produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there
> > >> > >> >> has been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they
> > >> > >> >> have all fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this
> > >> > >> >> is the same with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is
> > >> > >> >> crucial,and with a large crop,it is important to maintain a
> > >> > >> >> maximum leaf area,consistent with keeping protection against
> > >> > >> >> powdery mildew-good air flow and spray coverage.
>
> > >> > >> >> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of
> > >> > >> >> garden compost around each vine in the early spring period.I had
> > >> > >> >> not done this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous
> > >> > >> >> enough in our cool climate.However,although the vigour has
> > >> > >> >> increased somewhat further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with
> > >> > >> >> little powdery mildew, and I had a very good flower set.I think
> > >> > >> >> the compost keeps the soil more moist,thus avoiding a major
> > >> > >> >> powdery mildew attack in very dry spells.
>
> > >> > >> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> > >> > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > >> > > Thanks for those comments.
>
> > >> > > The article you gave,Paul, is extremely interesting,and seems to deal
> > >> > > exactly with my problems.I will study the article in more detail,but
> > >> > > the comments on timing of removal of laterals seem to suggest that it
> > >> > > is best to remove (or prune to three leaves) most of *these during
> > >> > > the early flowering and fruit set period,but leave them after
> > >> > > veraison into the ripening phase.I think this is something like my
> > >> > > practice.I find that I have to remove the laterals in June,otherwise
> > >> > > the canopy becomes a completely tangled mess (especially this year
> > >> > > after using compost)-but this is the period of flowering and
> > >> > > fruitset,so presumably fine.Later from mid August,the vigour of the
> > >> > > canopy slows down,and more laterals can be left.However I still find
> > >> > > myself hedging the top of the canopy,which creates new growth
> > >> > > rapidly-if I do not do this the canopy can become unstable in quite
> > >> > > light winds we have in September/October.
>
> > >> > > I was also very interested in the comment from doubi...,that using
> > >> > > compost can add 2 Brix to the juice.I have certainly noted how much
> > >> > > healthier my vines are this year-and more vigorous!! *I have use
> > >> > > garden compost plus some added fish blood and bone.Is it sensible to
> > >> > > add compost each year,and in your experience,when is the best time to
> > >> > > add it?
>
> > >> > > Thanks again,Michael
>
> > >> > I seriously doubt than adding compost will add 2 brix. *I would like to
> > >> > see doubi, or whatever his name actually is, point us to a literature
> > >> > cite.
>
> > >> > This flies in the face of research that indicates that when you already
> > >> > have vigorous growth, you do not further your problem. *I think most
> > >> > research would indicate that increased vegetative growth has a negative
> > >> > effect on grape berry maturity.
>
> > >> > In my opinion and experience, adding brix is done by increasing growing
> > >> > degree days, hours of sunlight or cropping your vines so that you do
> > >> > not over crop.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > >> > - Show quoted text -
>
> > >> Hi again,
> > >> Does the ripening process depend on hours of sunlight
> > >> or degree-days.This year my vines are cropping earlier than
> > >> normal.There is also a very heavy crop,probably due to the excellent
> > >> very warm June we had here.Since June the weather here has been
> > >> mediocre during the day with average or slightly below average
> > >> temperatures.However the overnight temperatures have been very
> > >> consistently in the 14-17C minimum range ,which is well above average
> > >> for England.So I am postulating
>
> ...
>
> read more »

Michael,

BTW, a healthy vine is more resistant to fungus than a vine that has
been "made to "struggle". Another reason to mulch and may be a reason
why you have little powdery mildew problems this year.



On Sep 3, 10:55*am, wrote:
> Why mulch works.
>
> Mulch shouldn't be put down over dry soil because it will cause the
> soil stay dry unless there is a heavy rain. This is why putting mulch
> over wet soil is the right thing to do. The mulch seals in the
> moisture already in the soil and regulates more moisture by soaking up
> heavy rain until the amount of rain oversaturates the mulch. Then the
> moisiture will start seeping in to the soil. On light rains the mulch
> will absorb the moisture and actually evaporate it when it starts
> raining. Meanwhile the mositure underneath the mulch is preserved so
> the roots can get to the nutrients. Since vines need very litle
> nutirents most mulched soils provide the nutrients for a healthy vine
> without provinding too much moisture or nutrients for over vigor.
> Mulch also provides an environment where the vine uses what it needs
> when it needs it not when it rains or when fertilizer is put down.
> Mulch also breaks down and provides a natural way for the vines to be
> healthy and allow the vines to progress physiologically on the vines
> time table. So as you can see mulching vines are healthy for the vines
> along with possibly restraining vigor when it rains hard.
>
> ,On Sep 3, 10:24*am, wrote:
>
>
>
> > " The thing(s) that increase
> > brix are more sunlight and more growing degree days."
>
> > That is not true. If what you say is true than growing a vine in the
> > sahara desert would yield the best grapes.
>
> > "You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell them
> > of
>
> > > your 2 brix increase revelation. "
>
> > Most viticulturists are like you, they claim that grape vines grow
> > better with no water. Maybe that is why the Fench only have "vintage
> > years" every 20 years or so.
>
> > "Here in the Mid Atlantic, commercial
>
> > > growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor."
>
> > And I'm sure they also fertilize. If they put their mouths were their
> > money was they wouldn't feritlize. BTW, fertilizer is USELESS if there
> > is no water in the soil for the roots to soak it up which blows away
> > your theory about vines growing well in "arid" regions. While grapes
> > roots do go deep a good percentage of them are near the surface.
>
> > "You will also find many references in the literature that state
> > grapes do no
>
> > > like wet feet"
>
> > They don't like wet feet. What they like is well drained soil which by
> > design dries out FAST. That is why mulching over optimum soil is the
> > RIGHT thing to do.
>
> > "
>
> > On Sep 3, 8:43*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Micheal,
>
> > > > Always trust your eyes and keep observing.
>
> > > The very best thing for Michael to do is an experiment where he mulches a
> > > row or rows and leaves the others unmulched and see if he gets the "2 brix"
> > > increase on the mulched rows that you claim. The thing(s) that increase
> > > brix are more sunlight and more growing degree days. *Perhaps the only
> > > thing Michael can do is cut down trees or other obstacles obstructing
> > > sunlight.
>
> > > You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell them of
> > > your 2 brix increase revelation. *I am sure you could start a new trend in
> > > grape growing.
>
> > > You never did answer my question that I asked in the past; where are you
> > > growing your grapes and what are you growing?
>
> > > > Paul, without any proof, is
> > > > saying that what I have observed and what you have have observed
> > > > couldn't be true.
>
> > > Paul at least uses his real name.
>
> > > I am saying that I have no doubt that mulching will increase vigor.
> > > Increased vigor in an already vigorous situation will NOT improve grape
> > > quality. *In fact, it will do just the opposite. Do you like your wine to
> > > smell and taste like vegetables? *Here in the Mid Atlantic, commercial
> > > growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor.
>
> > > > It sounds like in your case, mulching has helped
> > > > tremendously. There are many reasons for mulch and the main reason is
> > > > that a healthy vine is a good vine. It's as simple as that.
>
> > > The French say that the best wine is made from the struggling vine. *Hmmm,
> > > something to think about there, doublesb.
>
> > > You will also find many references in the literature that state grapes do no
> > > like wet feet. *Grape vine roots can go VERY deep; *deeper than almost all
> > > other plants. *You can not compare the root system of other shallow rooted
> > > plants to grape vines. *Promoting a shallow root system is not a good thing
> > > to do for grape vines. *Also consider where Vitis Vinifera originated - NOT
> > > in parts of the world that had vigorous growth. Also, it is most
> > > successfully grown - in semi arid areas.
>
> > > >> On 3 Sep, 02:50, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
> > > >> > michael wrote:
> > > >> > > On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > > >> > >> wrote:
> > > >> > >> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> > > >> > >> > ripening fruit."
>
> > > >> > >> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> > > >> > >> > to help ripening."
>
> > > >> > >> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling
> > > >> > >> > leaves doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The vine
> > > >> > >> > takes time to readjust it's physiology to compensate for the lost
> > > >> > >> > leaves. In an environment like yours you need alent from *the
> > > >> > >> > leaves you can get. People who grow grapes in California or an
> > > >> > >> > area with more sunshine and heat have much more room to hack up
> > > >> > >> > the vines, you don't.
>
> > > >> > >> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
> > > >> > >> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments but also
> > > >> > >> note the authors comments about situations of extreme vigor.
>
> > > >> > >>http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>
> > > >> > >> Paul
>
> > > >> > >> >> On Aug 28, 8:36*am, michael > wrote:
> > > >> > >> >> I received some very interesting advice a month or two
> > > >> > >> >> ago,concerning the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained
> > > >> > >> >> in the Double Guyot method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two
> > > >> > >> >> leaves earlier when the canopy was in full growth,and since the
> > > >> > >> >> beginning of August have left more on.I removed some lower leaves
> > > >> > >> >> just before netting a few days ago to help ripening.
> > > >> > >> >> I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening
> > > >> > >> >> well.My mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to
> > > >> > >> >> be satisfied with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or
> > > >> > >> >> whites.However one of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of
> > > >> > >> >> weeks before harvest,which will be early this year in England.Our
> > > >> > >> >> temperatures have not been great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the
> > > >> > >> >> night time temperatures have not fallen below 15C.I live about
> > > >> > >> >> 120 miles from my vines,so have to make a judgement when to
> > > >> > >> >> visit.The average temperature (24hr average) at present is about
> > > >> > >> >> 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of thumb to estimate
> > > >> > >> >> the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr) temperature.
>
> > > >> > >> >> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> > > >> > >> >> ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
> > > >> > >> >> produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there
> > > >> > >> >> has been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they
> > > >> > >> >> have all fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this
> > > >> > >> >> is the same with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is
> > > >> > >> >> crucial,and with a large crop,it is important to maintain a
> > > >> > >> >> maximum leaf area,consistent with keeping protection against
> > > >> > >> >> powdery mildew-good air flow and spray coverage.
>
> > > >> > >> >> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of
> > > >> > >> >> garden compost around each vine in the early spring period..I had
> > > >> > >> >> not done this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous
> > > >> > >> >> enough in our cool climate.However,although the vigour has
> > > >> > >> >> increased somewhat further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with
> > > >> > >> >> little powdery mildew, and I had a very good flower set.I think
> > > >> > >> >> the compost keeps the soil more moist,thus avoiding a major
> > > >> > >> >> powdery mildew attack in very dry spells.
>
> > > >> > >> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > >> > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > >> > > Thanks for those comments.
>
> > > >> > > The article you gave,Paul, is extremely interesting,and seems to deal
> > > >> > > exactly with my problems.I will study the article in more detail,but
> > > >> > > the comments on timing of removal of laterals seem to suggest that it
> > > >> > > is best to remove (or prune to three leaves) most of *these during
> > > >> > > the early flowering and fruit set period,but leave them after
> > > >> > > veraison into the ripening phase.I think this is something like my
> > > >> > > practice.I find that I have to remove the laterals in June,otherwise
> > > >> > > the canopy becomes a completely tangled mess (especially this year
> > > >> > > after using compost)-but this is the period of flowering and
> > > >> > > fruitset,so presumably fine.Later from mid August,the vigour of the
> > > >> > > canopy slows down,and more laterals can be left.However I still find
> > > >> > > myself hedging the top of the canopy,which creates new growth
> > > >> > > rapidly-if I do not do this the canopy can become unstable in quite
> > > >> > > light winds we have in September/October.
>
> > > >> > > I was also very interested in the comment from doubi...,that using
> > > >> > > compost can add 2 Brix to the juice.I have certainly noted
>
> ...
>
> read more »

wrote:

> " The thing(s) that increase
> brix are more sunlight and more growing degree days."
>
> That is not true. If what you say is true than growing a vine in the
> sahara desert would yield the best grapes.

I see, you STILL refuse to state your name and where you live and grow
grapes and which varieties you grow.

Ever see an oasis in the desert? Plants there do very well with just a
little water.

The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is
regulated by drip irrigation or nature provides just enough water - sort of
like fine tuning an IV for a Human in the hospital. Drip irrigation is
usually cut off or reduced to promote better ripening near harvest time.
In your theory, you would give them all the water they wanted. The result
would be extremely long canes with poor fruit.

Genetically grapes could care less about optimum ripening as long as there
is ample sun and water. Grapes are genetically coded to be climbers and
reach for the sun. When water is reduced, the grape vine will stop sending
energy to the shoot growth and instead put its energy into maturing the
seeds and fruit to make it more likely birds and other animals will eat
them, spread their seeds and perpetuate the species. This is the only
thing nature cares about - perpetuating the species.

>
> "You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell them
> of
>> your 2 brix increase revelation. "
>
> Most viticulturists are like you, they claim that grape vines grow
> better with no water. Maybe that is why the Fench only have "vintage
> years" every 20 years or so.

Tell it to the French.

Excessive vigor promotes poor quality wine. I suppose you disagree with
this also.

Publish. and have your work peer reviewed. Most research viticulturists
would welcome your documented research.

Paul


>
> "Here in the Mid Atlantic, commercial
>> growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor."
>
> And I'm sure they also fertilize.

NO!! most do not fertilize.

> If they put their mouths were their
> money was they wouldn't feritlize.

They don't.

> BTW, fertilizer is USELESS if there
> is no water in the soil for the roots to soak it up which blows away
> your theory about vines growing well in "arid" regions.

The proof is well established. I think you live in California, right?
What is the climate in most of the vineyards there? What is the climate in
Washington State where grapes are grown. What is the climate in Argentina
and Chile where grapes are grown. Vitis Vinifera originated in Eurasia
near the Caspian and Black Sea - hardly a tropical paradise.

> While grapes
> roots do go deep a good percentage of them are near the surface.

Yep, if you water them, you will have a good amount of them near the
surface.

>
> "You will also find many references in the literature that state
> grapes do no
>> like wet feet"
>
> They don't like wet feet. What they like is well drained soil which by
> design dries out FAST. That is why mulching over optimum soil is the
> RIGHT thing to do.

Michael can easily do an experiment and grow his vineyard differently in
different rows and compare.


>
> "
>
>
> On Sep 3, 8:43Â*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > Micheal,
>>
>> > Always trust your eyes and keep observing.
>>
>> The very best thing for Michael to do is an experiment where he mulches a
>> row or rows and leaves the others unmulched and see if he gets the "2
>> brix" increase on the mulched rows that you claim. The thing(s) that
>> increase brix are more sunlight and more growing degree days. Â*Perhaps
>> the only thing Michael can do is cut down trees or other obstacles
>> obstructing sunlight.
>>
>> You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell them of
>> your 2 brix increase revelation. Â*I am sure you could start a new trend
>> in grape growing.
>>
>> You never did answer my question that I asked in the past; where are you
>> growing your grapes and what are you growing?
>>
>> > Paul, without any proof, is
>> > saying that what I have observed and what you have have observed
>> > couldn't be true.
>>
>> Paul at least uses his real name.
>>
>> I am saying that I have no doubt that mulching will increase vigor.
>> Increased vigor in an already vigorous situation will NOT improve grape
>> quality. Â*In fact, it will do just the opposite. Do you like your wine to
>> smell and taste like vegetables? Â*Here in the Mid Atlantic, commercial
>> growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor.
>>
>> > It sounds like in your case, mulching has helped
>> > tremendously. There are many reasons for mulch and the main reason is
>> > that a healthy vine is a good vine. It's as simple as that.
>>
>> The French say that the best wine is made from the struggling vine.
>> Hmmm, something to think about there, doublesb.
>>
>> You will also find many references in the literature that state grapes do
>> no like wet feet. Â*Grape vine roots can go VERY deep; Â*deeper than almost
>> all other plants. Â*You can not compare the root system of other shallow
>> rooted plants to grape vines. Â*Promoting a shallow root system is not a
>> good thing to do for grape vines. Â*Also consider where Vitis Vinifera
>> originated - NOT in parts of the world that had vigorous growth. Also, it
>> is most successfully grown - in semi arid areas.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >> On 3 Sep, 02:50, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>>
>> >> > michael wrote:
>> >> > > On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
>> >> > > wrote:
>> >> > >> wrote:
>> >> > >> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area
>> >> > >> > in ripening fruit."
>>
>> >> > >> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
>> >> > >> > to help ripening."
>>
>> >> > >> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling
>> >> > >> > leaves doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The
>> >> > >> > vine takes time to readjust it's physiology to compensate for
>> >> > >> > the lost leaves. In an environment like yours you need alent
>> >> > >> > from Â*the leaves you can get. People who grow grapes in
>> >> > >> > California or an area with more sunshine and heat have much
>> >> > >> > more room to hack up the vines, you don't.
>>
>> >> > >> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
>> >> > >> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments but
>> >> > >> also note the authors comments about situations of extreme vigor.
>>
>> >> > >>http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>>
>> >> > >> Paul
>>
>> >> > >> >> On Aug 28, 8:36Â*am, michael >
>> >> > >> >> wrote: I received some very interesting advice a month or two
>> >> > >> >> ago,concerning the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes
>> >> > >> >> trained in the Double Guyot method.I pruned the sidehoots to
>> >> > >> >> one or two leaves earlier when the canopy was in full
>> >> > >> >> growth,and since the beginning of August have left more on.I
>> >> > >> >> removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
>> >> > >> >> to help ripening. I have an excellent crop this year,which
>> >> > >> >> seems to be ripening well.My mini vineyard is in
>> >> > >> >> Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied with Brix
>> >> > >> >> values maximising at about 18 for reds or whites.However one
>> >> > >> >> of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of weeks before
>> >> > >> >> harvest,which will be early this year in England.Our
>> >> > >> >> temperatures have not been great in the daytime at 20-22C,but
>> >> > >> >> the night time temperatures have not fallen below 15C.I live
>> >> > >> >> about 120 miles from my vines,so have to make a judgement when
>> >> > >> >> to visit.The average temperature (24hr average) at present is
>> >> > >> >> about 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of thumb to
>> >> > >> >> estimate the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr)
>> >> > >> >> temperature.
>>
>> >> > >> >> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area
>> >> > >> >> in ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our
>> >> > >> >> garden,which produces a good crop of sweet damsons each
>> >> > >> >> year.This year there has been an enormous crop (twice or three
>> >> > >> >> times normal),and they have all fallen now,but with none of
>> >> > >> >> them ripe.I assume that this is the same with vines.The
>> >> > >> >> balance of leaf to fruit is crucial,and with a large crop,it
>> >> > >> >> is important to maintain a maximum leaf area,consistent with
>> >> > >> >> keeping protection against powdery mildew-good air flow and
>> >> > >> >> spray coverage.
>>
>> >> > >> >> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of
>> >> > >> >> garden compost around each vine in the early spring period.I
>> >> > >> >> had not done this previously,since I thought the vines were
>> >> > >> >> vigorous enough in our cool climate.However,although the
>> >> > >> >> vigour has increased somewhat further,the vines look
>> >> > >> >> incredibly healthy,with little powdery mildew, and I had a
>> >> > >> >> very good flower set.I think the compost keeps the soil more
>> >> > >> >> moist,thus avoiding a major powdery mildew attack in very dry
>> >> > >> >> spells.
>>
>> >> > >> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> >> > >> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> >> > > Thanks for those comments.
>>
>> >> > > The article you gave,Paul, is extremely interesting,and seems to
>> >> > > deal exactly with my problems.I will study the article in more
>> >> > > detail,but the comments on timing of removal of laterals seem to
>> >> > > suggest that it is best to remove (or prune to three leaves) most
>> >> > > of Â*these during the early flowering and fruit set period,but
>> >> > > leave them after veraison into the ripening phase.I think this is
>> >> > > something like my practice.I find that I have to remove the
>> >> > > laterals in June,otherwise the canopy becomes a completely tangled
>> >> > > mess (especially this year after using compost)-but this is the
>> >> > > period of flowering and fruitset,so presumably fine.Later from mid
>> >> > > August,the vigour of the canopy slows down,and more laterals can
>> >> > > be left.However I still find myself hedging the top of the
>> >> > > canopy,which creates new growth rapidly-if I do not do this the
>> >> > > canopy can become unstable in quite light winds we have in
>> >> > > September/October.
>>
>> >> > > I was also very interested in the comment from doubi...,that using
>> >> > > compost can add 2 Brix to the juice.I have certainly noted how
>> >> > > much healthier my vines are this year-and more vigorous!! Â*I have
>> >> > > use garden compost plus some added fish blood and bone.Is it
>> >> > > sensible to add compost each year,and in your experience,when is
>> >> > > the best time to add it?
>>
>> >> > > Thanks again,Michael
>>
>> >> > I seriously doubt than adding compost will add 2 brix. Â*I would like
>> >> > to see doubi, or whatever his name actually is, point us to a
>> >> > literature cite.
>>
>> >> > This flies in the face of research that indicates that when you
>> >> > already have vigorous growth, you do not further your problem. Â*I
>> >> > think most research would indicate that increased vegetative growth
>> >> > has a negative effect on grape berry maturity.
>>
>> >> > In my opinion and experience, adding brix is done by increasing
>> >> > growing degree days, hours of sunlight or cropping your vines so
>> >> > that you do not over crop.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> >> > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> >> Hi again,
>> >> Does the ripening process depend on hours of sunlight
>> >> or degree-days.This year my vines are cropping earlier than
>> >> normal.There is also a very heavy crop,probably due to the excellent
>> >> very warm June we had here.Since June the weather here has been
>> >> mediocre during the day with average or slightly below average
>> >> temperatures.However the overnight temperatures have been very
>> >> consistently in the 14-17C minimum range ,which is well above average
>> >> for England.So I am postulating that it is the number of degree-days
>> >> (above 10C I think) over a 24 hr period which is ripening my grapes
>> >> early.There certainly has been a shortage of sunshine this year.
>> >> On the compost question,I thought that it was always useful to add
>> >> compost around the vine (maybe without any added fertiliser
>> >> annually),to avoid the vines roots drying out during a very dry
>> >> spell,which would encourage powdery mildew.My vines are on a s-facing
>> >> slope on dry limestone soil,so always have a tendency to dry out.
>> >> Several books on vineyard management do encourage the use of
>> >> compost,but maybe my vines are vigorous enough.
>> >> Best regards
>> >> Michael

"Michael can easily do an experiment and grow his vineyard differently
in
different rows and compare"

He did, and he seems happy with mulch. Your the one who doesn't accept
his observations.

"The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is
regulated by drip irrigation or nature provides just enough water "

If they mulched they wouldn't need irrigation.

"Genetically grapes could care less about optimum ripening as long as
there
is ample sun and water. "

So they do need water?

"Excessive vigor promotes poor quality wine. *I suppose you disagree
with
this also."

I wrote that mulch actually refrains vigor ( due to it absorbing the
water) while increasing the health of the vine..

"Publish. and have your work peer reviewed."

It's already been done. Grapes are plants. They benefit from mulching.















On Sep 3, 4:07*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> wrote:
> > " The thing(s) that increase
> > brix are more sunlight and more growing degree days."
>
> > That is not true. If what you say is true than growing a vine in the
> > sahara desert would yield the best grapes.
>
> I see, you STILL refuse to state your name and where you live and grow
> grapes and which varieties you grow.
>
> Ever see an oasis in the desert? *Plants there do very well with just a
> little water.
>
> The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is
> regulated by drip irrigation or nature provides just enough water - sort of
> like fine tuning an IV for a Human in the hospital. Drip irrigation is
> usually cut off or reduced to promote better ripening near harvest time.
> In your theory, you would give them all the water they wanted. *The result
> would be extremely long canes with poor fruit.
>
> Genetically grapes could care less about optimum ripening as long as there
> is ample sun and water. Grapes are genetically coded to be climbers and
> reach for the sun. *When water is reduced, the grape vine will stop sending
> energy to the shoot growth and instead put its energy into maturing the
> seeds and fruit to make it more likely birds and other animals will eat
> them, spread their seeds and perpetuate the species. *This is the only
> thing nature cares about - perpetuating the species.
>
>
>
> > "You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell them
> > of
> >> your 2 brix increase revelation. "
>
> > Most viticulturists are like you, they claim that grape vines grow
> > better with no water. Maybe that is why the Fench only have "vintage
> > years" every 20 years or so.
>
> Tell it to the French.
>
> Excessive vigor promotes poor quality wine. *I suppose you disagree with
> this also.
>
> Publish. and have your work peer reviewed. *Most research viticulturists
> would welcome your documented research.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> > "Here in the Mid Atlantic, commercial
> >> growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor."
>
> > And I'm sure they also fertilize.
>
> NO!! most do not fertilize.
>
> > If they put their mouths were their
> > money was they wouldn't feritlize.
>
> They don't.
>
> > BTW, fertilizer is USELESS if there
> > is no water in the soil for the roots to soak it up which blows away
> > your theory about vines growing well in "arid" regions.
>
> The proof is well established. *I think you live in California, right?
> What is the climate in most of the vineyards there? *What is the climate in
> Washington State where grapes are grown. *What is the climate in Argentina
> and Chile where grapes are grown. *Vitis Vinifera originated in Eurasia
> near the Caspian and Black Sea - hardly a tropical paradise.
>
> > While grapes
> > roots do go deep a good percentage of them are near the surface.
>
> Yep, if you water them, you will have a good amount of them near the
> surface.
>
>
>
> > "You will also find many references in the literature that state
> > grapes do no
> >> like wet feet"
>
> > They don't like wet feet. What they like is well drained soil which by
> > design dries out FAST. That is why mulching over optimum soil is the
> > RIGHT thing to do.
>
> Michael can easily do an experiment and grow his vineyard differently in
> different rows and compare.
>
>
>
>
>
> > "
>
> > On Sep 3, 8:43*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >> > Micheal,
>
> >> > Always trust your eyes and keep observing.
>
> >> The very best thing for Michael to do is an experiment where he mulches a
> >> row or rows and leaves the others unmulched and see if he gets the "2
> >> brix" increase on the mulched rows that you claim. The thing(s) that
> >> increase brix are more sunlight and more growing degree days. *Perhaps
> >> the only thing Michael can do is cut down trees or other obstacles
> >> obstructing sunlight.
>
> >> You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell them of
> >> your 2 brix increase revelation. *I am sure you could start a new trend
> >> in grape growing.
>
> >> You never did answer my question that I asked in the past; where are you
> >> growing your grapes and what are you growing?
>
> >> > Paul, without any proof, is
> >> > saying that what I have observed and what you have have observed
> >> > couldn't be true.
>
> >> Paul at least uses his real name.
>
> >> I am saying that I have no doubt that mulching will increase vigor.
> >> Increased vigor in an already vigorous situation will NOT improve grape
> >> quality. *In fact, it will do just the opposite. Do you like your wine to
> >> smell and taste like vegetables? *Here in the Mid Atlantic, commercial
> >> growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor.
>
> >> > It sounds like in your case, mulching has helped
> >> > tremendously. There are many reasons for mulch and the main reason is
> >> > that a healthy vine is a good vine. It's as simple as that.
>
> >> The French say that the best wine is made from the struggling vine.
> >> Hmmm, something to think about there, doublesb.
>
> >> You will also find many references in the literature that state grapes do
> >> no like wet feet. *Grape vine roots can go VERY deep; *deeper than almost
> >> all other plants. *You can not compare the root system of other shallow
> >> rooted plants to grape vines. *Promoting a shallow root system is not a
> >> good thing to do for grape vines. *Also consider where Vitis Vinifera
> >> originated - NOT in parts of the world that had vigorous growth. Also, it
> >> is most successfully grown - in semi arid areas.
>
> >> >> On 3 Sep, 02:50, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
> >> >> > michael wrote:
> >> >> > > On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> >> >> > > wrote:
> >> >> > >> wrote:
> >> >> > >> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area
> >> >> > >> > in ripening fruit."
>
> >> >> > >> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> >> >> > >> > to help ripening."
>
> >> >> > >> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling
> >> >> > >> > leaves doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The
> >> >> > >> > vine takes time to readjust it's physiology to compensate for
> >> >> > >> > the lost leaves. In an environment like yours you need alent
> >> >> > >> > from *the leaves you can get. People who grow grapes in
> >> >> > >> > California or an area with more sunshine and heat have much
> >> >> > >> > more room to hack up the vines, you don't.
>
> >> >> > >> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
> >> >> > >> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments but
> >> >> > >> also note the authors comments about situations of extreme vigor.
>
> >> >> > >>http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>
> >> >> > >> Paul
>
> >> >> > >> >> On Aug 28, 8:36*am, michael >
> >> >> > >> >> wrote: I received some very interesting advice a month or two
> >> >> > >> >> ago,concerning the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes
> >> >> > >> >> trained in the Double Guyot method.I pruned the sidehoots to
> >> >> > >> >> one or two leaves earlier when the canopy was in full
> >> >> > >> >> growth,and since the beginning of August have left more on.I
> >> >> > >> >> removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> >> >> > >> >> to help ripening. I have an excellent crop this year,which
> >> >> > >> >> seems to be ripening well.My mini vineyard is in
> >> >> > >> >> Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied with Brix
> >> >> > >> >> values maximising at about 18 for reds or whites.However one
> >> >> > >> >> of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of weeks before
> >> >> > >> >> harvest,which will be early this year in England.Our
> >> >> > >> >> temperatures have not been great in the daytime at 20-22C,but
> >> >> > >> >> the night time temperatures have not fallen below 15C.I live
> >> >> > >> >> about 120 miles from my vines,so have to make a judgement when
> >> >> > >> >> to visit.The average temperature (24hr average) at present is
> >> >> > >> >> about 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of thumb to
> >> >> > >> >> estimate the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr)
> >> >> > >> >> temperature.
>
> >> >> > >> >> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area
> >> >> > >> >> in ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our
> >> >> > >> >> garden,which produces a good crop of sweet damsons each
> >> >> > >> >> year.This year there has been an enormous crop (twice or three
> >> >> > >> >> times normal),and they have all fallen now,but with none of
> >> >> > >> >> them ripe.I assume that this is the same with vines.The
> >> >> > >> >> balance of leaf to fruit is crucial,and with a large crop,it
> >> >> > >> >> is important to maintain a maximum leaf area,consistent with
> >> >> > >> >> keeping protection against powdery mildew-good air flow and
> >> >> > >> >> spray coverage.
>
> >> >> > >> >> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of
> >> >> > >> >> garden compost around each vine in the early spring period.I
> >> >> > >> >> had not done this previously,since I thought the vines were
> >> >> > >> >> vigorous enough in our cool climate.However,although the
> >> >> > >> >> vigour has increased somewhat further,the vines look
> >> >> > >> >> incredibly healthy,with little powdery mildew, and I had a
> >> >> > >> >> very good flower set.I think the compost keeps the soil more
> >> >> > >> >> moist,thus avoiding a major powdery mildew attack in very dry
> >> >> > >> >> spells.
>
> >> >> > >> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> >> > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> >> >> > > Thanks for those comments.
>
> >> >> > > The article you gave,Paul, is extremely interesting,and seems to
> >> >> > > deal exactly with my problems.I will study the article in more
> >> >> > > detail,but the comments on timing of removal of laterals seem to
> >> >> > > suggest that it is best to remove (or prune to three leaves) most
> >> >> > > of *these during the early flowering and fruit set period,but
> >> >> > > leave them after veraison into the ripening phase.I think this is
> >> >> > > something like
>
> ...
>
> read more »

wrote:

> "Michael can easily do an experiment and grow his vineyard differently
> in
> different rows and compare"
>
> He did, and he seems happy with mulch. Your the one who doesn't accept
> his observations.

I am talking about a trial between rows in the same year!!!
Not one year compared to another.
Also, the crop is not yet in for this year. A vigorous vine does not mean
the fruit is good.

>
> "The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is
> regulated by drip irrigation or nature provides just enough water "
>
> If they mulched they wouldn't need irrigation.

Try drinking wine instead of growing and smoking wacky weed your reasoning
may be better. :-)

>
> "Genetically grapes could care less about optimum ripening as long as
> there
> is ample sun and water. "
>
> So they do need water?

Yes, but a LOT less than other fruits. Ever been to Grand Junction,
Colorado, Moab Utah? Quite a desert environment there and they grow good
fruit - WITHOUT MULCHING.

>
> "Excessive vigor promotes poor quality wine. Â*I suppose you disagree
> with
> this also."
>
> I wrote that mulch actually refrains vigor ( due to it absorbing the
> water) while increasing the health of the vine..
>
> "Publish. and have your work peer reviewed."
>
> It's already been done. Grapes are plants. They benefit from mulching.

As I thought, you are afraid to publish in any magazine read by and
contributed to by viticulturists.

STILL no answer as to where you live and what you are growing. Afraid of
this question? I am also not impressed that you hide behind an alias.

Paul




>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 3, 4:07Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > " The thing(s) that increase
>> > brix are more sunlight and more growing degree days."
>>
>> > That is not true. If what you say is true than growing a vine in the
>> > sahara desert would yield the best grapes.
>>
>> I see, you STILL refuse to state your name and where you live and grow
>> grapes and which varieties you grow.
>>
>> Ever see an oasis in the desert? Â*Plants there do very well with just a
>> little water.
>>
>> The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is
>> regulated by drip irrigation or nature provides just enough water - sort
>> of like fine tuning an IV for a Human in the hospital. Drip irrigation is
>> usually cut off or reduced to promote better ripening near harvest time.
>> In your theory, you would give them all the water they wanted. Â*The
>> result would be extremely long canes with poor fruit.
>>
>> Genetically grapes could care less about optimum ripening as long as
>> there is ample sun and water. Grapes are genetically coded to be climbers
>> and reach for the sun. Â*When water is reduced, the grape vine will stop
>> sending energy to the shoot growth and instead put its energy into
>> maturing the seeds and fruit to make it more likely birds and other
>> animals will eat them, spread their seeds and perpetuate the species.
>> This is the only thing nature cares about - perpetuating the species.
>>
>>
>>
>> > "You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell them
>> > of
>> >> your 2 brix increase revelation. "
>>
>> > Most viticulturists are like you, they claim that grape vines grow
>> > better with no water. Maybe that is why the Fench only have "vintage
>> > years" every 20 years or so.
>>
>> Tell it to the French.
>>
>> Excessive vigor promotes poor quality wine. Â*I suppose you disagree with
>> this also.
>>
>> Publish. and have your work peer reviewed. Â*Most research viticulturists
>> would welcome your documented research.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>> > "Here in the Mid Atlantic, commercial
>> >> growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor."
>>
>> > And I'm sure they also fertilize.
>>
>> NO!! most do not fertilize.
>>
>> > If they put their mouths were their
>> > money was they wouldn't feritlize.
>>
>> They don't.
>>
>> > BTW, fertilizer is USELESS if there
>> > is no water in the soil for the roots to soak it up which blows away
>> > your theory about vines growing well in "arid" regions.
>>
>> The proof is well established. Â*I think you live in California, right?
>> What is the climate in most of the vineyards there? Â*What is the climate
>> in Washington State where grapes are grown. Â*What is the climate in
>> Argentina and Chile where grapes are grown. Â*Vitis Vinifera originated in
>> Eurasia near the Caspian and Black Sea - hardly a tropical paradise.
>>
>> > While grapes
>> > roots do go deep a good percentage of them are near the surface.
>>
>> Yep, if you water them, you will have a good amount of them near the
>> surface.
>>
>>
>>
>> > "You will also find many references in the literature that state
>> > grapes do no
>> >> like wet feet"
>>
>> > They don't like wet feet. What they like is well drained soil which by
>> > design dries out FAST. That is why mulching over optimum soil is the
>> > RIGHT thing to do.
>>
>> Michael can easily do an experiment and grow his vineyard differently in
>> different rows and compare.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > "
>>
>> > On Sep 3, 8:43Â*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Micheal,
>>
>> >> > Always trust your eyes and keep observing.
>>
>> >> The very best thing for Michael to do is an experiment where he
>> >> mulches a row or rows and leaves the others unmulched and see if he
>> >> gets the "2 brix" increase on the mulched rows that you claim. The
>> >> thing(s) that increase brix are more sunlight and more growing degree
>> >> days. Â*Perhaps the only thing Michael can do is cut down trees or
>> >> other obstacles obstructing sunlight.
>>
>> >> You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell them
>> >> of your 2 brix increase revelation. Â*I am sure you could start a new
>> >> trend in grape growing.
>>
>> >> You never did answer my question that I asked in the past; where are
>> >> you growing your grapes and what are you growing?
>>
>> >> > Paul, without any proof, is
>> >> > saying that what I have observed and what you have have observed
>> >> > couldn't be true.
>>
>> >> Paul at least uses his real name.
>>
>> >> I am saying that I have no doubt that mulching will increase vigor.
>> >> Increased vigor in an already vigorous situation will NOT improve
>> >> grape quality. Â*In fact, it will do just the opposite. Do you like
>> >> your wine to smell and taste like vegetables? Â*Here in the Mid
>> >> Atlantic, commercial growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor.
>>
>> >> > It sounds like in your case, mulching has helped
>> >> > tremendously. There are many reasons for mulch and the main reason
>> >> > is that a healthy vine is a good vine. It's as simple as that.
>>
>> >> The French say that the best wine is made from the struggling vine.
>> >> Hmmm, something to think about there, doublesb.
>>
>> >> You will also find many references in the literature that state grapes
>> >> do no like wet feet. Â*Grape vine roots can go VERY deep; Â*deeper than
>> >> almost all other plants. Â*You can not compare the root system of other
>> >> shallow rooted plants to grape vines. Â*Promoting a shallow root system
>> >> is not a good thing to do for grape vines. Â*Also consider where Vitis
>> >> Vinifera originated - NOT in parts of the world that had vigorous
>> >> growth. Also, it is most successfully grown - in semi arid areas.
>>
>> >> >> On 3 Sep, 02:50, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
>> >> >> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> > michael wrote:
>> >> >> > > On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
>> >> >> > > wrote:
>> >> >> > >> wrote:
>> >> >> > >> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf
>> >> >> > >> > area in ripening fruit."
>>
>> >> >> > >> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days
>> >> >> > >> > ago to help ripening."
>>
>> >> >> > >> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling
>> >> >> > >> > leaves doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The
>> >> >> > >> > vine takes time to readjust it's physiology to compensate
>> >> >> > >> > for the lost leaves. In an environment like yours you need
>> >> >> > >> > alent from Â*the leaves you can get. People who grow grapes
>> >> >> > >> > in California or an area with more sunshine and heat have
>> >> >> > >> > much more room to hack up the vines, you don't.
>>
>> >> >> > >> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
>> >> >> > >> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments
>> >> >> > >> but also note the authors comments about situations of extreme
>> >> >> > >> vigor.
>>
>> >> >> > >>http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>>
>> >> >> > >> Paul
>>
>> >> >> > >> >> On Aug 28, 8:36Â*am, michael >
>> >> >> > >> >> wrote: I received some very interesting advice a month or
>> >> >> > >> >> two ago,concerning the thinning of vertical shoots for
>> >> >> > >> >> grapes trained in the Double Guyot method.I pruned the
>> >> >> > >> >> sidehoots to one or two leaves earlier when the canopy was
>> >> >> > >> >> in full growth,and since the beginning of August have left
>> >> >> > >> >> more on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a
>> >> >> > >> >> few days ago to help ripening. I have an excellent crop
>> >> >> > >> >> this year,which seems to be ripening well.My mini vineyard
>> >> >> > >> >> is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
>> >> >> > >> >> with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or
>> >> >> > >> >> whites.However one of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple
>> >> >> > >> >> of weeks before harvest,which will be early this year in
>> >> >> > >> >> England.Our temperatures have not been great in the daytime
>> >> >> > >> >> at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures have not fallen
>> >> >> > >> >> below 15C.I live about 120 miles from my vines,so have to
>> >> >> > >> >> make a judgement when to visit.The average temperature
>> >> >> > >> >> (24hr average) at present is about 15C,and I am wondering
>> >> >> > >> >> if anyone uses a rule of thumb to estimate the increase in
>> >> >> > >> >> Brix/day for a given average(24hr) temperature.
>>
>> >> >> > >> >> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf
>> >> >> > >> >> area in ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our
>> >> >> > >> >> garden,which produces a good crop of sweet damsons each
>> >> >> > >> >> year.This year there has been an enormous crop (twice or
>> >> >> > >> >> three times normal),and they have all fallen now,but with
>> >> >> > >> >> none of them ripe.I assume that this is the same with
>> >> >> > >> >> vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is crucial,and with a
>> >> >> > >> >> large crop,it is important to maintain a maximum leaf
>> >> >> > >> >> area,consistent with keeping protection against powdery
>> >> >> > >> >> mildew-good air flow and spray coverage.
>>
>> >> >> > >> >> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of
>> >> >> > >> >> garden compost around each vine in the early spring
>> >> >> > >> >> period.I had not done this previously,since I thought the
>> >> >> > >> >> vines were vigorous enough in our cool
>> >> >> > >> >> climate.However,although the vigour has increased somewhat
>> >> >> > >> >> further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with little
>> >> >> > >> >> powdery mildew, and I had a very good flower set.I think
>> >> >> > >> >> the compost keeps the soil more moist,thus avoiding a major
>> >> >> > >> >> powdery mildew attack in very dry spells.
>>
>> >> >> > >> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> >> >> > >> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> >> >> > > Thanks for those comments.
>>
>> >> >> > > The article you gave,Paul, is extremely interesting,and seems
>> >> >> > > to deal exactly with my problems.I will study the article in
>> >> >> > > more detail,but the comments on timing of removal of laterals
>> >> >> > > seem to suggest that it is best to remove (or prune to three
>> >> >> > > leaves) most of Â*these during the early flowering and fruit set
>> >> >> > > period,but leave them after veraison into the ripening phase.I
>> >> >> > > think this is something like
>>
>> ...
>>
>> read more »

Paul,

The more I read this statement, the more I laugh.

""The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is
regulated by drip irrigation "

So much for natural "terroir".

BTW, the french are great winemakers but are average winegrowers.


On Sep 3, 7:45*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> wrote:
> > "Michael can easily do an experiment and grow his vineyard differently
> > in
> > *different rows and compare"
>
> > He did, and he seems happy with mulch. Your the one who doesn't accept
> > his observations.
>
> I am talking about a trial between rows in the same year!!!
> Not one year compared to another. *
> Also, the crop is not yet in for this year. *A vigorous vine does not mean
> the fruit is good.
>
>
>
> > "The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is
> > *regulated by drip irrigation or nature provides just enough water "
>
> > If they mulched they wouldn't need irrigation.
>
> Try drinking wine instead of growing and smoking wacky weed your reasoning
> may be better. :-)
>
>
>
> > "Genetically grapes could care less about optimum ripening as long as
> > there
> > *is ample sun and water. "
>
> > So they do need water?
>
> Yes, but a LOT less than other fruits. *Ever been to Grand Junction,
> Colorado, Moab Utah? *Quite a desert environment there and they grow good
> fruit - WITHOUT MULCHING.
>
>
>
> > "Excessive vigor promotes poor quality wine. *I suppose you disagree
> > with
> > *this also."
>
> > I wrote that mulch actually refrains vigor ( due to it absorbing the
> > water) while increasing the health of the vine..
>
> > "Publish. and have your work peer reviewed."
>
> > It's already been done. Grapes are plants. They benefit from mulching.
>
> As I thought, you are afraid to publish in any magazine read by and
> contributed to by viticulturists.
>
> STILL no answer as to where you live and what you are growing. *Afraid of
> this question? *I am also not impressed that you hide behind an alias.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 3, 4:07*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >> > " The thing(s) that increase
> >> > brix are more sunlight and more growing degree days."
>
> >> > That is not true. If what you say is true than growing a vine in the
> >> > sahara desert would yield the best grapes.
>
> >> I see, you STILL refuse to state your name and where you live and grow
> >> grapes and which varieties you grow.
>
> >> Ever see an oasis in the desert? *Plants there do very well with just a
> >> little water.
>
> >> The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is
> >> regulated by drip irrigation or nature provides just enough water - sort
> >> of like fine tuning an IV for a Human in the hospital. Drip irrigation is
> >> usually cut off or reduced to promote better ripening near harvest time.
> >> In your theory, you would give them all the water they wanted. *The
> >> result would be extremely long canes with poor fruit.
>
> >> Genetically grapes could care less about optimum ripening as long as
> >> there is ample sun and water. Grapes are genetically coded to be climbers
> >> and reach for the sun. *When water is reduced, the grape vine will stop
> >> sending energy to the shoot growth and instead put its energy into
> >> maturing the seeds and fruit to make it more likely birds and other
> >> animals will eat them, spread their seeds and perpetuate the species.
> >> This is the only thing nature cares about - perpetuating the species.
>
> >> > "You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell them
> >> > of
> >> >> your 2 brix increase revelation. "
>
> >> > Most viticulturists are like you, they claim that grape vines grow
> >> > better with no water. Maybe that is why the Fench only have "vintage
> >> > years" every 20 years or so.
>
> >> Tell it to the French.
>
> >> Excessive vigor promotes poor quality wine. *I suppose you disagree with
> >> this also.
>
> >> Publish. and have your work peer reviewed. *Most research viticulturists
> >> would welcome your documented research.
>
> >> Paul
>
> >> > "Here in the Mid Atlantic, commercial
> >> >> growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor."
>
> >> > And I'm sure they also fertilize.
>
> >> NO!! most do not fertilize.
>
> >> > If they put their mouths were their
> >> > money was they wouldn't feritlize.
>
> >> They don't.
>
> >> > BTW, fertilizer is USELESS if there
> >> > is no water in the soil for the roots to soak it up which blows away
> >> > your theory about vines growing well in "arid" regions.
>
> >> The proof is well established. *I think you live in California, right?
> >> What is the climate in most of the vineyards there? *What is the climate
> >> in Washington State where grapes are grown. *What is the climate in
> >> Argentina and Chile where grapes are grown. *Vitis Vinifera originated in
> >> Eurasia near the Caspian and Black Sea - hardly a tropical paradise.
>
> >> > While grapes
> >> > roots do go deep a good percentage of them are near the surface.
>
> >> Yep, if you water them, you will have a good amount of them near the
> >> surface.
>
> >> > "You will also find many references in the literature that state
> >> > grapes do no
> >> >> like wet feet"
>
> >> > They don't like wet feet. What they like is well drained soil which by
> >> > design dries out FAST. That is why mulching over optimum soil is the
> >> > RIGHT thing to do.
>
> >> Michael can easily do an experiment and grow his vineyard differently in
> >> different rows and compare.
>
> >> > "
>
> >> > On Sep 3, 8:43*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > Micheal,
>
> >> >> > Always trust your eyes and keep observing.
>
> >> >> The very best thing for Michael to do is an experiment where he
> >> >> mulches a row or rows and leaves the others unmulched and see if he
> >> >> gets the "2 brix" increase on the mulched rows that you claim. The
> >> >> thing(s) that increase brix are more sunlight and more growing degree
> >> >> days. *Perhaps the only thing Michael can do is cut down trees or
> >> >> other obstacles obstructing sunlight.
>
> >> >> You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell them
> >> >> of your 2 brix increase revelation. *I am sure you could start a new
> >> >> trend in grape growing.
>
> >> >> You never did answer my question that I asked in the past; where are
> >> >> you growing your grapes and what are you growing?
>
> >> >> > Paul, without any proof, is
> >> >> > saying that what I have observed and what you have have observed
> >> >> > couldn't be true.
>
> >> >> Paul at least uses his real name.
>
> >> >> I am saying that I have no doubt that mulching will increase vigor.
> >> >> Increased vigor in an already vigorous situation will NOT improve
> >> >> grape quality. *In fact, it will do just the opposite. Do you like
> >> >> your wine to smell and taste like vegetables? *Here in the Mid
> >> >> Atlantic, commercial growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor.
>
> >> >> > It sounds like in your case, mulching has helped
> >> >> > tremendously. There are many reasons for mulch and the main reason
> >> >> > is that a healthy vine is a good vine. It's as simple as that.
>
> >> >> The French say that the best wine is made from the struggling vine.
> >> >> Hmmm, something to think about there, doublesb.
>
> >> >> You will also find many references in the literature that state grapes
> >> >> do no like wet feet. *Grape vine roots can go VERY deep; *deeper than
> >> >> almost all other plants. *You can not compare the root system of other
> >> >> shallow rooted plants to grape vines. *Promoting a shallow root system
> >> >> is not a good thing to do for grape vines. *Also consider where Vitis
> >> >> Vinifera originated - NOT in parts of the world that had vigorous
> >> >> growth. Also, it is most successfully grown - in semi arid areas.
>
> >> >> >> On 3 Sep, 02:50, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> >> >> >> wrote:
>
> >> >> >> > michael wrote:
> >> >> >> > > On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> >> >> >> > > wrote:
> >> >> >> > >> wrote:
> >> >> >> > >> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf
> >> >> >> > >> > area in ripening fruit."
>
> >> >> >> > >> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days
> >> >> >> > >> > ago to help ripening."
>
> >> >> >> > >> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling
> >> >> >> > >> > leaves doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The
> >> >> >> > >> > vine takes time to readjust it's physiology to compensate
> >> >> >> > >> > for the lost leaves. In an environment like yours you need
> >> >> >> > >> > alent from *the leaves you can get. People who grow grapes
> >> >> >> > >> > in California or an area with more sunshine and heat have
> >> >> >> > >> > much more room to hack up the vines, you don't.
>
> >> >> >> > >> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
> >> >> >> > >> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments
> >> >> >> > >> but also note the authors comments about situations of extreme
> >> >> >> > >> vigor.
>
> >> >> >> > >>http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>
> >> >> >> > >> Paul
>
> >> >> >> > >> >> On Aug 28, 8:36*am, michael >
> >> >> >> > >> >> wrote: I received some very interesting advice a month or
> >> >> >> > >> >> two ago,concerning the thinning of vertical shoots for
> >> >> >> > >> >> grapes trained in the Double Guyot method.I pruned the
> >> >> >> > >> >> sidehoots to one or two leaves earlier when the canopy was
> >> >> >> > >> >> in full growth,and since the beginning of August have left
> >> >> >> > >> >> more on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a
> >> >> >> > >> >> few days ago to help ripening. I have an excellent crop
> >> >> >> > >> >> this year,which seems to be ripening well.My mini vineyard
> >> >> >> > >> >> is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
> >> >> >> > >> >> with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or
> >> >> >> > >> >> whites.However one of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple
> >> >> >> > >> >> of weeks before harvest,which will be early this year in
> >> >> >> > >> >> England.Our temperatures have not been great in the daytime
> >> >> >> > >> >> at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures have not fallen
> >> >> >> > >> >> below
>
> ...
>
> read more »

"As I thought, you are afraid to publish in any magazine read by and
contributed to by viticulturists."

Viticuluralists are off in orbit when it comes to farming. I've had
enough experience with them to know they would never make it if they
had to grow something that was actually hard to grow. They end up
killing more vines than they cultivate. The main reason for it is that
they all think that what works in Maryland will work in England and
will pound the table trying to convince you. Your insistence that
Michael couldn't possibly be seeing positive effects from mulch is par
for the course.



On Sep 3, 7:45*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> wrote:
> > "Michael can easily do an experiment and grow his vineyard differently
> > in
> > *different rows and compare"
>
> > He did, and he seems happy with mulch. Your the one who doesn't accept
> > his observations.
>
> I am talking about a trial between rows in the same year!!!
> Not one year compared to another. *
> Also, the crop is not yet in for this year. *A vigorous vine does not mean
> the fruit is good.
>
>
>
> > "The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is
> > *regulated by drip irrigation or nature provides just enough water "
>
> > If they mulched they wouldn't need irrigation.
>
> Try drinking wine instead of growing and smoking wacky weed your reasoning
> may be better. :-)
>
>
>
> > "Genetically grapes could care less about optimum ripening as long as
> > there
> > *is ample sun and water. "
>
> > So they do need water?
>
> Yes, but a LOT less than other fruits. *Ever been to Grand Junction,
> Colorado, Moab Utah? *Quite a desert environment there and they grow good
> fruit - WITHOUT MULCHING.
>
>
>
> > "Excessive vigor promotes poor quality wine. *I suppose you disagree
> > with
> > *this also."
>
> > I wrote that mulch actually refrains vigor ( due to it absorbing the
> > water) while increasing the health of the vine..
>
> > "Publish. and have your work peer reviewed."
>
> > It's already been done. Grapes are plants. They benefit from mulching.
>
> As I thought, you are afraid to publish in any magazine read by and
> contributed to by viticulturists.
>
> STILL no answer as to where you live and what you are growing. *Afraid of
> this question? *I am also not impressed that you hide behind an alias.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 3, 4:07*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >> > " The thing(s) that increase
> >> > brix are more sunlight and more growing degree days."
>
> >> > That is not true. If what you say is true than growing a vine in the
> >> > sahara desert would yield the best grapes.
>
> >> I see, you STILL refuse to state your name and where you live and grow
> >> grapes and which varieties you grow.
>
> >> Ever see an oasis in the desert? *Plants there do very well with just a
> >> little water.
>
> >> The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is
> >> regulated by drip irrigation or nature provides just enough water - sort
> >> of like fine tuning an IV for a Human in the hospital. Drip irrigation is
> >> usually cut off or reduced to promote better ripening near harvest time.
> >> In your theory, you would give them all the water they wanted. *The
> >> result would be extremely long canes with poor fruit.
>
> >> Genetically grapes could care less about optimum ripening as long as
> >> there is ample sun and water. Grapes are genetically coded to be climbers
> >> and reach for the sun. *When water is reduced, the grape vine will stop
> >> sending energy to the shoot growth and instead put its energy into
> >> maturing the seeds and fruit to make it more likely birds and other
> >> animals will eat them, spread their seeds and perpetuate the species.
> >> This is the only thing nature cares about - perpetuating the species.
>
> >> > "You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell them
> >> > of
> >> >> your 2 brix increase revelation. "
>
> >> > Most viticulturists are like you, they claim that grape vines grow
> >> > better with no water. Maybe that is why the Fench only have "vintage
> >> > years" every 20 years or so.
>
> >> Tell it to the French.
>
> >> Excessive vigor promotes poor quality wine. *I suppose you disagree with
> >> this also.
>
> >> Publish. and have your work peer reviewed. *Most research viticulturists
> >> would welcome your documented research.
>
> >> Paul
>
> >> > "Here in the Mid Atlantic, commercial
> >> >> growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor."
>
> >> > And I'm sure they also fertilize.
>
> >> NO!! most do not fertilize.
>
> >> > If they put their mouths were their
> >> > money was they wouldn't feritlize.
>
> >> They don't.
>
> >> > BTW, fertilizer is USELESS if there
> >> > is no water in the soil for the roots to soak it up which blows away
> >> > your theory about vines growing well in "arid" regions.
>
> >> The proof is well established. *I think you live in California, right?
> >> What is the climate in most of the vineyards there? *What is the climate
> >> in Washington State where grapes are grown. *What is the climate in
> >> Argentina and Chile where grapes are grown. *Vitis Vinifera originated in
> >> Eurasia near the Caspian and Black Sea - hardly a tropical paradise.
>
> >> > While grapes
> >> > roots do go deep a good percentage of them are near the surface.
>
> >> Yep, if you water them, you will have a good amount of them near the
> >> surface.
>
> >> > "You will also find many references in the literature that state
> >> > grapes do no
> >> >> like wet feet"
>
> >> > They don't like wet feet. What they like is well drained soil which by
> >> > design dries out FAST. That is why mulching over optimum soil is the
> >> > RIGHT thing to do.
>
> >> Michael can easily do an experiment and grow his vineyard differently in
> >> different rows and compare.
>
> >> > "
>
> >> > On Sep 3, 8:43*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > Micheal,
>
> >> >> > Always trust your eyes and keep observing.
>
> >> >> The very best thing for Michael to do is an experiment where he
> >> >> mulches a row or rows and leaves the others unmulched and see if he
> >> >> gets the "2 brix" increase on the mulched rows that you claim. The
> >> >> thing(s) that increase brix are more sunlight and more growing degree
> >> >> days. *Perhaps the only thing Michael can do is cut down trees or
> >> >> other obstacles obstructing sunlight.
>
> >> >> You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell them
> >> >> of your 2 brix increase revelation. *I am sure you could start a new
> >> >> trend in grape growing.
>
> >> >> You never did answer my question that I asked in the past; where are
> >> >> you growing your grapes and what are you growing?
>
> >> >> > Paul, without any proof, is
> >> >> > saying that what I have observed and what you have have observed
> >> >> > couldn't be true.
>
> >> >> Paul at least uses his real name.
>
> >> >> I am saying that I have no doubt that mulching will increase vigor.
> >> >> Increased vigor in an already vigorous situation will NOT improve
> >> >> grape quality. *In fact, it will do just the opposite. Do you like
> >> >> your wine to smell and taste like vegetables? *Here in the Mid
> >> >> Atlantic, commercial growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor.
>
> >> >> > It sounds like in your case, mulching has helped
> >> >> > tremendously. There are many reasons for mulch and the main reason
> >> >> > is that a healthy vine is a good vine. It's as simple as that.
>
> >> >> The French say that the best wine is made from the struggling vine.
> >> >> Hmmm, something to think about there, doublesb.
>
> >> >> You will also find many references in the literature that state grapes
> >> >> do no like wet feet. *Grape vine roots can go VERY deep; *deeper than
> >> >> almost all other plants. *You can not compare the root system of other
> >> >> shallow rooted plants to grape vines. *Promoting a shallow root system
> >> >> is not a good thing to do for grape vines. *Also consider where Vitis
> >> >> Vinifera originated - NOT in parts of the world that had vigorous
> >> >> growth. Also, it is most successfully grown - in semi arid areas.
>
> >> >> >> On 3 Sep, 02:50, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> >> >> >> wrote:
>
> >> >> >> > michael wrote:
> >> >> >> > > On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> >> >> >> > > wrote:
> >> >> >> > >> wrote:
> >> >> >> > >> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf
> >> >> >> > >> > area in ripening fruit."
>
> >> >> >> > >> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days
> >> >> >> > >> > ago to help ripening."
>
> >> >> >> > >> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling
> >> >> >> > >> > leaves doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The
> >> >> >> > >> > vine takes time to readjust it's physiology to compensate
> >> >> >> > >> > for the lost leaves. In an environment like yours you need
> >> >> >> > >> > alent from *the leaves you can get. People who grow grapes
> >> >> >> > >> > in California or an area with more sunshine and heat have
> >> >> >> > >> > much more room to hack up the vines, you don't.
>
> >> >> >> > >> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
> >> >> >> > >> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments
> >> >> >> > >> but also note the authors comments about situations of extreme
> >> >> >> > >> vigor.
>
> >> >> >> > >>http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>
> >> >> >> > >> Paul
>
> >> >> >> > >> >> On Aug 28, 8:36*am, michael >
> >> >> >> > >> >> wrote: I received some very interesting advice a month or
> >> >> >> > >> >> two ago,concerning the thinning of vertical shoots for
> >> >> >> > >> >> grapes trained in the Double Guyot method.I pruned the
> >> >> >> > >> >> sidehoots to one or two leaves earlier when the canopy was
> >> >> >> > >> >> in full growth,and since the beginning of August have left
> >> >> >> > >> >> more on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a
> >> >> >> > >> >> few days ago to help ripening. I have an excellent crop
> >> >> >> > >> >> this year,which seems to be ripening well.My mini vineyard
> >> >> >> > >> >> is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
> >> >> >> > >> >> with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or
> >> >> >> > >> >> whites.However one of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple
> >> >> >> > >> >> of weeks before harvest,which will be early this year in
> >> >> >> > >> >> England.Our temperatures have not been great in the daytime
> >> >> >> > >> >> at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures have not fallen
> >> >> >> > >> >> below
>
> ...
>
> read more »

Paul,

What type of soil do you have down there in Maryland that promotes so
much vigor? I, like Michael, grow my vines on WELL DRAINED soil. My
soil is sand. Not sandy loam, sand. I think what the problem is in our
disagreement is that Maryland doesn't really have optimum soil to grow
grapes to begin with so your viticultural practices are aimed at
correcting the biggest mistake you can make as a "expert"
viticuluralist, site selection.


On Sep 4, 6:25*am, wrote:
> "As I thought, you are afraid to publish in any magazine read by and
> contributed to by viticulturists."
>
> Viticuluralists are off in orbit when it comes to farming. I've had
> enough experience with them to know they would never make it if they
> had to grow something that was actually hard to grow. They end up
> killing more vines than they cultivate. The main reason for it is that
> they all think that what works in Maryland will work in England and
> will pound the table trying to convince you. Your insistence that
> Michael couldn't possibly be seeing positive effects from mulch is par
> for the course.
>
> On Sep 3, 7:45*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > > "Michael can easily do an experiment and grow his vineyard differently
> > > in
> > > *different rows and compare"
>
> > > He did, and he seems happy with mulch. Your the one who doesn't accept
> > > his observations.
>
> > I am talking about a trial between rows in the same year!!!
> > Not one year compared to another. *
> > Also, the crop is not yet in for this year. *A vigorous vine does not mean
> > the fruit is good.
>
> > > "The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is
> > > *regulated by drip irrigation or nature provides just enough water "
>
> > > If they mulched they wouldn't need irrigation.
>
> > Try drinking wine instead of growing and smoking wacky weed your reasoning
> > may be better. :-)
>
> > > "Genetically grapes could care less about optimum ripening as long as
> > > there
> > > *is ample sun and water. "
>
> > > So they do need water?
>
> > Yes, but a LOT less than other fruits. *Ever been to Grand Junction,
> > Colorado, Moab Utah? *Quite a desert environment there and they grow good
> > fruit - WITHOUT MULCHING.
>
> > > "Excessive vigor promotes poor quality wine. *I suppose you disagree
> > > with
> > > *this also."
>
> > > I wrote that mulch actually refrains vigor ( due to it absorbing the
> > > water) while increasing the health of the vine..
>
> > > "Publish. and have your work peer reviewed."
>
> > > It's already been done. Grapes are plants. They benefit from mulching..
>
> > As I thought, you are afraid to publish in any magazine read by and
> > contributed to by viticulturists.
>
> > STILL no answer as to where you live and what you are growing. *Afraid of
> > this question? *I am also not impressed that you hide behind an alias..
>
> > Paul
>
> > > On Sep 3, 4:07*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > " The thing(s) that increase
> > >> > brix are more sunlight and more growing degree days."
>
> > >> > That is not true. If what you say is true than growing a vine in the
> > >> > sahara desert would yield the best grapes.
>
> > >> I see, you STILL refuse to state your name and where you live and grow
> > >> grapes and which varieties you grow.
>
> > >> Ever see an oasis in the desert? *Plants there do very well with just a
> > >> little water.
>
> > >> The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is
> > >> regulated by drip irrigation or nature provides just enough water - sort
> > >> of like fine tuning an IV for a Human in the hospital. Drip irrigation is
> > >> usually cut off or reduced to promote better ripening near harvest time.
> > >> In your theory, you would give them all the water they wanted. *The
> > >> result would be extremely long canes with poor fruit.
>
> > >> Genetically grapes could care less about optimum ripening as long as
> > >> there is ample sun and water. Grapes are genetically coded to be climbers
> > >> and reach for the sun. *When water is reduced, the grape vine will stop
> > >> sending energy to the shoot growth and instead put its energy into
> > >> maturing the seeds and fruit to make it more likely birds and other
> > >> animals will eat them, spread their seeds and perpetuate the species..
> > >> This is the only thing nature cares about - perpetuating the species..
>
> > >> > "You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell them
> > >> > of
> > >> >> your 2 brix increase revelation. "
>
> > >> > Most viticulturists are like you, they claim that grape vines grow
> > >> > better with no water. Maybe that is why the Fench only have "vintage
> > >> > years" every 20 years or so.
>
> > >> Tell it to the French.
>
> > >> Excessive vigor promotes poor quality wine. *I suppose you disagree with
> > >> this also.
>
> > >> Publish. and have your work peer reviewed. *Most research viticulturists
> > >> would welcome your documented research.
>
> > >> Paul
>
> > >> > "Here in the Mid Atlantic, commercial
> > >> >> growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor."
>
> > >> > And I'm sure they also fertilize.
>
> > >> NO!! most do not fertilize.
>
> > >> > If they put their mouths were their
> > >> > money was they wouldn't feritlize.
>
> > >> They don't.
>
> > >> > BTW, fertilizer is USELESS if there
> > >> > is no water in the soil for the roots to soak it up which blows away
> > >> > your theory about vines growing well in "arid" regions.
>
> > >> The proof is well established. *I think you live in California, right?
> > >> What is the climate in most of the vineyards there? *What is the climate
> > >> in Washington State where grapes are grown. *What is the climate in
> > >> Argentina and Chile where grapes are grown. *Vitis Vinifera originated in
> > >> Eurasia near the Caspian and Black Sea - hardly a tropical paradise.
>
> > >> > While grapes
> > >> > roots do go deep a good percentage of them are near the surface.
>
> > >> Yep, if you water them, you will have a good amount of them near the
> > >> surface.
>
> > >> > "You will also find many references in the literature that state
> > >> > grapes do no
> > >> >> like wet feet"
>
> > >> > They don't like wet feet. What they like is well drained soil which by
> > >> > design dries out FAST. That is why mulching over optimum soil is the
> > >> > RIGHT thing to do.
>
> > >> Michael can easily do an experiment and grow his vineyard differently in
> > >> different rows and compare.
>
> > >> > "
>
> > >> > On Sep 3, 8:43*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > >> >> wrote:
> > >> >> > Micheal,
>
> > >> >> > Always trust your eyes and keep observing.
>
> > >> >> The very best thing for Michael to do is an experiment where he
> > >> >> mulches a row or rows and leaves the others unmulched and see if he
> > >> >> gets the "2 brix" increase on the mulched rows that you claim. The
> > >> >> thing(s) that increase brix are more sunlight and more growing degree
> > >> >> days. *Perhaps the only thing Michael can do is cut down trees or
> > >> >> other obstacles obstructing sunlight.
>
> > >> >> You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell them
> > >> >> of your 2 brix increase revelation. *I am sure you could start a new
> > >> >> trend in grape growing.
>
> > >> >> You never did answer my question that I asked in the past; where are
> > >> >> you growing your grapes and what are you growing?
>
> > >> >> > Paul, without any proof, is
> > >> >> > saying that what I have observed and what you have have observed
> > >> >> > couldn't be true.
>
> > >> >> Paul at least uses his real name.
>
> > >> >> I am saying that I have no doubt that mulching will increase vigor.

wrote:

> Paul,
>
> The more I read this statement, the more I laugh.
>
> ""The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is
> regulated by drip irrigation "

In the "New World" this is true.

>
> So much for natural "terroir".
>
> BTW, the french are great winemakers but are average winegrowers.

The french also say that "Wine is made on the vine"



>
>
> On Sep 3, 7:45Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > "Michael can easily do an experiment and grow his vineyard differently
>> > in
>> > different rows and compare"
>>
>> > He did, and he seems happy with mulch. Your the one who doesn't accept
>> > his observations.
>>
>> I am talking about a trial between rows in the same year!!!
>> Not one year compared to another.
>> Also, the crop is not yet in for this year. Â*A vigorous vine does not
>> mean the fruit is good.
>>
>>
>>
>> > "The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is
>> > regulated by drip irrigation or nature provides just enough water "
>>
>> > If they mulched they wouldn't need irrigation.
>>
>> Try drinking wine instead of growing and smoking wacky weed your
>> reasoning may be better. :-)
>>
>>
>>
>> > "Genetically grapes could care less about optimum ripening as long as
>> > there
>> > is ample sun and water. "
>>
>> > So they do need water?
>>
>> Yes, but a LOT less than other fruits. Â*Ever been to Grand Junction,
>> Colorado, Moab Utah? Â*Quite a desert environment there and they grow good
>> fruit - WITHOUT MULCHING.
>>
>>
>>
>> > "Excessive vigor promotes poor quality wine. Â*I suppose you disagree
>> > with
>> > this also."
>>
>> > I wrote that mulch actually refrains vigor ( due to it absorbing the
>> > water) while increasing the health of the vine..
>>
>> > "Publish. and have your work peer reviewed."
>>
>> > It's already been done. Grapes are plants. They benefit from mulching.
>>
>> As I thought, you are afraid to publish in any magazine read by and
>> contributed to by viticulturists.
>>
>> STILL no answer as to where you live and what you are growing. Â*Afraid of
>> this question? Â*I am also not impressed that you hide behind an alias.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sep 3, 4:07Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > " The thing(s) that increase
>> >> > brix are more sunlight and more growing degree days."
>>
>> >> > That is not true. If what you say is true than growing a vine in the
>> >> > sahara desert would yield the best grapes.
>>
>> >> I see, you STILL refuse to state your name and where you live and grow
>> >> grapes and which varieties you grow.
>>
>> >> Ever see an oasis in the desert? Â*Plants there do very well with just
>> >> a little water.
>>
>> >> The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is
>> >> regulated by drip irrigation or nature provides just enough water -
>> >> sort of like fine tuning an IV for a Human in the hospital. Drip
>> >> irrigation is usually cut off or reduced to promote better ripening
>> >> near harvest time. In your theory, you would give them all the water
>> >> they wanted. Â*The result would be extremely long canes with poor
>> >> fruit.
>>
>> >> Genetically grapes could care less about optimum ripening as long as
>> >> there is ample sun and water. Grapes are genetically coded to be
>> >> climbers and reach for the sun. Â*When water is reduced, the grape vine
>> >> will stop sending energy to the shoot growth and instead put its
>> >> energy into maturing the seeds and fruit to make it more likely birds
>> >> and other animals will eat them, spread their seeds and perpetuate the
>> >> species. This is the only thing nature cares about - perpetuating the
>> >> species.
>>
>> >> > "You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell
>> >> > them of
>> >> >> your 2 brix increase revelation. "
>>
>> >> > Most viticulturists are like you, they claim that grape vines grow
>> >> > better with no water. Maybe that is why the Fench only have "vintage
>> >> > years" every 20 years or so.
>>
>> >> Tell it to the French.
>>
>> >> Excessive vigor promotes poor quality wine. Â*I suppose you disagree
>> >> with this also.
>>
>> >> Publish. and have your work peer reviewed. Â*Most research
>> >> viticulturists would welcome your documented research.
>>
>> >> Paul
>>
>> >> > "Here in the Mid Atlantic, commercial
>> >> >> growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor."
>>
>> >> > And I'm sure they also fertilize.
>>
>> >> NO!! most do not fertilize.
>>
>> >> > If they put their mouths were their
>> >> > money was they wouldn't feritlize.
>>
>> >> They don't.
>>
>> >> > BTW, fertilizer is USELESS if there
>> >> > is no water in the soil for the roots to soak it up which blows away
>> >> > your theory about vines growing well in "arid" regions.
>>
>> >> The proof is well established. Â*I think you live in California, right?
>> >> What is the climate in most of the vineyards there? Â*What is the
>> >> climate in Washington State where grapes are grown. Â*What is the
>> >> climate in Argentina and Chile where grapes are grown. Â*Vitis Vinifera
>> >> originated in Eurasia near the Caspian and Black Sea - hardly a
>> >> tropical paradise.
>>
>> >> > While grapes
>> >> > roots do go deep a good percentage of them are near the surface.
>>
>> >> Yep, if you water them, you will have a good amount of them near the
>> >> surface.
>>
>> >> > "You will also find many references in the literature that state
>> >> > grapes do no
>> >> >> like wet feet"
>>
>> >> > They don't like wet feet. What they like is well drained soil which
>> >> > by design dries out FAST. That is why mulching over optimum soil is
>> >> > the RIGHT thing to do.
>>
>> >> Michael can easily do an experiment and grow his vineyard differently
>> >> in different rows and compare.
>>
>> >> > "
>>
>> >> > On Sep 3, 8:43Â*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > Micheal,
>>
>> >> >> > Always trust your eyes and keep observing.
>>
>> >> >> The very best thing for Michael to do is an experiment where he
>> >> >> mulches a row or rows and leaves the others unmulched and see if he
>> >> >> gets the "2 brix" increase on the mulched rows that you claim. The
>> >> >> thing(s) that increase brix are more sunlight and more growing
>> >> >> degree days. Â*Perhaps the only thing Michael can do is cut down
>> >> >> trees or other obstacles obstructing sunlight.
>>
>> >> >> You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell
>> >> >> them of your 2 brix increase revelation. Â*I am sure you could start
>> >> >> a new trend in grape growing.
>>
>> >> >> You never did answer my question that I asked in the past; where
>> >> >> are you growing your grapes and what are you growing?
>>
>> >> >> > Paul, without any proof, is
>> >> >> > saying that what I have observed and what you have have observed
>> >> >> > couldn't be true.
>>
>> >> >> Paul at least uses his real name.
>>
>> >> >> I am saying that I have no doubt that mulching will increase vigor.
>> >> >> Increased vigor in an already vigorous situation will NOT improve
>> >> >> grape quality. Â*In fact, it will do just the opposite. Do you like
>> >> >> your wine to smell and taste like vegetables? Â*Here in the Mid
>> >> >> Atlantic, commercial growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor.
>>
>> >> >> > It sounds like in your case, mulching has helped
>> >> >> > tremendously. There are many reasons for mulch and the main
>> >> >> > reason is that a healthy vine is a good vine. It's as simple as
>> >> >> > that.
>>
>> >> >> The French say that the best wine is made from the struggling vine.
>> >> >> Hmmm, something to think about there, doublesb.
>>
>> >> >> You will also find many references in the literature that state
>> >> >> grapes do no like wet feet. Â*Grape vine roots can go VERY deep;
>> >> >> deeper than almost all other plants. Â*You can not compare the root
>> >> >> system of other shallow rooted plants to grape vines. Â*Promoting a
>> >> >> shallow root system is not a good thing to do for grape vines.
>> >> >> Also consider where Vitis Vinifera originated - NOT in parts of the
>> >> >> world that had vigorous growth. Also, it is most successfully grown
>> >> >> - in semi arid areas.
>>
>> >> >> >> On 3 Sep, 02:50, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >> > michael wrote:
>> >> >> >> > > On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann"
>> >> >> >> > > > wrote:
>> >> >> >> > >> wrote:
>> >> >> >> > >> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf
>> >> >> >> > >> > area in ripening fruit."
>>
>> >> >> >> > >> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few
>> >> >> >> > >> > days ago to help ripening."
>>
>> >> >> >> > >> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment.
>> >> >> >> > >> > Pulling leaves doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will
>> >> >> >> > >> > delay it. The vine takes time to readjust it's physiology
>> >> >> >> > >> > to compensate for the lost leaves. In an environment like
>> >> >> >> > >> > yours you need alent from Â*the leaves you can get. People
>> >> >> >> > >> > who grow grapes in California or an area with more
>> >> >> >> > >> > sunshine and heat have much more room to hack up the
>> >> >> >> > >> > vines, you don't.
>>
>> >> >> >> > >> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
>> >> >> >> > >> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments
>> >> >> >> > >> but also note the authors comments about situations of
>> >> >> >> > >> extreme vigor.
>>
>> >> >> >> > >>http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>>
>> >> >> >> > >> Paul
>>
>> >> >> >> > >> >> On Aug 28, 8:36Â*am, michael
>> >> >> >> > >> >> > wrote: I received some
>> >> >> >> > >> >> very interesting advice a month or two ago,concerning
>> >> >> >> > >> >> the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained in
>> >> >> >> > >> >> the Double Guyot method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or
>> >> >> >> > >> >> two leaves earlier when the canopy was in full
>> >> >> >> > >> >> growth,and since the beginning of August have left more
>> >> >> >> > >> >> on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few
>> >> >> >> > >> >> days ago to help ripening. I have an excellent crop this
>> >> >> >> > >> >> year,which seems to be ripening well.My mini vineyard is
>> >> >> >> > >> >> in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
>> >> >> >> > >> >> with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or
>> >> >> >> > >> >> whites.However one of my reds is already at 14.0,a
>> >> >> >> > >> >> couple of weeks before harvest,which will be early this
>> >> >> >> > >> >> year in England.Our temperatures have not been great in
>> >> >> >> > >> >> the daytime at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures
>> >> >> >> > >> >> have not fallen below
>>
>> ...
>>
>> read more »

wrote:

> "As I thought, you are afraid to publish in any magazine read by and
> contributed to by viticulturists."
>
> Viticuluralists are off in orbit when it comes to farming. I've had
> enough experience with them to know they would never make it if they
> had to grow something that was actually hard to grow. They end up
> killing more vines than they cultivate. The main reason for it is that
> they all think that what works in Maryland will work in England and
> will pound the table trying to convince you. Your insistence that
> Michael couldn't possibly be seeing positive effects from mulch is par
> for the course.
>

I repeat:

I am talking about a trial between rows in the same year!!!
Not one year compared to another.
Also, the crop is not yet in for this year. A vigorous vine does not
mean the fruit is go

>
>
> On Sep 3, 7:45Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > "Michael can easily do an experiment and grow his vineyard differently
>> > in
>> > different rows and compare"
>>
>> > He did, and he seems happy with mulch. Your the one who doesn't accept
>> > his observations.
>>
>> I am talking about a trial between rows in the same year!!!
>> Not one year compared to another.
>> Also, the crop is not yet in for this year. Â*A vigorous vine does not
>> mean the fruit is good.
>>
>>
>>
>> > "The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is
>> > regulated by drip irrigation or nature provides just enough water "
>>
>> > If they mulched they wouldn't need irrigation.
>>
>> Try drinking wine instead of growing and smoking wacky weed your
>> reasoning may be better. :-)
>>
>>
>>
>> > "Genetically grapes could care less about optimum ripening as long as
>> > there
>> > is ample sun and water. "
>>
>> > So they do need water?
>>
>> Yes, but a LOT less than other fruits. Â*Ever been to Grand Junction,
>> Colorado, Moab Utah? Â*Quite a desert environment there and they grow good
>> fruit - WITHOUT MULCHING.
>>
>>
>>
>> > "Excessive vigor promotes poor quality wine. Â*I suppose you disagree
>> > with
>> > this also."
>>
>> > I wrote that mulch actually refrains vigor ( due to it absorbing the
>> > water) while increasing the health of the vine..
>>
>> > "Publish. and have your work peer reviewed."
>>
>> > It's already been done. Grapes are plants. They benefit from mulching.
>>
>> As I thought, you are afraid to publish in any magazine read by and
>> contributed to by viticulturists.
>>
>> STILL no answer as to where you live and what you are growing. Â*Afraid of
>> this question? Â*I am also not impressed that you hide behind an alias.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sep 3, 4:07Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > " The thing(s) that increase
>> >> > brix are more sunlight and more growing degree days."
>>
>> >> > That is not true. If what you say is true than growing a vine in the
>> >> > sahara desert would yield the best grapes.
>>
>> >> I see, you STILL refuse to state your name and where you live and grow
>> >> grapes and which varieties you grow.
>>
>> >> Ever see an oasis in the desert? Â*Plants there do very well with just
>> >> a little water.
>>
>> >> The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is
>> >> regulated by drip irrigation or nature provides just enough water -
>> >> sort of like fine tuning an IV for a Human in the hospital. Drip
>> >> irrigation is usually cut off or reduced to promote better ripening
>> >> near harvest time. In your theory, you would give them all the water
>> >> they wanted. Â*The result would be extremely long canes with poor
>> >> fruit.
>>
>> >> Genetically grapes could care less about optimum ripening as long as
>> >> there is ample sun and water. Grapes are genetically coded to be
>> >> climbers and reach for the sun. Â*When water is reduced, the grape vine
>> >> will stop sending energy to the shoot growth and instead put its
>> >> energy into maturing the seeds and fruit to make it more likely birds
>> >> and other animals will eat them, spread their seeds and perpetuate the
>> >> species. This is the only thing nature cares about - perpetuating the
>> >> species.
>>
>> >> > "You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell
>> >> > them of
>> >> >> your 2 brix increase revelation. "
>>
>> >> > Most viticulturists are like you, they claim that grape vines grow
>> >> > better with no water. Maybe that is why the Fench only have "vintage
>> >> > years" every 20 years or so.
>>
>> >> Tell it to the French.
>>
>> >> Excessive vigor promotes poor quality wine. Â*I suppose you disagree
>> >> with this also.
>>
>> >> Publish. and have your work peer reviewed. Â*Most research
>> >> viticulturists would welcome your documented research.
>>
>> >> Paul
>>
>> >> > "Here in the Mid Atlantic, commercial
>> >> >> growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor."
>>
>> >> > And I'm sure they also fertilize.
>>
>> >> NO!! most do not fertilize.
>>
>> >> > If they put their mouths were their
>> >> > money was they wouldn't feritlize.
>>
>> >> They don't.
>>
>> >> > BTW, fertilizer is USELESS if there
>> >> > is no water in the soil for the roots to soak it up which blows away
>> >> > your theory about vines growing well in "arid" regions.
>>
>> >> The proof is well established. Â*I think you live in California, right?
>> >> What is the climate in most of the vineyards there? Â*What is the
>> >> climate in Washington State where grapes are grown. Â*What is the
>> >> climate in Argentina and Chile where grapes are grown. Â*Vitis Vinifera
>> >> originated in Eurasia near the Caspian and Black Sea - hardly a
>> >> tropical paradise.
>>
>> >> > While grapes
>> >> > roots do go deep a good percentage of them are near the surface.
>>
>> >> Yep, if you water them, you will have a good amount of them near the
>> >> surface.
>>
>> >> > "You will also find many references in the literature that state
>> >> > grapes do no
>> >> >> like wet feet"
>>
>> >> > They don't like wet feet. What they like is well drained soil which
>> >> > by design dries out FAST. That is why mulching over optimum soil is
>> >> > the RIGHT thing to do.
>>
>> >> Michael can easily do an experiment and grow his vineyard differently
>> >> in different rows and compare.
>>
>> >> > "
>>
>> >> > On Sep 3, 8:43Â*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > Micheal,
>>
>> >> >> > Always trust your eyes and keep observing.
>>
>> >> >> The very best thing for Michael to do is an experiment where he
>> >> >> mulches a row or rows and leaves the others unmulched and see if he
>> >> >> gets the "2 brix" increase on the mulched rows that you claim. The
>> >> >> thing(s) that increase brix are more sunlight and more growing
>> >> >> degree days. Â*Perhaps the only thing Michael can do is cut down
>> >> >> trees or other obstacles obstructing sunlight.
>>
>> >> >> You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell
>> >> >> them of your 2 brix increase revelation. Â*I am sure you could start
>> >> >> a new trend in grape growing.
>>
>> >> >> You never did answer my question that I asked in the past; where
>> >> >> are you growing your grapes and what are you growing?
>>
>> >> >> > Paul, without any proof, is
>> >> >> > saying that what I have observed and what you have have observed
>> >> >> > couldn't be true.
>>
>> >> >> Paul at least uses his real name.
>>
>> >> >> I am saying that I have no doubt that mulching will increase vigor.
>> >> >> Increased vigor in an already vigorous situation will NOT improve
>> >> >> grape quality. Â*In fact, it will do just the opposite. Do you like
>> >> >> your wine to smell and taste like vegetables? Â*Here in the Mid
>> >> >> Atlantic, commercial growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor.
>>
>> >> >> > It sounds like in your case, mulching has helped
>> >> >> > tremendously. There are many reasons for mulch and the main
>> >> >> > reason is that a healthy vine is a good vine. It's as simple as
>> >> >> > that.
>>
>> >> >> The French say that the best wine is made from the struggling vine.
>> >> >> Hmmm, something to think about there, doublesb.
>>
>> >> >> You will also find many references in the literature that state
>> >> >> grapes do no like wet feet. Â*Grape vine roots can go VERY deep;
>> >> >> deeper than almost all other plants. Â*You can not compare the root
>> >> >> system of other shallow rooted plants to grape vines. Â*Promoting a
>> >> >> shallow root system is not a good thing to do for grape vines.
>> >> >> Also consider where Vitis Vinifera originated - NOT in parts of the
>> >> >> world that had vigorous growth. Also, it is most successfully grown
>> >> >> - in semi arid areas.
>>
>> >> >> >> On 3 Sep, 02:50, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >> > michael wrote:
>> >> >> >> > > On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann"
>> >> >> >> > > > wrote:
>> >> >> >> > >> wrote:
>> >> >> >> > >> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf
>> >> >> >> > >> > area in ripening fruit."
>>
>> >> >> >> > >> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few
>> >> >> >> > >> > days ago to help ripening."
>>
>> >> >> >> > >> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment.
>> >> >> >> > >> > Pulling leaves doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will
>> >> >> >> > >> > delay it. The vine takes time to readjust it's physiology
>> >> >> >> > >> > to compensate for the lost leaves. In an environment like
>> >> >> >> > >> > yours you need alent from Â*the leaves you can get. People
>> >> >> >> > >> > who grow grapes in California or an area with more
>> >> >> >> > >> > sunshine and heat have much more room to hack up the
>> >> >> >> > >> > vines, you don't.
>>
>> >> >> >> > >> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
>> >> >> >> > >> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments
>> >> >> >> > >> but also note the authors comments about situations of
>> >> >> >> > >> extreme vigor.
>>
>> >> >> >> > >>http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>>
>> >> >> >> > >> Paul
>>
>> >> >> >> > >> >> On Aug 28, 8:36Â*am, michael
>> >> >> >> > >> >> > wrote: I received some
>> >> >> >> > >> >> very interesting advice a month or two ago,concerning
>> >> >> >> > >> >> the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained in
>> >> >> >> > >> >> the Double Guyot method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or
>> >> >> >> > >> >> two leaves earlier when the canopy was in full
>> >> >> >> > >> >> growth,and since the beginning of August have left more
>> >> >> >> > >> >> on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few
>> >> >> >> > >> >> days ago to help ripening. I have an excellent crop this
>> >> >> >> > >> >> year,which seems to be ripening well.My mini vineyard is
>> >> >> >> > >> >> in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
>> >> >> >> > >> >> with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or
>> >> >> >> > >> >> whites.However one of my reds is already at 14.0,a
>> >> >> >> > >> >> couple of weeks before harvest,which will be early this
>> >> >> >> > >> >> year in England.Our temperatures have not been great in
>> >> >> >> > >> >> the daytime at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures
>> >> >> >> > >> >> have not fallen below
>>
>> ...
>>
>> read more »

wrote:

> Paul,
>
> What type of soil do you have down there in Maryland that promotes so
> much vigor?

In my vineyard(s) I have a sandy loam. There are a variety of soil types in
Maryland. It is NOT THE SOIL that promotes the vigor here. It is the
moisture we receive. I believe the same is true in Michael's case. The
better years are the years that we have minimal rains during bloom and
fruit set and then again minimal rain after verasion.

You refuse to mention were you are growing your grapes so I assume you are
in California which in most cases never or very seldom experiences this
situation. If this is the case, you can not even begin to get an idea of
the vigor problem without first hand experience.

Grapes can be grown on a variety of soil types. I suggest you read the
book "Terroir" by James E. Wilson. Wilson, like myself, is a Geologist.
All of my professional career was working as a Geologist, Hydrologist and
Physical Scientist. I worked for a vineyard and winemaking consultant
after retiring.

Just curious, what is your background?


> I, like Michael, grow my vines on WELL DRAINED soil. My
> soil is sand. Not sandy loam, sand. I think what the problem is in our
> disagreement is that Maryland doesn't really have optimum soil to grow
> grapes to begin with so your viticultural practices are aimed at
> correcting the biggest mistake you can make as a "expert"
> viticuluralist, site selection.
>
>
> On Sep 4, 6:25Â*am, wrote:
>> "As I thought, you are afraid to publish in any magazine read by and
>> contributed to by viticulturists."
>>
>> Viticuluralists are off in orbit when it comes to farming. I've had
>> enough experience with them to know they would never make it if they
>> had to grow something that was actually hard to grow. They end up
>> killing more vines than they cultivate. The main reason for it is that
>> they all think that what works in Maryland will work in England and
>> will pound the table trying to convince you. Your insistence that
>> Michael couldn't possibly be seeing positive effects from mulch is par
>> for the course.
>>
>> On Sep 3, 7:45Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > wrote:
>> > > "Michael can easily do an experiment and grow his vineyard
>> > > differently in
>> > > different rows and compare"
>>
>> > > He did, and he seems happy with mulch. Your the one who doesn't
>> > > accept his observations.
>>
>> > I am talking about a trial between rows in the same year!!!
>> > Not one year compared to another.
>> > Also, the crop is not yet in for this year. Â*A vigorous vine does not
>> > mean the fruit is good.
>>
>> > > "The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is
>> > > regulated by drip irrigation or nature provides just enough water "
>>
>> > > If they mulched they wouldn't need irrigation.
>>
>> > Try drinking wine instead of growing and smoking wacky weed your
>> > reasoning may be better. :-)
>>
>> > > "Genetically grapes could care less about optimum ripening as long as
>> > > there
>> > > is ample sun and water. "
>>
>> > > So they do need water?
>>
>> > Yes, but a LOT less than other fruits. Â*Ever been to Grand Junction,
>> > Colorado, Moab Utah? Â*Quite a desert environment there and they grow
>> > good fruit - WITHOUT MULCHING.
>>
>> > > "Excessive vigor promotes poor quality wine. Â*I suppose you disagree
>> > > with
>> > > this also."
>>
>> > > I wrote that mulch actually refrains vigor ( due to it absorbing the
>> > > water) while increasing the health of the vine..
>>
>> > > "Publish. and have your work peer reviewed."
>>
>> > > It's already been done. Grapes are plants. They benefit from
>> > > mulching.
>>
>> > As I thought, you are afraid to publish in any magazine read by and
>> > contributed to by viticulturists.
>>
>> > STILL no answer as to where you live and what you are growing. Â*Afraid
>> > of this question? Â*I am also not impressed that you hide behind an
>> > alias.
>>
>> > Paul
>>
>> > > On Sep 3, 4:07Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
>> > > wrote:
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >> > " The thing(s) that increase
>> > >> > brix are more sunlight and more growing degree days."
>>
>> > >> > That is not true. If what you say is true than growing a vine in
>> > >> > the sahara desert would yield the best grapes.
>>
>> > >> I see, you STILL refuse to state your name and where you live and
>> > >> grow grapes and which varieties you grow.
>>
>> > >> Ever see an oasis in the desert? Â*Plants there do very well with
>> > >> just a little water.
>>
>> > >> The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is
>> > >> regulated by drip irrigation or nature provides just enough water -
>> > >> sort of like fine tuning an IV for a Human in the hospital. Drip
>> > >> irrigation is usually cut off or reduced to promote better ripening
>> > >> near harvest time. In your theory, you would give them all the water
>> > >> they wanted. Â*The result would be extremely long canes with poor
>> > >> fruit.
>>
>> > >> Genetically grapes could care less about optimum ripening as long as
>> > >> there is ample sun and water. Grapes are genetically coded to be
>> > >> climbers and reach for the sun. Â*When water is reduced, the grape
>> > >> vine will stop sending energy to the shoot growth and instead put
>> > >> its energy into maturing the seeds and fruit to make it more likely
>> > >> birds and other animals will eat them, spread their seeds and
>> > >> perpetuate the species. This is the only thing nature cares about -
>> > >> perpetuating the species.
>>
>> > >> > "You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell
>> > >> > them of
>> > >> >> your 2 brix increase revelation. "
>>
>> > >> > Most viticulturists are like you, they claim that grape vines grow
>> > >> > better with no water. Maybe that is why the Fench only have
>> > >> > "vintage years" every 20 years or so.
>>
>> > >> Tell it to the French.
>>
>> > >> Excessive vigor promotes poor quality wine. Â*I suppose you disagree
>> > >> with this also.
>>
>> > >> Publish. and have your work peer reviewed. Â*Most research
>> > >> viticulturists would welcome your documented research.
>>
>> > >> Paul
>>
>> > >> > "Here in the Mid Atlantic, commercial
>> > >> >> growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor."
>>
>> > >> > And I'm sure they also fertilize.
>>
>> > >> NO!! most do not fertilize.
>>
>> > >> > If they put their mouths were their
>> > >> > money was they wouldn't feritlize.
>>
>> > >> They don't.
>>
>> > >> > BTW, fertilizer is USELESS if there
>> > >> > is no water in the soil for the roots to soak it up which blows
>> > >> > away your theory about vines growing well in "arid" regions.
>>
>> > >> The proof is well established. Â*I think you live in California,
>> > >> right? What is the climate in most of the vineyards there? Â*What is
>> > >> the climate in Washington State where grapes are grown. Â*What is the
>> > >> climate in Argentina and Chile where grapes are grown. Â*Vitis
>> > >> Vinifera originated in Eurasia near the Caspian and Black Sea -
>> > >> hardly a tropical paradise.
>>
>> > >> > While grapes
>> > >> > roots do go deep a good percentage of them are near the surface.
>>
>> > >> Yep, if you water them, you will have a good amount of them near the
>> > >> surface.
>>
>> > >> > "You will also find many references in the literature that state
>> > >> > grapes do no
>> > >> >> like wet feet"
>>
>> > >> > They don't like wet feet. What they like is well drained soil
>> > >> > which by design dries out FAST. That is why mulching over optimum
>> > >> > soil is the RIGHT thing to do.
>>
>> > >> Michael can easily do an experiment and grow his vineyard
>> > >> differently in different rows and compare.
>>
>> > >> > "
>>
>> > >> > On Sep 3, 8:43Â*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
>> > >> > wrote:
>> > >> >> wrote:
>> > >> >> > Micheal,
>>
>> > >> >> > Always trust your eyes and keep observing.
>>
>> > >> >> The very best thing for Michael to do is an experiment where he
>> > >> >> mulches a row or rows and leaves the others unmulched and see if
>> > >> >> he gets the "2 brix" increase on the mulched rows that you claim.
>> > >> >> The thing(s) that increase brix are more sunlight and more
>> > >> >> growing degree days. Â*Perhaps the only thing Michael can do is
>> > >> >> cut down trees or other obstacles obstructing sunlight.
>>
>> > >> >> You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell
>> > >> >> them of your 2 brix increase revelation. Â*I am sure you could
>> > >> >> start a new trend in grape growing.
>>
>> > >> >> You never did answer my question that I asked in the past; where
>> > >> >> are you growing your grapes and what are you growing?
>>
>> > >> >> > Paul, without any proof, is
>> > >> >> > saying that what I have observed and what you have have
>> > >> >> > observed couldn't be true.
>>
>> > >> >> Paul at least uses his real name.
>>
>> > >> >> I am saying that I have no doubt that mulching will increase
>> > >> >> vigor. Increased vigor in an already vigorous situation will NOT
>> > >> >> improve grape quality. Â*In fact, it will do just the opposite. Do
>> > >> >> you like your wine to smell and taste like vegetables? Â*Here in
>> > >> >> the Mid Atlantic, commercial growers constantly strive to
>> > >> >> DECREASE vigor.
>>
>> > >> >> > It sounds like in your case, mulching has helped
>> > >> >> > tremendously. There are many reasons for mulch and the main
>> > >> >> > reason is that a healthy vine is a good vine. It's as simple as
>> > >> >> > that.
>>
>> > >> >> The French say that the best wine is made from the struggling
>> > >> >> vine. Hmmm, something to think about there, doublesb.
>>
>> > >> >> You will also find many references in the literature that state
>> > >> >> grapes do no like wet feet. Â*Grape vine roots can go VERY deep;
>> > >> >> deeper than almost all other plants. Â*You can not compare the
>> > >> >> root system of other shallow rooted plants to grape vines.
>> > >> >> Promoting a shallow root system is not a good thing to do for
>> > >> >> grape vines. Â*Also consider where Vitis Vinifera originated - NOT
>> > >> >> in parts of the world that had vigorous growth. Also, it is most
>> > >> >> successfully grown - in semi arid areas.
>>
>> > >> >> >> On 3 Sep, 02:50, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
>> > >> >> >> wrote:
>>
>> > >> >> >> > michael wrote:
>> > >> >> >> > > On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann"
>> > >> >> >> > > > wrote:
>> > >> >> >> > >> wrote:
>> > >> >> >> > >> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of
>> > >> >> >> > >> > leaf area in ripening fruit."
>>
>> > >> >> >> > >> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few
>> > >> >> >> > >> > days ago to help ripening."
>>
>> > >> >> >> > >> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment.
>> > >> >> >> > >> > Pulling leaves doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will
>> > >> >> >> > >> > delay it. The vine takes time to readjust it's
>> > >> >> >> > >> > physiology to compensate for the lost leaves. In an
>> > >> >> >> > >> > environment like yours you need alent from Â*the leaves
>> > >> >> >> > >> > you can get. People who grow grapes in California or an
>> > >> >> >> > >> > area with more sunshine and heat have much more room to
>> > >> >> >> > >> > hack up the vines, you don't.
>>
>> > >> >> >> > >> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
>> > >> >> >> > >> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous
>> > >> >> >> > >> comments but also note the authors comments about
>> > >> >> >> > >> situations of extreme vigor.
>>
>> > >> >> >> >
>>http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>>
>> > >> >> >> > >> Paul
>>
>> > >> >> >> > >> >> On Aug 28, 8:36Â*am, michael
>> > >> >> >> > >> >> > wrote: I received some
>> > >> >> >> > >> >> very interesting advice a month or two ago,concerning
>> > >> >> >> > >> >> the thinning of vertical shoots for
>>
>> ...
>>
>> read more »

Paul,

I would bet that where I am has recieved more rain than you and
Michael combined. I have not seen any vigor difference between this
year and and other year. Like I said, the mulch regulates the vines
very well and any water that does get to the ground is drained by the
soil thereby keeping a constant soil moisture whether it's pouring or
it hasn't rained in 2 weeks. Before I mulched there were some rows
that were a lot less vigorous than other rows. After mulching all rows
look identical. There is no percievable difference which is why I have
concluded that the mulch is a great regulator of vigor and water. BTW,
I read the article you posted and it seems to validate what I have
been talking about as far as viticulturalists. While each technique
has it's advantages in some aspect it also has disadvantages
especially for trunk size and the next year. These are crucial when
growing in cold climates. Maryland isn't a tough place to grow grapes.
In fact you probably don't need to worry too much about winter
survival. If you read the article carefully what it really suggests is
that if viticuluralists would just leave the vines alone they would be
better off. There was no mention of the final brix in the grapes of
the good fruit set and the poor fruit set. As a grower of a perenial
you constantly need to think about the future( especially since it
takes 3 years grow a new vine) along with the current situation before
making any changes to the natural evolution of the vine. I think the
articale does a good job in detailing the enormous benefits laterals
have to fruit ripeng and also trunk size and stored carbs for net
year.

On Sep 4, 7:56*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> wrote:
> > Paul,
>
> > What type of soil do you have down there in Maryland that promotes so
> > much vigor?
>
> In my vineyard(s) I have a sandy loam. *There are a variety of soil types in
> Maryland. It is NOT THE SOIL that promotes the vigor here. *It is the
> moisture we receive. I believe the same is true in Michael's case. *The
> better years are the years that we have minimal rains during bloom and
> fruit set and then again minimal rain after verasion.
>
> You refuse to mention were you are growing your grapes so I assume you are
> in California which in most cases never or very seldom experiences this
> situation. *If this is the case, you can not even begin to get an idea of
> the vigor problem without first hand experience.
>
> Grapes can be grown on a variety of soil types. I suggest you read the
> book "Terroir" by James E. Wilson. *Wilson, like myself, is a Geologist..
> All of my professional career was working as a Geologist, Hydrologist and
> Physical Scientist. *I worked for a vineyard and winemaking consultant
> after retiring.
>
> Just curious, what is your background?
>
>
>
> > I, like Michael, grow my vines on WELL DRAINED soil. My
> > soil is sand. Not sandy loam, sand. I think what the problem is in our
> > disagreement is that Maryland doesn't really have optimum soil to grow
> > grapes to begin with so your viticultural practices are aimed at
> > correcting the biggest mistake you can make as a "expert"
> > viticuluralist, site selection.
>
> > On Sep 4, 6:25*am, wrote:
> >> "As I thought, you are afraid to publish in any magazine read by and
> >> contributed to by viticulturists."
>
> >> Viticuluralists are off in orbit when it comes to farming. I've had
> >> enough experience with them to know they would never make it if they
> >> had to grow something that was actually hard to grow. They end up
> >> killing more vines than they cultivate. The main reason for it is that
> >> they all think that what works in Maryland will work in England and
> >> will pound the table trying to convince you. Your insistence that
> >> Michael couldn't possibly be seeing positive effects from mulch is par
> >> for the course.
>
> >> On Sep 3, 7:45*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > > "Michael can easily do an experiment and grow his vineyard
> >> > > differently in
> >> > > different rows and compare"
>
> >> > > He did, and he seems happy with mulch. Your the one who doesn't
> >> > > accept his observations.
>
> >> > I am talking about a trial between rows in the same year!!!
> >> > Not one year compared to another.
> >> > Also, the crop is not yet in for this year. *A vigorous vine does not
> >> > mean the fruit is good.
>
> >> > > "The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is
> >> > > regulated by drip irrigation or nature provides just enough water "
>
> >> > > If they mulched they wouldn't need irrigation.
>
> >> > Try drinking wine instead of growing and smoking wacky weed your
> >> > reasoning may be better. :-)
>
> >> > > "Genetically grapes could care less about optimum ripening as long as
> >> > > there
> >> > > is ample sun and water. "
>
> >> > > So they do need water?
>
> >> > Yes, but a LOT less than other fruits. *Ever been to Grand Junction,
> >> > Colorado, Moab Utah? *Quite a desert environment there and they grow
> >> > good fruit - WITHOUT MULCHING.
>
> >> > > "Excessive vigor promotes poor quality wine. *I suppose you disagree
> >> > > with
> >> > > this also."
>
> >> > > I wrote that mulch actually refrains vigor ( due to it absorbing the
> >> > > water) while increasing the health of the vine..
>
> >> > > "Publish. and have your work peer reviewed."
>
> >> > > It's already been done. Grapes are plants. They benefit from
> >> > > mulching.
>
> >> > As I thought, you are afraid to publish in any magazine read by and
> >> > contributed to by viticulturists.
>
> >> > STILL no answer as to where you live and what you are growing. *Afraid
> >> > of this question? *I am also not impressed that you hide behind an
> >> > alias.
>
> >> > Paul
>
> >> > > On Sep 3, 4:07*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > >> wrote:
> >> > >> > " The thing(s) that increase
> >> > >> > brix are more sunlight and more growing degree days."
>
> >> > >> > That is not true. If what you say is true than growing a vine in
> >> > >> > the sahara desert would yield the best grapes.
>
> >> > >> I see, you STILL refuse to state your name and where you live and
> >> > >> grow grapes and which varieties you grow.
>
> >> > >> Ever see an oasis in the desert? *Plants there do very well with
> >> > >> just a little water.
>
> >> > >> The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is
> >> > >> regulated by drip irrigation or nature provides just enough water -
> >> > >> sort of like fine tuning an IV for a Human in the hospital. Drip
> >> > >> irrigation is usually cut off or reduced to promote better ripening
> >> > >> near harvest time. In your theory, you would give them all the water
> >> > >> they wanted. *The result would be extremely long canes with poor
> >> > >> fruit.
>
> >> > >> Genetically grapes could care less about optimum ripening as long as
> >> > >> there is ample sun and water. Grapes are genetically coded to be
> >> > >> climbers and reach for the sun. *When water is reduced, the grape
> >> > >> vine will stop sending energy to the shoot growth and instead put
> >> > >> its energy into maturing the seeds and fruit to make it more likely
> >> > >> birds and other animals will eat them, spread their seeds and
> >> > >> perpetuate the species. This is the only thing nature cares about -
> >> > >> perpetuating the species.
>
> >> > >> > "You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell
> >> > >> > them of
> >> > >> >> your 2 brix increase revelation. "
>
> >> > >> > Most viticulturists are like you, they claim that grape vines grow
> >> > >> > better with no water. Maybe that is why the Fench only have
> >> > >> > "vintage years" every 20 years or so.
>
> >> > >> Tell it to the French.
>
> >> > >> Excessive vigor promotes poor quality wine. *I suppose you disagree
> >> > >> with this also.
>
> >> > >> Publish. and have your work peer reviewed. *Most research
> >> > >> viticulturists would welcome your documented research.
>
> >> > >> Paul
>
> >> > >> > "Here in the Mid Atlantic, commercial
> >> > >> >> growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor."
>
> >> > >> > And I'm sure they also fertilize.
>
> >> > >> NO!! most do not fertilize.
>
> >> > >> > If they put their mouths were their
> >> > >> > money was they wouldn't feritlize.
>
> >> > >> They don't.
>
> >> > >> > BTW, fertilizer is USELESS if there
> >> > >> > is no water in the soil for the roots to soak it up which blows
> >> > >> > away your theory about vines growing well in "arid" regions.
>
> >> > >> The proof is well established. *I think you live in California,
> >> > >> right? What is the climate in most of the vineyards there? *What is
> >> > >> the climate in Washington State where grapes are grown. *What is the
> >> > >> climate in Argentina and Chile where grapes are grown. *Vitis
> >> > >> Vinifera originated in Eurasia near the Caspian and Black Sea -
> >> > >> hardly a tropical paradise.
>
> >> > >> > While grapes
> >> > >> > roots do go deep a good percentage of them are near the surface..
>
> >> > >> Yep, if you water them, you will have a good amount of them near the
> >> > >> surface.
>
> >> > >> > "You will also find many references in the literature that state
> >> > >> > grapes do no
> >> > >> >> like wet feet"
>
> >> > >> > They don't like wet feet. What they like is well drained soil
> >> > >> > which by design dries out FAST. That is why mulching over optimum
> >> > >> > soil is the RIGHT thing to do.
>
> >> > >> Michael can easily do an experiment and grow his vineyard
> >> > >> differently in different rows and compare.
>
> >> > >> > "
>
> >> > >> > On Sep 3, 8:43*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> >> > >> > wrote:
> >> > >> >> wrote:
> >> > >> >> > Micheal,
>
> >> > >> >> > Always trust your eyes and keep observing.
>
> >> > >> >> The very best thing for Michael to do is an experiment where he
> >> > >> >> mulches a row or rows and leaves the others unmulched and see if
> >> > >> >> he gets the "2 brix" increase on the mulched rows that you claim.
> >> > >> >> The thing(s) that increase brix are more sunlight and more
> >> > >> >> growing degree days. *Perhaps the only thing Michael can do is
> >> > >> >> cut down trees or other obstacles obstructing sunlight.
>
> >> > >> >> You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell
> >> > >> >> them of your 2 brix increase revelation. *I am sure you could
> >> > >> >> start a new trend in grape growing.
>
> >> > >> >> You never did answer my question that I asked in the past; where
> >> > >> >> are you growing your grapes and what are you growing?
>
> >> > >> >> > Paul, without any proof, is
> >> > >> >> > saying that what I have observed and what you have have
> >> > >> >> > observed couldn't be true.
>
> >> > >> >> Paul at least uses his real name.
>
> >> > >> >> I am saying that I have no doubt that mulching will increase
> >> > >> >> vigor. Increased vigor in an already vigorous situation will NOT
> >> > >> >> improve grape quality. *In fact, it will do just the opposite. Do
> >> > >> >> you like your wine to smell and taste like vegetables? *Here in
> >> > >> >> the Mid Atlantic, commercial growers constantly strive to
> >> > >> >> DECREASE vigor.
>
> >> > >> >> > It sounds like in your case, mulching has helped
> >> > >> >> > tremendously. There are many reasons for mulch and the main
> >> > >> >> > reason is that a healthy vine is a good vine. It's as simple as
> >> > >> >> > that.
>
> >> > >> >> The French say that the best wine is made from the struggling
> >> > >> >> vine. Hmmm, something to think about there, doublesb.
>
> >> > >> >> You will also find many references in the literature that state
> >> > >> >> grapes do no like wet feet. *Grape vine roots can go VERY
>
> ...
>
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