On Mar 17, 5:32*pm, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> On Mar 17, 1:30*pm, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 17, 12:48*pm, pp > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 17, 7:06*am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 17, 5:33*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
> > > > > > > the acid balance.
>
> > > > > > > Here is the story:
> > > > > > > I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
> > > > > > > has finished primary.
> > > > > > > Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
> > > > > > > that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
> > > > > > > the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
> > > > > > > In order to do this, I used the following formula:
>
> > > > > > > 4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise
>
> > > > > > > So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
> > > > > > > calculated the following:
>
> > > > > > > 5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
> > > > > > > 3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
> > > > > > > 71.75g/5gal=.35% rise
>
> > > > > > > I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to .
> > > > > > > 4%
> > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
> > > > > > > I added another 20g.
>
> > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > > > I added another 20g.
>
> > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
> > > > > > > I then added *40g.
>
> > > > > > > After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
> > > > > > > good
>
> > > > > > > Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
> > > > > > > Crap
> > > > > > > The taste is very tart. Go figure.
>
> > > > > > > So, what is the best way to add acid? *Should I have waited longer
> > > > > > > before adding more? *Does it take a while for the acid to fully
> > > > > > > dissolve?
>
> > > > > > > Where did I go wrong?
>
> > > > > > Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
> > > > > > addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0.7% *After
> > > > > > adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
> > > > > > happy with that. *If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
> > > > > > waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
> > > > > > stir before measuring. *In my experience the apparent acid after a
> > > > > > decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
> > > > > > hours or even a day.
>
> > > > > > I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
> > > > > > more, especially so soon.
>
> > > > > > For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage athttp://web2..airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.htmlisan
> > > > > > excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
> > > > > > acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). *I don't carry the
> > > > > > maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
> > > > > > tool often to work out my wine details.
>
> > > > > > I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
> > > > > > that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
> > > > > > type of wine) the first time you make it. *Maybe adjust up and down
> > > > > > from there after tasting the finished wine. *Maybe just using the
> > > > > > information for the next batch. *That is my approach now in making
> > > > > > country wines. *Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
> > > > > > for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. *I am
> > > > > > starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
> > > > > > Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...
>
> > > > > > I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
> > > > > > all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
> > > > > > and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
> > > > > > required). *Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
> > > > > > forgiving level. *Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
> > > > > > fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
> > > > > > harm if it is done gently...
>
> > > > > > You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. *I did this for a
> > > > > > rhubarb wine and it worked very well. *It does require that you add
> > > > > > winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
> > > > > > amount.
>
> > > > > > Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
> > > > > > than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
> > > > > > it can't hurt...
>
> > > > > > Good luck, Jim
>
> > > > > Wow. * First off, kit wines are pre-balanced so the need to make a
> > > > > drastic change like that is questionable. *Use your taste buds as a
> > > > > tie breaker, always. *They are the best instrument you own.
>
> > > > > Next, never add that much acid. *I think you acid test kit is bad, the
> > > > > NAOH may be off. *You are literally measuring tartaric acid per given
> > > > > quantity, it sounds like you added way too much.
>
> > > > > That said, get the wine as cold as possible 28F is ideal. *That will
> > > > > pull excess tartaric out
>
> > > > > Please don't take this wrong, I'm not being critical. *All I'm saying
> > > > > is the real art in winemaking is knowing when to say no, you seem to
> > > > > have gotten too into getting the numbers right to stop and do a
> > > > > reality check on them.
>
> > > > > Don't give up, chill it.
>
> > > > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > I'm at a stage in my winemaking art that I want and NEED critical
> > > > feedback. *It is very very *much appreciated.
>
> > > > BTW, *i started this batch with a *couple of cans of concentrate, not
> > > > a kit.
> > > > To me, a kit is the juice/concentrate, chemicals, instructions
> > > > etc..
> > > > I just started with a couple of cans of concentrate.
>
> > > > OR, are cans of concentrate referred to as Kit wines too?
>
> > > > What I am going to to is to induce MLF. then test it again with paper
> > > > chromatography, and a TA test.
> > > > Then cold stabilize.
>
> > > > If that does not work, i will add a base like Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Couple of things: First, your calculations would be way easier if you
> > > switched to metric - 5 US gallons is 19L and using g/L instead of .x
> > > %, you have 3g/L and want to go to 7g/L, so just multiply 19 by 4 to
> > > get the total amount. Also, not sure where the 4.1 factor came from?
> > > TA is measured as tartaric acid, so what you add is what you get, i.e,
> > > you should need 3.8 g tartaric for 1g/L (0.1%) increase in 1gal.
>
> > > Second, you can't measure acid correctly on must from concentrate -
> > > they warn about this in kit making so the same things should apply to
> > > straight concentrate, probably even more. The concentration process
> > > binds some acids with other components in the must, and the bond only
> > > gets release during fermenation. So that's a big part of your problem.
>
> > > Pp- Hide quoted text -
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> > > - Show quoted text -
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> > I got the 4.1 factor from Jack Kellerhttp://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid.asp
> > "Most blends, however, are 40-40-20, and adding 3.9 grams of this
> > ratio blend will increase the acidity in a gallon of must
> > approximately 0.1%. This same increase can be achieved by adding to a
> > gallon of must 4.1 grams of tartaric acid or 3.7 grams of either malic
> > acid or citric acid."- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
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> Did you use acid blend or straight tartaric? * If tartaric, chilling
> will get rid of the excess.
>
> If acid blend, I'm not sure MLF will help and I personally wouldn't
> spend the money ofn a good culture for canned concentrate. *It can
> have an off taste depending on how it was made and how long it sat on
> the shelf. *More important, the malic acid in acid blend may not be
> affected by MLF.
>
> Yes, canned concentrate is still kit winemaking.
>
> Tell us what was used and we can go from there, another method of acid
> reduction that may help is the double salt method.
>
> Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I used straight tartaric acid.

Sunday. (3/16/08) I added the MLF culture to the wine.
I will check it with paper chromatography in week or so.
Should i see it doing anything? I see absolutly nothing going on.

Plan B: I will chill it.

Plan C: I will add a Calcium Carbonate.