Since I was the originator of the previous long discussion,I thought
that I would start again.
Thanks to you all for the comments and advice,which is mostly
contradictory but very interesting.Just a few more comments that
struck me in the discussion.
1)Wood chip mulch(unrotted) would certainly rob nitrogen from the top
soil layers.This is a well known fact to gardeners,who cannot get
anything growing on wood chip added soil,but can as soon as nitrochalk
is added;the effect is sometimes almost immediate.
2)My soil is dry limestone on a S-facing slope,and can suffer from
very long periods with little rain.The subsoil is stony clay which
holds moisture.I also have a hard cider orchard,and it takes about 10
years or more for the apple tree roots to start moving into the lower
soil.My grapes are grown in an area with typically 25" rain
annually,and also in a microclimate where the rain bypasses us down
the valley.Surprisingly I am able to grow good
potatoes,onions,tomatoes on this soil,but the top few inches often
becomes very dry.Hence I thought that the mulch (garden compost) would
keep the upper soil a little moister.
3)The quote from Cox,which I have,that mulching encourages some late
growth,and may hinder ripening is interesting.
4)My vines this year are very healthy,and possibly with a darker green
leaf this year.This maybe an indication of too much nitrogen . I did
add some small amount of general fertiliser to the mulch,which I also
do not usually do.
5) The bottom line is that my vines and grapes look extremely healthy
this year,with a great crop on.They are ripening slowly and withou any
sign of disease moving in yet. Another thing I did this year is to put
several wasp jars(containing beer) around the vines-I must have killed
a couple of thousand wasps over a few weeks.I am sure that in previous
years wasps begin to attack the grapes in early August-they nibble a
grape or two which rot,and this spreads to the rest of the bunch.A
similar thing happens regularly with plums.
6)I have good site for grapes,but every year is not good as our
temperatures can be rather low sometimes.But this year is
excellent,particularly in June when I had great flower and
fruitset.Since then the vines have been flourishing.

So,I am not sure what to do next year.I have done so many different
things,I am not sure which has been the most important and in
particular whether to mulch or not.I will possibly give a final
sulphur spray after harvest as Paul suggests.Since most of the vine is
cut away in winter pruning-in my case in November-isnt better to spray
then when there is not much wood to spray,but then it may not be as
effective.

Thanks again,and I would certainly welcome more discussion.I am
learning a lot,despite becoming a little confused.

Best regards
Michael

..
> 1)Wood chip mulch(unrotted) would certainly rob nitrogen from the top
> soil layers.This is a well known fact to gardeners,who cannot get
> anything growing on wood chip added soil,but can as soon as nitrochalk
> is added;the effect is sometimes almost immediate.

Total nonsense.

> 3)The quote from Cox,which I have,that mulching encourages some late
> growth,and may hinder ripening is interesting.

Total ignorance.

> 4)My vines this year are very healthy,and possibly with a darker green
> leaf this year.This maybe an indication of too much nitrogen .

Total nonsense.

> 5) The bottom line is that my vines and grapes look extremely healthy
> this year,with a great crop on.They are ripening slowly and withou any
> sign of disease moving in yet.

Finally something that makes sense.

Another thing I did this year is to put
> several wasp jars(containing beer) around the vines-I must have killed
> a couple of thousand wasps over a few weeks.I am sure that in previous
> years wasps begin to attack the grapes in early August-they nibble a
> grape or two which rot,and this spreads to the rest of the bunch.A
> similar thing happens regularly with plums.

Total nonsense. Bees don't damage grapes.

http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda%2.../Woodchips.pdf






On Sep 14, 10:25*am, wrote:
> .
>
> > 1)Wood chip mulch(unrotted) would certainly rob nitrogen from the top
> > soil layers.This is a well known fact to gardeners,who cannot get
> > anything growing on wood chip added soil,but can as soon as nitrochalk
> > is added;the effect is sometimes almost immediate.
>
> Total nonsense.
>
> > 3)The quote from Cox,which I have,that mulching encourages some late
> > growth,and may hinder ripening is interesting.
>
> Total ignorance.
>
> > 4)My vines this year are very healthy,and possibly with a darker green
> > leaf this year.This maybe an indication of too much nitrogen .
>
> Total nonsense.
>
> > 5) The bottom line is that my vines and grapes look extremely healthy
> > this year,with a great crop on.They are ripening slowly and withou any
> > sign of disease moving in yet.
>
> Finally something that makes sense.
>
> Another thing I did this year is to put
>
> > several wasp jars(containing beer) around the vines-I must have killed
> > a couple of thousand wasps over a few weeks.I am sure that in previous
> > years wasps begin to attack the grapes in early August-they nibble a
> > grape or two which rot,and this spreads to the rest of the bunch.A
> > similar thing happens regularly with plums.
>
> Total nonsense. Bees don't damage grapes.

wrote:
> http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda%2.../Woodchips.pdf
>
This link is pro wood chip for landscaping, not agricultural

wrote:

> .
>> 1)Wood chip mulch(unrotted) would certainly rob nitrogen from the top
>> soil layers.This is a well known fact to gardeners,who cannot get
>> anything growing on wood chip added soil,but can as soon as nitrochalk
>> is added;the effect is sometimes almost immediate.
>
> Total nonsense.
>
>> 3)The quote from Cox,which I have,that mulching encourages some late
>> growth,and may hinder ripening is interesting.
>
> Total ignorance.
>
>> 4)My vines this year are very healthy,and possibly with a darker green
>> leaf this year.This maybe an indication of too much nitrogen .
>
> Total nonsense.
>
>> 5) The bottom line is that my vines and grapes look extremely healthy
>> this year,with a great crop on.They are ripening slowly and withou any
>> sign of disease moving in yet.
>
> Finally something that makes sense.
>
> Another thing I did this year is to put
>> several wasp jars(containing beer) around the vines-I must have killed
>> a couple of thousand wasps over a few weeks.I am sure that in previous
>> years wasps begin to attack the grapes in early August-they nibble a
>> grape or two which rot,and this spreads to the rest of the bunch.A
>> similar thing happens regularly with plums.
>
> Total nonsense. Bees don't damage grapes.

Total nonsense. Bees can get into grapes that are cracked or diseased for
whatever reason and spread the disease.

wrote:

>
>
http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda%2.../Woodchips.pdf
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 14, 10:25Â*am, wrote:
>> .
>>
>> > 1)Wood chip mulch(unrotted) would certainly rob nitrogen from the top
>> > soil layers.This is a well known fact to gardeners,who cannot get
>> > anything growing on wood chip added soil,but can as soon as nitrochalk
>> > is added;the effect is sometimes almost immediate.
>>
>> Total nonsense.
>>
>> > 3)The quote from Cox,which I have,that mulching encourages some late
>> > growth,and may hinder ripening is interesting.
>>
>> Total ignorance.
>>
>> > 4)My vines this year are very healthy,and possibly with a darker green
>> > leaf this year.This maybe an indication of too much nitrogen .
>>
>> Total nonsense.
>>
>> > 5) The bottom line is that my vines and grapes look extremely healthy
>> > this year,with a great crop on.They are ripening slowly and withou any
>> > sign of disease moving in yet.
>>
>> Finally something that makes sense.
>>
>> Another thing I did this year is to put
>>
>> > several wasp jars(containing beer) around the vines-I must have killed
>> > a couple of thousand wasps over a few weeks.I am sure that in previous
>> > years wasps begin to attack the grapes in early August-they nibble a
>> > grape or two which rot,and this spreads to the rest of the bunch.A
>> > similar thing happens regularly with plums.
>>
>> Total nonsense. Bees don't damage grapes.

All of this nonsense from doublesp who also recommended using Rubbermaid
trash containers for fermenters which is a SERIOUS NO NO!!!

This is the same doublesp who refuses to tell us where he grows his grapes
and which varieties he grows.

It seems as if he just might have a credibility problem.

Paul E. Lehmann wrote:
> wrote:
>>> Total nonsense. Bees don't damage grapes.
>
> All of this nonsense from doublesp who also recommended using Rubbermaid
> trash containers for fermenters which is a SERIOUS NO NO!!!
>
> This is the same doublesp who refuses to tell us where he grows his grapes
> and which varieties he grows.
>
> It seems as if he just might have a credibility problem.

I'm afraid I have to agree. I'd have to hold suspect the opinion of
anyone who doesn't know the difference between SO2 and H2S ( post of
29 Aug).

Marshall

> Total nonsense. *Bees can get into grapes that are cracked or diseased for
> whatever reason and spread the disease.

So you agree with me. Bees aren't the ones that damage the grapes it's
other causes that damage the grapes NOT the bees. Michael claimed the
bees were responsible for the damage.

> This link is pro wood chip for landscaping, not agricultural

We've been talking about the health of a plant. There is no
difference. Are you saying that landscaping plants have different
requirements for their health than agricultural plants? What is I
choose to use apple trees to landscape my yard? Do I mulch if I use
them for landscaping and not mulch if I want to eat the apples?

> I'm afraid I have to agree. I'd have to hold suspect the opinion of
> anyone who doesn't know the difference between SO2 and H2S ( post of
> 29 Aug).

Post the link. I think you misread or misunderstood my post.

wrote:

>
>> Total nonsense. Â*Bees can get into grapes that are cracked or diseased
>> for whatever reason and spread the disease.
>
> So you agree with me. Bees aren't the ones that damage the grapes it's
> other causes that damage the grapes NOT the bees. Michael claimed the
> bees were responsible for the damage.

As much as it may pain me to do so, yes, I agree - on this one point, it is
not the bee that causes the primary problem :-)

wrote:
>> This link is pro wood chip for landscaping, not agricultural
>
> We've been talking about the health of a plant. There is no
> difference. Are you saying that landscaping plants have different
> requirements for their health than agricultural plants? What is I
> choose to use apple trees to landscape my yard? Do I mulch if I use
> them for landscaping and not mulch if I want to eat the apples?
>

Read the material you linked to. It explains the different needs for
different types of plants.

On Sep 14, 11:37*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
wrote:
> wrote:
>
> >> Total nonsense. *Bees can get into grapes that are cracked or diseased
> >> for whatever reason and spread the disease.
>
> > So you agree with me. Bees aren't the ones that damage the grapes it's
> > other causes that damage the grapes NOT the bees. Michael claimed the
> > bees were responsible for the damage.
>
> As much as it may pain me to do so, yes, I agree - on this one point, it is
> not the bee that causes the primary problem :-)

LOL. Listen, I'm don't want to "bee" confrontational. All I'm
suggesting is a way of growing grapes that is organic and which I have
observed all the benefits that were advertised. It's good for the
vines. How about this, I recommend growing the vines for the first 5
years, until they get established, with 4 inches of wood chip mulch
beneath them. Then you could just refrain from adding more wood chips.
I think this will give anyone growing grapes as a hobby a good start
on a backyard vineyard.

On Sep 15, 7:20*am, BobF > wrote:
> wrote:
> >> This link is pro wood chip for landscaping, not agricultural
>
> > We've been *talking about the health of a plant. *There is no
> > difference. Are you saying that landscaping plants have different
> > requirements for their health than agricultural plants? What is I
> > choose to use apple trees to landscape my yard? Do I mulch if I use
> > them for landscaping and not mulch if I want to eat the apples?
>
> Read the material you linked to. *It explains the different needs for
> different types of plants.

Bob,

Grapevines are not annuals. I don't consider them vegetable garden
palnts.

wrote:
> On Sep 15, 7:20 am, BobF > wrote:
>> wrote:
>>>> This link is pro wood chip for landscaping, not agricultural
>>> We've been talking about the health of a plant. There is no
>>> difference. Are you saying that landscaping plants have different
>>> requirements for their health than agricultural plants? What is I
>>> choose to use apple trees to landscape my yard? Do I mulch if I use
>>> them for landscaping and not mulch if I want to eat the apples?
>> Read the material you linked to. It explains the different needs for
>> different types of plants.
>
> Bob,
>
> Grapevines are not annuals. I don't consider them vegetable garden
> palnts.

Do they still have nitrogen requirements? I don't grow grapes yet, but
I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express one night ... :-)

Seriously, I've read many scientific (agricultural) sources over the
years and used that knowledge gardening. The fact that the micros that
break down wood-based mulches consume nitrogen is well known and broadly
accepted.

It may well be that grapes vines root deeply enough and have a low
enough need for nitrogen that it doesn't matter to them in practice - in
the short term.

I suspect that continued use of wood-based mulch over a number of years
will deplete the available nitrogen if not supplemented accordingly.

To the point, that they aren't annuals might not matter. It just
changes the cause/effect time line.

This is how I understand things so far. Hopefully the discussion will
continue such that I have a true understanding before spring gets here.

'Here' being south central Missouri, USA.

wrote:

> On Sep 14, 11:37Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> wrote:
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> Total nonsense. Â*Bees can get into grapes that are cracked or diseased
>> >> for whatever reason and spread the disease.
>>
>> > So you agree with me. Bees aren't the ones that damage the grapes it's
>> > other causes that damage the grapes NOT the bees. Michael claimed the
>> > bees were responsible for the damage.
>>
>> As much as it may pain me to do so, yes, I agree - on this one point, it
>> is not the bee that causes the primary problem :-)
>
> LOL. Listen, I'm don't want to "bee" confrontational. All I'm
> suggesting is a way of growing grapes that is organic and which I have
> observed all the benefits that were advertised. It's good for the
> vines. How about this, I recommend growing the vines for the first 5
> years, until they get established, with 4 inches of wood chip mulch
> beneath them. Then you could just refrain from adding more wood chips.
> I think this will give anyone growing grapes as a hobby a good start
> on a backyard vineyard.

I don't see why you think using wood chip mulch is "Organic" growing.
If one wanted to get a good start with their grapes AND they had nutrient
requirements that their soil did not meet, then I might suggest mature
compost but not wood chip mulch.

> Seriously, I've read many scientific (agricultural) sources over the
> years and used that knowledge gardening. *The fact that the micros that
> break down wood-based mulches consume nitrogen is well known and broadly
> accepted.
>
> It may well be that grapes vines root deeply enough and have a low
> enough need for nitrogen that it doesn't matter to them in practice - in
> the short term.
>
> I suspect that continued use of wood-based mulch over a number of years
> will deplete the available nitrogen if not supplemented accordingly.

Bob,

I'll say it again. What Linda Chalker-Scott says in that article is
what I have experienced. Wood chips do NOT deplete the soil of
nitrogen UNLESS you mix them into the soil. You can't do that. The
chips need to be laid down over moist soil to a depth of at least 4
inches. I repeat, it's a MYTH that wood chip mulch depletes the
nitrogen out of the soil.

> I don't see why you think using wood chip mulch is "Organic" growing.
> If one wanted to get a good start with their grapes AND they had nutrient
> requirements that their soil did not meet, then I might suggest mature
> compost but not wood chip mulch.

How can you suggest anything when you have no experience at it? I have
years of evidence that proves wood chips are the deal and a doctor in
Washington who will back up my observations.

On Sep 15, 11:24 am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
wrote:

> I don't see why you think using wood chip mulch is "Organic" growing.
> If one wanted to get a good start with their grapes AND they had nutrient
> requirements that their soil did not meet, then I might suggest mature
> compost but not wood chip mulch.

I emailed Lon Rombough, the author of "The Grape Grower - A Guide to
Organic Viticulture" about the subject of mulch. Here is his reply:

"The type of mulch makes a difference. Wood chips are a lot different
than chipped tree prunings, such as tree services produce. Chipped
pruning material is a mix of chip/chunk sizes and contains leaf matter
and ramial wood (small twigs). Such material has enough nitrogen to
keep it from taking N from the soil, but enough large material that it
decomposes slowly when used as mulch. This is a lot different than
using straight wood chips, which DO take N from the soil and can cake
on the soil. Want proof? Pile up chipped prunings and they will
heat like compost and break down to a dark humus-like material in a
matter of weeks. Wood chips need lots of nitrogen and moisture added
to compost anywhere near that way.
In the vineyard such chipped prunings will last two to three years as
mulch. They provide the humic acids that soil flora needs and promote
more even levels of moisture and nutrients.
Granted, results will vary with different soils, and it's not that
easy to get enough chipped tree prunings, but results are favorable in
most conditions.
All I can say is to try it on an area of the vineyard and see.
Anything that helps the life of the soil will aid the vines in the
long run.
-Lon Rombough

NEW grape pruning video: http://www.bunchgrapes.com/dvd.html View a
short, low resolution clip he http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q58zFY0B1M
Grapes, writing, consulting, my book, The Grape Grower, at
http://www.bunchgrapes.com Winner of the Garden Writers Association
"Best Talent in Writing" award for 2003."

and in response to a follow up question about mulch compounding issues
with excessive vigor:

"That depends some on the soil. Generally vines will grow better
with mulch because moisture stays more constant in the soil. Without
mulch moisture fluctuates more, which will stress and slow vines more
than constant or gradually decreasing moisture.
-Lon"

In "The Grape Grower", Lon references a Cornell study where the best
results for both moisture retention and grape yield/sugar was from
planting rye in the fall, which was killed by Roundup in the spring
and left on the ground as a mulch.

wrote:

>> I don't see why you think using wood chip mulch is "Organic" growing.
>> If one wanted to get a good start with their grapes AND they had nutrient
>> requirements that their soil did not meet, then I might suggest mature
>> compost but not wood chip mulch.
>
> How can you suggest anything when you have no experience at it? I have
> years of evidence that proves wood chips are the deal and a doctor in
> Washington who will back up my observations.

AGAIN. Where do you live? What varieties do you grow? How many vines do
you have?

On Sep 15, 11:21*pm, shbailey > wrote:
> On Sep 15, 11:24 am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> wrote:
>
> > I don't see why you think using wood chip mulch is "Organic" growing.
> > If one wanted to get a good start with their grapes AND they had nutrient
> > requirements that their soil did not meet, then I might suggest mature
> > compost but not wood chip mulch.
>
> I emailed Lon Rombough, the author of "The Grape Grower - A Guide to
> Organic Viticulture" about the subject of mulch. *Here is his reply:
>
> "The type of mulch makes a difference. *Wood chips are a lot different
> than chipped tree prunings, such as tree services produce. *Chipped
> pruning material is a mix of chip/chunk sizes and contains leaf matter
> and ramial wood (small twigs). *Such material has enough nitrogen to
> keep it from taking N from the soil, but enough large material that it
> decomposes slowly when used as mulch. *This is a lot different than
> using straight wood chips, which DO take N from the soil and can cake
> on the soil. *Want *proof? *Pile up chipped prunings and they will
> heat like compost and break down to a dark humus-like material in a
> matter of weeks. *Wood chips need lots of nitrogen and moisture added
> to compost anywhere near that way.
> In the vineyard such chipped prunings will last two to three years as
> mulch. *They provide the humic acids that soil flora needs and promote
> more even levels of moisture and nutrients.
> Granted, results will vary with different soils, and it's not that
> easy to get enough chipped tree prunings, but results are favorable in
> most conditions.
> All I can say is to try it on an area of the vineyard and see.
> Anything that helps the life of the soil will aid the vines in the
> long run.
> -Lon Rombough
>
> NEW grape pruning video:http://www.bunchgrapes.com/dvd.htmlView a
> short, low resolution clip hehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q58zFY0B1M
> Grapes, writing, consulting, my book, The Grape Grower, athttp://www.bunchgrapes.com*Winner of the Garden Writers Association
> "Best Talent in Writing" award for 2003."
>
> and in response to a follow up question about mulch compounding issues
> with excessive vigor:
>
> "That depends some on the soil. * Generally vines will grow better
> with mulch because moisture stays more constant in the soil. *Without
> mulch moisture fluctuates more, which will stress and slow vines more
> than *constant or gradually decreasing *moisture.
> -Lon"
>
> In "The Grape Grower", Lon references a Cornell study where the best
> results for both moisture retention and grape yield/sugar was from
> planting rye in the fall, which was killed by Roundup in the spring
> and left on the ground as a mulch.

What a surprise. Where do you think I got some of what I'm talking
about? Lon is a big Mychorrdial (sp?) fungus fan. I'm surprised he
didn't mention the amount of that fungus that is produced by wood
chips. I took his enthusiasm for the fungus and noticed how much was
produced by wood chip mulch and put the 2 together.

I do disagree with one thing Lon says. I haven't seen any difference
in the effects wood chips have on the vines whether it's all wood or
if it has leaves mixed in. Either way, I don't think it has any effect
on the nitrogen in the soil, at least from what I have observed. Both
types of wood chips yield very healthy grapevines. What I KNOW will
make a difference is if you put a big coating of wood chips over dry
soil . The soil needs to we moist before adding chips. The chips seal
the soil while also regulating the water moving down. If the soil is
dry the chips may keep the soil too dry which will effect nutrient
uptake which will result in it looking like the chips are robbing
nutrients from the soil when all is happening is the soil is too dry.



On Sep 16, 7:53*am, wrote:
> What a surprise. Where do you think I got some of what I'm talking
> about? Lon is a big Mychorrdial (sp?) fungus fan. I'm surprised he
> didn't mention the amount of that fungus that is produced by wood
> chips. I took his enthusiasm for the fungus and noticed how much was
> produced by wood chip mulch and put the 2 together.

The difference he discusses between straight chips and prunings makes
perfect sense to me. Thanks for posting.

Winter rye sounds easy enough to do and makes sense as well.

Thanks again

shbailey wrote:
> On Sep 15, 11:24 am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> wrote:
>
>> I don't see why you think using wood chip mulch is "Organic" growing.
>> If one wanted to get a good start with their grapes AND they had nutrient
>> requirements that their soil did not meet, then I might suggest mature
>> compost but not wood chip mulch.
>
> I emailed Lon Rombough, the author of "The Grape Grower - A Guide to
> Organic Viticulture" about the subject of mulch. Here is his reply:
>
> "The type of mulch makes a difference. Wood chips are a lot different
> than chipped tree prunings, such as tree services produce. Chipped
> pruning material is a mix of chip/chunk sizes and contains leaf matter
> and ramial wood (small twigs). Such material has enough nitrogen to
> keep it from taking N from the soil, but enough large material that it
> decomposes slowly when used as mulch. This is a lot different than
> using straight wood chips, which DO take N from the soil and can cake
> on the soil. Want proof? Pile up chipped prunings and they will
> heat like compost and break down to a dark humus-like material in a
> matter of weeks. Wood chips need lots of nitrogen and moisture added
> to compost anywhere near that way.
> In the vineyard such chipped prunings will last two to three years as
> mulch. They provide the humic acids that soil flora needs and promote
> more even levels of moisture and nutrients.
> Granted, results will vary with different soils, and it's not that
> easy to get enough chipped tree prunings, but results are favorable in
> most conditions.
> All I can say is to try it on an area of the vineyard and see.
> Anything that helps the life of the soil will aid the vines in the
> long run.
> -Lon Rombough
>
> NEW grape pruning video: http://www.bunchgrapes.com/dvd.html View a
> short, low resolution clip he http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q58zFY0B1M
> Grapes, writing, consulting, my book, The Grape Grower, at
> http://www.bunchgrapes.com Winner of the Garden Writers Association
> "Best Talent in Writing" award for 2003."
>
> and in response to a follow up question about mulch compounding issues
> with excessive vigor:
>
> "That depends some on the soil. Generally vines will grow better
> with mulch because moisture stays more constant in the soil. Without
> mulch moisture fluctuates more, which will stress and slow vines more
> than constant or gradually decreasing moisture.
> -Lon"
>
> In "The Grape Grower", Lon references a Cornell study where the best
> results for both moisture retention and grape yield/sugar was from
> planting rye in the fall, which was killed by Roundup in the spring
> and left on the ground as a mulch.

> The difference he discusses between straight chips and prunings makes
> perfect sense to me. *Thanks for posting.
>
> Winter rye sounds easy enough to do and makes sense as well.

I know this won't be a surprise but it doesn't make any sense to me.
In fact, his differentiation of the different types of wood chips is
confusing to me. I see no difference and have mountains of different
types in my yard and have never noticed a difference. Anyway, have a
tree service dump a load of chips in your yard this fall and let them
sit there. In the spring you'll notice fungus growing in the first 4
or 5 inches when you put a shovel in it. It's white stringy stuff.
Most gardeners think it's because the compost pile is "rotting" and it
must be bad. Well, it's not. It's good, at least according to this
article:

http://www.bunchgrapes.com/mycorrhiza.html

Also notice how far the mositure penetrates the pile. As you dig in
there is a spot where the pile will start turning dry. That is maximum
depth I would pile the chips on the ground over the vines. I use about
4 inches to be safe.

One more comment on Mychorrhizal fungus and other bacteria. If I was
to springle the fungus on the ground in my yard it would die. There
isn't enough moisture to keep it alive. That is why wood chips are so
great. Under the surface is always moist, not wet, moist. It is the
perfect environment for all this fungus and bacteria to grow and that
doesn't even include the thousands of earthworms that are there now
that weren't there before I started mulching with chips. Anyway, what
I'm saying is that all this good stuff needs moisture and the mulch
provides a constant moist environment for it.



On Sep 16, 8:36*am, wrote:
> > The difference he discusses between straight chips and prunings makes
> > perfect sense to me. *Thanks for posting.
>
> > Winter rye sounds easy enough to do and makes sense as well.
>
> I know this won't be a surprise but it doesn't make any sense to me.
> In fact, his differentiation of the different types of wood chips is
> confusing to me. I see no difference and have mountains of different
> types in my yard and have never noticed a difference. Anyway, have a
> tree service dump a load of chips in your yard this fall and let them
> sit there. In the spring you'll notice fungus growing in the first 4
> or 5 inches when you put a shovel in it. It's white stringy stuff.
> Most gardeners think it's because the compost pile is "rotting" and it
> must be bad. Well, it's not. It's good, at least according to this
> article:
>
> http://www.bunchgrapes.com/mycorrhiza.html
>
> Also notice how far the mositure penetrates the pile. As you dig in
> there is a spot where the pile will start turning dry. That is maximum
> depth I would pile the chips on the ground over the vines. I use about
> 4 inches to be safe.

wrote:
>> The difference he discusses between straight chips and prunings makes
>> perfect sense to me. Thanks for posting.
>>
>> Winter rye sounds easy enough to do and makes sense as well.
>
> I know this won't be a surprise but it doesn't make any sense to me.
> In fact, his differentiation of the different types of wood chips is
> confusing to me.

It makes sense to me b/c the leaf material included in the prunings is a
nitrogen supplement

On Sep 16, 10:54*am, BobF > wrote:
> wrote:
> >> The difference he discusses between straight chips and prunings makes
> >> perfect sense to me. *Thanks for posting.
>
> >> Winter rye sounds easy enough to do and makes sense as well.
>
> > I know this won't be a surprise but it doesn't make any sense to me.
> > In fact, his differentiation of the different types of wood chips is
> > confusing to me.
>
> It makes sense to me b/c the leaf material included in the prunings is a
> nitrogen supplement

Funny, leaves were always considered carbon based until today.

wrote:
> On Sep 16, 10:54 am, BobF > wrote:
>> wrote:
>>>> The difference he discusses between straight chips and prunings makes
>>>> perfect sense to me. Thanks for posting.
>>>> Winter rye sounds easy enough to do and makes sense as well.
>>> I know this won't be a surprise but it doesn't make any sense to me.
>>> In fact, his differentiation of the different types of wood chips is
>>> confusing to me.
>> It makes sense to me b/c the leaf material included in the prunings is a
>> nitrogen supplement
>
> Funny, leaves were always considered carbon based until today.

by that logic, isn't *everything alive* carbon based?

> by that logic, isn't *everything alive* carbon based?

Yes. You hit the nail right on the head. Did you know that the
biologically stable state of nitrogen is as a gas and the stable state
of carbon is as a solid? Why is it that dry leaves are considered high
in carbon and wet ( live) leaves considered high in nitrogen? Did you
know if you fertilized your lawn with urea pellets and it didn't rain
they would still evaporate? Is dry grass considered high in carbon or
high in nitrogen? Does nitrogen dissolve in water? What constitutes
75% of the gases in the atmosphere?

wrote:
>> by that logic, isn't *everything alive* carbon based?
>
> Yes. You hit the nail right on the head. Did you know that the
> biologically stable state of nitrogen is as a gas and the stable state
> of carbon is as a solid? Why is it that dry leaves are considered high
> in carbon and wet ( live) leaves considered high in nitrogen? Did you
> know if you fertilized your lawn with urea pellets and it didn't rain
> they would still evaporate? Is dry grass considered high in carbon or
> high in nitrogen? Does nitrogen dissolve in water? What constitutes
> 75% of the gases in the atmosphere?
>

OK, now I'm joining everybody else ... I'm through with you.
Intelligent discussion I can handle. Sarcasm and condescension I won't
tolerate.

The last post wasn't sarcastic at all. If you thought that then I
apologize. I actually thought you didn't know everything alive was
carbon based. In fact I wasn't sure how to take YOUR post.

>
> OK, now I'm joining everybody else ... I'm through with you.
> Intelligent discussion I can handle. *Sarcasm and condescension I won't
> tolerate.

wrote:
> The last post wasn't sarcastic at all. If you thought that then I
> apologize. I actually thought you didn't know everything alive was
> carbon based. In fact I wasn't sure how to take YOUR post.
>

The point of my post was that everything alive *is* carbon based ...

Look. Mulch with what you want. I sincerely wish you tremendous success.

BobF wrote:

> wrote:
>> The last post wasn't sarcastic at all. If you thought that then I
>> apologize. I actually thought you didn't know everything alive was
>> carbon based. In fact I wasn't sure how to take YOUR post.
>>
>
> The point of my post was that everything alive *is* carbon based ...
>
> Look. Mulch with what you want. I sincerely wish you tremendous success.

He will need all the "success" he can muster if he actually ferments his
wine in Rubbermaid trash containers like he advised others to do.

For the benefit of others who have not followed his advice on other posts;
DO NOT ferment in Rubbermaid trash containers. They are NOT FDA approved
for foods and the WILL leach out toxins you do not want in your wine or
body. Of course, doublesb may put a few bark much wood chips in these also
to absorb all the toxins :-(

On Sep 16, 3:54*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
wrote:
> BobF wrote:
> > wrote:
> >> The last post wasn't sarcastic at all. If you thought that then I
> >> apologize. I actually thought you didn't know everything alive was
> >> carbon based. In fact I wasn't sure how to take YOUR post.
>
> > The point of my post was that everything alive *is* carbon based ...
>
> > Look. *Mulch with what you want. *I sincerely wish you tremendous success.
>
> He will need all the "success" he can muster if he actually ferments his
> wine in Rubbermaid trash containers like he advised others to do. *
>
> For the benefit of others who have not followed his advice on other posts;
> DO NOT ferment in Rubbermaid trash containers. *They are NOT FDA approved
> for foods and the WILL leach out toxins you do not want in your wine or
> body. *Of course, doublesb may put a few bark much wood chips in these also
> to absorb all the toxins :-(

...... sorry new to the thread and the group but while we are on the
subject, what " trash size" containers are FDA approved and where is
the best place to get them?

jay wrote:

> On Sep 16, 3:54Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> wrote:
>> BobF wrote:
>> > wrote:
>> >> The last post wasn't sarcastic at all. If you thought that then I
>> >> apologize. I actually thought you didn't know everything alive was
>> >> carbon based. In fact I wasn't sure how to take YOUR post.
>>
>> > The point of my post was that everything alive *is* carbon based ...
>>
>> > Look. Â*Mulch with what you want. Â*I sincerely wish you tremendous
>> > success.
>>
>> He will need all the "success" he can muster if he actually ferments his
>> wine in Rubbermaid trash containers like he advised others to do.
>>
>> For the benefit of others who have not followed his advice on other
>> posts; DO NOT ferment in Rubbermaid trash containers. Â*They are NOT FDA
>> approved for foods and the WILL leach out toxins you do not want in your
>> wine or body. Â*Of course, doublesb may put a few bark much wood chips in
>> these also to absorb all the toxins :-(
>
> ..... sorry new to the thread and the group but while we are on the
> subject, what " trash size" containers are FDA approved and where is
> the best place to get them?

Here is a good place to buy. There may be a place closer to you. The
shipping charges might be a bit much for you out in Washington but here is
the link and you can get an idea of what you might want. The Brute Trash
containers are NOT FDA approved so stay clear of them. It would be a good
idea to call US plastics and ask them to ship you a printed catalog. It is
a lot easier to find things that way for me. They also have a tech support
staff that will answer your questions as to which containers are safe for
fermenting wine.

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/def...?cookie_test=1