I grow a few vines in England on the Double Guyot Method.The vines are
quite vigorous as they are on ther own roots.( I propagated them all
from cuttings).I get bud burst in early May,and by end of June the
vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above this wire
and remove the side shoots each week.In all of this I find it
necessary to do a lot of tying in to keep the vines reasonably in
order.I tie an 8" piece of string (2 ply) tightly on to the wire with
a reef knot,and then loosely round the vertical shoot.However,I find
it difficult to tie the shoot onto the 2.5 mm wire tightly enough to
prevent it slipping.Someone has suggested plastic covered thin wire
for ties,but I feel that they will be even more difficult to remove in
the Autumn.Could someone advise of a more secure way?
Michael

michael wrote:

> I grow a few vines in England on the Double Guyot Method.The vines are
> quite vigorous as they are on ther own roots.( I propagated them all
> from cuttings).I get bud burst in early May,and by end of June the
> vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above this wire
> and remove the side shoots each week.In all of this I find it
> necessary to do a lot of tying in to keep the vines reasonably in
> order.I tie an 8" piece of string (2 ply) tightly on to the wire with
> a reef knot,and then loosely round the vertical shoot.However,I find
> it difficult to tie the shoot onto the 2.5 mm wire tightly enough to
> prevent it slipping.Someone has suggested plastic covered thin wire
> for ties,but I feel that they will be even more difficult to remove in
> the Autumn.Could someone advise of a more secure way?
> Michael

Do you have just one catch wire or two, such that one is on each side of the
posts?

The thing that works very well for me and other growers is to use "C" clips
to hold the parallel wires together. Just position your shoot or group of
shoots, pull the two wires close together and bracket them with the "C"
clips. The "C" clips will hold the wires close together and help secure the
shoots in place. There will still be some slippage but not too much and
not near as much as with just tying.

Below is a link for purchasing here in the
US.http://www.orchardvalleysupply.com/ovsstore/pc/showsearchresults.asp?pageStyle=H&resultCnt=10&key word=netting&submit=Go+>>

They can be used for years.

It is sort of hard to explain without pictures. I hope you can picture
this.

HTH.
Paul

On 29 June, 23:05, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> michael wrote:
> > I grow a few vines in England on the Double Guyot Method.The vines are
> > quite vigorous as they are on ther own roots.( I propagated them all
> > from cuttings).I get bud burst in early May,and by end of June the
> > vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above this wire
> > and remove the side shoots each week.In all of this I find it
> > necessary to do a lot of tying in to keep the vines reasonably in
> > order.I tie an 8" piece of string (2 ply) tightly on to the wire with
> > a reef knot,and then loosely round the vertical shoot.However,I find
> > it difficult to tie the shoot onto the 2.5 mm wire tightly enough to
> > prevent it slipping.Someone has suggested plastic covered thin wire
> > for ties,but I feel that they will be even more difficult to remove in
> > the Autumn.Could someone advise of a more secure way?
> > Michael
>
> Do you have just one catch wire or two, such that one is on each side of the
> posts? *
>
> The thing that works very well for me and other growers is to use "C" clips
> to hold the parallel wires together. Just position your shoot or group of
> shoots, pull the two wires close together and bracket them with the "C"
> clips. The "C" clips will hold the wires close together and help secure the
> shoots in place. *There will still be some slippage but not too much and
> not near as much as with just tying.
>
> Below is a link for purchasing here in the
> US.http://www.orchardvalleysupply.com/ovsstore/pc/showsearchresults.asp?....>>
>
> They can be used for years.
>
> It is sort of hard to explain without pictures. *I hope you can picture
> this.
>
> HTH.
> Paul

Thanks for that.I use two rows of double wires,and these clips seem to
be what I need.I assume they are easy to get off at the end of the
season.Can you use them with the early shoots which are thinner ,and
expand when the shoot diameter increases.
I will have to see if I can get these clips in England as the carriage
from the US to England always seems high,
Michael

michael wrote:

> On 29 June, 23:05, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> michael wrote:
>> > I grow a few vines in England on the Double Guyot Method.The vines are
>> > quite vigorous as they are on ther own roots.( I propagated them all
>> > from cuttings).I get bud burst in early May,and by end of June the
>> > vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above this wire
>> > and remove the side shoots each week.In all of this I find it
>> > necessary to do a lot of tying in to keep the vines reasonably in
>> > order.I tie an 8" piece of string (2 ply) tightly on to the wire with
>> > a reef knot,and then loosely round the vertical shoot.However,I find
>> > it difficult to tie the shoot onto the 2.5 mm wire tightly enough to
>> > prevent it slipping.Someone has suggested plastic covered thin wire
>> > for ties,but I feel that they will be even more difficult to remove in
>> > the Autumn.Could someone advise of a more secure way?
>> > Michael
>>
>> Do you have just one catch wire or two, such that one is on each side of
>> the posts?
>>
>> The thing that works very well for me and other growers is to use "C"
>> clips to hold the parallel wires together. Just position your shoot or
>> group of shoots, pull the two wires close together and bracket them with
>> the "C" clips. The "C" clips will hold the wires close together and help
>> secure the shoots in place. Â*There will still be some slippage but not
>> too much and not near as much as with just tying.
>>
>> Below is a link for purchasing here in the
>>
US.http://www.orchardvalleysupply.com/ovsstore/pc/showsearchresults.asp?...>>
>>
>> They can be used for years.
>>
>> It is sort of hard to explain without pictures. Â*I hope you can picture
>> this.
>>
>> HTH.
>> Paul
>
> Thanks for that.I use two rows of double wires,and these clips seem to
> be what I need.I assume they are easy to get off at the end of the
> season.Can you use them with the early shoots which are thinner ,and
> expand when the shoot diameter increases.
> I will have to see if I can get these clips in England as the carriage
> from the US to England always seems high,
> Michael

Yes, you can take them off fairly easily. It depends on the gauge of the
wire you use. If you are using something like 11 gauge wire, they are more
difficult. On 14 gauge wire they are easy to remove. It helps if you just
twist the slotted end of the clip when you remove them. They will go back
into normal shape. Of course, you could just leave some of them on the
wires over winter.

Yes, you can use them on the early shoots on the lower wire. In really
difficult areas, I use them on both sets of wires to help keep the shoots
vertical.

The clips are also good to use if you use bird netting. You do not need to
net the entire vine. Just clip the net on the wire above the fruit zone
and clip the net together under the fruit zone. You can use about a three
or four feet width on each side of the row. The birds will no go down
through the canopy but they will come up from the bottom so you have to
make very sure the netting is secure all along the bottom and around the
trunks.

What varieties are you growing?


Paul

Michael,

I use zip ties also known as electrical ties. They work great and you
can pull them very tight. I don't think anything will slip thru. I
also see you prune off the side shoots. I would advise against that.
They're used by the vine to ripen the fruit. Does your fruit get ripe?
If you think they crowd the canopy too much a technique you could use
is only allow every other bud to shoot in the spring there by spacing
the canopy. Cutting the laterals off is not recommended.

On Jun 29, 5:34*am, michael > wrote:
> I grow a few vines in England on the Double Guyot Method.The vines are
> quite vigorous as they are on ther own roots.( I propagated them all
> from cuttings).I get bud burst in early May,and by end of June the
> vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above this wire
> and remove the side shoots each week.In all of this I find it
> necessary to do a lot of tying in to keep the vines reasonably in
> order.I tie an 8" piece of string (2 ply) tightly on to the wire with
> a reef knot,and then loosely round the vertical shoot.However,I find
> it difficult to tie the shoot onto the 2.5 mm wire tightly enough to
> prevent it slipping.Someone has suggested plastic covered thin wire
> for ties,but I feel that they will be even more difficult to remove in
> the Autumn.Could someone advise of a more secure way?
> Michael

wrote:

> Michael,
>
> I use zip ties also known as electrical ties. They work great and you
> can pull them very tight. I don't think anything will slip thru. I
> also see you prune off the side shoots. I would advise against that.
> They're used by the vine to ripen the fruit. Does your fruit get ripe?
> If you think they crowd the canopy too much a technique you could use
> is only allow every other bud to shoot in the spring there by spacing
> the canopy. Cutting the laterals off is not recommended.

I think we may have had this converstion before.

Electrical ties that would hold the shoot tight enough against the wire also
probably hold them tight enough to girdle the shoot as it grows and prevent
nutrients from reaching the new growth.

I do not know where you are growing your grapes, but here in the East,
EVERYONE I know of, commercial growers and amateurs alike DO prune off
laterials especially those that cause the canopy to be too dense.

As I mentioned before in another response last year, laterals do produce
fruit and this fruit takes energy away from the main shoot fruit. It is
also fruit that will never ripen fully and therefore should not be used in
the harvest.

Perhaps you live in an area that is very dry and you can regulate growth by
the amount of drip irrigation but here in the East and I assume England,
vigor is a major problem.

Shoot thinning is another method used. If one has shoots from secondary or
tertiary buds, then these can be removed, especially if they are not needed
for a spur for next year.

Paul

>
> On Jun 29, 5:34Â*am, michael > wrote:
>> I grow a few vines in England on the Double Guyot Method.The vines are
>> quite vigorous as they are on ther own roots.( I propagated them all
>> from cuttings).I get bud burst in early May,and by end of June the
>> vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above this wire
>> and remove the side shoots each week.In all of this I find it
>> necessary to do a lot of tying in to keep the vines reasonably in
>> order.I tie an 8" piece of string (2 ply) tightly on to the wire with
>> a reef knot,and then loosely round the vertical shoot.However,I find
>> it difficult to tie the shoot onto the 2.5 mm wire tightly enough to
>> prevent it slipping.Someone has suggested plastic covered thin wire
>> for ties,but I feel that they will be even more difficult to remove in
>> the Autumn.Could someone advise of a more secure way?
>> Michael

On Jul 3, 2:09*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> wrote:
> > Michael,
>
> > I use zip ties also known as electrical ties. They work great and you
> > can pull them very tight. I don't think anything will slip thru. I
> > also see you prune off the side shoots. I would advise against that.
> > They're used by the vine to ripen the fruit. Does your fruit get ripe?
> > If you think they crowd the canopy too much a technique you could use
> > is only allow every other bud to shoot in the spring there by spacing
> > the canopy. Cutting the laterals off is not recommended.
>
> I think we may have had this converstion before.
>
> Electrical ties that would hold the shoot tight enough against the wire also
> probably hold them tight enough to girdle the shoot as it grows and prevent
> nutrients from reaching the new growth.
>
> I do not know where you are growing your grapes, but here in the East,
> EVERYONE I know of, commercial growers and amateurs alike DO prune off
> laterials especially those that cause the canopy to be too dense.
>
> As I mentioned before in another response last year, laterals do produce
> fruit and this fruit takes energy away from the main shoot fruit. *It is
> also fruit that will never ripen fully and therefore should not be used in
> the harvest.
>
> Perhaps you live in an area that is very dry and you can regulate growth by
> the amount of drip irrigation but here in the East and I assume England,
> vigor is a major problem.
>
> Shoot thinning is another method used. *If one has shoots from secondary or
> tertiary buds, then these can be removed, especially if they are not needed
> for a spur for next year.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
Michael wrote:

"I get bud burst in early May,and by end of June the
vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above this wire
and remove the side shoots each week."

That is why using zip ties is exactly what he should use. Use the zip
ties on the top wire tied tight and use them loose on the lower ones.
As far as the laterals are concerned, yes, I disagree with you and
there are plenty of other people who do too, Ever leave the laterals
on one vine and see if that vines brix is higher? I betcha it is.

> > On Jun 29, 5:34*am, michael > wrote:
> >> I grow a few vines in England on the Double Guyot Method.The vines are
> >> quite vigorous as they are on ther own roots.( I propagated them all
> >> from cuttings).I get bud burst in early May,and by end of June the
> >> vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above this wire
> >> and remove the side shoots each week.In all of this I find it
> >> necessary to do a lot of tying in to keep the vines reasonably in
> >> order.I tie an 8" piece of string (2 ply) tightly on to the wire with
> >> a reef knot,and then loosely round the vertical shoot.However,I find
> >> it difficult to tie the shoot onto the 2.5 mm wire tightly enough to
> >> prevent it slipping.Someone has suggested plastic covered thin wire
> >> for ties,but I feel that they will be even more difficult to remove in
> >> the Autumn.Could someone advise of a more secure way?
> >> Michael

wrote:

> On Jul 3, 2:09Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > Michael,
>>
>> > I use zip ties also known as electrical ties. They work great and you
>> > can pull them very tight. I don't think anything will slip thru. I
>> > also see you prune off the side shoots. I would advise against that.
>> > They're used by the vine to ripen the fruit. Does your fruit get ripe?
>> > If you think they crowd the canopy too much a technique you could use
>> > is only allow every other bud to shoot in the spring there by spacing
>> > the canopy. Cutting the laterals off is not recommended.
>>
>> I think we may have had this converstion before.
>>
>> Electrical ties that would hold the shoot tight enough against the wire
>> also probably hold them tight enough to girdle the shoot as it grows and
>> prevent nutrients from reaching the new growth.
>>
>> I do not know where you are growing your grapes, but here in the East,
>> EVERYONE I know of, commercial growers and amateurs alike DO prune off
>> laterials especially those that cause the canopy to be too dense.
>>
>> As I mentioned before in another response last year, laterals do produce
>> fruit and this fruit takes energy away from the main shoot fruit. Â*It is
>> also fruit that will never ripen fully and therefore should not be used
>> in the harvest.
>>
>> Perhaps you live in an area that is very dry and you can regulate growth
>> by the amount of drip irrigation but here in the East and I assume
>> England, vigor is a major problem.
>>
>> Shoot thinning is another method used. Â*If one has shoots from secondary
>> or tertiary buds, then these can be removed, especially if they are not
>> needed for a spur for next year.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
> Michael wrote:
>
> "I get bud burst in early May,and by end of June the
> vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above this wire
> and remove the side shoots each week."
>
> That is why using zip ties is exactly what he should use. Use the zip
> ties on the top wire tied tight and use them loose on the lower ones.
> As far as the laterals are concerned, yes, I disagree with you and
> there are plenty of other people who do too, Ever leave the laterals
> on one vine and see if that vines brix is higher? I betcha it is.

I am confused. You say you hedge above the top wire and remove the side
shoots that result from this hedging and leave the other laterals?

I am always willing to learn. Do you have a literature cites so support
your views?


>
>> > On Jun 29, 5:34Â*am, michael > wrote:
>> >> I grow a few vines in England on the Double Guyot Method.The vines are
>> >> quite vigorous as they are on ther own roots.( I propagated them all
>> >> from cuttings).I get bud burst in early May,and by end of June the
>> >> vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above this wire
>> >> and remove the side shoots each week.In all of this I find it
>> >> necessary to do a lot of tying in to keep the vines reasonably in
>> >> order.I tie an 8" piece of string (2 ply) tightly on to the wire with
>> >> a reef knot,and then loosely round the vertical shoot.However,I find
>> >> it difficult to tie the shoot onto the 2.5 mm wire tightly enough to
>> >> prevent it slipping.Someone has suggested plastic covered thin wire
>> >> for ties,but I feel that they will be even more difficult to remove in
>> >> the Autumn.Could someone advise of a more secure way?
>> >> Michael

On 7 July, 13:32, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> wrote:
> > On Jul 3, 2:09*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >> > Michael,
>
> >> > I use zip ties also known as electrical ties. They work great and you
> >> > can pull them very tight. I don't think anything will slip thru. I
> >> > also see you prune off the side shoots. I would advise against that.
> >> > They're used by the vine to ripen the fruit. Does your fruit get ripe?
> >> > If you think they crowd the canopy too much a technique you could use
> >> > is only allow every other bud to shoot in the spring there by spacing
> >> > the canopy. Cutting the laterals off is not recommended.
>
> >> I think we may have had this converstion before.
>
> >> Electrical ties that would hold the shoot tight enough against the wire
> >> also probably hold them tight enough to girdle the shoot as it grows and
> >> prevent nutrients from reaching the new growth.
>
> >> I do not know where you are growing your grapes, but here in the East,
> >> EVERYONE I know of, commercial growers and amateurs alike DO prune off
> >> laterials especially those that cause the canopy to be too dense.
>
> >> As I mentioned before in another response last year, laterals do produce
> >> fruit and this fruit takes energy away from the main shoot fruit. *It is
> >> also fruit that will never ripen fully and therefore should not be used
> >> in the harvest.
>
> >> Perhaps you live in an area that is very dry and you can regulate growth
> >> by the amount of drip irrigation but here in the East and I assume
> >> England, vigor is a major problem.
>
> >> Shoot thinning is another method used. *If one has shoots from secondary
> >> or tertiary buds, then these can be removed, especially if they are not
> >> needed for a spur for next year.
>
> >> Paul
>
> > Michael wrote:
>
> > "I get bud burst in early May,and by end of June the
> > vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above this wire
> > and remove the side shoots each week."
>
> > That is why using zip ties is exactly what he should use. Use the zip
> > ties on the top wire tied tight and use them loose on the lower ones.
> > As far as the laterals are concerned, yes, I disagree with you and
> > there are plenty of other people who do too, Ever leave the laterals
> > on one vine and see if that vines brix is higher? I betcha *it is.
>
> I am confused. *You say you hedge above the top wire and remove the side
> shoots that result from this hedging and leave the other laterals?
>
> I am always willing to learn. *Do you have a literature cites so support
> your views?
>
>
>
>
>
> >> > On Jun 29, 5:34*am, michael > wrote:
> >> >> I grow a few vines in England on the Double Guyot Method.The vines are
> >> >> quite vigorous as they are on ther own roots.( I propagated them all
> >> >> from cuttings).I get bud burst in early May,and by end of June the
> >> >> vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above this wire
> >> >> and remove the side shoots each week.In all of this I find it
> >> >> necessary to do a lot of tying in to keep the vines reasonably in
> >> >> order.I tie an 8" piece of string (2 ply) tightly on to the wire with
> >> >> a reef knot,and then loosely round the vertical shoot.However,I find
> >> >> it difficult to tie the shoot onto the 2.5 mm wire tightly enough to
> >> >> prevent it slipping.Someone has suggested plastic covered thin wire
> >> >> for ties,but I feel that they will be even more difficult to remove in
> >> >> the Autumn.Could someone advise of a more secure way?
> >> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I am not sure whether your comment/question is to me,but I will
clarify.In England which is a cool climate we get very robust growth
from the vertical shoots arising from the two horizontal Guyot
arms.These shoots reach 5' (my top wire) by about end May,and I then
top the shoots,which then encourages lateral side shoots (as in tomato
growing).I take as many of these off as possible by pruning them to
the second leaf.I do this to stop the hedge becoming too tangled and
dense,so that my spraying (mainly wettable sulphur to prevent powdery
mildew) is efficient.Later I remove some of the lower leaves near the
grape bunches to aid ripening.
Is this a sensible procedure or am I losing Brix as someone suggested
Michael

michael wrote:

> On 7 July, 13:32, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > On Jul 3, 2:09Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Michael,
>>
>> >> > I use zip ties also known as electrical ties. They work great and
>> >> > you can pull them very tight. I don't think anything will slip thru.
>> >> > I also see you prune off the side shoots. I would advise against
>> >> > that. They're used by the vine to ripen the fruit. Does your fruit
>> >> > get ripe? If you think they crowd the canopy too much a technique
>> >> > you could use is only allow every other bud to shoot in the spring
>> >> > there by spacing the canopy. Cutting the laterals off is not
>> >> > recommended.
>>
>> >> I think we may have had this converstion before.
>>
>> >> Electrical ties that would hold the shoot tight enough against the
>> >> wire also probably hold them tight enough to girdle the shoot as it
>> >> grows and prevent nutrients from reaching the new growth.
>>
>> >> I do not know where you are growing your grapes, but here in the East,
>> >> EVERYONE I know of, commercial growers and amateurs alike DO prune off
>> >> laterials especially those that cause the canopy to be too dense.
>>
>> >> As I mentioned before in another response last year, laterals do
>> >> produce fruit and this fruit takes energy away from the main shoot
>> >> fruit. Â*It is also fruit that will never ripen fully and therefore
>> >> should not be used in the harvest.
>>
>> >> Perhaps you live in an area that is very dry and you can regulate
>> >> growth by the amount of drip irrigation but here in the East and I
>> >> assume England, vigor is a major problem.
>>
>> >> Shoot thinning is another method used. Â*If one has shoots from
>> >> secondary or tertiary buds, then these can be removed, especially if
>> >> they are not needed for a spur for next year.
>>
>> >> Paul
>>
>> > Michael wrote:
>>
>> > "I get bud burst in early May,and by end of June the
>> > vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above this wire
>> > and remove the side shoots each week."
>>
>> > That is why using zip ties is exactly what he should use. Use the zip
>> > ties on the top wire tied tight and use them loose on the lower ones.
>> > As far as the laterals are concerned, yes, I disagree with you and
>> > there are plenty of other people who do too, Ever leave the laterals
>> > on one vine and see if that vines brix is higher? I betcha Â*it is.
>>
>> I am confused. Â*You say you hedge above the top wire and remove the side
>> shoots that result from this hedging and leave the other laterals?
>>
>> I am always willing to learn. Â*Do you have a literature cites so support
>> your views?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >> > On Jun 29, 5:34Â*am, michael > wrote:
>> >> >> I grow a few vines in England on the Double Guyot Method.The vines
>> >> >> are quite vigorous as they are on ther own roots.( I propagated
>> >> >> them all from cuttings).I get bud burst in early May,and by end of
>> >> >> June the vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above
>> >> >> this wire and remove the side shoots each week.In all of this I
>> >> >> find it necessary to do a lot of tying in to keep the vines
>> >> >> reasonably in order.I tie an 8" piece of string (2 ply) tightly on
>> >> >> to the wire with a reef knot,and then loosely round the vertical
>> >> >> shoot.However,I find it difficult to tie the shoot onto the 2.5 mm
>> >> >> wire tightly enough to prevent it slipping.Someone has suggested
>> >> >> plastic covered thin wire for ties,but I feel that they will be
>> >> >> even more difficult to remove in the Autumn.Could someone advise of
>> >> >> a more secure way? Michael- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I am not sure whether your comment/question is to me,but I will
> clarify.In England which is a cool climate we get very robust growth
> from the vertical shoots arising from the two horizontal Guyot
> arms.These shoots reach 5' (my top wire) by about end May,and I then
> top the shoots,which then encourages lateral side shoots (as in tomato
> growing).I take as many of these off as possible by pruning them to
> the second leaf.I do this to stop the hedge becoming too tangled and
> dense,so that my spraying (mainly wettable sulphur to prevent powdery
> mildew) is efficient.Later I remove some of the lower leaves near the
> grape bunches to aid ripening.
> Is this a sensible procedure or am I losing Brix as someone suggested
> Michael

I think your are doing things right.

doublesb, or whatever his or her real name is, advocates retaining laterals.
In my opinion, this can lead to a canopy that is unmanageable in climates
that promote vigorous growth. It also promotes a "second crop" which will
never ripen but will take energy away from clusters on primary shoots. I
was asking him (doublesp) for literature cites.

What are your growing?
I live in Central Maryland and also have problems with overly vigorous
vines.

Paul

I'm not advocating retaining laterals due to hedginging above the 5'
wire. Cut them off. I'm advocating leaving the natural ones that the
vine forms to help it ripen the fruit. I've NEVER see clusters on
these. While I have read that some vines do develop clusters on these
laterals ( natural ones) , I have never experienced them. If it is a
phenomonon that only happens every once in a while I wouldn't sweat
it.


On Jul 7, 4:09*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> michael wrote:
> > On 7 July, 13:32, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >> > On Jul 3, 2:09*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > Michael,
>
> >> >> > I use zip ties also known as electrical ties. They work great and
> >> >> > you can pull them very tight. I don't think anything will slip thru.
> >> >> > I also see you prune off the side shoots. I would advise against
> >> >> > that. They're used by the vine to ripen the fruit. Does your fruit
> >> >> > get ripe? If you think they crowd the canopy too much a technique
> >> >> > you could use is only allow every other bud to shoot in the spring
> >> >> > there by spacing the canopy. Cutting the laterals off is not
> >> >> > recommended.
>
> >> >> I think we may have had this converstion before.
>
> >> >> Electrical ties that would hold the shoot tight enough against the
> >> >> wire also probably hold them tight enough to girdle the shoot as it
> >> >> grows and prevent nutrients from reaching the new growth.
>
> >> >> I do not know where you are growing your grapes, but here in the East,
> >> >> EVERYONE I know of, commercial growers and amateurs alike DO prune off
> >> >> laterials especially those that cause the canopy to be too dense.
>
> >> >> As I mentioned before in another response last year, laterals do
> >> >> produce fruit and this fruit takes energy away from the main shoot
> >> >> fruit. *It is also fruit that will never ripen fully and therefore
> >> >> should not be used in the harvest.
>
> >> >> Perhaps you live in an area that is very dry and you can regulate
> >> >> growth by the amount of drip irrigation but here in the East and I
> >> >> assume England, vigor is a major problem.
>
> >> >> Shoot thinning is another method used. *If one has shoots from
> >> >> secondary or tertiary buds, then these can be removed, especially if
> >> >> they are not needed for a spur for next year.
>
> >> >> Paul
>
> >> > Michael wrote:
>
> >> > "I get bud burst in early May,and by end of June the
> >> > vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above this wire
> >> > and remove the side shoots each week."
>
> >> > That is why using zip ties is exactly what he should use. Use the zip
> >> > ties on the top wire tied tight and use them loose on the lower ones..
> >> > As far as the laterals are concerned, yes, I disagree with you and
> >> > there are plenty of other people who do too, Ever leave the laterals
> >> > on one vine and see if that vines brix is higher? I betcha *it is.
>
> >> I am confused. *You say you hedge above the top wire and remove the side
> >> shoots that result from this hedging and leave the other laterals?
>
> >> I am always willing to learn. *Do you have a literature cites so support
> >> your views?
>
> >> >> > On Jun 29, 5:34*am, michael > wrote:
> >> >> >> I grow a few vines in England on the Double Guyot Method.The vines
> >> >> >> are quite vigorous as they are on ther own roots.( I propagated
> >> >> >> them all from cuttings).I get bud burst in early May,and by end of
> >> >> >> June the vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above
> >> >> >> this wire and remove the side shoots each week.In all of this I
> >> >> >> find it necessary to do a lot of tying in to keep the vines
> >> >> >> reasonably in order.I tie an 8" piece of string (2 ply) tightly on
> >> >> >> to the wire with a reef knot,and then loosely round the vertical
> >> >> >> shoot.However,I find it difficult to tie the shoot onto the 2.5 mm
> >> >> >> wire tightly enough to prevent it slipping.Someone has suggested
> >> >> >> plastic covered thin wire for ties,but I feel that they will be
> >> >> >> even more difficult to remove in the Autumn.Could someone advise of
> >> >> >> a more secure way? Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > I am not sure whether your comment/question is to me,but I will
> > clarify.In England which is a cool climate we get very robust growth
> > from the vertical shoots arising from the two horizontal Guyot
> > arms.These shoots reach 5' (my top wire) by about end May,and I then
> > top the shoots,which then encourages lateral side shoots (as in tomato
> > growing).I take as many of these off as possible by pruning them to
> > the second leaf.I do this to stop the hedge becoming too tangled and
> > dense,so that my spraying (mainly wettable sulphur to prevent powdery
> > mildew) is efficient.Later I remove some of the lower leaves near the
> > grape bunches to aid ripening.
> > Is this a sensible procedure or am I losing Brix as someone suggested
> > Michael
>
> I think your are doing things right.
>
> doublesb, or whatever his or her real name is, advocates retaining laterals.
> In my opinion, this can lead to a canopy that is unmanageable in climates
> that promote vigorous growth. *It also promotes a "second crop" which will
> never ripen but will take energy away from clusters on primary shoots. *I
> was asking him (doublesp) for literature cites.
>
> What are your growing?
> I live in Central Maryland and also have problems with overly vigorous
> vines.
>
> Paul

While climate certainly can have something to do with how much growth
you see, a substantial factor is going to be the variety of grape that
you grow. Some varieties are much more vigorous than others and
substantial set of a second crop is likely primarily due to the
variety you are growing. Are you by chance growing Seyval Blanc? It
is known for over cropping from an extended bloom period. You are
better off dropping unwanted clusters (and shoots early in the season)
than whacking off a shoot that is providing energy to your fruit. You
can do some canopy management without cutting the energy (sugar)
supply to your clusters.

Stephen

>
> I think your are doing things right.
>
> doublesb, or whatever his or her real name is, advocates retaining laterals.
> In my opinion, this can lead to a canopy that is unmanageable in climates
> that promote vigorous growth. It also promotes a "second crop" which will
> never ripen but will take energy away from clusters on primary shoots. I
> was asking him (doublesp) for literature cites.
>
> What are your growing?
> I live in Central Maryland and also have problems with overly vigorous
> vines.
>
> Paul

wrote:

> I'm not advocating retaining laterals due to hedginging above the 5'
> wire. Cut them off. I'm advocating leaving the natural ones that the
> vine forms to help it ripen the fruit. I've NEVER see clusters on
> these. While I have read that some vines do develop clusters on these
> laterals ( natural ones) , I have never experienced them. If it is a
> phenomonon that only happens every once in a while I wouldn't sweat
> it.

I experience it in every variety that I grow so from my experience it is not
a rare phenonomon. If you do not experience bud break until May, you are
growing in a cool environment and one in which wine is not normally grown.

I have never heard of vines naturally putting forth laterals to ripen fruit.
Could you please provide a reference.

Winkler in his classic "General Viticulture" talks about the 2nd and 3rd
crops from laterals so it seems the vine is trying to procduce more seeds
for birds or whatever animal to spread the the seeds and propagate the
species as opposed to "Ripening of the fruit". Winkler's expertise was in
table grapes and table grapes do not have to have the maturity of wine
grapes to be of sale value. Nature could care less about our desire for
fruit ripe enough for quality wine. It DOES care about supplying seeds to
propagate the species.

Where are you growing your fruit? What varieties do you grow?

For what it is worth. Unless the laterals are causing congestion in the
canopy, I leave them. I do remove the clusters from the laterals that I
leave and I do remove laterals in a crowded canopy to promote air flow and
avoid shading the fruit.

I think it is all a matter of what you are growing and WHERE you are
growing. The general statement to maintain laterals in an overly vigorous
situation is, in my opinion, not good advice.


>
>
> On Jul 7, 4:09Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> michael wrote:
>> > On 7 July, 13:32, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > On Jul 3, 2:09Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > Michael,
>>
>> >> >> > I use zip ties also known as electrical ties. They work great and
>> >> >> > you can pull them very tight. I don't think anything will slip
>> >> >> > thru. I also see you prune off the side shoots. I would advise
>> >> >> > against that. They're used by the vine to ripen the fruit. Does
>> >> >> > your fruit get ripe? If you think they crowd the canopy too much
>> >> >> > a technique you could use is only allow every other bud to shoot
>> >> >> > in the spring there by spacing the canopy. Cutting the laterals
>> >> >> > off is not recommended.
>>
>> >> >> I think we may have had this converstion before.
>>
>> >> >> Electrical ties that would hold the shoot tight enough against the
>> >> >> wire also probably hold them tight enough to girdle the shoot as it
>> >> >> grows and prevent nutrients from reaching the new growth.
>>
>> >> >> I do not know where you are growing your grapes, but here in the
>> >> >> East, EVERYONE I know of, commercial growers and amateurs alike DO
>> >> >> prune off laterials especially those that cause the canopy to be
>> >> >> too dense.
>>
>> >> >> As I mentioned before in another response last year, laterals do
>> >> >> produce fruit and this fruit takes energy away from the main shoot
>> >> >> fruit. Â*It is also fruit that will never ripen fully and therefore
>> >> >> should not be used in the harvest.
>>
>> >> >> Perhaps you live in an area that is very dry and you can regulate
>> >> >> growth by the amount of drip irrigation but here in the East and I
>> >> >> assume England, vigor is a major problem.
>>
>> >> >> Shoot thinning is another method used. Â*If one has shoots from
>> >> >> secondary or tertiary buds, then these can be removed, especially
>> >> >> if they are not needed for a spur for next year.
>>
>> >> >> Paul
>>
>> >> > Michael wrote:
>>
>> >> > "I get bud burst in early May,and by end of June the
>> >> > vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above this wire
>> >> > and remove the side shoots each week."
>>
>> >> > That is why using zip ties is exactly what he should use. Use the
>> >> > zip ties on the top wire tied tight and use them loose on the lower
>> >> > ones. As far as the laterals are concerned, yes, I disagree with you
>> >> > and there are plenty of other people who do too, Ever leave the
>> >> > laterals on one vine and see if that vines brix is higher? I betcha
>> >> > it is.
>>
>> >> I am confused. Â*You say you hedge above the top wire and remove the
>> >> side shoots that result from this hedging and leave the other
>> >> laterals?
>>
>> >> I am always willing to learn. Â*Do you have a literature cites so
>> >> support your views?
>>
>> >> >> > On Jun 29, 5:34Â*am, michael > wrote:
>> >> >> >> I grow a few vines in England on the Double Guyot Method.The
>> >> >> >> vines are quite vigorous as they are on ther own roots.( I
>> >> >> >> propagated them all from cuttings).I get bud burst in early
>> >> >> >> May,and by end of June the vertical shoots are past the top wire
>> >> >> >> at 5'.I prune above this wire and remove the side shoots each
>> >> >> >> week.In all of this I find it necessary to do a lot of tying in
>> >> >> >> to keep the vines reasonably in order.I tie an 8" piece of
>> >> >> >> string (2 ply) tightly on to the wire with a reef knot,and then
>> >> >> >> loosely round the vertical shoot.However,I find it difficult to
>> >> >> >> tie the shoot onto the 2.5 mm wire tightly enough to prevent it
>> >> >> >> slipping.Someone has suggested plastic covered thin wire for
>> >> >> >> ties,but I feel that they will be even more difficult to remove
>> >> >> >> in the Autumn.Could someone advise of a more secure way?
>> >> >> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> >> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> > I am not sure whether your comment/question is to me,but I will
>> > clarify.In England which is a cool climate we get very robust growth
>> > from the vertical shoots arising from the two horizontal Guyot
>> > arms.These shoots reach 5' (my top wire) by about end May,and I then
>> > top the shoots,which then encourages lateral side shoots (as in tomato
>> > growing).I take as many of these off as possible by pruning them to
>> > the second leaf.I do this to stop the hedge becoming too tangled and
>> > dense,so that my spraying (mainly wettable sulphur to prevent powdery
>> > mildew) is efficient.Later I remove some of the lower leaves near the
>> > grape bunches to aid ripening.
>> > Is this a sensible procedure or am I losing Brix as someone suggested
>> > Michael
>>
>> I think your are doing things right.
>>
>> doublesb, or whatever his or her real name is, advocates retaining
>> laterals. In my opinion, this can lead to a canopy that is unmanageable
>> in climates that promote vigorous growth. Â*It also promotes a "second
>> crop" which will never ripen but will take energy away from clusters on
>> primary shoots. Â*I was asking him (doublesp) for literature cites.
>>
>> What are your growing?
>> I live in Central Maryland and also have problems with overly vigorous
>> vines.
>>
>> Paul

On Jul 7, 7:22 pm, wrote:
> I'm not advocating retaining laterals due to hedginging above the 5'
> wire. Cut them off. I'm advocating leaving the natural ones that the
> vine forms to help it ripen the fruit. I've NEVER see clusters on
> these. While I have read that some vines do develop clusters on these
> laterals ( natural ones) , I have never experienced them. If it is a
> phenomonon that only happens every once in a while I wouldn't sweat
> it.
>
> On Jul 7, 4:09 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
> > michael wrote:
> > > On 7 July, 13:32, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > On Jul 3, 2:09 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > >> >> wrote:
> > >> >> > Michael,
>
> > >> >> > I use zip ties also known as electrical ties. They work great and
> > >> >> > you can pull them very tight. I don't think anything will slip thru.
> > >> >> > I also see you prune off the side shoots. I would advise against
> > >> >> > that. They're used by the vine to ripen the fruit. Does your fruit
> > >> >> > get ripe? If you think they crowd the canopy too much a technique
> > >> >> > you could use is only allow every other bud to shoot in the spring
> > >> >> > there by spacing the canopy. Cutting the laterals off is not
> > >> >> > recommended.
>
> > >> >> I think we may have had this converstion before.
>
> > >> >> Electrical ties that would hold the shoot tight enough against the
> > >> >> wire also probably hold them tight enough to girdle the shoot as it
> > >> >> grows and prevent nutrients from reaching the new growth.
>
> > >> >> I do not know where you are growing your grapes, but here in the East,
> > >> >> EVERYONE I know of, commercial growers and amateurs alike DO prune off
> > >> >> laterials especially those that cause the canopy to be too dense.
>
> > >> >> As I mentioned before in another response last year, laterals do
> > >> >> produce fruit and this fruit takes energy away from the main shoot
> > >> >> fruit. It is also fruit that will never ripen fully and therefore
> > >> >> should not be used in the harvest.
>
> > >> >> Perhaps you live in an area that is very dry and you can regulate
> > >> >> growth by the amount of drip irrigation but here in the East and I
> > >> >> assume England, vigor is a major problem.
>
> > >> >> Shoot thinning is another method used. If one has shoots from
> > >> >> secondary or tertiary buds, then these can be removed, especially if
> > >> >> they are not needed for a spur for next year.
>
> > >> >> Paul
>
> > >> > Michael wrote:
>
> > >> > "I get bud burst in early May,and by end of June the
> > >> > vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above this wire
> > >> > and remove the side shoots each week."
>
> > >> > That is why using zip ties is exactly what he should use. Use the zip
> > >> > ties on the top wire tied tight and use them loose on the lower ones.
> > >> > As far as the laterals are concerned, yes, I disagree with you and
> > >> > there are plenty of other people who do too, Ever leave the laterals
> > >> > on one vine and see if that vines brix is higher? I betcha it is.
>
> > >> I am confused. You say you hedge above the top wire and remove the side
> > >> shoots that result from this hedging and leave the other laterals?
>
> > >> I am always willing to learn. Do you have a literature cites so support
> > >> your views?
>
> > >> >> > On Jun 29, 5:34 am, michael > wrote:
> > >> >> >> I grow a few vines in England on the Double Guyot Method.The vines
> > >> >> >> are quite vigorous as they are on ther own roots.( I propagated
> > >> >> >> them all from cuttings).I get bud burst in early May,and by end of
> > >> >> >> June the vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above
> > >> >> >> this wire and remove the side shoots each week.In all of this I
> > >> >> >> find it necessary to do a lot of tying in to keep the vines
> > >> >> >> reasonably in order.I tie an 8" piece of string (2 ply) tightly on
> > >> >> >> to the wire with a reef knot,and then loosely round the vertical
> > >> >> >> shoot.However,I find it difficult to tie the shoot onto the 2.5 mm
> > >> >> >> wire tightly enough to prevent it slipping.Someone has suggested
> > >> >> >> plastic covered thin wire for ties,but I feel that they will be
> > >> >> >> even more difficult to remove in the Autumn.Could someone advise of
> > >> >> >> a more secure way? Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> > >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > I am not sure whether your comment/question is to me,but I will
> > > clarify.In England which is a cool climate we get very robust growth
> > > from the vertical shoots arising from the two horizontal Guyot
> > > arms.These shoots reach 5' (my top wire) by about end May,and I then
> > > top the shoots,which then encourages lateral side shoots (as in tomato
> > > growing).I take as many of these off as possible by pruning them to
> > > the second leaf.I do this to stop the hedge becoming too tangled and
> > > dense,so that my spraying (mainly wettable sulphur to prevent powdery
> > > mildew) is efficient.Later I remove some of the lower leaves near the
> > > grape bunches to aid ripening.
> > > Is this a sensible procedure or am I losing Brix as someone suggested
> > > Michael
>
> > I think your are doing things right.
>
> > doublesb, or whatever his or her real name is, advocates retaining laterals.
> > In my opinion, this can lead to a canopy that is unmanageable in climates
> > that promote vigorous growth. It also promotes a "second crop" which will
> > never ripen but will take energy away from clusters on primary shoots. I
> > was asking him (doublesp) for literature cites.
>
> > What are your growing?
> > I live in Central Maryland and also have problems with overly vigorous
> > vines.
>
> > Paul

Here are a couple of references that contain some information about
hedging (toward the bottom of the articles). In summary: do it with
caution.

viticulture.hort.iastate.edu/info/pdf/prunecanopy.pdf
http://ohioline.osu.edu/b919/0009.html

Here's one article on this topic >
http://www.practicalwinery.com/sepoct01p5.htm

and I'm trying to find another that I have somewhere that ran an
experiment and found that more than 4 leaves on a lateral actually
started to be less effective in fruit development, my guess is probably
because of young leaves being a drain. If I find it I'll post it later.

Dick



shbailey wrote:
> While climate certainly can have something to do with how much growth
> you see, a substantial factor is going to be the variety of grape that
> you grow. Some varieties are much more vigorous than others and
> substantial set of a second crop is likely primarily due to the
> variety you are growing. Are you by chance growing Seyval Blanc? It
> is known for over cropping from an extended bloom period. You are
> better off dropping unwanted clusters (and shoots early in the season)
> than whacking off a shoot that is providing energy to your fruit. You
> can do some canopy management without cutting the energy (sugar)
> supply to your clusters.
>
> Stephen
>
>> I think your are doing things right.
>>
>> doublesb, or whatever his or her real name is, advocates retaining laterals.
>> In my opinion, this can lead to a canopy that is unmanageable in climates
>> that promote vigorous growth. It also promotes a "second crop" which will
>> never ripen but will take energy away from clusters on primary shoots. I
>> was asking him (doublesp) for literature cites.
>>
>> What are your growing?
>> I live in Central Maryland and also have problems with overly vigorous
>> vines.
>>
>> Paul
>

This isn't the one I'm looking for but I found this also:>
http://www.practicalwinery.com/SeptO...ptoct07p62.htm

Dick



Dick Heckman wrote:
> Here's one article on this topic >
> http://www.practicalwinery.com/sepoct01p5.htm
>
> and I'm trying to find another that I have somewhere that ran an
> experiment and found that more than 4 leaves on a lateral actually
> started to be less effective in fruit development, my guess is probably
> because of young leaves being a drain. If I find it I'll post it later.
>
> Dick
>
>
>

Dick Heckman wrote:

> Here's one article on this topic >
> http://www.practicalwinery.com/sepoct01p5.htm
>
> and I'm trying to find another that I have somewhere that ran an
> experiment and found that more than 4 leaves on a lateral actually
> started to be less effective in fruit development, my guess is probably
> because of young leaves being a drain. If I find it I'll post it later.
>
> Dick
>
>
>
> shbailey wrote:
>> While climate certainly can have something to do with how much growth
>> you see, a substantial factor is going to be the variety of grape that
>> you grow. Some varieties are much more vigorous than others and
>> substantial set of a second crop is likely primarily due to the
>> variety you are growing. Are you by chance growing Seyval Blanc? It
>> is known for over cropping from an extended bloom period. You are
>> better off dropping unwanted clusters (and shoots early in the season)
>> than whacking off a shoot that is providing energy to your fruit. You
>> can do some canopy management without cutting the energy (sugar)
>> supply to your clusters.
>>
>> Stephen
>>
>>> I think your are doing things right.
>>>
>>> doublesb, or whatever his or her real name is, advocates retaining
>>> laterals. In my opinion, this can lead to a canopy that is unmanageable
>>> in climates
>>> that promote vigorous growth. It also promotes a "second crop" which
>>> will
>>> never ripen but will take energy away from clusters on primary shoots.
>>> I was asking him (doublesp) for literature cites.
>>>
>>> What are your growing?
>>> I live in Central Maryland and also have problems with overly vigorous
>>> vines.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>
thank you very much for the links and information.

Paul

Good info Dick.The only thing I would add is that any article dealing
with CA or Dr. Smart down under are not applicable out side of CA and
South Eastern Australia. If you grow grapes there you don't have to
worry about winters. The first article was more in line with what most
growers need to do that grow grapes in a less than ideal climate.

On Jul 10, 9:42*pm, Dick Heckman > wrote:
> This isn't the one I'm looking for but I found this also:>http://www.practicalwinery.com/SeptO...ptoct07p62.htm
>
> Dick
>
> Dick Heckman wrote:
> > Here's one article on this topic >
> >http://www.practicalwinery.com/sepoct01p5.htm
>
> > and I'm trying to find another that I have somewhere that ran an
> > experiment and found that more than 4 leaves on a lateral actually
> > started to be less effective in fruit development, my guess is probably
> > because of young leaves being a drain. *If I find it I'll post it later.
>
> > Dick

On 8 July, 03:20, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> wrote:
> > I'm not advocating retaining laterals due to hedginging above the 5'
> > wire. Cut them off. I'm advocating leaving the natural ones that the
> > vine forms to help it ripen the fruit. I've *NEVER see clusters on
> > these. While I have read that some vines do develop clusters on these
> > laterals ( natural ones) , I have never experienced them. If it is a
> > phenomonon that only happens every once in a while I wouldn't sweat
> > it.
>
> I experience it in every variety that I grow so from my experience it is not
> a rare phenonomon. If you do not experience bud break until May, you are
> growing in a cool environment and one in which wine is not normally grown..
>
> I have never heard of vines naturally putting forth laterals to ripen fruit.
> Could you please provide a reference.
>
> Winkler in his classic "General Viticulture" talks about the 2nd and 3rd
> crops from laterals so it seems the vine is trying to procduce more seeds
> for birds or whatever animal to spread the the seeds and propagate the
> species as opposed to "Ripening of the fruit". *Winkler's expertise was in
> table grapes and table grapes do not have to have the maturity of wine
> grapes to be of sale value. *Nature could care less about our desire for
> fruit ripe enough for quality wine. *It DOES care about supplying seeds to
> propagate the species.
>
> Where are you growing your fruit? *What varieties do you grow?
>
> For what it is worth. *Unless the laterals are causing congestion in the
> canopy, I leave them. *I do remove the clusters from the laterals that I
> leave and I do remove laterals in a crowded canopy to promote air flow and
> avoid shading the fruit.
>
> I think it is all a matter of what you are growing and WHERE you are
> growing. *The general statement to maintain laterals in an overly vigorous
> situation is, in my opinion, not good advice.
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 7, 4:09*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> >> michael wrote:
> >> > On 7 July, 13:32, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > On Jul 3, 2:09*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> > Michael,
>
> >> >> >> > I use zip ties also known as electrical ties. They work great and
> >> >> >> > you can pull them very tight. I don't think anything will slip
> >> >> >> > thru. I also see you prune off the side shoots. I would advise
> >> >> >> > against that. They're used by the vine to ripen the fruit. Does
> >> >> >> > your fruit get ripe? If you think they crowd the canopy too much
> >> >> >> > a technique you could use is only allow every other bud to shoot
> >> >> >> > in the spring there by spacing the canopy. Cutting the laterals
> >> >> >> > off is not recommended.
>
> >> >> >> I think we may have had this converstion before.
>
> >> >> >> Electrical ties that would hold the shoot tight enough against the
> >> >> >> wire also probably hold them tight enough to girdle the shoot as it
> >> >> >> grows and prevent nutrients from reaching the new growth.
>
> >> >> >> I do not know where you are growing your grapes, but here in the
> >> >> >> East, EVERYONE I know of, commercial growers and amateurs alike DO
> >> >> >> prune off laterials especially those that cause the canopy to be
> >> >> >> too dense.
>
> >> >> >> As I mentioned before in another response last year, laterals do
> >> >> >> produce fruit and this fruit takes energy away from the main shoot
> >> >> >> fruit. *It is also fruit that will never ripen fully and therefore
> >> >> >> should not be used in the harvest.
>
> >> >> >> Perhaps you live in an area that is very dry and you can regulate
> >> >> >> growth by the amount of drip irrigation but here in the East and I
> >> >> >> assume England, vigor is a major problem.
>
> >> >> >> Shoot thinning is another method used. *If one has shoots from
> >> >> >> secondary or tertiary buds, then these can be removed, especially
> >> >> >> if they are not needed for a spur for next year.
>
> >> >> >> Paul
>
> >> >> > Michael wrote:
>
> >> >> > "I get bud burst in early May,and by end of June the
> >> >> > vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above this wire
> >> >> > and remove the side shoots each week."
>
> >> >> > That is why using zip ties is exactly what he should use. Use the
> >> >> > zip ties on the top wire tied tight and use them loose on the lower
> >> >> > ones. As far as the laterals are concerned, yes, I disagree with you
> >> >> > and there are plenty of other people who do too, Ever leave the
> >> >> > laterals on one vine and see if that vines brix is higher? I betcha
> >> >> > it is.
>
> >> >> I am confused. *You say you hedge above the top wire and remove the
> >> >> side shoots that result from this hedging and leave the other
> >> >> laterals?
>
> >> >> I am always willing to learn. *Do you have a literature cites so
> >> >> support your views?
>
> >> >> >> > On Jun 29, 5:34*am, michael > wrote:
> >> >> >> >> I grow a few vines in England on the Double Guyot Method.The
> >> >> >> >> vines are quite vigorous as they are on ther own roots.( I
> >> >> >> >> propagated them all from cuttings).I get bud burst in early
> >> >> >> >> May,and by end of June the vertical shoots are past the top wire
> >> >> >> >> at 5'.I prune above this wire and remove the side shoots each
> >> >> >> >> week.In all of this I find it necessary to do a lot of tying in
> >> >> >> >> to keep the vines reasonably in order.I tie an 8" piece of
> >> >> >> >> string (2 ply) tightly on to the wire with a reef knot,and then
> >> >> >> >> loosely round the vertical shoot.However,I find it difficult to
> >> >> >> >> tie the shoot onto the 2.5 mm wire tightly enough to prevent it
> >> >> >> >> slipping.Someone has suggested plastic covered thin wire for
> >> >> >> >> ties,but I feel that they will be even more difficult to remove
> >> >> >> >> in the Autumn.Could someone advise of a more secure way?
> >> >> >> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> >> > I am not sure whether your comment/question is to me,but I will
> >> > clarify.In England which is a cool climate we get very robust growth
> >> > from the vertical shoots arising from the two horizontal Guyot
> >> > arms.These shoots reach 5' (my top wire) by about end May,and I then
> >> > top the shoots,which then encourages lateral side shoots (as in tomato
> >> > growing).I take as many of these off as possible by pruning them to
> >> > the second leaf.I do this to stop the hedge becoming too tangled and
> >> > dense,so that my spraying (mainly wettable sulphur to prevent powdery
> >> > mildew) is efficient.Later I remove some of the lower leaves near the
> >> > grape bunches to aid ripening.
> >> > Is this a sensible procedure or am I losing Brix as someone suggested
> >> > Michael
>
> >> I think your are doing things right.
>
> >> doublesb, or whatever his or her real name is, advocates retaining
> >> laterals. In my opinion, this can lead to a canopy that is unmanageable
> >> in climates that promote vigorous growth. *It also promotes a "second
> >> crop" which will never ripen but will take energy away from clusters on
> >> primary shoots. *I was asking him (doublesp) for literature cites.
>
> >> What are your growing?
> >> I live in Central Maryland and also have problems with overly vigorous
> >> vines.
>
> >> Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi Paul,
Thanks for your support.Englands viticulture has only
developed over the last few years,and several growers have won top
prizes for white wine and particularly sparkling wine,comparable with
good champagne.Certainly climate change is helping to ripen the fruit
well,but typical ripeness for England is in the 17-19 Brix range.These
wines seem to keep a fruity character due to lack of excessive heat-
our summer temperatures tend to be between 20-30C,and very
occasionally up to 35C.
I only grow vines to produce wine for my own consumption
(I also make hard cider).My vines are situated near Hereford on a
south facing limestone soil site.It tends to dry out quickly,and I
sometimes have problems with powdery mildew.A very successful vineyard
(Three Choirs) is about 8 miles away,so I suspect my climate is good
for the vines I grow.I have researched the varieties that are
successful in Northen Europe,and have chosen:
Whites- Schonburger,Bacchus
Reds -Regent,Rondo

The reds are fairly recent German hybrids and are producing some
excellent wines.
The vigour and tendency to produce sideshoots does vary,but if I do
not remove the laterals through the summer,I would end up with an
impossible tangle.
Regards,Michael

Michael,

How about doing a little experiment? Leave the laterals on one vine
and see if it makes any difference. With brix readings of 17 you have
nothing to lose. Don't sweat a little tangle. The vines can handle it.


On Jul 13, 9:48*am, michael > wrote:
> On 8 July, 03:20, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > > I'm not advocating retaining laterals due to hedginging above the 5'
> > > wire. Cut them off. I'm advocating leaving the natural ones that the
> > > vine forms to help it ripen the fruit. I've *NEVER see clusters on
> > > these. While I have read that some vines do develop clusters on these
> > > laterals ( natural ones) , I have never experienced them. If it is a
> > > phenomonon that only happens every once in a while I wouldn't sweat
> > > it.
>
> > I experience it in every variety that I grow so from my experience it is not
> > a rare phenonomon. If you do not experience bud break until May, you are
> > growing in a cool environment and one in which wine is not normally grown.
>
> > I have never heard of vines naturally putting forth laterals to ripen fruit.
> > Could you please provide a reference.
>
> > Winkler in his classic "General Viticulture" talks about the 2nd and 3rd
> > crops from laterals so it seems the vine is trying to procduce more seeds
> > for birds or whatever animal to spread the the seeds and propagate the
> > species as opposed to "Ripening of the fruit". *Winkler's expertise was in
> > table grapes and table grapes do not have to have the maturity of wine
> > grapes to be of sale value. *Nature could care less about our desire for
> > fruit ripe enough for quality wine. *It DOES care about supplying seeds to
> > propagate the species.
>
> > Where are you growing your fruit? *What varieties do you grow?
>
> > For what it is worth. *Unless the laterals are causing congestion in the
> > canopy, I leave them. *I do remove the clusters from the laterals that I
> > leave and I do remove laterals in a crowded canopy to promote air flow and
> > avoid shading the fruit.
>
> > I think it is all a matter of what you are growing and WHERE you are
> > growing. *The general statement to maintain laterals in an overly vigorous
> > situation is, in my opinion, not good advice.
>
> > > On Jul 7, 4:09*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > >> michael wrote:
> > >> > On 7 July, 13:32, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > >> >> wrote:
> > >> >> > On Jul 3, 2:09*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > >> >> > wrote:
> > >> >> >> wrote:
> > >> >> >> > Michael,
>
> > >> >> >> > I use zip ties also known as electrical ties. They work great and
> > >> >> >> > you can pull them very tight. I don't think anything will slip
> > >> >> >> > thru. I also see you prune off the side shoots. I would advise
> > >> >> >> > against that. They're used by the vine to ripen the fruit. Does
> > >> >> >> > your fruit get ripe? If you think they crowd the canopy too much
> > >> >> >> > a technique you could use is only allow every other bud to shoot
> > >> >> >> > in the spring there by spacing the canopy. Cutting the laterals
> > >> >> >> > off is not recommended.
>
> > >> >> >> I think we may have had this converstion before.
>
> > >> >> >> Electrical ties that would hold the shoot tight enough against the
> > >> >> >> wire also probably hold them tight enough to girdle the shoot as it
> > >> >> >> grows and prevent nutrients from reaching the new growth.
>
> > >> >> >> I do not know where you are growing your grapes, but here in the
> > >> >> >> East, EVERYONE I know of, commercial growers and amateurs alike DO
> > >> >> >> prune off laterials especially those that cause the canopy to be
> > >> >> >> too dense.
>
> > >> >> >> As I mentioned before in another response last year, laterals do
> > >> >> >> produce fruit and this fruit takes energy away from the main shoot
> > >> >> >> fruit. *It is also fruit that will never ripen fully and therefore
> > >> >> >> should not be used in the harvest.
>
> > >> >> >> Perhaps you live in an area that is very dry and you can regulate
> > >> >> >> growth by the amount of drip irrigation but here in the East and I
> > >> >> >> assume England, vigor is a major problem.
>
> > >> >> >> Shoot thinning is another method used. *If one has shoots from
> > >> >> >> secondary or tertiary buds, then these can be removed, especially
> > >> >> >> if they are not needed for a spur for next year.
>
> > >> >> >> Paul
>
> > >> >> > Michael wrote:
>
> > >> >> > "I get bud burst in early May,and by end of June the
> > >> >> > vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above this wire
> > >> >> > and remove the side shoots each week."
>
> > >> >> > That is why using zip ties is exactly what he should use. Use the
> > >> >> > zip ties on the top wire tied tight and use them loose on the lower
> > >> >> > ones. As far as the laterals are concerned, yes, I disagree with you
> > >> >> > and there are plenty of other people who do too, Ever leave the
> > >> >> > laterals on one vine and see if that vines brix is higher? I betcha
> > >> >> > it is.
>
> > >> >> I am confused. *You say you hedge above the top wire and remove the
> > >> >> side shoots that result from this hedging and leave the other
> > >> >> laterals?
>
> > >> >> I am always willing to learn. *Do you have a literature cites so
> > >> >> support your views?
>
> > >> >> >> > On Jun 29, 5:34*am, michael > wrote:
> > >> >> >> >> I grow a few vines in England on the Double Guyot Method.The
> > >> >> >> >> vines are quite vigorous as they are on ther own roots.( I
> > >> >> >> >> propagated them all from cuttings).I get bud burst in early
> > >> >> >> >> May,and by end of June the vertical shoots are past the top wire
> > >> >> >> >> at 5'.I prune above this wire and remove the side shoots each
> > >> >> >> >> week.In all of this I find it necessary to do a lot of tying in
> > >> >> >> >> to keep the vines reasonably in order.I tie an 8" piece of
> > >> >> >> >> string (2 ply) tightly on to the wire with a reef knot,and then
> > >> >> >> >> loosely round the vertical shoot.However,I find it difficult to
> > >> >> >> >> tie the shoot onto the 2.5 mm wire tightly enough to prevent it
> > >> >> >> >> slipping.Someone has suggested plastic covered thin wire for
> > >> >> >> >> ties,but I feel that they will be even more difficult to remove
> > >> >> >> >> in the Autumn.Could someone advise of a more secure way?
> > >> >> >> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> > >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > >> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > >> > I am not sure whether your comment/question is to me,but I will
> > >> > clarify.In England which is a cool climate we get very robust growth
> > >> > from the vertical shoots arising from the two horizontal Guyot
> > >> > arms.These shoots reach 5' (my top wire) by about end May,and I then
> > >> > top the shoots,which then encourages lateral side shoots (as in tomato
> > >> > growing).I take as many of these off as possible by pruning them to
> > >> > the second leaf.I do this to stop the hedge becoming too tangled and
> > >> > dense,so that my spraying (mainly wettable sulphur to prevent powdery
> > >> > mildew) is efficient.Later I remove some of the lower leaves near the
> > >> > grape bunches to aid ripening.
> > >> > Is this a sensible procedure or am I losing Brix as someone suggested
> > >> > Michael
>
> > >> I think your are doing things right.
>
> > >> doublesb, or whatever his or her real name is, advocates retaining
> > >> laterals. In my opinion, this can lead to a canopy that is unmanageable
> > >> in climates that promote vigorous growth. *It also promotes a "second
> > >> crop" which will never ripen but will take energy away from clusters on
> > >> primary shoots. *I was asking him (doublesp) for literature cites.
>
> > >> What are your growing?
> > >> I live in Central Maryland and also have problems with overly vigorous
> > >> vines.
>
> > >> Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Hi Paul,
> * * * * * * Thanks for your support.Englands viticulture has only
> developed over the last few years,and several growers have won top
> prizes for white wine and particularly sparkling wine,comparable with
> good champagne.Certainly climate change is helping to ripen the fruit
> well,but typical ripeness for England is in the 17-19 Brix range.These
> wines seem to keep a fruity character due to lack of excessive heat-
> our summer temperatures tend to be between 20-30C,and very
> occasionally up to 35C.
> * * * * * * I only grow vines to produce wine for my own consumption
> (I also make hard cider).My vines are situated near Hereford on a
> south facing limestone soil site.It tends to dry out quickly,and I
> sometimes have problems with powdery mildew.A very successful vineyard
> (Three Choirs) is about 8 miles away,so I suspect my climate is good
> for the vines I grow.I have researched the varieties that are
> successful in Northen Europe,and have chosen:
> Whites- Schonburger,Bacchus
> Reds -Regent,Rondo
>
> The reds are fairly recent German hybrids and are producing some
> excellent wines.
> The vigour and tendency to produce sideshoots does vary,but if I do
> not remove the laterals through the summer,I would end up with an
> impossible tangle.
> Regards,Michael

Here's another article that is about disease prevention and discusses
leaf thinning. The experiments were done at Cornell and Washington
State. I seem to have lost the article I first was looking for.

> http://www.allbusiness.com/medicine-...2353411-1.html

Dick



Paul E. Lehmann wrote:
> Dick Heckman wrote:
>
>> Here's one article on this topic >
>> http://www.practicalwinery.com/sepoct01p5.htm
>>
>> and I'm trying to find another that I have somewhere that ran an
>> experiment and found that more than 4 leaves on a lateral actually
>> started to be less effective in fruit development, my guess is probably
>> because of young leaves being a drain. If I find it I'll post it later.
>>
>> Dick
>>
>>
>>
>> shbailey wrote:
>>> While climate certainly can have something to do with how much growth
>>> you see, a substantial factor is going to be the variety of grape that
>>> you grow. Some varieties are much more vigorous than others and
>>> substantial set of a second crop is likely primarily due to the
>>> variety you are growing. Are you by chance growing Seyval Blanc? It
>>> is known for over cropping from an extended bloom period. You are
>>> better off dropping unwanted clusters (and shoots early in the season)
>>> than whacking off a shoot that is providing energy to your fruit. You
>>> can do some canopy management without cutting the energy (sugar)
>>> supply to your clusters.
>>>
>>> Stephen
>>>
>>>> I think your are doing things right.
>>>>
>>>> doublesb, or whatever his or her real name is, advocates retaining
>>>> laterals. In my opinion, this can lead to a canopy that is unmanageable
>>>> in climates
>>>> that promote vigorous growth. It also promotes a "second crop" which
>>>> will
>>>> never ripen but will take energy away from clusters on primary shoots.
>>>> I was asking him (doublesp) for literature cites.
>>>>
>>>> What are your growing?
>>>> I live in Central Maryland and also have problems with overly vigorous
>>>> vines.
>>>>
>>>> Paul
> thank you very much for the links and information.
>
> Paul

On 14 July, 03:38, wrote:
> Michael,
>
> How about doing a little experiment? Leave the laterals on one vine
> and see if it makes any difference. *With brix readings of 17 you have
> nothing to lose. Don't sweat a little tangle. The vines can handle it.
>
> On Jul 13, 9:48*am, michael > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 8 July, 03:20, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
> > > wrote:
> > > > I'm not advocating retaining laterals due to hedginging above the 5'
> > > > wire. Cut them off. I'm advocating leaving the natural ones that the
> > > > vine forms to help it ripen the fruit. I've *NEVER see clusters on
> > > > these. While I have read that some vines do develop clusters on these
> > > > laterals ( natural ones) , I have never experienced them. If it is a
> > > > phenomonon that only happens every once in a while I wouldn't sweat
> > > > it.
>
> > > I experience it in every variety that I grow so from my experience it is not
> > > a rare phenonomon. If you do not experience bud break until May, you are
> > > growing in a cool environment and one in which wine is not normally grown.
>
> > > I have never heard of vines naturally putting forth laterals to ripen fruit.
> > > Could you please provide a reference.
>
> > > Winkler in his classic "General Viticulture" talks about the 2nd and 3rd
> > > crops from laterals so it seems the vine is trying to procduce more seeds
> > > for birds or whatever animal to spread the the seeds and propagate the
> > > species as opposed to "Ripening of the fruit". *Winkler's expertise was in
> > > table grapes and table grapes do not have to have the maturity of wine
> > > grapes to be of sale value. *Nature could care less about our desire for
> > > fruit ripe enough for quality wine. *It DOES care about supplying seeds to
> > > propagate the species.
>
> > > Where are you growing your fruit? *What varieties do you grow?
>
> > > For what it is worth. *Unless the laterals are causing congestion in the
> > > canopy, I leave them. *I do remove the clusters from the laterals that I
> > > leave and I do remove laterals in a crowded canopy to promote air flow and
> > > avoid shading the fruit.
>
> > > I think it is all a matter of what you are growing and WHERE you are
> > > growing. *The general statement to maintain laterals in an overly vigorous
> > > situation is, in my opinion, not good advice.
>
> > > > On Jul 7, 4:09*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > > >> michael wrote:
> > > >> > On 7 July, 13:32, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > > >> >> wrote:
> > > >> >> > On Jul 3, 2:09*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > > >> >> > wrote:
> > > >> >> >> wrote:
> > > >> >> >> > Michael,
>
> > > >> >> >> > I use zip ties also known as electrical ties. They work great and
> > > >> >> >> > you can pull them very tight. I don't think anything will slip
> > > >> >> >> > thru. I also see you prune off the side shoots. I would advise
> > > >> >> >> > against that. They're used by the vine to ripen the fruit. Does
> > > >> >> >> > your fruit get ripe? If you think they crowd the canopy too much
> > > >> >> >> > a technique you could use is only allow every other bud to shoot
> > > >> >> >> > in the spring there by spacing the canopy. Cutting the laterals
> > > >> >> >> > off is not recommended.
>
> > > >> >> >> I think we may have had this converstion before.
>
> > > >> >> >> Electrical ties that would hold the shoot tight enough against the
> > > >> >> >> wire also probably hold them tight enough to girdle the shoot as it
> > > >> >> >> grows and prevent nutrients from reaching the new growth.
>
> > > >> >> >> I do not know where you are growing your grapes, but here in the
> > > >> >> >> East, EVERYONE I know of, commercial growers and amateurs alike DO
> > > >> >> >> prune off laterials especially those that cause the canopy to be
> > > >> >> >> too dense.
>
> > > >> >> >> As I mentioned before in another response last year, laterals do
> > > >> >> >> produce fruit and this fruit takes energy away from the main shoot
> > > >> >> >> fruit. *It is also fruit that will never ripen fully and therefore
> > > >> >> >> should not be used in the harvest.
>
> > > >> >> >> Perhaps you live in an area that is very dry and you can regulate
> > > >> >> >> growth by the amount of drip irrigation but here in the East and I
> > > >> >> >> assume England, vigor is a major problem.
>
> > > >> >> >> Shoot thinning is another method used. *If one has shoots from
> > > >> >> >> secondary or tertiary buds, then these can be removed, especially
> > > >> >> >> if they are not needed for a spur for next year.
>
> > > >> >> >> Paul
>
> > > >> >> > Michael wrote:
>
> > > >> >> > "I get bud burst in early May,and by end of June the
> > > >> >> > vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above this wire
> > > >> >> > and remove the side shoots each week."
>
> > > >> >> > That is why using zip ties is exactly what he should use. Use the
> > > >> >> > zip ties on the top wire tied tight and use them loose on the lower
> > > >> >> > ones. As far as the laterals are concerned, yes, I disagree with you
> > > >> >> > and there are plenty of other people who do too, Ever leave the
> > > >> >> > laterals on one vine and see if that vines brix is higher? I betcha
> > > >> >> > it is.
>
> > > >> >> I am confused. *You say you hedge above the top wire and remove the
> > > >> >> side shoots that result from this hedging and leave the other
> > > >> >> laterals?
>
> > > >> >> I am always willing to learn. *Do you have a literature cites so
> > > >> >> support your views?
>
> > > >> >> >> > On Jun 29, 5:34*am, michael > wrote:
> > > >> >> >> >> I grow a few vines in England on the Double Guyot Method.The
> > > >> >> >> >> vines are quite vigorous as they are on ther own roots.( I
> > > >> >> >> >> propagated them all from cuttings).I get bud burst in early
> > > >> >> >> >> May,and by end of June the vertical shoots are past the top wire
> > > >> >> >> >> at 5'.I prune above this wire and remove the side shoots each
> > > >> >> >> >> week.In all of this I find it necessary to do a lot of tying in
> > > >> >> >> >> to keep the vines reasonably in order.I tie an 8" piece of
> > > >> >> >> >> string (2 ply) tightly on to the wire with a reef knot,and then
> > > >> >> >> >> loosely round the vertical shoot.However,I find it difficult to
> > > >> >> >> >> tie the shoot onto the 2.5 mm wire tightly enough to prevent it
> > > >> >> >> >> slipping.Someone has suggested plastic covered thin wire for
> > > >> >> >> >> ties,but I feel that they will be even more difficult to remove
> > > >> >> >> >> in the Autumn.Could someone advise of a more secure way?
> > > >> >> >> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > >> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > >> > I am not sure whether your comment/question is to me,but I will
> > > >> > clarify.In England which is a cool climate we get very robust growth
> > > >> > from the vertical shoots arising from the two horizontal Guyot
> > > >> > arms.These shoots reach 5' (my top wire) by about end May,and I then
> > > >> > top the shoots,which then encourages lateral side shoots (as in tomato
> > > >> > growing).I take as many of these off as possible by pruning them to
> > > >> > the second leaf.I do this to stop the hedge becoming too tangled and
> > > >> > dense,so that my spraying (mainly wettable sulphur to prevent powdery
> > > >> > mildew) is efficient.Later I remove some of the lower leaves near the
> > > >> > grape bunches to aid ripening.
> > > >> > Is this a sensible procedure or am I losing Brix as someone suggested
> > > >> > Michael
>
> > > >> I think your are doing things right.
>
> > > >> doublesb, or whatever his or her real name is, advocates retaining
> > > >> laterals. In my opinion, this can lead to a canopy that is unmanageable
> > > >> in climates that promote vigorous growth. *It also promotes a "second
> > > >> crop" which will never ripen but will take energy away from clusters on
> > > >> primary shoots. *I was asking him (doublesp) for literature cites.
>
> > > >> What are your growing?
> > > >> I live in Central Maryland and also have problems with overly vigorous
> > > >> vines.
>
> > > >> Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Hi Paul,
> > * * * * * * Thanks for your support.Englands viticulture has only
> > developed over the last few years,and several growers have won top
> > prizes for white wine and particularly sparkling wine,comparable with
> > good champagne.Certainly climate change is helping to ripen the fruit
> > well,but typical ripeness for England is in the 17-19 Brix range.These
> > wines seem to keep a fruity character due to lack of excessive heat-
> > our summer temperatures tend to be between 20-30C,and very
> > occasionally up to 35C.
> > * * * * * * I only grow vines to produce wine for my own consumption
> > (I also make hard cider).My vines are situated near Hereford on a
> > south facing limestone soil site.It tends to dry out quickly,and I
> > sometimes have problems with powdery mildew.A very successful vineyard
> > (Three Choirs) is about 8 miles away,so I suspect my climate is good
> > for the vines I grow.I have researched the varieties that are
> > successful in Northen Europe,and have chosen:
> > Whites- Schonburger,Bacchus
> > Reds -Regent,Rondo
>
> > The reds are fairly recent German hybrids and are producing some
> > excellent wines.
> > The vigour and tendency to produce sideshoots does vary,but if I do
> > not remove the laterals through the summer,I would end up with an
> > impossible tangle.
> > Regards,Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Good idea,Paul.I may just try leaving one vine (a less vigorous one)
with the laterals on from now,and see if the Brix increases.Another
minor point-I used to take out the sideshoots as in tomato growing
i.e.completely ,but now prune off at the second leaf.This was
recommended somewhere,and I thought that the left on leaves would help
to ripen the buds ,certainly in the case of the three shoots(two
horizontal and one to produce shoots for the following year) kept back
after winter pruning.
Regards,michael

Micheal,

You can make the vine more virouous by mulching with wood chips. A
healthy vine will produce grapes higher in brix. I noticed you wrote
"My vines are situated near Hereford on a south facing limestone soil
site.It tends to dry out quickly,and I
sometimes have problems with powdery mildew." If your soil dries out
quickly mulch them. They will be healthier for it. The healthier the
vine the better the grapes.

On Jul 14, 12:49*pm, michael > wrote:
> On 14 July, 03:38, wrote:
>
>
>
> > Michael,
>
> > How about doing a little experiment? Leave the laterals on one vine
> > and see if it makes any difference. *With brix readings of 17 you have
> > nothing to lose. Don't sweat a little tangle. The vines can handle it.
>
> > On Jul 13, 9:48*am, michael > wrote:
>
> > > On 8 July, 03:20, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > I'm not advocating retaining laterals due to hedginging above the 5'
> > > > > wire. Cut them off. I'm advocating leaving the natural ones that the
> > > > > vine forms to help it ripen the fruit. I've *NEVER see clusters on
> > > > > these. While I have read that some vines do develop clusters on these
> > > > > laterals ( natural ones) , I have never experienced them. If it is a
> > > > > phenomonon that only happens every once in a while I wouldn't sweat
> > > > > it.
>
> > > > I experience it in every variety that I grow so from my experience it is not
> > > > a rare phenonomon. If you do not experience bud break until May, you are
> > > > growing in a cool environment and one in which wine is not normally grown.
>
> > > > I have never heard of vines naturally putting forth laterals to ripen fruit.
> > > > Could you please provide a reference.
>
> > > > Winkler in his classic "General Viticulture" talks about the 2nd and 3rd
> > > > crops from laterals so it seems the vine is trying to procduce more seeds
> > > > for birds or whatever animal to spread the the seeds and propagate the
> > > > species as opposed to "Ripening of the fruit". *Winkler's expertise was in
> > > > table grapes and table grapes do not have to have the maturity of wine
> > > > grapes to be of sale value. *Nature could care less about our desire for
> > > > fruit ripe enough for quality wine. *It DOES care about supplying seeds to
> > > > propagate the species.
>
> > > > Where are you growing your fruit? *What varieties do you grow?
>
> > > > For what it is worth. *Unless the laterals are causing congestion in the
> > > > canopy, I leave them. *I do remove the clusters from the laterals that I
> > > > leave and I do remove laterals in a crowded canopy to promote air flow and
> > > > avoid shading the fruit.
>
> > > > I think it is all a matter of what you are growing and WHERE you are
> > > > growing. *The general statement to maintain laterals in an overly vigorous
> > > > situation is, in my opinion, not good advice.
>
> > > > > On Jul 7, 4:09*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > > > >> michael wrote:
> > > > >> > On 7 July, 13:32, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > > > >> >> wrote:
> > > > >> >> > On Jul 3, 2:09*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > > > >> >> > wrote:
> > > > >> >> >> wrote:
> > > > >> >> >> > Michael,
>
> > > > >> >> >> > I use zip ties also known as electrical ties. They work great and
> > > > >> >> >> > you can pull them very tight. I don't think anything will slip
> > > > >> >> >> > thru. I also see you prune off the side shoots. I would advise
> > > > >> >> >> > against that. They're used by the vine to ripen the fruit. Does
> > > > >> >> >> > your fruit get ripe? If you think they crowd the canopy too much
> > > > >> >> >> > a technique you could use is only allow every other bud to shoot
> > > > >> >> >> > in the spring there by spacing the canopy. Cutting the laterals
> > > > >> >> >> > off is not recommended.
>
> > > > >> >> >> I think we may have had this converstion before.
>
> > > > >> >> >> Electrical ties that would hold the shoot tight enough against the
> > > > >> >> >> wire also probably hold them tight enough to girdle the shoot as it
> > > > >> >> >> grows and prevent nutrients from reaching the new growth.
>
> > > > >> >> >> I do not know where you are growing your grapes, but here in the
> > > > >> >> >> East, EVERYONE I know of, commercial growers and amateurs alike DO
> > > > >> >> >> prune off laterials especially those that cause the canopy to be
> > > > >> >> >> too dense.
>
> > > > >> >> >> As I mentioned before in another response last year, laterals do
> > > > >> >> >> produce fruit and this fruit takes energy away from the main shoot
> > > > >> >> >> fruit. *It is also fruit that will never ripen fully and therefore
> > > > >> >> >> should not be used in the harvest.
>
> > > > >> >> >> Perhaps you live in an area that is very dry and you can regulate
> > > > >> >> >> growth by the amount of drip irrigation but here in the East and I
> > > > >> >> >> assume England, vigor is a major problem.
>
> > > > >> >> >> Shoot thinning is another method used. *If one has shoots from
> > > > >> >> >> secondary or tertiary buds, then these can be removed, especially
> > > > >> >> >> if they are not needed for a spur for next year.
>
> > > > >> >> >> Paul
>
> > > > >> >> > Michael wrote:
>
> > > > >> >> > "I get bud burst in early May,and by end of June the
> > > > >> >> > vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above this wire
> > > > >> >> > and remove the side shoots each week."
>
> > > > >> >> > That is why using zip ties is exactly what he should use. Use the
> > > > >> >> > zip ties on the top wire tied tight and use them loose on the lower
> > > > >> >> > ones. As far as the laterals are concerned, yes, I disagree with you
> > > > >> >> > and there are plenty of other people who do too, Ever leave the
> > > > >> >> > laterals on one vine and see if that vines brix is higher? I betcha
> > > > >> >> > it is.
>
> > > > >> >> I am confused. *You say you hedge above the top wire and remove the
> > > > >> >> side shoots that result from this hedging and leave the other
> > > > >> >> laterals?
>
> > > > >> >> I am always willing to learn. *Do you have a literature cites so
> > > > >> >> support your views?
>
> > > > >> >> >> > On Jun 29, 5:34*am, michael > wrote:
> > > > >> >> >> >> I grow a few vines in England on the Double Guyot Method.The
> > > > >> >> >> >> vines are quite vigorous as they are on ther own roots.( I
> > > > >> >> >> >> propagated them all from cuttings).I get bud burst in early
> > > > >> >> >> >> May,and by end of June the vertical shoots are past the top wire
> > > > >> >> >> >> at 5'.I prune above this wire and remove the side shoots each
> > > > >> >> >> >> week.In all of this I find it necessary to do a lot of tying in
> > > > >> >> >> >> to keep the vines reasonably in order.I tie an 8" piece of
> > > > >> >> >> >> string (2 ply) tightly on to the wire with a reef knot,and then
> > > > >> >> >> >> loosely round the vertical shoot.However,I find it difficult to
> > > > >> >> >> >> tie the shoot onto the 2.5 mm wire tightly enough to prevent it
> > > > >> >> >> >> slipping.Someone has suggested plastic covered thin wire for
> > > > >> >> >> >> ties,but I feel that they will be even more difficult to remove
> > > > >> >> >> >> in the Autumn.Could someone advise of a more secure way?
> > > > >> >> >> >> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > >> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > >> > I am not sure whether your comment/question is to me,but I will
> > > > >> > clarify.In England which is a cool climate we get very robust growth
> > > > >> > from the vertical shoots arising from the two horizontal Guyot
> > > > >> > arms.These shoots reach 5' (my top wire) by about end May,and I then
> > > > >> > top the shoots,which then encourages lateral side shoots (as in tomato
> > > > >> > growing).I take as many of these off as possible by pruning them to
> > > > >> > the second leaf.I do this to stop the hedge becoming too tangled and
> > > > >> > dense,so that my spraying (mainly wettable sulphur to prevent powdery
> > > > >> > mildew) is efficient.Later I remove some of the lower leaves near the
> > > > >> > grape bunches to aid ripening.
> > > > >> > Is this a sensible procedure or am I losing Brix as someone suggested
> > > > >> > Michael
>
> > > > >> I think your are doing things right.
>
> > > > >> doublesb, or whatever his or her real name is, advocates retaining
> > > > >> laterals. In my opinion, this can lead to a canopy that is unmanageable
> > > > >> in climates that promote vigorous growth. *It also promotes a "second
> > > > >> crop" which will never ripen but will take energy away from clusters on
> > > > >> primary shoots. *I was asking him (doublesp) for literature cites.
>
> > > > >> What are your growing?
> > > > >> I live in Central Maryland and also have problems with overly vigorous
> > > > >> vines.
>
> > > > >> Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Hi Paul,
> > > * * * * * * Thanks for your support.Englands viticulture has only
> > > developed over the last few years,and several growers have won top
> > > prizes for white wine and particularly sparkling wine,comparable with
> > > good champagne.Certainly climate change is helping to ripen the fruit
> > > well,but typical ripeness for England is in the 17-19 Brix range.These
> > > wines seem to keep a fruity character due to lack of excessive heat-
> > > our summer temperatures tend to be between 20-30C,and very
> > > occasionally up to 35C.
> > > * * * * * * I only grow vines to produce wine for my own consumption
> > > (I also make hard cider).My vines are situated near Hereford on a
> > > south facing limestone soil site.It tends to dry out quickly,and I
> > > sometimes have problems with powdery mildew.A very successful vineyard
> > > (Three Choirs) is about 8 miles away,so I suspect my climate is good
> > > for the vines I grow.I have researched the varieties that are
> > > successful in Northen Europe,and have chosen:
> > > Whites- Schonburger,Bacchus
> > > Reds -Regent,Rondo
>
> > > The reds are fairly recent German hybrids and are producing some
> > > excellent wines.
> > > The vigour and tendency to produce sideshoots does vary,but if I do
> > > not remove the laterals through the summer,I would end up with an
> > > impossible tangle.
> > > Regards,Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Good idea,Paul.I may just try leaving one vine (a less vigorous one) ...
>
> read more »

wrote:

> Micheal,
>
> You can make the vine more virouous by mulching with wood chips.

I think his problem is with his vines being TOO vigorous already.

I would think that mulching with wood would provide an excellent place for
fungi to over winter. The trend here in Eastern US is to cane prune and
thereby eliminating much of the older wood that provides sites for fungi to
overwinter.

> A
> healthy vine will produce grapes higher in brix. I noticed you wrote
> "My vines are situated near Hereford on a south facing limestone soil
> site.It tends to dry out quickly,and I
> sometimes have problems with powdery mildew." If your soil dries out
> quickly mulch them. They will be healthier for it. The healthier the
> vine the better the grapes.
>
> On Jul 14, 12:49Â*pm, michael > wrote:
>> On 14 July, 03:38, wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Michael,
>>
>> > How about doing a little experiment? Leave the laterals on one vine
>> > and see if it makes any difference. Â*With brix readings of 17 you have
>> > nothing to lose. Don't sweat a little tangle. The vines can handle it.
>>
>> > On Jul 13, 9:48Â*am, michael > wrote:
>>
>> > > On 8 July, 03:20, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>>
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > > > I'm not advocating retaining laterals due to hedginging above the
>> > > > > 5' wire. Cut them off. I'm advocating leaving the natural ones
>> > > > > that the vine forms to help it ripen the fruit. I've Â*NEVER see
>> > > > > clusters on these. While I have read that some vines do develop
>> > > > > clusters on these laterals ( natural ones) , I have never
>> > > > > experienced them. If it is a phenomonon that only happens every
>> > > > > once in a while I wouldn't sweat it.
>>
>> > > > I experience it in every variety that I grow so from my experience
>> > > > it is not a rare phenonomon. If you do not experience bud break
>> > > > until May, you are growing in a cool environment and one in which
>> > > > wine is not normally grown.
>>
>> > > > I have never heard of vines naturally putting forth laterals to
>> > > > ripen fruit. Could you please provide a reference.
>>
>> > > > Winkler in his classic "General Viticulture" talks about the 2nd
>> > > > and 3rd crops from laterals so it seems the vine is trying to
>> > > > procduce more seeds for birds or whatever animal to spread the the
>> > > > seeds and propagate the species as opposed to "Ripening of the
>> > > > fruit". Â*Winkler's expertise was in table grapes and table grapes
>> > > > do not have to have the maturity of wine grapes to be of sale
>> > > > value. Â*Nature could care less about our desire for fruit ripe
>> > > > enough for quality wine. Â*It DOES care about supplying seeds to
>> > > > propagate the species.
>>
>> > > > Where are you growing your fruit? Â*What varieties do you grow?
>>
>> > > > For what it is worth. Â*Unless the laterals are causing congestion
>> > > > in the canopy, I leave them. Â*I do remove the clusters from the
>> > > > laterals that I leave and I do remove laterals in a crowded canopy
>> > > > to promote air flow and avoid shading the fruit.
>>
>> > > > I think it is all a matter of what you are growing and WHERE you
>> > > > are growing. Â*The general statement to maintain laterals in an
>> > > > overly vigorous situation is, in my opinion, not good advice.
>>
>> > > > > On Jul 7, 4:09Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
>> > > > > wrote:
>> > > > >> michael wrote:
>> > > > >> > On 7 July, 13:32, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
>> > > > >> > wrote:
>> > > > >> >> wrote:
>> > > > >> >> > On Jul 3, 2:09Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann"
>> > > > >> >> > > wrote:
>> > > > >> >> >> wrote:
>> > > > >> >> >> > Michael,
>>
>> > > > >> >> >> > I use zip ties also known as electrical ties. They work
>> > > > >> >> >> > great and you can pull them very tight. I don't think
>> > > > >> >> >> > anything will slip thru. I also see you prune off the
>> > > > >> >> >> > side shoots. I would advise against that. They're used
>> > > > >> >> >> > by the vine to ripen the fruit. Does your fruit get
>> > > > >> >> >> > ripe? If you think they crowd the canopy too much a
>> > > > >> >> >> > technique you could use is only allow every other bud to
>> > > > >> >> >> > shoot in the spring there by spacing the canopy. Cutting
>> > > > >> >> >> > the laterals off is not recommended.
>>
>> > > > >> >> >> I think we may have had this converstion before.
>>
>> > > > >> >> >> Electrical ties that would hold the shoot tight enough
>> > > > >> >> >> against the wire also probably hold them tight enough to
>> > > > >> >> >> girdle the shoot as it grows and prevent nutrients from
>> > > > >> >> >> reaching the new growth.
>>
>> > > > >> >> >> I do not know where you are growing your grapes, but here
>> > > > >> >> >> in the East, EVERYONE I know of, commercial growers and
>> > > > >> >> >> amateurs alike DO prune off laterials especially those
>> > > > >> >> >> that cause the canopy to be too dense.
>>
>> > > > >> >> >> As I mentioned before in another response last year,
>> > > > >> >> >> laterals do produce fruit and this fruit takes energy away
>> > > > >> >> >> from the main shoot fruit. Â*It is also fruit that will
>> > > > >> >> >> never ripen fully and therefore should not be used in the
>> > > > >> >> >> harvest.
>>
>> > > > >> >> >> Perhaps you live in an area that is very dry and you can
>> > > > >> >> >> regulate growth by the amount of drip irrigation but here
>> > > > >> >> >> in the East and I assume England, vigor is a major
>> > > > >> >> >> problem.
>>
>> > > > >> >> >> Shoot thinning is another method used. Â*If one has shoots
>> > > > >> >> >> from secondary or tertiary buds, then these can be
>> > > > >> >> >> removed, especially if they are not needed for a spur for
>> > > > >> >> >> next year.
>>
>> > > > >> >> >> Paul
>>
>> > > > >> >> > Michael wrote:
>>
>> > > > >> >> > "I get bud burst in early May,and by end of June the
>> > > > >> >> > vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above
>> > > > >> >> > this wire and remove the side shoots each week."
>>
>> > > > >> >> > That is why using zip ties is exactly what he should use.
>> > > > >> >> > Use the zip ties on the top wire tied tight and use them
>> > > > >> >> > loose on the lower ones. As far as the laterals are
>> > > > >> >> > concerned, yes, I disagree with you and there are plenty of
>> > > > >> >> > other people who do too, Ever leave the laterals on one
>> > > > >> >> > vine and see if that vines brix is higher? I betcha it is.
>>
>> > > > >> >> I am confused. Â*You say you hedge above the top wire and
>> > > > >> >> remove the side shoots that result from this hedging and
>> > > > >> >> leave the other laterals?
>>
>> > > > >> >> I am always willing to learn. Â*Do you have a literature cites
>> > > > >> >> so support your views?
>>
>> > > > >> >> >> > On Jun 29, 5:34Â*am, michael
>> > > > >> >> >> > > wrote:
>> > > > >> >> >> >> I grow a few vines in England on the Double Guyot
>> > > > >> >> >> >> Method.The vines are quite vigorous as they are on ther
>> > > > >> >> >> >> own roots.( I propagated them all from cuttings).I get
>> > > > >> >> >> >> bud burst in early May,and by end of June the vertical
>> > > > >> >> >> >> shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above this
>> > > > >> >> >> >> wire and remove the side shoots each week.In all of
>> > > > >> >> >> >> this I find it necessary to do a lot of tying in to
>> > > > >> >> >> >> keep the vines reasonably in order.I tie an 8" piece of
>> > > > >> >> >> >> string (2 ply) tightly on to the wire with a reef
>> > > > >> >> >> >> knot,and then loosely round the vertical
>> > > > >> >> >> >> shoot.However,I find it difficult to tie the shoot onto
>> > > > >> >> >> >> the 2.5 mm wire tightly enough to prevent it
>> > > > >> >> >> >> slipping.Someone has suggested plastic covered thin
>> > > > >> >> >> >> wire for ties,but I feel that they will be even more
>> > > > >> >> >> >> difficult to remove in the Autumn.Could someone advise
>> > > > >> >> >> >> of a more secure way? Michael- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > > > >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > > > >> >> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> > > > >> > I am not sure whether your comment/question is to me,but I
>> > > > >> > will clarify.In England which is a cool climate we get very
>> > > > >> > robust growth from the vertical shoots arising from the two
>> > > > >> > horizontal Guyot arms.These shoots reach 5' (my top wire) by
>> > > > >> > about end May,and I then top the shoots,which then encourages
>> > > > >> > lateral side shoots (as in tomato growing).I take as many of
>> > > > >> > these off as possible by pruning them to the second leaf.I do
>> > > > >> > this to stop the hedge becoming too tangled and dense,so that
>> > > > >> > my spraying (mainly wettable sulphur to prevent powdery
>> > > > >> > mildew) is efficient.Later I remove some of the lower leaves
>> > > > >> > near the grape bunches to aid ripening. Is this a sensible
>> > > > >> > procedure or am I losing Brix as someone suggested Michael
>>
>> > > > >> I think your are doing things right.
>>
>> > > > >> doublesb, or whatever his or her real name is, advocates
>> > > > >> retaining laterals. In my opinion, this can lead to a canopy
>> > > > >> that is unmanageable in climates that promote vigorous growth.
>> > > > >> It also promotes a "second crop" which will never ripen but will
>> > > > >> take energy away from clusters on primary shoots. Â*I was asking
>> > > > >> him (doublesp) for literature cites.
>>
>> > > > >> What are your growing?
>> > > > >> I live in Central Maryland and also have problems with overly
>> > > > >> vigorous vines.
>>
>> > > > >> Paul- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > > > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> > > Hi Paul,
>> > > Thanks for your support.Englands viticulture has only
>> > > developed over the last few years,and several growers have won top
>> > > prizes for white wine and particularly sparkling wine,comparable with
>> > > good champagne.Certainly climate change is helping to ripen the fruit
>> > > well,but typical ripeness for England is in the 17-19 Brix
>> > > range.These wines seem to keep a fruity character due to lack of
>> > > excessive heat- our summer temperatures tend to be between 20-30C,and
>> > > very occasionally up to 35C.
>> > > I only grow vines to produce wine for my own consumption
>> > > (I also make hard cider).My vines are situated near Hereford on a
>> > > south facing limestone soil site.It tends to dry out quickly,and I
>> > > sometimes have problems with powdery mildew.A very successful
>> > > vineyard (Three Choirs) is about 8 miles away,so I suspect my climate
>> > > is good for the vines I grow.I have researched the varieties that are
>> > > successful in Northen Europe,and have chosen:
>> > > Whites- Schonburger,Bacchus
>> > > Reds -Regent,Rondo
>>
>> > > The reds are fairly recent German hybrids and are producing some
>> > > excellent wines.
>> > > The vigour and tendency to produce sideshoots does vary,but if I do
>> > > not remove the laterals through the summer,I would end up with an
>> > > impossible tangle.
>> > > Regards,Michael- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> Good idea,Paul.I may just try leaving one vine (a less vigorous one) ...
>>
>> read more »

"I would think that mulching with wood would provide an excellent
place for
fungi to over winter."

Not true. Mulch has long been misunderstood.




On Jul 15, 7:51*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
wrote:
> wrote:
> > Micheal,
>
> > You can make the vine more virouous by mulching with wood chips.
>
> I think his problem is with his vines being TOO vigorous already.
>
> I would think that mulching with wood would provide an excellent place for
> fungi to over winter. *The trend here in Eastern US is to cane prune and
> thereby eliminating much of the older wood that provides sites for fungi to
> overwinter.
>
>
>
> > A
> > healthy vine will produce grapes higher in brix. I noticed you wrote
> > "My vines are situated near Hereford on a south facing limestone soil
> > site.It tends to dry out quickly,and I
> > sometimes have problems with powdery mildew." If your soil dries out
> > quickly mulch them. They will be healthier for it. The healthier the
> > vine the better the grapes.
>
> > On Jul 14, 12:49*pm, michael > wrote:
> >> On 14 July, 03:38, wrote:
>
> >> > Michael,
>
> >> > How about doing a little experiment? Leave the laterals on one vine
> >> > and see if it makes any difference. *With brix readings of 17 you have
> >> > nothing to lose. Don't sweat a little tangle. The vines can handle it.