I received some very interesting advice a month or two ago,concerning
the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained in the Double Guyot
method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two leaves earlier when the
canopy was in full growth,and since the beginning of August have left
more on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
to help ripening.
I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening well.My
mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or whites.However one
of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of weeks before harvest,which
will be early this year in England.Our temperatures have not been
great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures have
not fallen below 15C.I live about 120 miles from my vines,so have to
make a judgement when to visit.The average temperature (24hr average)
at present is about 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of
thumb to estimate the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr)
temperature.

I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there has
been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they have all
fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this is the same
with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is crucial,and with a large
crop,it is important to maintain a maximum leaf area,consistent with
keeping protection against powdery mildew-good air flow and spray
coverage.

I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of garden
compost around each vine in the early spring period.I had not done
this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous enough in our
cool climate.However,although the vigour has increased somewhat
further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with little powdery mildew,
and I had a very good flower set.I think the compost keeps the soil
more moist,thus avoiding a major powdery mildew attack in very dry
spells.

Michael

"I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
ripening fruit."

"I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
to help ripening."

I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling leaves
doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The vine takes time
to readjust it's physiology to compensate for the lost leaves. In an
environment like yours you need all the leaves you can get. People who
grow grapes in California or an area with more sunshine and heat have
much more room to hack up the vines, you don't.

"

On Aug 28, 8:36*am, michael > wrote:
> I received some very interesting advice a month or two ago,concerning
> the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained in the Double Guyot
> method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two leaves earlier when the
> canopy was in full growth,and since the beginning of August have left
> more on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> to help ripening.
> I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening well.My
> mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
> with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or whites.However one
> of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of weeks before harvest,which
> will be early this year in England.Our temperatures have not been
> great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures have
> not fallen below 15C.I live about 120 miles from my vines,so have to
> make a judgement when to visit.The average temperature (24hr average)
> at present is about 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of
> thumb to estimate the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr)
> temperature.
>
> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
> produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there has
> been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they have all
> fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this is the same
> with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is crucial,and with a large
> crop,it is important to maintain a maximum leaf area,consistent with
> keeping protection against powdery mildew-good air flow and spray
> coverage.
>
> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of garden
> compost around each vine in the early spring period.I had not done
> this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous enough in our
> cool climate.However,although the vigour has increased somewhat
> further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with little powdery mildew,
> and I had a very good flower set.I think the compost keeps the soil
> more moist,thus avoiding a major powdery mildew attack in very dry
> spells.
>
> Michael

wrote:

> "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> ripening fruit."
>
> "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> to help ripening."
>
> I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling leaves
> doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The vine takes time
> to readjust it's physiology to compensate for the lost leaves. In an
> environment like yours you need all the leaves you can get. People who
> grow grapes in California or an area with more sunshine and heat have
> much more room to hack up the vines, you don't.

Here is an excellent article on the subject.
Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments but also note
the authors comments about situations of extreme vigor.

http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457

Paul

>> On Aug 28, 8:36Â*am, michael > wrote:
>> I received some very interesting advice a month or two ago,concerning
>> the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained in the Double Guyot
>> method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two leaves earlier when the
>> canopy was in full growth,and since the beginning of August have left
>> more on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
>> to help ripening.
>> I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening well.My
>> mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
>> with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or whites.However one
>> of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of weeks before harvest,which
>> will be early this year in England.Our temperatures have not been
>> great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures have
>> not fallen below 15C.I live about 120 miles from my vines,so have to
>> make a judgement when to visit.The average temperature (24hr average)
>> at present is about 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of
>> thumb to estimate the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr)
>> temperature.
>>
>> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
>> ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
>> produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there has
>> been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they have all
>> fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this is the same
>> with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is crucial,and with a large
>> crop,it is important to maintain a maximum leaf area,consistent with
>> keeping protection against powdery mildew-good air flow and spray
>> coverage.
>>
>> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of garden
>> compost around each vine in the early spring period.I had not done
>> this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous enough in our
>> cool climate.However,although the vigour has increased somewhat
>> further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with little powdery mildew,
>> and I had a very good flower set.I think the compost keeps the soil
>> more moist,thus avoiding a major powdery mildew attack in very dry
>> spells.
>>
>> Michael

On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> wrote:
> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> > *ripening fruit."
>
> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> > *to help ripening."
>
> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling leaves
> > doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The vine takes time
> > to readjust it's physiology to compensate for the lost leaves. In an
> > environment like yours you need alent from the leaves you can get. People who
> > grow grapes in California or an area with more sunshine and heat have
> > much more room to hack up the vines, you don't.
>
> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments but also note
> the authors comments about situations of extreme vigor.
>
> http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> >> On Aug 28, 8:36*am, michael > wrote:
> >> I received some very interesting advice a month or two ago,concerning
> >> the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained in the Double Guyot
> >> method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two leaves earlier when the
> >> canopy was in full growth,and since the beginning of August have left
> >> more on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> >> to help ripening.
> >> I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening well.My
> >> mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
> >> with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or whites.However one
> >> of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of weeks before harvest,which
> >> will be early this year in England.Our temperatures have not been
> >> great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures have
> >> not fallen below 15C.I live about 120 miles from my vines,so have to
> >> make a judgement when to visit.The average temperature (24hr average)
> >> at present is about 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of
> >> thumb to estimate the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr)
> >> temperature.
>
> >> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> >> ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
> >> produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there has
> >> been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they have all
> >> fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this is the same
> >> with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is crucial,and with a large
> >> crop,it is important to maintain a maximum leaf area,consistent with
> >> keeping protection against powdery mildew-good air flow and spray
> >> coverage.
>
> >> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of garden
> >> compost around each vine in the early spring period.I had not done
> >> this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous enough in our
> >> cool climate.However,although the vigour has increased somewhat
> >> further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with little powdery mildew,
> >> and I had a very good flower set.I think the compost keeps the soil
> >> more moist,thus avoiding a major powdery mildew attack in very dry
> >> spells.
>
> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks for those comments.

The article you gave,Paul, is extremely interesting,and seems to deal
exactly with my problems.I will study the article in more detail,but
the comments on timing of removal of laterals seem to suggest that it
is best to remove (or prune to three leaves) most of these during the
early flowering and fruit set period,but leave them after veraison
into the ripening phase.I think this is something like my practice.I
find that I have to remove the laterals in June,otherwise the canopy
becomes a completely tangled mess (especially this year after using
compost)-but this is the period of flowering and fruitset,so
presumably fine.Later from mid August,the vigour of the canopy slows
down,and more laterals can be left.However I still find myself hedging
the top of the canopy,which creates new growth rapidly-if I do not do
this the canopy can become unstable in quite light winds we have in
September/October.

I was also very interested in the comment from doubi...,that using
compost can add 2 Brix to the juice.I have certainly noted how much
healthier my vines are this year-and more vigorous!! I have use
garden compost plus some added fish blood and bone.Is it sensible to
add compost each year,and in your experience,when is the best time to
add it?

Thanks again,Michael

michael wrote:

> On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
>> > ripening fruit."
>>
>> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
>> > to help ripening."
>>
>> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling leaves
>> > doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The vine takes time
>> > to readjust it's physiology to compensate for the lost leaves. In an
>> > environment like yours you need alent from the leaves you can get.
>> > People who grow grapes in California or an area with more sunshine and
>> > heat have much more room to hack up the vines, you don't.
>>
>> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
>> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments but also note
>> the authors comments about situations of extreme vigor.
>>
>> http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>> >> On Aug 28, 8:36Â*am, michael > wrote:
>> >> I received some very interesting advice a month or two ago,concerning
>> >> the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained in the Double Guyot
>> >> method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two leaves earlier when the
>> >> canopy was in full growth,and since the beginning of August have left
>> >> more on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
>> >> to help ripening.
>> >> I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening well.My
>> >> mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
>> >> with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or whites.However one
>> >> of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of weeks before harvest,which
>> >> will be early this year in England.Our temperatures have not been
>> >> great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures have
>> >> not fallen below 15C.I live about 120 miles from my vines,so have to
>> >> make a judgement when to visit.The average temperature (24hr average)
>> >> at present is about 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of
>> >> thumb to estimate the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr)
>> >> temperature.
>>
>> >> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
>> >> ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
>> >> produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there has
>> >> been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they have all
>> >> fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this is the same
>> >> with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is crucial,and with a large
>> >> crop,it is important to maintain a maximum leaf area,consistent with
>> >> keeping protection against powdery mildew-good air flow and spray
>> >> coverage.
>>
>> >> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of garden
>> >> compost around each vine in the early spring period.I had not done
>> >> this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous enough in our
>> >> cool climate.However,although the vigour has increased somewhat
>> >> further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with little powdery mildew,
>> >> and I had a very good flower set.I think the compost keeps the soil
>> >> more moist,thus avoiding a major powdery mildew attack in very dry
>> >> spells.
>>
>> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Thanks for those comments.
>
> The article you gave,Paul, is extremely interesting,and seems to deal
> exactly with my problems.I will study the article in more detail,but
> the comments on timing of removal of laterals seem to suggest that it
> is best to remove (or prune to three leaves) most of these during the
> early flowering and fruit set period,but leave them after veraison
> into the ripening phase.I think this is something like my practice.I
> find that I have to remove the laterals in June,otherwise the canopy
> becomes a completely tangled mess (especially this year after using
> compost)-but this is the period of flowering and fruitset,so
> presumably fine.Later from mid August,the vigour of the canopy slows
> down,and more laterals can be left.However I still find myself hedging
> the top of the canopy,which creates new growth rapidly-if I do not do
> this the canopy can become unstable in quite light winds we have in
> September/October.
>
> I was also very interested in the comment from doubi...,that using
> compost can add 2 Brix to the juice.I have certainly noted how much
> healthier my vines are this year-and more vigorous!! I have use
> garden compost plus some added fish blood and bone.Is it sensible to
> add compost each year,and in your experience,when is the best time to
> add it?
>
> Thanks again,Michael

I seriously doubt than adding compost will add 2 brix. I would like to see
doubi, or whatever his name actually is, point us to a literature cite.

This flies in the face of research that indicates that when you already have
vigorous growth, you do not further your problem. I think most research
would indicate that increased vegetative growth has a negative effect on
grape berry maturity.

In my opinion and experience, adding brix is done by increasing growing
degree days, hours of sunlight or cropping your vines so that you do not
over crop.

On 3 Sep, 02:50, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> michael wrote:
> > On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> >> > ripening fruit."
>
> >> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> >> > to help ripening."
>
> >> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling leaves
> >> > doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The vine takes time
> >> > to readjust it's physiology to compensate for the lost leaves. In an
> >> > environment like yours you need alent from *the leaves you can get..
> >> > People who grow grapes in California or an area with more sunshine and
> >> > heat have much more room to hack up the vines, you don't.
>
> >> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
> >> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments but also note
> >> the authors comments about situations of extreme vigor.
>
> >>http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>
> >> Paul
>
> >> >> On Aug 28, 8:36*am, michael > wrote:
> >> >> I received some very interesting advice a month or two ago,concerning
> >> >> the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained in the Double Guyot
> >> >> method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two leaves earlier when the
> >> >> canopy was in full growth,and since the beginning of August have left
> >> >> more on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> >> >> to help ripening.
> >> >> I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening well.My
> >> >> mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
> >> >> with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or whites.However one
> >> >> of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of weeks before harvest,which
> >> >> will be early this year in England.Our temperatures have not been
> >> >> great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures have
> >> >> not fallen below 15C.I live about 120 miles from my vines,so have to
> >> >> make a judgement when to visit.The average temperature (24hr average)
> >> >> at present is about 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of
> >> >> thumb to estimate the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr)
> >> >> temperature.
>
> >> >> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> >> >> ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
> >> >> produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there has
> >> >> been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they have all
> >> >> fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this is the same
> >> >> with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is crucial,and with a large
> >> >> crop,it is important to maintain a maximum leaf area,consistent with
> >> >> keeping protection against powdery mildew-good air flow and spray
> >> >> coverage.
>
> >> >> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of garden
> >> >> compost around each vine in the early spring period.I had not done
> >> >> this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous enough in our
> >> >> cool climate.However,although the vigour has increased somewhat
> >> >> further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with little powdery mildew,
> >> >> and I had a very good flower set.I think the compost keeps the soil
> >> >> more moist,thus avoiding a major powdery mildew attack in very dry
> >> >> spells.
>
> >> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Thanks for those comments.
>
> > The article you gave,Paul, is extremely interesting,and seems to deal
> > exactly with my problems.I will study the article in more detail,but
> > the comments on timing of removal of laterals seem to suggest that it
> > is best to remove (or prune to three leaves) most of *these during the
> > early flowering and fruit set period,but leave them after veraison
> > into the ripening phase.I think this is something like my practice.I
> > find that I have to remove the laterals in June,otherwise the canopy
> > becomes a completely tangled mess (especially this year after using
> > compost)-but this is the period of flowering and fruitset,so
> > presumably fine.Later from mid August,the vigour of the canopy slows
> > down,and more laterals can be left.However I still find myself hedging
> > the top of the canopy,which creates new growth rapidly-if I do not do
> > this the canopy can become unstable in quite light winds we have in
> > September/October.
>
> > I was also very interested in the comment from doubi...,that using
> > compost can add 2 Brix to the juice.I have certainly noted how much
> > healthier my vines are this year-and more vigorous!! *I have use
> > garden compost plus some added fish blood and bone.Is it sensible to
> > add compost each year,and in your experience,when is the best time to
> > add it?
>
> > Thanks again,Michael
>
> I seriously doubt than adding compost will add 2 brix. *I would like to see
> doubi, or whatever his name actually is, point us to a literature cite.
>
> This flies in the face of research that indicates that when you already have
> vigorous growth, you do not further your problem. *I think most research
> would indicate that increased vegetative growth has a negative effect on
> grape berry maturity.
>
> In my opinion and experience, adding brix is done by increasing growing
> degree days, hours of sunlight or cropping your vines so that you do not
> over crop.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi again,
Does the ripening process depend on hours of sunlight
or degree-days.This year my vines are cropping earlier than
normal.There is also a very heavy crop,probably due to the excellent
very warm June we had here.Since June the weather here has been
mediocre during the day with average or slightly below average
temperatures.However the overnight temperatures have been very
consistently in the 14-17C minimum range ,which is well above average
for England.So I am postulating that it is the number of degree-days
(above 10C I think) over a 24 hr period which is ripening my grapes
early.There certainly has been a shortage of sunshine this year.
On the compost question,I thought that it was always useful to add
compost around the vine (maybe without any added fertiliser
annually),to avoid the vines roots drying out during a very dry
spell,which would encourage powdery mildew.My vines are on a s-facing
slope on dry limestone soil,so always have a tendency to dry out.
Several books on vineyard management do encourage the use of
compost,but maybe my vines are vigorous enough.
Best regards
Michael

On Sep 2, 8:50*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> michael wrote:
> > On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> >> > ripening fruit."
>
> >> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> >> > to help ripening."
>
> >> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling leaves
> >> > doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The vine takes time
> >> > to readjust it's physiology to compensate for the lost leaves. In an
> >> > environment like yours you need alent from *the leaves you can get..
> >> > People who grow grapes in California or an area with more sunshine and
> >> > heat have much more room to hack up the vines, you don't.
>
> >> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
> >> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments but also note
> >> the authors comments about situations of extreme vigor.
>
> >>http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>
> >> Paul
>
> >> >> On Aug 28, 8:36*am, michael > wrote:
> >> >> I received some very interesting advice a month or two ago,concerning
> >> >> the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained in the Double Guyot
> >> >> method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two leaves earlier when the
> >> >> canopy was in full growth,and since the beginning of August have left
> >> >> more on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> >> >> to help ripening.
> >> >> I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening well.My
> >> >> mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
> >> >> with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or whites.However one
> >> >> of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of weeks before harvest,which
> >> >> will be early this year in England.Our temperatures have not been
> >> >> great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures have
> >> >> not fallen below 15C.I live about 120 miles from my vines,so have to
> >> >> make a judgement when to visit.The average temperature (24hr average)
> >> >> at present is about 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of
> >> >> thumb to estimate the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr)
> >> >> temperature.
>
> >> >> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> >> >> ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
> >> >> produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there has
> >> >> been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they have all
> >> >> fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this is the same
> >> >> with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is crucial,and with a large
> >> >> crop,it is important to maintain a maximum leaf area,consistent with
> >> >> keeping protection against powdery mildew-good air flow and spray
> >> >> coverage.
>
> >> >> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of garden
> >> >> compost around each vine in the early spring period.I had not done
> >> >> this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous enough in our
> >> >> cool climate.However,although the vigour has increased somewhat
> >> >> further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with little powdery mildew,
> >> >> and I had a very good flower set.I think the compost keeps the soil
> >> >> more moist,thus avoiding a major powdery mildew attack in very dry
> >> >> spells.
>
> >> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Thanks for those comments.
>
> > The article you gave,Paul, is extremely interesting,and seems to deal
> > exactly with my problems.I will study the article in more detail,but
> > the comments on timing of removal of laterals seem to suggest that it
> > is best to remove (or prune to three leaves) most of *these during the
> > early flowering and fruit set period,but leave them after veraison
> > into the ripening phase.I think this is something like my practice.I
> > find that I have to remove the laterals in June,otherwise the canopy
> > becomes a completely tangled mess (especially this year after using
> > compost)-but this is the period of flowering and fruitset,so
> > presumably fine.Later from mid August,the vigour of the canopy slows
> > down,and more laterals can be left.However I still find myself hedging
> > the top of the canopy,which creates new growth rapidly-if I do not do
> > this the canopy can become unstable in quite light winds we have in
> > September/October.
>
> > I was also very interested in the comment from doubi...,that using
> > compost can add 2 Brix to the juice.I have certainly noted how much
> > healthier my vines are this year-and more vigorous!! *I have use
> > garden compost plus some added fish blood and bone.Is it sensible to
> > add compost each year,and in your experience,when is the best time to
> > add it?
>
> > Thanks again,Michael
>
> I seriously doubt than adding compost will add 2 brix. *I would like to see
> doubi, or whatever his name actually is, point us to a literature cite.
>
> This flies in the face of research that indicates that when you already have
> vigorous growth, you do not further your problem. *I think most research
> would indicate that increased vegetative growth has a negative effect on
> grape berry maturity.
>
> In my opinion and experience, adding brix is done by increasing growing
> degree days, hours of sunlight or cropping your vines so that you do not
> over crop.

Paul,

Why don't you mulch a couple vines next year and get back to us with
the results?



On Sep 2, 8:50*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> michael wrote:
> > On 30 Aug, 02:17, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >> > "I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> >> > ripening fruit."
>
> >> > "I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> >> > to help ripening."
>
> >> > I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling leaves
> >> > doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The vine takes time
> >> > to readjust it's physiology to compensate for the lost leaves. In an
> >> > environment like yours you need alent from *the leaves you can get..
> >> > People who grow grapes in California or an area with more sunshine and
> >> > heat have much more room to hack up the vines, you don't.
>
> >> Here is an excellent article on the subject.
> >> Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments but also note
> >> the authors comments about situations of extreme vigor.
>
> >>http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=...e&dataId=10457
>
> >> Paul
>
> >> >> On Aug 28, 8:36*am, michael > wrote:
> >> >> I received some very interesting advice a month or two ago,concerning
> >> >> the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained in the Double Guyot
> >> >> method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two leaves earlier when the
> >> >> canopy was in full growth,and since the beginning of August have left
> >> >> more on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> >> >> to help ripening.
> >> >> I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening well.My
> >> >> mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
> >> >> with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or whites.However one
> >> >> of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of weeks before harvest,which
> >> >> will be early this year in England.Our temperatures have not been
> >> >> great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures have
> >> >> not fallen below 15C.I live about 120 miles from my vines,so have to
> >> >> make a judgement when to visit.The average temperature (24hr average)
> >> >> at present is about 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of
> >> >> thumb to estimate the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr)
> >> >> temperature.
>
> >> >> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> >> >> ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
> >> >> produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there has
> >> >> been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they have all
> >> >> fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this is the same
> >> >> with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is crucial,and with a large
> >> >> crop,it is important to maintain a maximum leaf area,consistent with
> >> >> keeping protection against powdery mildew-good air flow and spray
> >> >> coverage.
>
> >> >> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of garden
> >> >> compost around each vine in the early spring period.I had not done
> >> >> this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous enough in our
> >> >> cool climate.However,although the vigour has increased somewhat
> >> >> further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with little powdery mildew,
> >> >> and I had a very good flower set.I think the compost keeps the soil
> >> >> more moist,thus avoiding a major powdery mildew attack in very dry
> >> >> spells.
>
> >> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Thanks for those comments.
>
> > The article you gave,Paul, is extremely interesting,and seems to deal
> > exactly with my problems.I will study the article in more detail,but
> > the comments on timing of removal of laterals seem to suggest that it
> > is best to remove (or prune to three leaves) most of *these during the
> > early flowering and fruit set period,but leave them after veraison
> > into the ripening phase.I think this is something like my practice.I
> > find that I have to remove the laterals in June,otherwise the canopy
> > becomes a completely tangled mess (especially this year after using
> > compost)-but this is the period of flowering and fruitset,so
> > presumably fine.Later from mid August,the vigour of the canopy slows
> > down,and more laterals can be left.However I still find myself hedging
> > the top of the canopy,which creates new growth rapidly-if I do not do
> > this the canopy can become unstable in quite light winds we have in
> > September/October.
>
> > I was also very interested in the comment from doubi...,that using
> > compost can add 2 Brix to the juice.I have certainly noted how much
> > healthier my vines are this year-and more vigorous!! *I have use
> > garden compost plus some added fish blood and bone.Is it sensible to
> > add compost each year,and in your experience,when is the best time to
> > add it?
>
> > Thanks again,Michael
>
> I seriously doubt than adding compost will add 2 brix. *I would like to see
> doubi, or whatever his name actually is, point us to a literature cite.
>
> This flies in the face of research that indicates that when you already have
> vigorous growth, you do not further your problem. *I think most research
> would indicate that increased vegetative growth has a negative effect on
> grape berry maturity.
>
> In my opinion and experience, adding brix is done by increasing growing
> degree days, hours of sunlight or cropping your vines so that you do not
> over crop.

Michael,

Glad you decided to mulch. You will be happy with the results. Plant
roots can't get at any nutrients unless the soil is moist. I probably
gained 2 brix the first year I mulched. The vines are just healthier
and produce better. If you think about it, grapes are the only plant
on the planet where the growers think mulch is some sort of poisionous
addition. It's pretty hilarious. Anyway, a plant is a plant and if it
makes my tomatoes and peaches sweeter than it's only logical it would
make my grapes sweeter, and it does. My best advice is: never stop
observing.


On Aug 28, 8:36*am, michael > wrote:
> I received some very interesting advice a month or two ago,concerning
> the thinning of vertical shoots for grapes trained in the Double Guyot
> method.I pruned the sidehoots to one or two leaves earlier when the
> canopy was in full growth,and since the beginning of August have left
> more on.I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago
> to help ripening.
> I have an excellent crop this year,which seems to be ripening well.My
> mini vineyard is in Herefordshire,England,and we have to be satisfied
> with Brix values maximising at about 18 for reds or whites.However one
> of my reds is already at 14.0,a couple of weeks before harvest,which
> will be early this year in England.Our temperatures have not been
> great in the daytime at 20-22C,but the night time temperatures have
> not fallen below 15C.I live about 120 miles from my vines,so have to
> make a judgement when to visit.The average temperature (24hr average)
> at present is about 15C,and I am wondering if anyone uses a rule of
> thumb to estimate the increase in Brix/day for a given average(24hr)
> temperature.
>
> I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in
> ripening fruit.We have a large damson tree in our garden,which
> produces a good crop of sweet damsons each year.This year there has
> been an enormous crop (twice or three times normal),and they have all
> fallen now,but with none of them ripe.I assume that this is the same
> with vines.The balance of leaf to fruit is crucial,and with a large
> crop,it is important to maintain a maximum leaf area,consistent with
> keeping protection against powdery mildew-good air flow and spray
> coverage.
>
> I have also for the first time put on a three inch layer of garden
> compost around each vine in the early spring period.I had not done
> this previously,since I thought the vines were vigorous enough in our
> cool climate.However,although the vigour has increased somewhat
> further,the vines look incredibly healthy,with little powdery mildew,
> and I had a very good flower set.I think the compost keeps the soil
> more moist,thus avoiding a major powdery mildew attack in very dry
> spells.
>
> Michael