In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
the acid balance.

Here is the story:
I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
has finished primary.
Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. I wanted to raise
the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
In order to do this, I used the following formula:

4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise

So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
calculated the following:

5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
71.75g/5gal=.35% rise

I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. It was up to .
4%
After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
I added another 20g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
I added another 20g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
I then added 40g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
good

Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
Crap
The taste is very tart. Go figure.

So, what is the best way to add acid? Should I have waited longer
before adding more? Does it take a while for the acid to fully
dissolve?

Where did I go wrong?

On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
> In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
> the acid balance.
>
> Here is the story:
> I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
> has finished primary.
> Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
> that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. I wanted to raise
> the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
> In order to do this, I used the following formula:
>
> 4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise
>
> So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
> calculated the following:
>
> 5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
> 3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
> 71.75g/5gal=.35% rise
>
> I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. It was up to .
> 4%
> After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
> I added another 20g.
>
> After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> I added another 20g.
>
> After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> I then added 40g.
>
> After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
> good
>
> Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
> Crap
> The taste is very tart. Go figure.
>
> So, what is the best way to add acid? Should I have waited longer
> before adding more? Does it take a while for the acid to fully
> dissolve?
>
> Where did I go wrong?

Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0.7% After
adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
happy with that. If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
stir before measuring. In my experience the apparent acid after a
decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
hours or even a day.

I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
more, especially so soon.

For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage at
http://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermc...lc_applet.html is an
excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). I don't carry the
maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
tool often to work out my wine details.

I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
type of wine) the first time you make it. Maybe adjust up and down
from there after tasting the finished wine. Maybe just using the
information for the next batch. That is my approach now in making
country wines. Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. I am
starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...

I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
required). Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
forgiving level. Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
harm if it is done gently...

You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. I did this for a
rhubarb wine and it worked very well. It does require that you add
winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
amount.

Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
it can't hurt...

Good luck, Jim

On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c > wrote:
> On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
>
>
> > In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
> > the acid balance.
>
> > Here is the story:
> > I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
> > has finished primary.
> > Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
> > that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. I wanted to raise
> > the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
> > In order to do this, I used the following formula:
>
> > 4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise
>
> > So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
> > calculated the following:
>
> > 5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
> > 3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
> > 71.75g/5gal=.35% rise
>
> > I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. It was up to .
> > 4%
> > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
> > I added another 20g.
>
> > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > I added another 20g.
>
> > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > I then added 40g.
>
> > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
> > good
>
> > Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
> > Crap
> > The taste is very tart. Go figure.
>
> > So, what is the best way to add acid? Should I have waited longer
> > before adding more? Does it take a while for the acid to fully
> > dissolve?
>
> > Where did I go wrong?
>
> Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
> addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0.7% After
> adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
> happy with that. If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
> waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
> stir before measuring. In my experience the apparent acid after a
> decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
> hours or even a day.
>
> I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
> more, especially so soon.
>
> For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage athttp://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.htmlis an
> excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
> acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). I don't carry the
> maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
> tool often to work out my wine details.
>
> I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
> that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
> type of wine) the first time you make it. Maybe adjust up and down
> from there after tasting the finished wine. Maybe just using the
> information for the next batch. That is my approach now in making
> country wines. Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
> for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. I am
> starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
> Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...
>
> I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
> all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
> and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
> required). Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
> forgiving level. Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
> fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
> harm if it is done gently...
>
> You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. I did this for a
> rhubarb wine and it worked very well. It does require that you add
> winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
> amount.
>
> Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
> than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
> it can't hurt...
>
> Good luck, Jim

Wow. First off, kit wines are pre-balanced so the need to make a
drastic change like that is questionable. Use your taste buds as a
tie breaker, always. They are the best instrument you own.

Next, never add that much acid. I think you acid test kit is bad, the
NAOH may be off. You are literally measuring tartaric acid per given
quantity, it sounds like you added way too much.

That said, get the wine as cold as possible 28F is ideal. That will
pull excess tartaric out

Please don't take this wrong, I'm not being critical. All I'm saying
is the real art in winemaking is knowing when to say no, you seem to
have gotten too into getting the numbers right to stop and do a
reality check on them.

Don't give up, chill it.

Joe

On Mar 17, 5:33*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
> > > In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
> > > the acid balance.
>
> > > Here is the story:
> > > I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
> > > has finished primary.
> > > Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
> > > that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
> > > the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
> > > In order to do this, I used the following formula:
>
> > > 4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise
>
> > > So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
> > > calculated the following:
>
> > > 5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
> > > 3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
> > > 71.75g/5gal=.35% rise
>
> > > I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to

On Mar 17, 7:06*am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
> On Mar 17, 5:33*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
> > > > In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
> > > > the acid balance.
>
> > > > Here is the story:
> > > > I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
> > > > has finished primary.
> > > > Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
> > > > that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
> > > > the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
> > > > In order to do this, I used the following formula:
>
> > > > 4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise
>
> > > > So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
> > > > calculated the following:
>
> > > > 5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
> > > > 3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
> > > > 71.75g/5gal=.35% rise
>
> > > > I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to .
> > > > 4%
> > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
> > > > I added another 20g.
>
> > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > I added another 20g.
>
> > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > I then added *40g.
>
> > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
> > > > good
>
> > > > Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
> > > > Crap
> > > > The taste is very tart. Go figure.
>
> > > > So, what is the best way to add acid? *Should I have waited longer
> > > > before adding more? *Does it take a while for the acid to fully
> > > > dissolve?
>
> > > > Where did I go wrong?
>
> > > Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
> > > addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0.7% *After
> > > adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
> > > happy with that. *If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
> > > waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
> > > stir before measuring. *In my experience the apparent acid after a
> > > decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
> > > hours or even a day.
>
> > > I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
> > > more, especially so soon.
>
> > > For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage athttp://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.htmlisan
> > > excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
> > > acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). *I don't carry the
> > > maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
> > > tool often to work out my wine details.
>
> > > I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
> > > that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
> > > type of wine) the first time you make it. *Maybe adjust up and down
> > > from there after tasting the finished wine. *Maybe just using the
> > > information for the next batch. *That is my approach now in making
> > > country wines. *Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
> > > for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. *I am
> > > starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
> > > Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...
>
> > > I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
> > > all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
> > > and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
> > > required). *Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
> > > forgiving level. *Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
> > > fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
> > > harm if it is done gently...
>
> > > You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. *I did this for a
> > > rhubarb wine and it worked very well. *It does require that you add
> > > winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
> > > amount.
>
> > > Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
> > > than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
> > > it can't hurt...
>
> > > Good luck, Jim
>
> > Wow. * First off, kit wines are pre-balanced so the need to make a
> > drastic change like that is questionable. *Use your taste buds as a
> > tie breaker, always. *They are the best instrument you own.
>
> > Next, never add that much acid. *I think you acid test kit is bad, the
> > NAOH may be off. *You are literally measuring tartaric acid per given
> > quantity, it sounds like you added way too much.
>
> > That said, get the wine as cold as possible 28F is ideal. *That will
> > pull excess tartaric out
>
> > Please don't take this wrong, I'm not being critical. *All I'm saying
> > is the real art in winemaking is knowing when to say no, you seem to
> > have gotten too into getting the numbers right to stop and do a
> > reality check on them.
>
> > Don't give up, chill it.
>
> > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I'm at a stage in my winemaking art that I want and NEED critical
> feedback. *It is very very *much appreciated.
>
> BTW, *i started this batch with a *couple of cans of concentrate, not
> a kit.
> To me, a kit is the juice/concentrate, chemicals, instructions
> etc..
> I just started with a couple of cans of concentrate.
>
> OR, are cans of concentrate referred to as Kit wines too?
>
> What I am going to to is to induce MLF. then test it again with paper
> chromatography, and a TA test.
> Then cold stabilize.
>
> If that does not work, i will add a base like Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Couple of things: First, your calculations would be way easier if you
switched to metric - 5 US gallons is 19L and using g/L instead of .x
%, you have 3g/L and want to go to 7g/L, so just multiply 19 by 4 to
get the total amount. Also, not sure where the 4.1 factor came from?
TA is measured as tartaric acid, so what you add is what you get, i.e,
you should need 3.8 g tartaric for 1g/L (0.1%) increase in 1gal.

Second, you can't measure acid correctly on must from concentrate -
they warn about this in kit making so the same things should apply to
straight concentrate, probably even more. The concentration process
binds some acids with other components in the must, and the bond only
gets release during fermenation. So that's a big part of your problem.

Pp

On Mar 17, 12:48*pm, pp > wrote:
> On Mar 17, 7:06*am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 17, 5:33*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c > wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
> > > > > In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
> > > > > the acid balance.
>
> > > > > Here is the story:
> > > > > I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
> > > > > has finished primary.
> > > > > Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
> > > > > that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
> > > > > the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
> > > > > In order to do this, I used the following formula:
>
> > > > > 4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise
>
> > > > > So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
> > > > > calculated the following:
>
> > > > > 5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
> > > > > 3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
> > > > > 71.75g/5gal=.35% rise
>
> > > > > I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to .
> > > > > 4%
> > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
> > > > > I added another 20g.
>
> > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > I added another 20g.
>
> > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > I then added *40g.
>
> > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
> > > > > good
>
> > > > > Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
> > > > > Crap
> > > > > The taste is very tart. Go figure.
>
> > > > > So, what is the best way to add acid? *Should I have waited longer
> > > > > before adding more? *Does it take a while for the acid to fully
> > > > > dissolve?
>
> > > > > Where did I go wrong?
>
> > > > Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
> > > > addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0.7% *After
> > > > adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
> > > > happy with that. *If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
> > > > waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
> > > > stir before measuring. *In my experience the apparent acid after a
> > > > decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
> > > > hours or even a day.
>
> > > > I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
> > > > more, especially so soon.
>
> > > > For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage athttp://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.htmlisan
> > > > excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
> > > > acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). *I don't carry the
> > > > maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
> > > > tool often to work out my wine details.
>
> > > > I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
> > > > that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
> > > > type of wine) the first time you make it. *Maybe adjust up and down
> > > > from there after tasting the finished wine. *Maybe just using the
> > > > information for the next batch. *That is my approach now in making
> > > > country wines. *Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
> > > > for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. *I am
> > > > starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
> > > > Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...
>
> > > > I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
> > > > all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
> > > > and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
> > > > required). *Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
> > > > forgiving level. *Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
> > > > fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
> > > > harm if it is done gently...
>
> > > > You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. *I did this for a
> > > > rhubarb wine and it worked very well. *It does require that you add
> > > > winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
> > > > amount.
>
> > > > Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
> > > > than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
> > > > it can't hurt...
>
> > > > Good luck, Jim
>
> > > Wow. * First off, kit wines are pre-balanced so the need to make a
> > > drastic change like that is questionable. *Use your taste buds as a
> > > tie breaker, always. *They are the best instrument you own.
>
> > > Next, never add that much acid. *I think you acid test kit is bad, the
> > > NAOH may be off. *You are literally measuring tartaric acid per given
> > > quantity, it sounds like you added way too much.
>
> > > That said, get the wine as cold as possible 28F is ideal. *That will
> > > pull excess tartaric out
>
> > > Please don't take this wrong, I'm not being critical. *All I'm saying
> > > is the real art in winemaking is knowing when to say no, you seem to
> > > have gotten too into getting the numbers right to stop and do a
> > > reality check on them.
>
> > > Don't give up, chill it.
>
> > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I'm at a stage in my winemaking art that I want and NEED critical
> > feedback. *It is very very *much appreciated.
>
> > BTW, *i started this batch with a *couple of cans of concentrate, not
> > a kit.
> > To me, a kit is the juice/concentrate, chemicals, instructions
> > etc..
> > I just started with a couple of cans of concentrate.
>
> > OR, are cans of concentrate referred to as Kit wines too?
>
> > What I am going to to is to induce MLF. then test it again with paper
> > chromatography, and a TA test.
> > Then cold stabilize.
>
> > If that does not work, i will add a base like Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Couple of things: First, your calculations would be way easier if you
> switched to metric - 5 US gallons is 19L and using g/L instead of .x
> %, you have 3g/L and want to go to 7g/L, so just multiply 19 by 4 to
> get the total amount. Also, not sure where the 4.1 factor came from?
> TA is measured as tartaric acid, so what you add is what you get, i.e,
> you should need 3.8 g tartaric for 1g/L (0.1%) increase in 1gal.
>
> Second, you can't measure acid correctly on must from concentrate -
> they warn about this in kit making so the same things should apply to
> straight concentrate, probably even more. The concentration process
> binds some acids with other components in the must, and the bond only
> gets release during fermenation. So that's a big part of your problem.
>
> Pp- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I got the 4.1 factor from Jack Keller
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid.asp
"Most blends, however, are 40-40-20, and adding 3.9 grams of this
ratio blend will increase the acidity in a gallon of must
approximately 0.1%. This same increase can be achieved by adding to a
gallon of must 4.1 grams of tartaric acid or 3.7 grams of either malic
acid or citric acid."

On Mar 17, 12:48*pm, pp > wrote:
> On Mar 17, 7:06*am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 17, 5:33*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c > wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
> > > > > In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
> > > > > the acid balance.
>
> > > > > Here is the story:
> > > > > I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
> > > > > has finished primary.
> > > > > Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
> > > > > that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
> > > > > the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
> > > > > In order to do this, I used the following formula:
>
> > > > > 4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise
>
> > > > > So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
> > > > > calculated the following:
>
> > > > > 5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
> > > > > 3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
> > > > > 71.75g/5gal=.35% rise
>
> > > > > I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to .
> > > > > 4%
> > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
> > > > > I added another 20g.
>
> > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > I added another 20g.
>
> > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > I then added *40g.
>
> > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
> > > > > good
>
> > > > > Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
> > > > > Crap
> > > > > The taste is very tart. Go figure.
>
> > > > > So, what is the best way to add acid? *Should I have waited longer
> > > > > before adding more? *Does it take a while for the acid to fully
> > > > > dissolve?
>
> > > > > Where did I go wrong?
>
> > > > Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
> > > > addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0.7% *After
> > > > adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
> > > > happy with that. *If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
> > > > waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
> > > > stir before measuring. *In my experience the apparent acid after a
> > > > decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
> > > > hours or even a day.
>
> > > > I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
> > > > more, especially so soon.
>
> > > > For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage athttp://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.htmlisan
> > > > excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
> > > > acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). *I don't carry the
> > > > maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
> > > > tool often to work out my wine details.
>
> > > > I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
> > > > that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
> > > > type of wine) the first time you make it. *Maybe adjust up and down
> > > > from there after tasting the finished wine. *Maybe just using the
> > > > information for the next batch. *That is my approach now in making
> > > > country wines. *Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
> > > > for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. *I am
> > > > starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
> > > > Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...
>
> > > > I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
> > > > all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
> > > > and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
> > > > required). *Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
> > > > forgiving level. *Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
> > > > fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
> > > > harm if it is done gently...
>
> > > > You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. *I did this for a
> > > > rhubarb wine and it worked very well. *It does require that you add
> > > > winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
> > > > amount.
>
> > > > Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
> > > > than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
> > > > it can't hurt...
>
> > > > Good luck, Jim
>
> > > Wow. * First off, kit wines are pre-balanced so the need to make a
> > > drastic change like that is questionable. *Use your taste buds as a
> > > tie breaker, always. *They are the best instrument you own.
>
> > > Next, never add that much acid. *I think you acid test kit is bad, the
> > > NAOH may be off. *You are literally measuring tartaric acid per given
> > > quantity, it sounds like you added way too much.
>
> > > That said, get the wine as cold as possible 28F is ideal. *That will
> > > pull excess tartaric out
>
> > > Please don't take this wrong, I'm not being critical. *All I'm saying
> > > is the real art in winemaking is knowing when to say no, you seem to
> > > have gotten too into getting the numbers right to stop and do a
> > > reality check on them.
>
> > > Don't give up, chill it.
>
> > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I'm at a stage in my winemaking art that I want and NEED critical
> > feedback. *It is very very *much appreciated.
>
> > BTW, *i started this batch with a *couple of cans of concentrate, not
> > a kit.
> > To me, a kit is the juice/concentrate, chemicals, instructions
> > etc..
> > I just started with a couple of cans of concentrate.
>
> > OR, are cans of concentrate referred to as Kit wines too?
>
> > What I am going to to is to induce MLF. then test it again with paper
> > chromatography, and a TA test.
> > Then cold stabilize.
>
> > If that does not work, i will add a base like Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Couple of things: First, your calculations would be way easier if you
> switched to metric - 5 US gallons is 19L and using g/L instead of .x
> %, you have 3g/L and want to go to 7g/L, so just multiply 19 by 4 to
> get the total amount. Also, not sure where the 4.1 factor came from?
> TA is measured as tartaric acid, so what you add is what you get, i.e,
> you should need 3.8 g tartaric for 1g/L (0.1%) increase in 1gal.
>
> Second, you can't measure acid correctly on must from concentrate -
> they warn about this in kit making so the same things should apply to
> straight concentrate, probably even more. The concentration process
> binds some acids with other components in the must, and the bond only
> gets release during fermenation. So that's a big part of your problem.
>
> Pp- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Agreed on both and Wayne, I did the same thing on my first wine from
cans; I just didn't add as much... Experience is a bitter
teacher...

Joe

On Mar 17, 1:30*pm, Wayne Harris > wrote:
> On Mar 17, 12:48*pm, pp > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 17, 7:06*am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 17, 5:33*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
> > > > > > In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
> > > > > > the acid balance.
>
> > > > > > Here is the story:
> > > > > > I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
> > > > > > has finished primary.
> > > > > > Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
> > > > > > that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
> > > > > > the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
> > > > > > In order to do this, I used the following formula:
>
> > > > > > 4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise
>
> > > > > > So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
> > > > > > calculated the following:
>
> > > > > > 5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
> > > > > > 3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
> > > > > > 71.75g/5gal=.35% rise
>
> > > > > > I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to .
> > > > > > 4%
> > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
> > > > > > I added another 20g.
>
> > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > > I added another 20g.
>
> > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > > I then added *40g.
>
> > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
> > > > > > good
>
> > > > > > Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
> > > > > > Crap
> > > > > > The taste is very tart. Go figure.
>
> > > > > > So, what is the best way to add acid? *Should I have waited longer
> > > > > > before adding more? *Does it take a while for the acid to fully
> > > > > > dissolve?
>
> > > > > > Where did I go wrong?
>
> > > > > Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
> > > > > addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0.7% *After
> > > > > adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
> > > > > happy with that. *If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
> > > > > waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
> > > > > stir before measuring. *In my experience the apparent acid after a
> > > > > decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
> > > > > hours or even a day.
>
> > > > > I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
> > > > > more, especially so soon.
>
> > > > > For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage athttp://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.htmlisan
> > > > > excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
> > > > > acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). *I don't carry the
> > > > > maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
> > > > > tool often to work out my wine details.
>
> > > > > I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
> > > > > that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
> > > > > type of wine) the first time you make it. *Maybe adjust up and down
> > > > > from there after tasting the finished wine. *Maybe just using the
> > > > > information for the next batch. *That is my approach now in making
> > > > > country wines. *Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
> > > > > for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. *I am
> > > > > starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
> > > > > Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...
>
> > > > > I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
> > > > > all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
> > > > > and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
> > > > > required). *Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
> > > > > forgiving level. *Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
> > > > > fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
> > > > > harm if it is done gently...
>
> > > > > You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. *I did this for a
> > > > > rhubarb wine and it worked very well. *It does require that you add
> > > > > winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
> > > > > amount.
>
> > > > > Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
> > > > > than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
> > > > > it can't hurt...
>
> > > > > Good luck, Jim
>
> > > > Wow. * First off, kit wines are pre-balanced so the need to make a
> > > > drastic change like that is questionable. *Use your taste buds as a
> > > > tie breaker, always. *They are the best instrument you own.
>
> > > > Next, never add that much acid. *I think you acid test kit is bad, the
> > > > NAOH may be off. *You are literally measuring tartaric acid per given
> > > > quantity, it sounds like you added way too much.
>
> > > > That said, get the wine as cold as possible 28F is ideal. *That will
> > > > pull excess tartaric out
>
> > > > Please don't take this wrong, I'm not being critical. *All I'm saying
> > > > is the real art in winemaking is knowing when to say no, you seem to
> > > > have gotten too into getting the numbers right to stop and do a
> > > > reality check on them.
>
> > > > Don't give up, chill it.
>
> > > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > I'm at a stage in my winemaking art that I want and NEED critical
> > > feedback. *It is very very *much appreciated.
>
> > > BTW, *i started this batch with a *couple of cans of concentrate, not
> > > a kit.
> > > To me, a kit is the juice/concentrate, chemicals, instructions
> > > etc..
> > > I just started with a couple of cans of concentrate.
>
> > > OR, are cans of concentrate referred to as Kit wines too?
>
> > > What I am going to to is to induce MLF. then test it again with paper
> > > chromatography, and a TA test.
> > > Then cold stabilize.
>
> > > If that does not work, i will add a base like Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Couple of things: First, your calculations would be way easier if you
> > switched to metric - 5 US gallons is 19L and using g/L instead of .x
> > %, you have 3g/L and want to go to 7g/L, so just multiply 19 by 4 to
> > get the total amount. Also, not sure where the 4.1 factor came from?
> > TA is measured as tartaric acid, so what you add is what you get, i.e,
> > you should need 3.8 g tartaric for 1g/L (0.1%) increase in 1gal.
>
> > Second, you can't measure acid correctly on must from concentrate -
> > they warn about this in kit making so the same things should apply to
> > straight concentrate, probably even more. The concentration process
> > binds some acids with other components in the must, and the bond only
> > gets release during fermenation. So that's a big part of your problem.
>
> > Pp- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I got the 4.1 factor from Jack Kellerhttp://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid..asp
> "Most blends, however, are 40-40-20, and adding 3.9 grams of this
> ratio blend will increase the acidity in a gallon of must
> approximately 0.1%. This same increase can be achieved by adding to a
> gallon of must 4.1 grams of tartaric acid or 3.7 grams of either malic
> acid or citric acid."- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Did you use acid blend or straight tartaric? If tartaric, chilling
will get rid of the excess.

If acid blend, I'm not sure MLF will help and I personally wouldn't
spend the money ofn a good culture for canned concentrate. It can
have an off taste depending on how it was made and how long it sat on
the shelf. More important, the malic acid in acid blend may not be
affected by MLF.

Yes, canned concentrate is still kit winemaking.

Tell us what was used and we can go from there, another method of acid
reduction that may help is the double salt method.

Joe

On Mar 17, 5:32*pm, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> On Mar 17, 1:30*pm, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 17, 12:48*pm, pp > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 17, 7:06*am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 17, 5:33*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
> > > > > > > the acid balance.
>
> > > > > > > Here is the story:
> > > > > > > I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
> > > > > > > has finished primary.
> > > > > > > Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
> > > > > > > that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
> > > > > > > the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
> > > > > > > In order to do this, I used the following formula:
>
> > > > > > > 4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise
>
> > > > > > > So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
> > > > > > > calculated the following:
>
> > > > > > > 5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
> > > > > > > 3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
> > > > > > > 71.75g/5gal=.35% rise
>
> > > > > > > I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to .
> > > > > > > 4%
> > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
> > > > > > > I added another 20g.
>
> > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > > > I added another 20g.
>
> > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > > > I then added *40g.
>
> > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
> > > > > > > good
>
> > > > > > > Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
> > > > > > > Crap
> > > > > > > The taste is very tart. Go figure.
>
> > > > > > > So, what is the best way to add acid? *Should I have waited longer
> > > > > > > before adding more? *Does it take a while for the acid to fully
> > > > > > > dissolve?
>
> > > > > > > Where did I go wrong?
>
> > > > > > Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
> > > > > > addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0.7% *After
> > > > > > adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
> > > > > > happy with that. *If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
> > > > > > waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
> > > > > > stir before measuring. *In my experience the apparent acid after a
> > > > > > decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
> > > > > > hours or even a day.
>
> > > > > > I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
> > > > > > more, especially so soon.
>
> > > > > > For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage athttp://web2..airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.htmlisan
> > > > > > excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
> > > > > > acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). *I don't carry the
> > > > > > maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
> > > > > > tool often to work out my wine details.
>
> > > > > > I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
> > > > > > that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
> > > > > > type of wine) the first time you make it. *Maybe adjust up and down
> > > > > > from there after tasting the finished wine. *Maybe just using the
> > > > > > information for the next batch. *That is my approach now in making
> > > > > > country wines. *Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
> > > > > > for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. *I am
> > > > > > starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
> > > > > > Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...
>
> > > > > > I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
> > > > > > all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
> > > > > > and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
> > > > > > required). *Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
> > > > > > forgiving level. *Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
> > > > > > fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
> > > > > > harm if it is done gently...
>
> > > > > > You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. *I did this for a
> > > > > > rhubarb wine and it worked very well. *It does require that you add
> > > > > > winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
> > > > > > amount.
>
> > > > > > Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
> > > > > > than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
> > > > > > it can't hurt...
>
> > > > > > Good luck, Jim
>
> > > > > Wow. * First off, kit wines are pre-balanced so the need to make a
> > > > > drastic change like that is questionable. *Use your taste buds as a
> > > > > tie breaker, always. *They are the best instrument you own.
>
> > > > > Next, never add that much acid. *I think you acid test kit is bad, the
> > > > > NAOH may be off. *You are literally measuring tartaric acid per given
> > > > > quantity, it sounds like you added way too much.
>
> > > > > That said, get the wine as cold as possible 28F is ideal. *That will
> > > > > pull excess tartaric out
>
> > > > > Please don't take this wrong, I'm not being critical. *All I'm saying
> > > > > is the real art in winemaking is knowing when to say no, you seem to
> > > > > have gotten too into getting the numbers right to stop and do a
> > > > > reality check on them.
>
> > > > > Don't give up, chill it.
>
> > > > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > I'm at a stage in my winemaking art that I want and NEED critical
> > > > feedback. *It is very very *much appreciated.
>
> > > > BTW, *i started this batch with a *couple of cans of concentrate, not
> > > > a kit.
> > > > To me, a kit is the juice/concentrate, chemicals, instructions
> > > > etc..
> > > > I just started with a couple of cans of concentrate.
>
> > > > OR, are cans of concentrate referred to as Kit wines too?
>
> > > > What I am going to to is to induce MLF. then test it again with paper
> > > > chromatography, and a TA test.
> > > > Then cold stabilize.
>
> > > > If that does not work, i will add a base like Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Couple of things: First, your calculations would be way easier if you
> > > switched to metric - 5 US gallons is 19L and using g/L instead of .x
> > > %, you have 3g/L and want to go to 7g/L, so just multiply 19 by 4 to
> > > get the total amount. Also, not sure where the 4.1 factor came from?
> > > TA is measured as tartaric acid, so what you add is what you get, i.e,
> > > you should need 3.8 g tartaric for 1g/L (0.1%) increase in 1gal.
>
> > > Second, you can't measure acid correctly on must from concentrate -
> > > they warn about this in kit making so the same things should apply to
> > > straight concentrate, probably even more. The concentration process
> > > binds some acids with other components in the must, and the bond only
> > > gets release during fermenation. So that's a big part of your problem.
>
> > > Pp- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I got the 4.1 factor from Jack Kellerhttp://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid.asp
> > "Most blends, however, are 40-40-20, and adding 3.9 grams of this
> > ratio blend will increase the acidity in a gallon of must
> > approximately 0.1%. This same increase can be achieved by adding to a
> > gallon of must 4.1 grams of tartaric acid or 3.7 grams of either malic
> > acid or citric acid."- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Did you use acid blend or straight tartaric? * If tartaric, chilling
> will get rid of the excess.
>
> If acid blend, I'm not sure MLF will help and I personally wouldn't
> spend the money ofn a good culture for canned concentrate. *It can
> have an off taste depending on how it was made and how long it sat on
> the shelf. *More important, the malic acid in acid blend may not be
> affected by MLF.
>
> Yes, canned concentrate is still kit winemaking.
>
> Tell us what was used and we can go from there, another method of acid
> reduction that may help is the double salt method.
>
> Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I used straight tartaric acid.

Sunday. (3/16/08) I added the MLF culture to the wine.
I will check it with paper chromatography in week or so.
Should i see it doing anything? I see absolutly nothing going on.

Plan B: I will chill it.

Plan C: I will add a Calcium Carbonate.

On Mar 18, 8:26*am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
> On Mar 17, 5:32*pm, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 17, 1:30*pm, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 17, 12:48*pm, pp > wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 17, 7:06*am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Mar 17, 5:33*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
> > > > > > > > the acid balance.
>
> > > > > > > > Here is the story:
> > > > > > > > I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
> > > > > > > > has finished primary.
> > > > > > > > Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
> > > > > > > > that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
> > > > > > > > the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
> > > > > > > > In order to do this, I used the following formula:
>
> > > > > > > > 4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise
>
> > > > > > > > So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
> > > > > > > > calculated the following:
>
> > > > > > > > 5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
> > > > > > > > 3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
> > > > > > > > 71.75g/5gal=.35% rise
>
> > > > > > > > I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to .
> > > > > > > > 4%
> > > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
> > > > > > > > I added another 20g.
>
> > > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > > > > I added another 20g.
>
> > > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > > > > I then added *40g.
>
> > > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
> > > > > > > > good
>
> > > > > > > > Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
> > > > > > > > Crap
> > > > > > > > The taste is very tart. Go figure.
>
> > > > > > > > So, what is the best way to add acid? *Should I have waited longer
> > > > > > > > before adding more? *Does it take a while for the acid to fully
> > > > > > > > dissolve?
>
> > > > > > > > Where did I go wrong?
>
> > > > > > > Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
> > > > > > > addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0.7% *After
> > > > > > > adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
> > > > > > > happy with that. *If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
> > > > > > > waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
> > > > > > > stir before measuring. *In my experience the apparent acid after a
> > > > > > > decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
> > > > > > > hours or even a day.
>
> > > > > > > I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
> > > > > > > more, especially so soon.
>
> > > > > > > For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage athttp://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.htmlisan
> > > > > > > excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
> > > > > > > acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). *I don't carry the
> > > > > > > maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
> > > > > > > tool often to work out my wine details.
>
> > > > > > > I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
> > > > > > > that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
> > > > > > > type of wine) the first time you make it. *Maybe adjust up and down
> > > > > > > from there after tasting the finished wine. *Maybe just using the
> > > > > > > information for the next batch. *That is my approach now in making
> > > > > > > country wines. *Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
> > > > > > > for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. *I am
> > > > > > > starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
> > > > > > > Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...
>
> > > > > > > I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
> > > > > > > all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
> > > > > > > and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
> > > > > > > required). *Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
> > > > > > > forgiving level. *Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
> > > > > > > fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
> > > > > > > harm if it is done gently...
>
> > > > > > > You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. *I did this for a
> > > > > > > rhubarb wine and it worked very well. *It does require that you add
> > > > > > > winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
> > > > > > > amount.
>
> > > > > > > Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
> > > > > > > than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
> > > > > > > it can't hurt...
>
> > > > > > > Good luck, Jim
>
> > > > > > Wow. * First off, kit wines are pre-balanced so the need to make a
> > > > > > drastic change like that is questionable. *Use your taste buds as a
> > > > > > tie breaker, always. *They are the best instrument you own.
>
> > > > > > Next, never add that much acid. *I think you acid test kit is bad, the
> > > > > > NAOH may be off. *You are literally measuring tartaric acid per given
> > > > > > quantity, it sounds like you added way too much.
>
> > > > > > That said, get the wine as cold as possible 28F is ideal. *That will
> > > > > > pull excess tartaric out
>
> > > > > > Please don't take this wrong, I'm not being critical. *All I'm saying
> > > > > > is the real art in winemaking is knowing when to say no, you seem to
> > > > > > have gotten too into getting the numbers right to stop and do a
> > > > > > reality check on them.
>
> > > > > > Don't give up, chill it.
>
> > > > > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > I'm at a stage in my winemaking art that I want and NEED critical
> > > > > feedback. *It is very very *much appreciated.
>
> > > > > BTW, *i started this batch with a *couple of cans of concentrate, not
> > > > > a kit.
> > > > > To me, a kit is the juice/concentrate, chemicals, instructions
> > > > > etc..
> > > > > I just started with a couple of cans of concentrate.
>
> > > > > OR, are cans of concentrate referred to as Kit wines too?
>
> > > > > What I am going to to is to induce MLF. then test it again with paper
> > > > > chromatography, and a TA test.
> > > > > Then cold stabilize.
>
> > > > > If that does not work, i will add a base like Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > Couple of things: First, your calculations would be way easier if you
> > > > switched to metric - 5 US gallons is 19L and using g/L instead of .x
> > > > %, you have 3g/L and want to go to 7g/L, so just multiply 19 by 4 to
> > > > get the total amount. Also, not sure where the 4.1 factor came from?
> > > > TA is measured as tartaric acid, so what you add is what you get, i.e,
> > > > you should need 3.8 g tartaric for 1g/L (0.1%) increase in 1gal.
>
> > > > Second, you can't measure acid correctly on must from concentrate -
> > > > they warn about this in kit making so the same things should apply to
> > > > straight concentrate, probably even more. The concentration process
> > > > binds some acids with other components in the must, and the bond only
> > > > gets release during fermenation. So that's a big part of your problem.
>
> > > > Pp- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > I got the 4.1 factor from Jack Kellerhttp://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid.asp
> > > "Most blends, however, are 40-40-20, and adding 3.9 grams of this
> > > ratio blend will increase the acidity in a gallon of must
> > > approximately 0.1%. This same increase can be achieved by adding to a
> > > gallon of must 4.1 grams of tartaric acid or 3.7 grams of either malic
> > > acid or citric acid."- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Did you use acid blend or straight tartaric? * If tartaric, chilling
> > will get rid of the excess.
>
> > If acid blend, I'm not sure MLF will help and I personally wouldn't
> > spend the money ofn a good culture for canned concentrate. *It can
> > have an off taste depending on how it was made and how long it sat on
> > the shelf. *More important, the malic acid in acid blend may not be
> > affected by MLF.
>
> > Yes, canned concentrate is still kit winemaking.
>
> > Tell us what was used and we can go from there, another method of acid
> > reduction that may help is the double salt method.
>
> > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I used straight tartaric acid.
>
> Sunday. (3/16/08) I added the MLF culture to the wine.
> I will check it with paper chromatography in week or so.
> Should i see it doing anything? I see absolutly nothing going on.
>
> Plan B: *I will chill it.
>
> Plan C: I will add a Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Keep in mind that when using grape concentrate, the TA will rise
during the fermentation. Normally, the rise will be about 1 - 2 grams
per litre so you should account for that in your tests. For example,
your original test of .3% (3 grams per litre) would probably have
ended up at .45 - .5% after fermentation.

On Mar 18, 9:14*am, wrote:
> On Mar 18, 8:26*am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 17, 5:32*pm, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 17, 1:30*pm, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 17, 12:48*pm, pp > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Mar 17, 7:06*am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Mar 17, 5:33*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
> > > > > > > > > the acid balance.
>
> > > > > > > > > Here is the story:
> > > > > > > > > I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
> > > > > > > > > has finished primary.
> > > > > > > > > Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
> > > > > > > > > that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
> > > > > > > > > the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
> > > > > > > > > In order to do this, I used the following formula:
>
> > > > > > > > > 4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise
>
> > > > > > > > > So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
> > > > > > > > > calculated the following:
>
> > > > > > > > > 5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
> > > > > > > > > 3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
> > > > > > > > > 71.75g/5gal=.35% rise
>
> > > > > > > > > I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to .
> > > > > > > > > 4%
> > > > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
> > > > > > > > > I added another 20g.
>
> > > > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > > > > > I added another 20g.
>
> > > > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > > > > > I then added *40g.
>
> > > > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
> > > > > > > > > good
>
> > > > > > > > > Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
> > > > > > > > > Crap
> > > > > > > > > The taste is very tart. Go figure.
>
> > > > > > > > > So, what is the best way to add acid? *Should I have waited longer
> > > > > > > > > before adding more? *Does it take a while for the acid to fully
> > > > > > > > > dissolve?
>
> > > > > > > > > Where did I go wrong?
>
> > > > > > > > Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
> > > > > > > > addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0..7% *After
> > > > > > > > adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
> > > > > > > > happy with that. *If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
> > > > > > > > waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
> > > > > > > > stir before measuring. *In my experience the apparent acid after a
> > > > > > > > decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
> > > > > > > > hours or even a day.
>
> > > > > > > > I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
> > > > > > > > more, especially so soon.
>
> > > > > > > > For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage athttp://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.htmlisan
> > > > > > > > excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
> > > > > > > > acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). *I don't carry the
> > > > > > > > maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
> > > > > > > > tool often to work out my wine details.
>
> > > > > > > > I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
> > > > > > > > that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
> > > > > > > > type of wine) the first time you make it. *Maybe adjust up and down
> > > > > > > > from there after tasting the finished wine. *Maybe just using the
> > > > > > > > information for the next batch. *That is my approach now in making
> > > > > > > > country wines. *Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
> > > > > > > > for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. *I am
> > > > > > > > starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
> > > > > > > > Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...
>
> > > > > > > > I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
> > > > > > > > all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
> > > > > > > > and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
> > > > > > > > required). *Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
> > > > > > > > forgiving level. *Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
> > > > > > > > fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
> > > > > > > > harm if it is done gently...
>
> > > > > > > > You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. *I did this for a
> > > > > > > > rhubarb wine and it worked very well. *It does require that you add
> > > > > > > > winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
> > > > > > > > amount.
>
> > > > > > > > Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
> > > > > > > > than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
> > > > > > > > it can't hurt...
>
> > > > > > > > Good luck, Jim
>
> > > > > > > Wow. * First off, kit wines are pre-balanced so the need to make a
> > > > > > > drastic change like that is questionable. *Use your taste buds as a
> > > > > > > tie breaker, always. *They are the best instrument you own.
>
> > > > > > > Next, never add that much acid. *I think you acid test kit is bad, the
> > > > > > > NAOH may be off. *You are literally measuring tartaric acid per given
> > > > > > > quantity, it sounds like you added way too much.
>
> > > > > > > That said, get the wine as cold as possible 28F is ideal. *That will
> > > > > > > pull excess tartaric out
>
> > > > > > > Please don't take this wrong, I'm not being critical. *All I'm saying
> > > > > > > is the real art in winemaking is knowing when to say no, you seem to
> > > > > > > have gotten too into getting the numbers right to stop and do a
> > > > > > > reality check on them.
>
> > > > > > > Don't give up, chill it.
>
> > > > > > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > I'm at a stage in my winemaking art that I want and NEED critical
> > > > > > feedback. *It is very very *much appreciated.
>
> > > > > > BTW, *i started this batch with a *couple of cans of concentrate, not
> > > > > > a kit.
> > > > > > To me, a kit is the juice/concentrate, chemicals, instructions
> > > > > > etc..
> > > > > > I just started with a couple of cans of concentrate.
>
> > > > > > OR, are cans of concentrate referred to as Kit wines too?
>
> > > > > > What I am going to to is to induce MLF. then test it again with paper
> > > > > > chromatography, and a TA test.
> > > > > > Then cold stabilize.
>
> > > > > > If that does not work, i will add a base like Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > Couple of things: First, your calculations would be way easier if you
> > > > > switched to metric - 5 US gallons is 19L and using g/L instead of ..x
> > > > > %, you have 3g/L and want to go to 7g/L, so just multiply 19 by 4 to
> > > > > get the total amount. Also, not sure where the 4.1 factor came from?
> > > > > TA is measured as tartaric acid, so what you add is what you get, i.e,
> > > > > you should need 3.8 g tartaric for 1g/L (0.1%) increase in 1gal.
>
> > > > > Second, you can't measure acid correctly on must from concentrate -
> > > > > they warn about this in kit making so the same things should apply to
> > > > > straight concentrate, probably even more. The concentration process
> > > > > binds some acids with other components in the must, and the bond only
> > > > > gets release during fermenation. So that's a big part of your problem.
>
> > > > > Pp- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > I got the 4.1 factor from Jack Kellerhttp://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid.asp
> > > > "Most blends, however, are 40-40-20, and adding 3.9 grams of this
> > > > ratio blend will increase the acidity in a gallon of must
> > > > approximately 0.1%. This same increase can be achieved by adding to a
> > > > gallon of must 4.1 grams of tartaric acid or 3.7 grams of either malic
> > > > acid or citric acid."- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Did you use acid blend or straight tartaric? * If tartaric, chilling
> > > will get rid of the excess.
>
> > > If acid blend, I'm not sure MLF will help and I personally wouldn't
> > > spend the money ofn a good culture for canned concentrate. *It can
> > > have an off taste depending on how it was made and how long it sat on
> > > the shelf. *More important, the malic acid in acid blend may not be
> > > affected by MLF.
>
> > > Yes, canned concentrate is still kit winemaking.
>
> > > Tell us what was used and we can go from there, another method of acid
> > > reduction that may help is the double salt method.
>
> > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I used straight tartaric acid.
>
> > Sunday. (3/16/08) I added the MLF culture to the wine.
> > I will check it with paper chromatography in week or so.
> > Should i see it doing anything? I see absolutly nothing going on.
>
> > Plan B: *I will chill it.
>
> > Plan C: I will add a Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Keep in mind that when using grape concentrate, the TA will rise
> during the fermentation. Normally, the rise will be about 1 - 2 grams
> per litre so you should account for that in your tests. For example,
> your original test of .3% (3 grams per litre) would probably have
> ended up at .45 - .5% after fermentation.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks, i did not know this.
Interesting. and this effect is limited to juice from concentrate
only?
I what the difference is between juice from concentrate and fresh
juice is that makes this occur.

> I used straight tartaric acid.

Ok, chilling is your best option but you already added the ML
culture. It won't do anything at very cold temperatures, MLF is
better at room temperature. It's common to see tiny little fast
rising bubbles with MLF. Is the sulfite level low? it needs to be
under 30 or maybe even 20 PPM free to work; that and your pH is
probably too low for MLF if it's 3.0 or less you may have issues with
MLF.

I would suggest you try chilling if any of the preceeding exist.

Joe

>
> Sunday. (3/16/08) I added the MLF culture to the wine.
> I will check it with paper chromatography in week or so.
> Should i see it doing anything? I see absolutly nothing going on.
> - Show quoted text -

On Mar 18, 12:29*pm, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> > I used straight tartaric acid.
>
> Ok, chilling is your best option but you already added the ML
> culture. *It won't do anything at very cold temperatures, MLF is
> better at room temperature. *It's common to see tiny little fast
> rising bubbles with MLF. *Is the sulfite level low? *it needs to be
> under 30 or maybe even 20 PPM free to work; that and your pH is
> probably too low for MLF if it's 3.0 or less you may have issues with
> MLF.
>
> I would suggest you try chilling if any of the preceeding exist.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
>
>
> > Sunday. (3/16/08) I added the MLF culture to the wine.
> > I will check it with paper chromatography in week or so.
> > Should i see it doing anything? I see absolutly nothing going on.
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I don't have a pH meter, but i have intentially kept my sulfite level
low in case i wanted to try MLF. (I kinda did anyway).
Its currenlty at 16PPM
I would imagine if my TA is at .82% that my pH is low. (Bad
assumption?)
Thats just a guess though.

Taking wine to garage.

On Mar 18, 2:10*pm, Wayne Harris > wrote:
> On Mar 18, 12:29*pm, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > I used straight tartaric acid.
>
> > Ok, chilling is your best option but you already added the ML
> > culture. *It won't do anything at very cold temperatures, MLF is
> > better at room temperature. *It's common to see tiny little fast
> > rising bubbles with MLF. *Is the sulfite level low? *it needs to be
> > under 30 or maybe even 20 PPM free to work; that and your pH is
> > probably too low for MLF if it's 3.0 or less you may have issues with
> > MLF.
>
> > I would suggest you try chilling if any of the preceeding exist.
>
> > Joe
>
> > > Sunday. (3/16/08) I added the MLF culture to the wine.
> > > I will check it with paper chromatography in week or so.
> > > Should i see it doing anything? I see absolutly nothing going on.
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I don't have a pH meter, *but i have intentially kept my sulfite level
> low in case i wanted to try MLF. (I kinda did anyway).
> Its currenlty at 16PPM
> I would imagine if my TA is at .82% that my pH is low. (Bad
> assumption?)
> Thats just a guess though.
>
> Taking wine to garage.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

No, you are probably right. You added tartaric which swings pH the
most so it is probably at least 3.2 or lower. If you get it to
around 0.6% I think you will be happy with it.

Joe

"Wayne Harris" > wrote in message
...
> In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
> the acid balance.
>
> Here is the story:
> I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
> has finished primary.
> Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
> that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. I wanted to raise
> the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
> In order to do this, I used the following formula:
>
> 4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise
>
> So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
> calculated the following:
>
> 5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
> 3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
> 71.75g/5gal=.35% rise
>
> I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. It was up to .
> 4%
> After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
> I added another 20g.
>
> After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> I added another 20g.
>
> After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> I then added 40g.
>
> After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
> good
>
> Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
> Crap
> The taste is very tart. Go figure.
>
> So, what is the best way to add acid? Should I have waited longer
> before adding more? Does it take a while for the acid to fully
> dissolve?
>
> Where did I go wrong?
>
>


(Oct 2003)
Ed Goist once wrote:

«Throughout the fermentation of a grape-based wine, there is both an
increase in the Total Titratable Acidity resulting from fermentation,
and a decrease (precipitation) of some of the grape's natural fruit
acid (Tartaric).

The acids resulting from fermentation & the winemaking process account
for an increase in TA of approximately 2.0 - 2.5 g/l. This increase
is mostly the result of the formation of Succinic acid [0.5-1.25 g/l].
Succinic acid is the "acid of ethanol" & it is responsible for the
common sour taste shared by all alcoholic beverages. However, other
acids are formed as well during the fermentation, including: Lactic
[~0.3 g/l ], Phosphoric, Carbonic (from the formation of CO2),
Sulfurous (due to the pre-fermentation addition of SO2) & Acetic.

However, with a grape wine, this increase in "fermentation related"
acids is almost perfectly offset by an equal reduction in Tartaric
acid due to the precipitation of potassium bitartrate during & after
fermentation.

Note that this same increase in the TA during fermentation also occurs
with wines made from concentrate, as the process of concentration
removes almost all of the potassium bitartrate from the must prior to
fermentation».

On Mar 19, 10:00*pm, "frederick ploegman" >
wrote:
> "Wayne Harris" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
> > the acid balance.
>
> > Here is the story:
> > I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
> > has finished primary.
> > Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
> > that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
> > the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
> > In order to do this, I used the following formula:
>
> > 4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise
>
> > So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
> > calculated the following:
>
> > 5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
> > 3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
> > 71.75g/5gal=.35% rise
>
> > I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to .
> > 4%
> > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
> > I added another 20g.
>
> > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > I added another 20g.
>
> > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > I then added *40g.
>
> > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
> > good
>
> > Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
> > Crap
> > The taste is very tart. Go figure.
>
> > So, what is the best way to add acid? *Should I have waited longer
> > before adding more? *Does it take a while for the acid to fully
> > dissolve?
>
> > Where did I go wrong?
>
> (Oct 2003)
>
> Ed Goist once wrote:
>
> «Throughout the fermentation of a grape-based wine, there is both an
> increase in the Total Titratable Acidity resulting from fermentation,
> and a decrease (precipitation) of some of the grape's natural fruit
> acid (Tartaric).
>
> The acids resulting from fermentation & the winemaking process account
> for an increase in TA of approximately 2.0 - 2.5 g/l. *This increase
> is mostly the result of the formation of Succinic acid [0.5-1.25 g/l].
> Succinic acid is the "acid of ethanol" & it is responsible for the
> common sour taste shared by all alcoholic beverages. *However, other
> acids are formed as well during the fermentation, including: Lactic
> [~0.3 g/l ], Phosphoric, Carbonic (from the formation of CO2),
> Sulfurous (due to the pre-fermentation addition of SO2) & Acetic.
>
> However, with a grape wine, this increase in "fermentation related"
> acids is almost perfectly offset by an equal reduction in Tartaric
> acid due to the precipitation of potassium bitartrate during & after
> fermentation.
>
> Note that this same increase in the TA during fermentation also occurs
> with wines made from concentrate, as the process of concentration
> removes almost all of the potassium bitartrate from the must prior to
> fermentation».- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Sorry to beat this thread to death, but I need to ask another question
that is related.

I just started another batch from concentrate. A 5 gallon batch from
concentrate.
I used Cabernet concentrate from WilliamsBrewing.com
What i found interesting is that on WilliamsBrewing's web site, it
claims to not need any acid as it is already acid balanced.
However, when i reconstitued the wine, I measured .25% TA.

I added 60g of Tartaric Acid to bring up to .6% TA.


Why would the maker of the concentrate say that .25% is "balanced" ?

On Mar 22, 11:52*am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
> On Mar 19, 10:00*pm, "frederick ploegman" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Wayne Harris" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > > In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
> > > the acid balance.
>
> > > Here is the story:
> > > I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
> > > has finished primary.
> > > Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
> > > that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
> > > the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
> > > In order to do this, I used the following formula:
>
> > > 4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise
>
> > > So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
> > > calculated the following:
>
> > > 5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
> > > 3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
> > > 71.75g/5gal=.35% rise
>
> > > I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to

"Wayne Harris" > wrote in message
...
On Mar 22, 11:52 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
> On Mar 19, 10:00 pm, "frederick ploegman" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Wayne Harris" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > > In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
> > > the acid balance.
>
> > > Here is the story:
> > > I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
> > > has finished primary.
> > > Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
> > > that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. I wanted to raise
> > > the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
> > > In order to do this, I used the following formula:
>
> > > 4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise
>
> > > So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
> > > calculated the following:
>
> > > 5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
> > > 3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
> > > 71.75g/5gal=.35% rise
>
> > > I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. It was up to .
> > > 4%
> > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
> > > I added another 20g.
>
> > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > I added another 20g.
>
> > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > I then added 40g.
>
> > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
> > > good
>
> > > Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
> > > Crap
> > > The taste is very tart. Go figure.
>
> > > So, what is the best way to add acid? Should I have waited longer
> > > before adding more? Does it take a while for the acid to fully
> > > dissolve?
>
> > > Where did I go wrong?
>
> > (Oct 2003)
>
> > Ed Goist once wrote:
>
> > «Throughout the fermentation of a grape-based wine, there is both an
> > increase in the Total Titratable Acidity resulting from fermentation,
> > and a decrease (precipitation) of some of the grape's natural fruit
> > acid (Tartaric).
>
> > The acids resulting from fermentation & the winemaking process account
> > for an increase in TA of approximately 2.0 - 2.5 g/l. This increase
> > is mostly the result of the formation of Succinic acid [0.5-1.25 g/l].
> > Succinic acid is the "acid of ethanol" & it is responsible for the
> > common sour taste shared by all alcoholic beverages. However, other
> > acids are formed as well during the fermentation, including: Lactic
> > [~0.3 g/l ], Phosphoric, Carbonic (from the formation of CO2),
> > Sulfurous (due to the pre-fermentation addition of SO2) & Acetic.
>
> > However, with a grape wine, this increase in "fermentation related"
> > acids is almost perfectly offset by an equal reduction in Tartaric
> > acid due to the precipitation of potassium bitartrate during & after
> > fermentation.
>
> > Note that this same increase in the TA during fermentation also occurs
> > with wines made from concentrate, as the process of concentration
> > removes almost all of the potassium bitartrate from the must prior to
> > fermentation».- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Sorry to beat this thread to death, but I need to ask another question
> that is related.
>
> I just started another batch from concentrate. A 5 gallon batch from
> concentrate.
> I used Cabernet concentrate from WilliamsBrewing.com
> What i found interesting is that on WilliamsBrewing's web site, it
> claims to not need any acid as it is already acid balanced.
> However, when i reconstitued the wine, I measured .25% TA.
>
> I added 60g of Tartaric Acid to bring up to .6% TA.
>
> Why would the maker of the concentrate say that .25% is "balanced" ?- Hide
> quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Never mind. I read my TA test backwards... jeez.
How embarrassing.

Huh ?? I was just about to explain this...........