Dear winemakers,
I need some advice on how to mature and
store wine in a
reasonably organic way.I have been growing enough grapes in the last
couple
of years to make about 5 gallons of wine each year.I live in
Herefordshire in
the U.K.,and have a south facing limestone site which seems to ripen
the
grapes by about mid October.The only spray I use is wettable sulphur
every
two weeks or so throughout the growing period.I pick the
grapes,discarding
any rotten ones,and wash them carefully.I then proceed to crush and
press
the white grapes immediately and leave the reds to ferment on the
skins for
four or five days before pressing them.Fermentation usually begins
within a
day or so,and I keep the juices under an airlock.The fermentation
usually
lasts about four to five weeks,and I then rack the wine off the lees
on a cold
day.At this stage the wine tastes very promising-very fruity and not
too sharp.
Indeed,it is very drinkable!

My problem comes when I leave the wine(in 1
gallon
demijohns)to mature for several months,and particularly with the
whites.The
wines seem to become much duller and lose their fruity taste and
aroma.
I keep the airlocks in the demijohns in this period in case of a
period of warmer
weather which could start off the fermentation again.
For example,a gallon of Schonberger (a full
flavoured white)
harvested in October 2006 fermented out by end of November 2006,tasted
extremely good until about May 2007.From then on the colour has
slightly
darkened,and the quality has gone to such an extent that the wine is
now
only just drinkable.
At all stages,I do not use metabisulphite
and am wondering
whether this is the problem.My wife seems sensitive to sulphites in
commercial
wine,so I am trying not to use them-hence the careful washing of the
grapes.
I have now read that organic winemakers are allowed to use a small
amount
of sulphite,but I do not know when it is added or how much.

Could someone please identify whether my
problem appears
to be lack of sulphites,and whether perhaps the dissolved oxygen in
the juice
at different handling stages is enough to cause the wine to
deteriorate,even
though the wine in an airlocked demijohn is basically closed to air.

Thanks,Michael

On Nov 20, 7:07 am, michael > wrote:
> Dear winemakers,
> I need some advice on how to mature and
> store wine in a
> reasonably organic way.I have been growing enough grapes in the last
> couple
> of years to make about 5 gallons of wine each year.I live in
> Herefordshire in
> the U.K.,and have a south facing limestone site which seems to ripen
> the
> grapes by about mid October.The only spray I use is wettable sulphur
> every
> two weeks or so throughout the growing period.I pick the
> grapes,discarding
> any rotten ones,and wash them carefully.I then proceed to crush and
> press
> the white grapes immediately and leave the reds to ferment on the
> skins for
> four or five days before pressing them.Fermentation usually begins
> within a
> day or so,and I keep the juices under an airlock.The fermentation
> usually
> lasts about four to five weeks,and I then rack the wine off the lees
> on a cold
> day.At this stage the wine tastes very promising-very fruity and not
> too sharp.
> Indeed,it is very drinkable!
>
> My problem comes when I leave the wine(in 1
> gallon
> demijohns)to mature for several months,and particularly with the
> whites.The
> wines seem to become much duller and lose their fruity taste and
> aroma.
> I keep the airlocks in the demijohns in this period in case of a
> period of warmer
> weather which could start off the fermentation again.
> For example,a gallon of Schonberger (a full
> flavoured white)
> harvested in October 2006 fermented out by end of November 2006,tasted
> extremely good until about May 2007.From then on the colour has
> slightly
> darkened,and the quality has gone to such an extent that the wine is
> now
> only just drinkable.
> At all stages,I do not use metabisulphite
> and am wondering
> whether this is the problem.My wife seems sensitive to sulphites in
> commercial
> wine,so I am trying not to use them-hence the careful washing of the
> grapes.
> I have now read that organic winemakers are allowed to use a small
> amount
> of sulphite,but I do not know when it is added or how much.
>
> Could someone please identify whether my
> problem appears
> to be lack of sulphites,and whether perhaps the dissolved oxygen in
> the juice
> at different handling stages is enough to cause the wine to
> deteriorate,even
> though the wine in an airlocked demijohn is basically closed to air.
>
> Thanks,Michael

Michael,
It's probably a combination of both. You use sulfur sprays so your
wine probably contains small quantities of sulfite anyway. If you
want to avoid it's use be very careful when racking to avoid splashing
of any kind; insert your racking drain all the way into the receiving
container and let it fill gently with no splashing. Try to limit
your racking to one or two before bottling. Some prefill containers
or bottles with CO2 to avoid oxygenation also.

I use sulfite in small amounts. 1/8 teaspoon of pot meta per 5 gallon
US is usually enough to protect a wine.

One thought might be to split your batches and sulfite one and not
sulfite the other to see how it fares; you would be able to see how it
affects your wife also without risking the whole batch.

Joe

On 20 Nov, 13:18, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> On Nov 20, 7:07 am, michael > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dear winemakers,
> > I need some advice on how to mature and
> > store wine in a
> > reasonably organic way.I have been growing enough grapes in the last
> > couple
> > of years to make about 5 gallons of wine each year.I live in
> > Herefordshire in
> > the U.K.,and have a south facing limestone site which seems to ripen
> > the
> > grapes by about mid October.The only spray I use is wettable sulphur
> > every
> > two weeks or so throughout the growing period.I pick the
> > grapes,discarding
> > any rotten ones,and wash them carefully.I then proceed to crush and
> > press
> > the white grapes immediately and leave the reds to ferment on the
> > skins for
> > four or five days before pressing them.Fermentation usually begins
> > within a
> > day or so,and I keep the juices under an airlock.The fermentation
> > usually
> > lasts about four to five weeks,and I then rack the wine off the lees
> > on a cold
> > day.At this stage the wine tastes very promising-very fruity and not
> > too sharp.
> > Indeed,it is very drinkable!
>
> > My problem comes when I leave the wine(in 1
> > gallon
> > demijohns)to mature for several months,and particularly with the
> > whites.The
> > wines seem to become much duller and lose their fruity taste and
> > aroma.
> > I keep the airlocks in the demijohns in this period in case of a
> > period of warmer
> > weather which could start off the fermentation again.
> > For example,a gallon of Schonberger (a full
> > flavoured white)
> > harvested in October 2006 fermented out by end of November 2006,tasted
> > extremely good until about May 2007.From then on the colour has
> > slightly
> > darkened,and the quality has gone to such an extent that the wine is
> > now
> > only just drinkable.
> > At all stages,I do not use metabisulphite
> > and am wondering
> > whether this is the problem.My wife seems sensitive to sulphites in
> > commercial
> > wine,so I am trying not to use them-hence the careful washing of the
> > grapes.
> > I have now read that organic winemakers are allowed to use a small
> > amount
> > of sulphite,but I do not know when it is added or how much.
>
> > Could someone please identify whether my
> > problem appears
> > to be lack of sulphites,and whether perhaps the dissolved oxygen in
> > the juice
> > at different handling stages is enough to cause the wine to
> > deteriorate,even
> > though the wine in an airlocked demijohn is basically closed to air.
>
> > Thanks,Michael
>
> Michael,
> It's probably a combination of both. You use sulfur sprays so your
> wine probably contains small quantities of sulfite anyway. If you
> want to avoid it's use be very careful when racking to avoid splashing
> of any kind; insert your racking drain all the way into the receiving
> container and let it fill gently with no splashing. Try to limit
> your racking to one or two before bottling. Some prefill containers
> or bottles with CO2 to avoid oxygenation also.
>
> I use sulfite in small amounts. 1/8 teaspoon of pot meta per 5 gallon
> US is usually enough to protect a wine.
>
> One thought might be to split your batches and sulfite one and not
> sulfite the other to see how it fares; you would be able to see how it
> affects your wife also without risking the whole batch.
>
> Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks for your reply Joe.One further query.I do not normally put my
wine into 75cl bottles at any stage,but keep it in a gallon demijohn
and put it into carafes for fairly immediate consumption during the
following week.I have bottled occasionally to give wine to one of my
children,but the bottling then takes place when the wine is quite
young.My query now is how to keep wine in a 1 gallon demijohn nice and
fresh,and perhaps I will have to use sulphites at some level.What I do
not understand is why wine maturing in oak barrels for some years
seems to age well without oxidation-is it to do with the large volume
of wine barrels compared with my smaller but impervious glass
vessels.The problem I am having does not yet seem to affect my red
wines,which have higher acidity.Do you also know how much sulphite is
allow for organic wine makers?Thanks again.Michael

On Nov 20, 8:51 am, michael > wrote:
> On 20 Nov, 13:18, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 20, 7:07 am, michael > wrote:
>
> > > Dear winemakers,
> > > I need some advice on how to mature and
> > > store wine in a
> > > reasonably organic way.I have been growing enough grapes in the last
> > > couple
> > > of years to make about 5 gallons of wine each year.I live in
> > > Herefordshire in
> > > the U.K.,and have a south facing limestone site which seems to ripen
> > > the
> > > grapes by about mid October.The only spray I use is wettable sulphur
> > > every
> > > two weeks or so throughout the growing period.I pick the
> > > grapes,discarding
> > > any rotten ones,and wash them carefully.I then proceed to crush and
> > > press
> > > the white grapes immediately and leave the reds to ferment on the
> > > skins for
> > > four or five days before pressing them.Fermentation usually begins
> > > within a
> > > day or so,and I keep the juices under an airlock.The fermentation
> > > usually
> > > lasts about four to five weeks,and I then rack the wine off the lees
> > > on a cold
> > > day.At this stage the wine tastes very promising-very fruity and not
> > > too sharp.
> > > Indeed,it is very drinkable!
>
> > > My problem comes when I leave the wine(in 1
> > > gallon
> > > demijohns)to mature for several months,and particularly with the
> > > whites.The
> > > wines seem to become much duller and lose their fruity taste and
> > > aroma.
> > > I keep the airlocks in the demijohns in this period in case of a
> > > period of warmer
> > > weather which could start off the fermentation again.
> > > For example,a gallon of Schonberger (a full
> > > flavoured white)
> > > harvested in October 2006 fermented out by end of November 2006,tasted
> > > extremely good until about May 2007.From then on the colour has
> > > slightly
> > > darkened,and the quality has gone to such an extent that the wine is
> > > now
> > > only just drinkable.
> > > At all stages,I do not use metabisulphite
> > > and am wondering
> > > whether this is the problem.My wife seems sensitive to sulphites in
> > > commercial
> > > wine,so I am trying not to use them-hence the careful washing of the
> > > grapes.
> > > I have now read that organic winemakers are allowed to use a small
> > > amount
> > > of sulphite,but I do not know when it is added or how much.
>
> > > Could someone please identify whether my
> > > problem appears
> > > to be lack of sulphites,and whether perhaps the dissolved oxygen in
> > > the juice
> > > at different handling stages is enough to cause the wine to
> > > deteriorate,even
> > > though the wine in an airlocked demijohn is basically closed to air.
>
> > > Thanks,Michael
>
> > Michael,
> > It's probably a combination of both. You use sulfur sprays so your
> > wine probably contains small quantities of sulfite anyway. If you
> > want to avoid it's use be very careful when racking to avoid splashing
> > of any kind; insert your racking drain all the way into the receiving
> > container and let it fill gently with no splashing. Try to limit
> > your racking to one or two before bottling. Some prefill containers
> > or bottles with CO2 to avoid oxygenation also.
>
> > I use sulfite in small amounts. 1/8 teaspoon of pot meta per 5 gallon
> > US is usually enough to protect a wine.
>
> > One thought might be to split your batches and sulfite one and not
> > sulfite the other to see how it fares; you would be able to see how it
> > affects your wife also without risking the whole batch.
>
> > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Thanks for your reply Joe.One further query.I do not normally put my
> wine into 75cl bottles at any stage,but keep it in a gallon demijohn
> and put it into carafes for fairly immediate consumption during the
> following week.I have bottled occasionally to give wine to one of my
> children,but the bottling then takes place when the wine is quite
> young.My query now is how to keep wine in a 1 gallon demijohn nice and
> fresh,and perhaps I will have to use sulphites at some level.What I do
> not understand is why wine maturing in oak barrels for some years
> seems to age well without oxidation-is it to do with the large volume
> of wine barrels compared with my smaller but impervious glass
> vessels.The problem I am having does not yet seem to affect my red
> wines,which have higher acidity.Do you also know how much sulphite is
> allow for organic wine makers?Thanks again.Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The wine in barrels is sulfited so yuo're talking about a different
situation. The larger volume does play into this in some extent
because with larger containers, the airspace between the bung and wine
is relatively smaller.

Red wines have tannin and other phenols that act as natural anti-
oxidants, so the fact yuor red wines are faring okay is another
indication that your problem is oxidation. You should really make sure
whether what affects your wife are really sulfites - often people
think so but the real culprit are amines in wines. Commercially dried
fruit usually contains much more sulfite than wine so if she can eat
it without issues, that's a good negative test.

Yeasts produce some SO2 during fermentation so no wine is free of
sulfites. I don't know the number for "organic" wine makers and
wouldn't really worry about it in your situation as you're not making
the wine for sale. as Joe said, minimize the sulfite and rack
carefully. If your wines are dry, one other thing I'd do is replace
the airlock with a solid bung - airlcoks might not be airtight and in
smaller containers the wine could oxidize quickly in that situation.

Pp

On Nov 20, 11:51 am, michael > wrote:
> On 20 Nov, 13:18, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 20, 7:07 am, michael > wrote:
>
> > > Dear winemakers,
> > > I need some advice on how to mature and
> > > store wine in a
> > > reasonably organic way.I have been growing enough grapes in the last
> > > couple
> > > of years to make about 5 gallons of wine each year.I live in
> > > Herefordshire in
> > > the U.K.,and have a south facing limestone site which seems to ripen
> > > the
> > > grapes by about mid October.The only spray I use is wettable sulphur
> > > every
> > > two weeks or so throughout the growing period.I pick the
> > > grapes,discarding
> > > any rotten ones,and wash them carefully.I then proceed to crush and
> > > press
> > > the white grapes immediately and leave the reds to ferment on the
> > > skins for
> > > four or five days before pressing them.Fermentation usually begins
> > > within a
> > > day or so,and I keep the juices under an airlock.The fermentation
> > > usually
> > > lasts about four to five weeks,and I then rack the wine off the lees
> > > on a cold
> > > day.At this stage the wine tastes very promising-very fruity and not
> > > too sharp.
> > > Indeed,it is very drinkable!
>
> > > My problem comes when I leave the wine(in 1
> > > gallon
> > > demijohns)to mature for several months,and particularly with the
> > > whites.The
> > > wines seem to become much duller and lose their fruity taste and
> > > aroma.
> > > I keep the airlocks in the demijohns in this period in case of a
> > > period of warmer
> > > weather which could start off the fermentation again.
> > > For example,a gallon of Schonberger (a full
> > > flavoured white)
> > > harvested in October 2006 fermented out by end of November 2006,tasted
> > > extremely good until about May 2007.From then on the colour has
> > > slightly
> > > darkened,and the quality has gone to such an extent that the wine is
> > > now
> > > only just drinkable.
> > > At all stages,I do not use metabisulphite
> > > and am wondering
> > > whether this is the problem.My wife seems sensitive to sulphites in
> > > commercial
> > > wine,so I am trying not to use them-hence the careful washing of the
> > > grapes.
> > > I have now read that organic winemakers are allowed to use a small
> > > amount
> > > of sulphite,but I do not know when it is added or how much.
>
> > > Could someone please identify whether my
> > > problem appears
> > > to be lack of sulphites,and whether perhaps the dissolved oxygen in
> > > the juice
> > > at different handling stages is enough to cause the wine to
> > > deteriorate,even
> > > though the wine in an airlocked demijohn is basically closed to air.
>
> > > Thanks,Michael
>
> > Michael,
> > It's probably a combination of both. You use sulfur sprays so your
> > wine probably contains small quantities of sulfite anyway. If you
> > want to avoid it's use be very careful when racking to avoid splashing
> > of any kind; insert your racking drain all the way into the receiving
> > container and let it fill gently with no splashing. Try to limit
> > your racking to one or two before bottling. Some prefill containers
> > or bottles with CO2 to avoid oxygenation also.
>
> > I use sulfite in small amounts. 1/8 teaspoon of pot meta per 5 gallon
> > US is usually enough to protect a wine.
>
> > One thought might be to split your batches and sulfite one and not
> > sulfite the other to see how it fares; you would be able to see how it
> > affects your wife also without risking the whole batch.
>
> > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Thanks for your reply Joe.One further query.I do not normally put my
> wine into 75cl bottles at any stage,but keep it in a gallon demijohn
> and put it into carafes for fairly immediate consumption during the
> following week.I have bottled occasionally to give wine to one of my
> children,but the bottling then takes place when the wine is quite
> young.My query now is how to keep wine in a 1 gallon demijohn nice and
> fresh,and perhaps I will have to use sulphites at some level.What I do
> not understand is why wine maturing in oak barrels for some years
> seems to age well without oxidation-is it to do with the large volume
> of wine barrels compared with my smaller but impervious glass
> vessels.The problem I am having does not yet seem to affect my red
> wines,which have higher acidity.Do you also know how much sulphite is
> allow for organic wine makers?Thanks again.Michael

My wife doesn't like sulfites either so here is a link to explain the
rules in the States; I'm not sure about other countries.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/Organic/OrganicWine.cfm

Oak barrels are sealed and most wine stored in them is sulfited. As
to the gallon jugs, you may want o to break them up into 750 ml
bottles once you tap into one, filling them completely and using T top
stopper. (Tasting corks).

An old world way to minimize oxidation was to pour olive oil on top of
the wine to act as a seal. That is how my grandfather did it.

Higher acid usually means lower pH; the lower the pH the less sulfite
you need to protect wine; 0.8 ppm molecular is the commonly accepted
value for protection. That might be why your reds keep better.

If you decide to use sulfites we can explain that in more depth or
just google sulfites in this group.

Joe

Joe Sallustio wrote:
> On Nov 20, 7:07 am, michael > wrote:
>> Dear winemakers,
>> I need some advice on how to mature and
>> store wine in a
>> reasonably organic way.I have been growing enough grapes in the last
>> couple
>> of years to make about 5 gallons of wine each year.I live in
>> Herefordshire in
>> the U.K.,and have a south facing limestone site which seems to ripen
>> the
>> grapes by about mid October.The only spray I use is wettable sulphur
>> every
>> two weeks or so throughout the growing period.I pick the
>> grapes,discarding
>> any rotten ones,and wash them carefully.I then proceed to crush and
>> press
>> the white grapes immediately and leave the reds to ferment on the
>> skins for
>> four or five days before pressing them.Fermentation usually begins
>> within a
>> day or so,and I keep the juices under an airlock.The fermentation
>> usually
>> lasts about four to five weeks,and I then rack the wine off the lees
>> on a cold
>> day.At this stage the wine tastes very promising-very fruity and not
>> too sharp.
>> Indeed,it is very drinkable!
>>
>> My problem comes when I leave the wine(in 1
>> gallon
>> demijohns)to mature for several months,and particularly with the
>> whites.The
>> wines seem to become much duller and lose their fruity taste and
>> aroma.
>> I keep the airlocks in the demijohns in this period in case of a
>> period of warmer
>> weather which could start off the fermentation again.
>> For example,a gallon of Schonberger (a full
>> flavoured white)
>> harvested in October 2006 fermented out by end of November 2006,tasted
>> extremely good until about May 2007.From then on the colour has
>> slightly
>> darkened,and the quality has gone to such an extent that the wine is
>> now
>> only just drinkable.
>> At all stages,I do not use metabisulphite
>> and am wondering
>> whether this is the problem.My wife seems sensitive to sulphites in
>> commercial
>> wine,so I am trying not to use them-hence the careful washing of the
>> grapes.
>> I have now read that organic winemakers are allowed to use a small
>> amount
>> of sulphite,but I do not know when it is added or how much.
>>
>> Could someone please identify whether my
>> problem appears
>> to be lack of sulphites,and whether perhaps the dissolved oxygen in
>> the juice
>> at different handling stages is enough to cause the wine to
>> deteriorate,even
>> though the wine in an airlocked demijohn is basically closed to air.
>>
>> Thanks,Michael
>
> Michael,
> It's probably a combination of both. You use sulfur sprays so your
> wine probably contains small quantities of sulfite anyway. If you
> want to avoid it's use be very careful when racking to avoid splashing
> of any kind; insert your racking drain all the way into the receiving
> container and let it fill gently with no splashing. Try to limit
> your racking to one or two before bottling. Some prefill containers
> or bottles with CO2 to avoid oxygenation also.
>
> I use sulfite in small amounts. 1/8 teaspoon of pot meta per 5 gallon
> US is usually enough to protect a wine.
>
> One thought might be to split your batches and sulfite one and not
> sulfite the other to see how it fares; you would be able to see how it
> affects your wife also without risking the whole batch.
>
> Joe

Excellent advice from Joe.

The steadiness of the temperature of the stored wine is also VERY
important. Temperature changes cause the wine to expand and contract.
Small amounts of air get sucked through the airlock each time the wine
contracts more than the 'locking volume' of the airlock. A friend of
mine ruined his chardonnay by storing the airlocked carboy in his garage
over the summer. The day-night temperature cycling was too much, even
for his sulfited wine.

I'd definitely recommend pre-filling the racking container with CO2 (or
nitrogen or argon) gas for unsulfited white wines. Even the most
careful 'ungassed' racking saturates the wine with oxygen, and the only
way for the wine to bind that oxygen is by oxidation (sulfite protects
the wine by oxidizing much more rapidly than the wine itself;
non-sulfited wines do not have this protection).
The general rule of thumb for gassing a container is to flush with a
minimum of three volumes of gas. This will displace about 95 percent of
the air. Put the flushing hose end all the way to the bottom of the
container and flush slowly (gas flow rate less than 1/2 gallon per
minute). This maximizes the displacement efficiency by minimizing the
gas mixing in the container. An interesting article on tank flushing
with gas is at http://www.vinovation.com/ArticleArgon2.htm

Another easy way to accomplish vessel flushing is to use a chunk of dry
ice, at a rate of at least 6 grams dry ice per liter of vessel volume (1
ounce by weight per gallon). Dry ice sublimates slowly enough to give
'laminar displacement', i.e. minimum mixing.

I'd even consider going a step further when racking unsulfited white
wine, with blanketing the source container headspace while emptying;
this minimizes the amount of air sucked into the emptying container.
The flow rate of CO2/nitrogen/argon gas would be the same or slightly
higher than the liquid emptying rate.

While some may consider these measures to be overkill, if fruity
freshness of your unsulfited white wine is important, it's worth the effort.

Gene

On 20 Nov, 18:12, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> On Nov 20, 11:51 am, michael > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 20 Nov, 13:18, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 20, 7:07 am, michael > wrote:
>
> > > > Dear winemakers,
> > > > I need some advice on how to mature and
> > > > store wine in a
> > > > reasonably organic way.I have been growing enough grapes in the last
> > > > couple
> > > > of years to make about 5 gallons of wine each year.I live in
> > > > Herefordshire in
> > > > the U.K.,and have a south facing limestone site which seems to ripen
> > > > the
> > > > grapes by about mid October.The only spray I use is wettable sulphur
> > > > every
> > > > two weeks or so throughout the growing period.I pick the
> > > > grapes,discarding
> > > > any rotten ones,and wash them carefully.I then proceed to crush and
> > > > press
> > > > the white grapes immediately and leave the reds to ferment on the
> > > > skins for
> > > > four or five days before pressing them.Fermentation usually begins
> > > > within a
> > > > day or so,and I keep the juices under an airlock.The fermentation
> > > > usually
> > > > lasts about four to five weeks,and I then rack the wine off the lees
> > > > on a cold
> > > > day.At this stage the wine tastes very promising-very fruity and not
> > > > too sharp.
> > > > Indeed,it is very drinkable!
>
> > > > My problem comes when I leave the wine(in 1
> > > > gallon
> > > > demijohns)to mature for several months,and particularly with the
> > > > whites.The
> > > > wines seem to become much duller and lose their fruity taste and
> > > > aroma.
> > > > I keep the airlocks in the demijohns in this period in case of a
> > > > period of warmer
> > > > weather which could start off the fermentation again.
> > > > For example,a gallon of Schonberger (a full
> > > > flavoured white)
> > > > harvested in October 2006 fermented out by end of November 2006,tasted
> > > > extremely good until about May 2007.From then on the colour has
> > > > slightly
> > > > darkened,and the quality has gone to such an extent that the wine is
> > > > now
> > > > only just drinkable.
> > > > At all stages,I do not use metabisulphite
> > > > and am wondering
> > > > whether this is the problem.My wife seems sensitive to sulphites in
> > > > commercial
> > > > wine,so I am trying not to use them-hence the careful washing of the
> > > > grapes.
> > > > I have now read that organic winemakers are allowed to use a small
> > > > amount
> > > > of sulphite,but I do not know when it is added or how much.
>
> > > > Could someone please identify whether my
> > > > problem appears
> > > > to be lack of sulphites,and whether perhaps the dissolved oxygen in
> > > > the juice
> > > > at different handling stages is enough to cause the wine to
> > > > deteriorate,even
> > > > though the wine in an airlocked demijohn is basically closed to air.
>
> > > > Thanks,Michael
>
> > > Michael,
> > > It's probably a combination of both. You use sulfur sprays so your
> > > wine probably contains small quantities of sulfite anyway. If you
> > > want to avoid it's use be very careful when racking to avoid splashing
> > > of any kind; insert your racking drain all the way into the receiving
> > > container and let it fill gently with no splashing. Try to limit
> > > your racking to one or two before bottling. Some prefill containers
> > > or bottles with CO2 to avoid oxygenation also.
>
> > > I use sulfite in small amounts. 1/8 teaspoon of pot meta per 5 gallon
> > > US is usually enough to protect a wine.
>
> > > One thought might be to split your batches and sulfite one and not
> > > sulfite the other to see how it fares; you would be able to see how it
> > > affects your wife also without risking the whole batch.
>
> > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Thanks for your reply Joe.One further query.I do not normally put my
> > wine into 75cl bottles at any stage,but keep it in a gallon demijohn
> > and put it into carafes for fairly immediate consumption during the
> > following week.I have bottled occasionally to give wine to one of my
> > children,but the bottling then takes place when the wine is quite
> > young.My query now is how to keep wine in a 1 gallon demijohn nice and
> > fresh,and perhaps I will have to use sulphites at some level.What I do
> > not understand is why wine maturing in oak barrels for some years
> > seems to age well without oxidation-is it to do with the large volume
> > of wine barrels compared with my smaller but impervious glass
> > vessels.The problem I am having does not yet seem to affect my red
> > wines,which have higher acidity.Do you also know how much sulphite is
> > allow for organic wine makers?Thanks again.Michael
>
> My wife doesn't like sulfites either so here is a link to explain the
> rules in the States; I'm not sure about other countries.
>
> http://www.organicconsumers.org/Organic/OrganicWine.cfm
>
> Oak barrels are sealed and most wine stored in them is sulfited. As
> to the gallon jugs, you may want o to break them up into 750 ml
> bottles once you tap into one, filling them completely and using T top
> stopper. (Tasting corks).
>
> An old world way to minimize oxidation was to pour olive oil on top of
> the wine to act as a seal. That is how my grandfather did it.
>
> Higher acid usually means lower pH; the lower the pH the less sulfite
> you need to protect wine; 0.8 ppm molecular is the commonly accepted
> value for protection. That might be why your reds keep better.
>
> If you decide to use sulfites we can explain that in more depth or
> just google sulfites in this group.
>
> Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks for all of the replies,which have been most informative.I think
that I have decided to use small additions of sulphite,since the
keeping of the wine under CO2 does seem rather tricky.I also make
fairly large volumes of cider(about 8% alcohol) and have had similar
problems of oxidation of the cider when I try to keep it longer than
one year.With the cider I will be racking off several 5 gallon
fermenters during the season,and the thought of using a gas blanket
during each transferance is not very appealing.I make about 120
gallons of cider and 10 gallons of wine for my family's and friends
consumption.The cider is generally very good until the longest kept
volumes,and I had been considering using sulphites for these last
batches.I was hoping that my wine would be used for special
occasions,but at the moment the cider is much better.The grape juice
does seem to be of good quality,even though I am aware that the grapes
are grown in the UK.I have about 30 vines,which are common European
hybrids and ripen the fruit(and wood) very well.I usually pick the
grapes at a Brix level about 18,and at this level the acid levels are
very manageable.Some of these varieties of grape regularly win top
prizes at European blind tastings,so I am confident that my grape
juice is excellent.In my first year,my first attempts were very
good,but the wine was drunk around May,just 8 months after
harvest.Since then I have been keeping the wine longer than 12
months,and this is where the problem has arisen,and particularly for
the whites.As I indicated in my earlier mail,I wash the grapes and
ferment the grapes with the natural yeasts without any addition of
sulphites.So I really wish to produce very good quality (I am even
considering reducing grape yield in the future to improve juice
quality)wine,which retains its fresh and fruity characteristics until
drunk.The climate in southern England is variable from one year to the
next,although climate change is giving us higher temperatures than 30
years ago,and it is necessary to store wine(and cider ) for more than
a year to cope with this.So I think that I will add up to 50 ppm of
sulphite (10g/100ml gives a 5% solution and 5ml/gallon of wine gives
50ppm ?)using sodium metabisulphite,but I am still not clear when to
add this.As I understand it,the primary fermentation takes 4-6
weeks,and the secondary malolactic fermentation about twice as long.I
read that sulphite in the wine at some level inhibits malolactic
fermentation,which could be a disadvantage for me since in a cool
season when the juice is more acidic,this secondary fermentation is
valuable in reducing acidity.Malolactic fermentation needs a higher
temperature to get started,and my storage area is typically 45-50F
until the April/May .So there is a conflict in waiting too long for
the secondary fermentation to be completed,such that oxidation sets
in.I am therefore thinking of adding 50ppm sulphite to my wines (and
cider) around the end of April,which is about 6 months after harvest.I
hope that my understanding is beginning to get up to speed,but I would
very much welcome further comments about whether what I am suggesting
really will maintain the quality of my juice.Thanks again,Michael

On Nov 22, 7:02 am, michael > wrote:
> On 20 Nov, 18:12, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 20, 11:51 am, michael > wrote:
>
> > > On 20 Nov, 13:18, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
> > > > On Nov 20, 7:07 am, michael > wrote:
>
> > > > > Dear winemakers,
> > > > > I need some advice on how to mature and
> > > > > store wine in a
> > > > > reasonably organic way.I have been growing enough grapes in the last
> > > > > couple
> > > > > of years to make about 5 gallons of wine each year.I live in
> > > > > Herefordshire in
> > > > > the U.K.,and have a south facing limestone site which seems to ripen
> > > > > the
> > > > > grapes by about mid October.The only spray I use is wettable sulphur
> > > > > every
> > > > > two weeks or so throughout the growing period.I pick the
> > > > > grapes,discarding
> > > > > any rotten ones,and wash them carefully.I then proceed to crush and
> > > > > press
> > > > > the white grapes immediately and leave the reds to ferment on the
> > > > > skins for
> > > > > four or five days before pressing them.Fermentation usually begins
> > > > > within a
> > > > > day or so,and I keep the juices under an airlock.The fermentation
> > > > > usually
> > > > > lasts about four to five weeks,and I then rack the wine off the lees
> > > > > on a cold
> > > > > day.At this stage the wine tastes very promising-very fruity and not
> > > > > too sharp.
> > > > > Indeed,it is very drinkable!
>
> > > > > My problem comes when I leave the wine(in 1
> > > > > gallon
> > > > > demijohns)to mature for several months,and particularly with the
> > > > > whites.The
> > > > > wines seem to become much duller and lose their fruity taste and
> > > > > aroma.
> > > > > I keep the airlocks in the demijohns in this period in case of a
> > > > > period of warmer
> > > > > weather which could start off the fermentation again.
> > > > > For example,a gallon of Schonberger (a full
> > > > > flavoured white)
> > > > > harvested in October 2006 fermented out by end of November 2006,tasted
> > > > > extremely good until about May 2007.From then on the colour has
> > > > > slightly
> > > > > darkened,and the quality has gone to such an extent that the wine is
> > > > > now
> > > > > only just drinkable.
> > > > > At all stages,I do not use metabisulphite
> > > > > and am wondering
> > > > > whether this is the problem.My wife seems sensitive to sulphites in
> > > > > commercial
> > > > > wine,so I am trying not to use them-hence the careful washing of the
> > > > > grapes.
> > > > > I have now read that organic winemakers are allowed to use a small
> > > > > amount
> > > > > of sulphite,but I do not know when it is added or how much.
>
> > > > > Could someone please identify whether my
> > > > > problem appears
> > > > > to be lack of sulphites,and whether perhaps the dissolved oxygen in
> > > > > the juice
> > > > > at different handling stages is enough to cause the wine to
> > > > > deteriorate,even
> > > > > though the wine in an airlocked demijohn is basically closed to air.
>
> > > > > Thanks,Michael
>
> > > > Michael,
> > > > It's probably a combination of both. You use sulfur sprays so your
> > > > wine probably contains small quantities of sulfite anyway. If you
> > > > want to avoid it's use be very careful when racking to avoid splashing
> > > > of any kind; insert your racking drain all the way into the receiving
> > > > container and let it fill gently with no splashing. Try to limit
> > > > your racking to one or two before bottling. Some prefill containers
> > > > or bottles with CO2 to avoid oxygenation also.
>
> > > > I use sulfite in small amounts. 1/8 teaspoon of pot meta per 5 gallon
> > > > US is usually enough to protect a wine.
>
> > > > One thought might be to split your batches and sulfite one and not
> > > > sulfite the other to see how it fares; you would be able to see how it
> > > > affects your wife also without risking the whole batch.
>
> > > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Thanks for your reply Joe.One further query.I do not normally put my
> > > wine into 75cl bottles at any stage,but keep it in a gallon demijohn
> > > and put it into carafes for fairly immediate consumption during the
> > > following week.I have bottled occasionally to give wine to one of my
> > > children,but the bottling then takes place when the wine is quite
> > > young.My query now is how to keep wine in a 1 gallon demijohn nice and
> > > fresh,and perhaps I will have to use sulphites at some level.What I do
> > > not understand is why wine maturing in oak barrels for some years
> > > seems to age well without oxidation-is it to do with the large volume
> > > of wine barrels compared with my smaller but impervious glass
> > > vessels.The problem I am having does not yet seem to affect my red
> > > wines,which have higher acidity.Do you also know how much sulphite is
> > > allow for organic wine makers?Thanks again.Michael
>
> > My wife doesn't like sulfites either so here is a link to explain the
> > rules in the States; I'm not sure about other countries.
>
> >http://www.organicconsumers.org/Organic/OrganicWine.cfm
>
> > Oak barrels are sealed and most wine stored in them is sulfited. As
> > to the gallon jugs, you may want o to break them up into 750 ml
> > bottles once you tap into one, filling them completely and using T top
> > stopper. (Tasting corks).
>
> > An old world way to minimize oxidation was to pour olive oil on top of
> > the wine to act as a seal. That is how my grandfather did it.
>
> > Higher acid usually means lower pH; the lower the pH the less sulfite
> > you need to protect wine; 0.8 ppm molecular is the commonly accepted
> > value for protection. That might be why your reds keep better.
>
> > If you decide to use sulfites we can explain that in more depth or
> > just google sulfites in this group.
>
> > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Thanks for all of the replies,which have been most informative.I think
> that I have decided to use small additions of sulphite,since the
> keeping of the wine under CO2 does seem rather tricky.I also make
> fairly large volumes of cider(about 8% alcohol) and have had similar
> problems of oxidation of the cider when I try to keep it longer than
> one year.With the cider I will be racking off several 5 gallon
> fermenters during the season,and the thought of using a gas blanket
> during each transferance is not very appealing.I make about 120
> gallons of cider and 10 gallons of wine for my family's and friends
> consumption.The cider is generally very good until the longest kept
> volumes,and I had been considering using sulphites for these last
> batches.I was hoping that my wine would be used for special
> occasions,but at the moment the cider is much better.The grape juice
> does seem to be of good quality,even though I am aware that the grapes
> are grown in the UK.I have about 30 vines,which are common European
> hybrids and ripen the fruit(and wood) very well.I usually pick the
> grapes at a Brix level about 18,and at this level the acid levels are
> very manageable.Some of these varieties of grape regularly win top
> prizes at European blind tastings,so I am confident that my grape
> juice is excellent.In my first year,my first attempts were very
> good,but the wine was drunk around May,just 8 months after
> harvest.Since then I have been keeping the wine longer than 12
> months,and this is where the problem has arisen,and particularly for
> the whites.As I indicated in my earlier mail,I wash the grapes and
> ferment the grapes with the natural yeasts without any addition of
> sulphites.So I really wish to produce very good quality (I am even
> considering reducing grape yield in the future to improve juice
> quality)wine,which retains its fresh and fruity characteristics until
> drunk.The climate in southern England is variable from one year to the
> next,although climate change is giving us higher temperatures than 30
> years ago,and it is necessary to store wine(and cider ) for more than
> a year to cope with this.So I think that I will add up to 50 ppm of
> sulphite (10g/100ml gives a 5% solution and 5ml/gallon of wine gives
> 50ppm ?)using sodium metabisulphite,but I am still not clear when to
> add this.As I understand it,the primary fermentation takes 4-6
> weeks,and the secondary malolactic fermentation about twice as long.I
> read that sulphite in the wine at some level inhibits malolactic
> fermentation,which could be a disadvantage for me since in a cool
> season when the juice is more acidic,this secondary fermentation is
> valuable in reducing acidity.Malolactic fermentation needs a higher
> temperature to get started,and my storage area is typically 45-50F
> until the April/May .So there is a conflict in waiting too long for
> the secondary fermentation to be completed,such that oxidation sets
> in.I am therefore thinking of adding 50ppm sulphite to my wines (and
> cider) around the end of April,which is about 6 months after harvest.I
> hope that my understanding is beginning to get up to speed,but I would
> very much welcome further comments about whether what I am suggesting
> really will maintain the quality of my juice.Thanks again,Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

First a question - are you sure your wines go through ML fermentation?
The bacteria don't like low pH, and it sounds like your pH might be
pretty low, given you pick your grapes at 18B - any chance you could
let them hang longer to get higher sugar?

For sulfite additions calculation, I'd recommend one of the online
calculators, for ex.:
http://www.fermsoft.com/sulphtable.php
Your number looks too high based on the data that you get there.

Otherwise yes, the sulfite goes in after MLF if you're doing that.

Pp

On 22 Nov, 19:25, pp > wrote:
> On Nov 22, 7:02 am, michael > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 20 Nov, 18:12, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 20, 11:51 am, michael > wrote:
>
> > > > On 20 Nov, 13:18, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Nov 20, 7:07 am, michael > wrote:
>
> > > > > > Dear winemakers,
> > > > > > I need some advice on how to mature and
> > > > > > store wine in a
> > > > > > reasonably organic way.I have been growing enough grapes in the last
> > > > > > couple
> > > > > > of years to make about 5 gallons of wine each year.I live in
> > > > > > Herefordshire in
> > > > > > the U.K.,and have a south facing limestone site which seems to ripen
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > grapes by about mid October.The only spray I use is wettable sulphur
> > > > > > every
> > > > > > two weeks or so throughout the growing period.I pick the
> > > > > > grapes,discarding
> > > > > > any rotten ones,and wash them carefully.I then proceed to crush and
> > > > > > press
> > > > > > the white grapes immediately and leave the reds to ferment on the
> > > > > > skins for
> > > > > > four or five days before pressing them.Fermentation usually begins
> > > > > > within a
> > > > > > day or so,and I keep the juices under an airlock.The fermentation
> > > > > > usually
> > > > > > lasts about four to five weeks,and I then rack the wine off the lees
> > > > > > on a cold
> > > > > > day.At this stage the wine tastes very promising-very fruity and not
> > > > > > too sharp.
> > > > > > Indeed,it is very drinkable!
>
> > > > > > My problem comes when I leave the wine(in 1
> > > > > > gallon
> > > > > > demijohns)to mature for several months,and particularly with the
> > > > > > whites.The
> > > > > > wines seem to become much duller and lose their fruity taste and
> > > > > > aroma.
> > > > > > I keep the airlocks in the demijohns in this period in case of a
> > > > > > period of warmer
> > > > > > weather which could start off the fermentation again.
> > > > > > For example,a gallon of Schonberger (a full
> > > > > > flavoured white)
> > > > > > harvested in October 2006 fermented out by end of November 2006,tasted
> > > > > > extremely good until about May 2007.From then on the colour has
> > > > > > slightly
> > > > > > darkened,and the quality has gone to such an extent that the wine is
> > > > > > now
> > > > > > only just drinkable.
> > > > > > At all stages,I do not use metabisulphite
> > > > > > and am wondering
> > > > > > whether this is the problem.My wife seems sensitive to sulphites in
> > > > > > commercial
> > > > > > wine,so I am trying not to use them-hence the careful washing of the
> > > > > > grapes.
> > > > > > I have now read that organic winemakers are allowed to use a small
> > > > > > amount
> > > > > > of sulphite,but I do not know when it is added or how much.
>
> > > > > > Could someone please identify whether my
> > > > > > problem appears
> > > > > > to be lack of sulphites,and whether perhaps the dissolved oxygen in
> > > > > > the juice
> > > > > > at different handling stages is enough to cause the wine to
> > > > > > deteriorate,even
> > > > > > though the wine in an airlocked demijohn is basically closed to air.
>
> > > > > > Thanks,Michael
>
> > > > > Michael,
> > > > > It's probably a combination of both. You use sulfur sprays so your
> > > > > wine probably contains small quantities of sulfite anyway. If you
> > > > > want to avoid it's use be very careful when racking to avoid splashing
> > > > > of any kind; insert your racking drain all the way into the receiving
> > > > > container and let it fill gently with no splashing. Try to limit
> > > > > your racking to one or two before bottling. Some prefill containers
> > > > > or bottles with CO2 to avoid oxygenation also.
>
> > > > > I use sulfite in small amounts. 1/8 teaspoon of pot meta per 5 gallon
> > > > > US is usually enough to protect a wine.
>
> > > > > One thought might be to split your batches and sulfite one and not
> > > > > sulfite the other to see how it fares; you would be able to see how it
> > > > > affects your wife also without risking the whole batch.
>
> > > > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > Thanks for your reply Joe.One further query.I do not normally put my
> > > > wine into 75cl bottles at any stage,but keep it in a gallon demijohn
> > > > and put it into carafes for fairly immediate consumption during the
> > > > following week.I have bottled occasionally to give wine to one of my
> > > > children,but the bottling then takes place when the wine is quite
> > > > young.My query now is how to keep wine in a 1 gallon demijohn nice and
> > > > fresh,and perhaps I will have to use sulphites at some level.What I do
> > > > not understand is why wine maturing in oak barrels for some years
> > > > seems to age well without oxidation-is it to do with the large volume
> > > > of wine barrels compared with my smaller but impervious glass
> > > > vessels.The problem I am having does not yet seem to affect my red
> > > > wines,which have higher acidity.Do you also know how much sulphite is
> > > > allow for organic wine makers?Thanks again.Michael
>
> > > My wife doesn't like sulfites either so here is a link to explain the
> > > rules in the States; I'm not sure about other countries.
>
> > >http://www.organicconsumers.org/Organic/OrganicWine.cfm
>
> > > Oak barrels are sealed and most wine stored in them is sulfited. As
> > > to the gallon jugs, you may want o to break them up into 750 ml
> > > bottles once you tap into one, filling them completely and using T top
> > > stopper. (Tasting corks).
>
> > > An old world way to minimize oxidation was to pour olive oil on top of
> > > the wine to act as a seal. That is how my grandfather did it.
>
> > > Higher acid usually means lower pH; the lower the pH the less sulfite
> > > you need to protect wine; 0.8 ppm molecular is the commonly accepted
> > > value for protection. That might be why your reds keep better.
>
> > > If you decide to use sulfites we can explain that in more depth or
> > > just google sulfites in this group.
>
> > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Thanks for all of the replies,which have been most informative.I think
> > that I have decided to use small additions of sulphite,since the
> > keeping of the wine under CO2 does seem rather tricky.I also make
> > fairly large volumes of cider(about 8% alcohol) and have had similar
> > problems of oxidation of the cider when I try to keep it longer than
> > one year.With the cider I will be racking off several 5 gallon
> > fermenters during the season,and the thought of using a gas blanket
> > during each transferance is not very appealing.I make about 120
> > gallons of cider and 10 gallons of wine for my family's and friends
> > consumption.The cider is generally very good until the longest kept
> > volumes,and I had been considering using sulphites for these last
> > batches.I was hoping that my wine would be used for special
> > occasions,but at the moment the cider is much better.The grape juice
> > does seem to be of good quality,even though I am aware that the grapes
> > are grown in the UK.I have about 30 vines,which are common European
> > hybrids and ripen the fruit(and wood) very well.I usually pick the
> > grapes at a Brix level about 18,and at this level the acid levels are
> > very manageable.Some of these varieties of grape regularly win top
> > prizes at European blind tastings,so I am confident that my grape
> > juice is excellent.In my first year,my first attempts were very
> > good,but the wine was drunk around May,just 8 months after
> > harvest.Since then I have been keeping the wine longer than 12
> > months,and this is where the problem has arisen,and particularly for
> > the whites.As I indicated in my earlier mail,I wash the grapes and
> > ferment the grapes with the natural yeasts without any addition of
> > sulphites.So I really wish to produce very good quality (I am even
> > considering reducing grape yield in the future to improve juice
> > quality)wine,which retains its fresh and fruity characteristics until
> > drunk.The climate in southern England is variable from one year to the
> > next,although climate change is giving us higher temperatures than 30
> > years ago,and it is necessary to store wine(and cider ) for more than
> > a year to cope with this.So I think that I will add up to 50 ppm of
> > sulphite (10g/100ml gives a 5% solution and 5ml/gallon of wine gives
> > 50ppm ?)using sodium metabisulphite,but I am still not clear when to
> > add this.As I understand it,the primary fermentation takes 4-6
> > weeks,and the secondary malolactic fermentation about twice as long.I
> > read that sulphite in the wine at some level inhibits malolactic
> > fermentation,which could be a disadvantage for me since in a cool
> > season when the juice is more acidic,this secondary fermentation is
> > valuable in reducing acidity.Malolactic fermentation needs a higher
> > temperature to get started,and my storage area is typically 45-50F
> > until the April/May .So there is a conflict in waiting too long for
> > the secondary fermentation to be completed,such that oxidation sets
> > in.I am therefore thinking of adding 50ppm sulphite to my wines (and
> > cider) around the end of April,which is about 6 months after harvest.I
> > hope that my understanding is beginning to get up to speed,but I would
> > very much welcome further comments about whether what I am suggesting
> > really will maintain the quality of my juice.Thanks again,Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> First a question - are you sure your wines go through ML fermentation?
> The bacteria don't like low pH, and it sounds like your pH might be
> pretty low, given you pick your grapes at 18B - any chance you could
> let them hang longer to get higher sugar?
>
> For sulfite additions calculation, I'd recommend one of the online
> calculators, for ex.:http://www.fermsoft.com/sulphtable.php
> Your number looks too high based on the data that you ...
>
> read more >>- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi again,Joe.I appreciate all of your comments.I am not sure whether
my wines go through a malolactic fermentation.The only observation I
make is that I do get a precipitate of white crystals when the wine is
about 4-5 months from harvest,and,maybe incorrectly assumed that this
was a sign of secondary fermentation.What I do know is that my white
wines are very well balanced for drinking around May,with no
indication of too much acidity.It is very difficult to get very high
sugars in our UK environment and a Brix reading of 18 is regarded as
good.It can be dangerous to leave the wines too late into October as a
short period of rain then tends to split the grapes and botrytis gets
in quickly.I do not spray for botrytis at all and it is an ever
present threat at harvest time.The other problem I have is that my
cider orchard and vines are at our cottage in Herefordshire which is
120 miles away from our main home in Manchester.I am now retired from
my job as research physicist at The University of Manchester,so am
beginning to spend more time at the cottage.However in the busy cider
making and grape harvest season (September-early November) I am not
usually away for more than 10 days-but it does mean I may have to pick
when the sugar level is not quite the highest,and this means somewhere
between 17-19.I have recently changed some of my vine varieties to
include some that are more resistant to botrytis,so that I can
possibly leave the grapes longer before harvest.So my main
concern,particularly with the whites,is how to preserve the fresh
fruity quality for up to 2 years,rather than 6 months.I am aware that
some winemakers put sulphite in to the must right from the start,which
could protect the wine through the fermentation,racking and bottling
process,but I would rather just include it to lengthen the storage
time with a minimum amount.So the question is,when to add the
sulphite?-first racking or after a possible(?)malolactic fermentation-
and whether to use 30ppm or 50ppm generally for reds and whites or
perhaps just for the whites as the reds seem to last considerably
longer.Thanks,again,Michael

On 23 Nov, 10:45, michael > wrote:
> On 22 Nov, 19:25, pp > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 22, 7:02 am, michael > wrote:
>
> > > On 20 Nov, 18:12, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
> > > > On Nov 20, 11:51 am, michael > wrote:
>
> > > > > On 20 Nov, 13:18, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Nov 20, 7:07 am, michael > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Dear winemakers,
> > > > > > > I need some advice on how to mature and
> > > > > > > store wine in a
> > > > > > > reasonably organic way.I have been growing enough grapes in the last
> > > > > > > couple
> > > > > > > of years to make about 5 gallons of wine each year.I live in
> > > > > > > Herefordshire in
> > > > > > > the U.K.,and have a south facing limestone site which seems to ripen
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > grapes by about mid October.The only spray I use is wettable sulphur
> > > > > > > every
> > > > > > > two weeks or so throughout the growing period.I pick the
> > > > > > > grapes,discarding
> > > > > > > any rotten ones,and wash them carefully.I then proceed to crush and
> > > > > > > press
> > > > > > > the white grapes immediately and leave the reds to ferment on the
> > > > > > > skins for
> > > > > > > four or five days before pressing them.Fermentation usually begins
> > > > > > > within a
> > > > > > > day or so,and I keep the juices under an airlock.The fermentation
> > > > > > > usually
> > > > > > > lasts about four to five weeks,and I then rack the wine off the lees
> > > > > > > on a cold
> > > > > > > day.At this stage the wine tastes very promising-very fruity and not
> > > > > > > too sharp.
> > > > > > > Indeed,it is very drinkable!
>
> > > > > > > My problem comes when I leave the wine(in 1
> > > > > > > gallon
> > > > > > > demijohns)to mature for several months,and particularly with the
> > > > > > > whites.The
> > > > > > > wines seem to become much duller and lose their fruity taste and
> > > > > > > aroma.
> > > > > > > I keep the airlocks in the demijohns in this period in case of a
> > > > > > > period of warmer
> > > > > > > weather which could start off the fermentation again.
> > > > > > > For example,a gallon of Schonberger (a full
> > > > > > > flavoured white)
> > > > > > > harvested in October 2006 fermented out by end of November 2006,tasted
> > > > > > > extremely good until about May 2007.From then on the colour has
> > > > > > > slightly
> > > > > > > darkened,and the quality has gone to such an extent that the wine is
> > > > > > > now
> > > > > > > only just drinkable.
> > > > > > > At all stages,I do not use metabisulphite
> > > > > > > and am wondering
> > > > > > > whether this is the problem.My wife seems sensitive to sulphites in
> > > > > > > commercial
> > > > > > > wine,so I am trying not to use them-hence the careful washing of the
> > > > > > > grapes.
> > > > > > > I have now read that organic winemakers are allowed to use a small
> > > > > > > amount
> > > > > > > of sulphite,but I do not know when it is added or how much.
>
> > > > > > > Could someone please identify whether my
> > > > > > > problem appears
> > > > > > > to be lack of sulphites,and whether perhaps the dissolved oxygen in
> > > > > > > the juice
> > > > > > > at different handling stages is enough to cause the wine to
> > > > > > > deteriorate,even
> > > > > > > though the wine in an airlocked demijohn is basically closed to air.
>
> > > > > > > Thanks,Michael
>
> > > > > > Michael,
> > > > > > It's probably a combination of both. You use sulfur sprays so your
> > > > > > wine probably contains small quantities of sulfite anyway. If you
> > > > > > want to avoid it's use be very careful when racking to avoid splashing
> > > > > > of any kind; insert your racking drain all the way into the receiving
> > > > > > container and let it fill gently with no splashing. Try to limit
> > > > > > your racking to one or two before bottling. Some prefill containers
> > > > > > or bottles with CO2 to avoid oxygenation also.
>
> > > > > > I use sulfite in small amounts. 1/8 teaspoon of pot meta per 5 gallon
> > > > > > US is usually enough to protect a wine.
>
> > > > > > One thought might be to split your batches and sulfite one and not
> > > > > > sulfite the other to see how it fares; you would be able to see how it
> > > > > > affects your wife also without risking the whole batch.
>
> > > > > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > Thanks for your reply Joe.One further query.I do not normally put my
> > > > > wine into 75cl bottles at any stage,but keep it in a gallon demijohn
> > > > > and put it into carafes for fairly immediate consumption during the
> > > > > following week.I have bottled occasionally to give wine to one of my
> > > > > children,but the bottling then takes place when the wine is quite
> > > > > young.My query now is how to keep wine in a 1 gallon demijohn nice and
> > > > > fresh,and perhaps I will have to use sulphites at some level.What I do
> > > > > not understand is why wine maturing in oak barrels for some years
> > > > > seems to age well without oxidation-is it to do with the large volume
> > > > > of wine barrels compared with my smaller but impervious glass
> > > > > vessels.The problem I am having does not yet seem to affect my red
> > > > > wines,which have higher acidity.Do you also know how much sulphite is
> > > > > allow for organic wine makers?Thanks again.Michael
>
> > > > My wife doesn't like sulfites either so here is a link to explain the
> > > > rules in the States; I'm not sure about other countries.
>
> > > >http://www.organicconsumers.org/Organic/OrganicWine.cfm
>
> > > > Oak barrels are sealed and most wine stored in them is sulfited. As
> > > > to the gallon jugs, you may want o to break them up into 750 ml
> > > > bottles once you tap into one, filling them completely and using T top
> > > > stopper. (Tasting corks).
>
> > > > An old world way to minimize oxidation was to pour olive oil on top of
> > > > the wine to act as a seal. That is how my grandfather did it.
>
> > > > Higher acid usually means lower pH; the lower the pH the less sulfite
> > > > you need to protect wine; 0.8 ppm molecular is the commonly accepted
> > > > value for protection. That might be why your reds keep better.
>
> > > > If you decide to use sulfites we can explain that in more depth or
> > > > just google sulfites in this group.
>
> > > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Thanks for all of the replies,which have been most informative.I think
> > > that I have decided to use small additions of sulphite,since the
> > > keeping of the wine under CO2 does seem rather tricky.I also make
> > > fairly large volumes of cider(about 8% alcohol) and have had similar
> > > problems of oxidation of the cider when I try to keep it longer than
> > > one year.With the cider I will be racking off several 5 gallon
> > > fermenters during the season,and the thought of using a gas blanket
> > > during each transferance is not very appealing.I make about 120
> > > gallons of cider and 10 gallons of wine for my family's and friends
> > > consumption.The cider is generally very good until the longest kept
> > > volumes,and I had been considering using sulphites for these last
> > > batches.I was hoping that my wine would be used for special
> > > occasions,but at the moment the cider is much better.The grape juice
> > > does seem to be of good quality,even though I am aware that the grapes
> > > are grown in the UK.I have about 30 vines,which are common European
> > > hybrids and ripen the fruit(and wood) very well.I usually pick the
> > > grapes at a Brix level about 18,and at this level the acid levels are
> > > very manageable.Some of these varieties of grape regularly win top
> > > prizes at European blind tastings,so I am confident that my grape
> > > juice is excellent.In my first year,my first attempts were very
> > > good,but the wine was drunk around May,just 8 months after
> > > harvest.Since then I have been keeping the wine longer than 12
> > > months,and this is where the problem has arisen,and particularly for
> > > the whites.As I indicated in my earlier mail,I wash the grapes and
> > > ferment the grapes with the natural yeasts without any addition of
> > > sulphites.So I really wish to produce very good quality (I am even
> > > considering reducing grape yield in the future to improve juice
> > > quality)wine,which retains its fresh and fruity characteristics until
> > > drunk.The climate in southern England is variable from one year to the
> > > next,although climate change is giving us higher temperatures than 30
> > > years ago,and it is necessary to store wine(and cider ) for more than
> > > a year to cope with this.So I think that I will add up to 50 ppm of
> > > sulphite (10g/100ml gives a 5% solution and 5ml/gallon of wine gives
> > > 50ppm ?)using sodium metabisulphite,but I am still not clear when to
> > > add this.As I understand it,the primary fermentation takes 4-6
> > > weeks,and the secondary malolactic fermentation about twice as long.I
> > > read that sulphite in the wine at some level inhibits malolactic
> > > fermentation,which could be a disadvantage for me since in a cool
> > > season when the juice is more acidic,this secondary fermentation is
> > > valuable in reducing acidity.Malolactic fermentation needs a higher
> > > temperature to get started,and my storage area is typically 45-50F
> > > until the April/May .So there is a conflict in waiting too long for
> > > the secondary fermentation to be completed,such that oxidation sets
> > > in.I am therefore thinking of adding 50ppm sulphite to my wines (and
> > > cider) around the end of April,which is about 6 months after harvest.I
> > > hope that my understanding is beginning to get up to speed,but I would
> > > very much welcome further comments about whether what I am suggesting
> > > really will maintain the quality of my juice.Thanks again,Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > First a question - are you sure your wines go through ML
>
> ...
>
> read more >>- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi again,I had a look at the sulphite table,which is for potassium
metabisulphite.My numbers were for sodium metabisulphite and for 50ppm
correspond to 2.5g of sodium metabisulphite/5 gallons.In your table
using the potassium salt,50 ppm corresponds to 1.64g of potassium
metabisulphite.It seems to me that maybe you should need a higher mass
of potassium salt to get the equivalent amount of sulphite to the
light sodium salt,but maybe my chemistry is failing me.So you could be
right and my numbers for sodium are too high.I will investigate
further! Cheers,Michael

On 23 Nov, 11:08, michael > wrote:
> On 23 Nov, 10:45, michael > wrote:
>
> > On 22 Nov, 19:25, pp > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 22, 7:02 am, michael > wrote:
>
> > > > On 20 Nov, 18:12, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Nov 20, 11:51 am, michael > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On 20 Nov, 13:18, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Nov 20, 7:07 am, michael > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > Dear winemakers,
> > > > > > > > I need some advice on how to mature and
> > > > > > > > store wine in a
> > > > > > > > reasonably organic way.I have been growing enough grapes in the last
> > > > > > > > couple
> > > > > > > > of years to make about 5 gallons of wine each year.I live in
> > > > > > > > Herefordshire in
> > > > > > > > the U.K.,and have a south facing limestone site which seems to ripen
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > grapes by about mid October.The only spray I use is wettable sulphur
> > > > > > > > every
> > > > > > > > two weeks or so throughout the growing period.I pick the
> > > > > > > > grapes,discarding
> > > > > > > > any rotten ones,and wash them carefully.I then proceed to crush and
> > > > > > > > press
> > > > > > > > the white grapes immediately and leave the reds to ferment on the
> > > > > > > > skins for
> > > > > > > > four or five days before pressing them.Fermentation usually begins
> > > > > > > > within a
> > > > > > > > day or so,and I keep the juices under an airlock.The fermentation
> > > > > > > > usually
> > > > > > > > lasts about four to five weeks,and I then rack the wine off the lees
> > > > > > > > on a cold
> > > > > > > > day.At this stage the wine tastes very promising-very fruity and not
> > > > > > > > too sharp.
> > > > > > > > Indeed,it is very drinkable!
>
> > > > > > > > My problem comes when I leave the wine(in 1
> > > > > > > > gallon
> > > > > > > > demijohns)to mature for several months,and particularly with the
> > > > > > > > whites.The
> > > > > > > > wines seem to become much duller and lose their fruity taste and
> > > > > > > > aroma.
> > > > > > > > I keep the airlocks in the demijohns in this period in case of a
> > > > > > > > period of warmer
> > > > > > > > weather which could start off the fermentation again.
> > > > > > > > For example,a gallon of Schonberger (a full
> > > > > > > > flavoured white)
> > > > > > > > harvested in October 2006 fermented out by end of November 2006,tasted
> > > > > > > > extremely good until about May 2007.From then on the colour has
> > > > > > > > slightly
> > > > > > > > darkened,and the quality has gone to such an extent that the wine is
> > > > > > > > now
> > > > > > > > only just drinkable.
> > > > > > > > At all stages,I do not use metabisulphite
> > > > > > > > and am wondering
> > > > > > > > whether this is the problem.My wife seems sensitive to sulphites in
> > > > > > > > commercial
> > > > > > > > wine,so I am trying not to use them-hence the careful washing of the
> > > > > > > > grapes.
> > > > > > > > I have now read that organic winemakers are allowed to use a small
> > > > > > > > amount
> > > > > > > > of sulphite,but I do not know when it is added or how much.
>
> > > > > > > > Could someone please identify whether my
> > > > > > > > problem appears
> > > > > > > > to be lack of sulphites,and whether perhaps the dissolved oxygen in
> > > > > > > > the juice
> > > > > > > > at different handling stages is enough to cause the wine to
> > > > > > > > deteriorate,even
> > > > > > > > though the wine in an airlocked demijohn is basically closed to air.
>
> > > > > > > > Thanks,Michael
>
> > > > > > > Michael,
> > > > > > > It's probably a combination of both. You use sulfur sprays so your
> > > > > > > wine probably contains small quantities of sulfite anyway. If you
> > > > > > > want to avoid it's use be very careful when racking to avoid splashing
> > > > > > > of any kind; insert your racking drain all the way into the receiving
> > > > > > > container and let it fill gently with no splashing. Try to limit
> > > > > > > your racking to one or two before bottling. Some prefill containers
> > > > > > > or bottles with CO2 to avoid oxygenation also.
>
> > > > > > > I use sulfite in small amounts. 1/8 teaspoon of pot meta per 5 gallon
> > > > > > > US is usually enough to protect a wine.
>
> > > > > > > One thought might be to split your batches and sulfite one and not
> > > > > > > sulfite the other to see how it fares; you would be able to see how it
> > > > > > > affects your wife also without risking the whole batch.
>
> > > > > > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > Thanks for your reply Joe.One further query.I do not normally put my
> > > > > > wine into 75cl bottles at any stage,but keep it in a gallon demijohn
> > > > > > and put it into carafes for fairly immediate consumption during the
> > > > > > following week.I have bottled occasionally to give wine to one of my
> > > > > > children,but the bottling then takes place when the wine is quite
> > > > > > young.My query now is how to keep wine in a 1 gallon demijohn nice and
> > > > > > fresh,and perhaps I will have to use sulphites at some level.What I do
> > > > > > not understand is why wine maturing in oak barrels for some years
> > > > > > seems to age well without oxidation-is it to do with the large volume
> > > > > > of wine barrels compared with my smaller but impervious glass
> > > > > > vessels.The problem I am having does not yet seem to affect my red
> > > > > > wines,which have higher acidity.Do you also know how much sulphite is
> > > > > > allow for organic wine makers?Thanks again.Michael
>
> > > > > My wife doesn't like sulfites either so here is a link to explain the
> > > > > rules in the States; I'm not sure about other countries.
>
> > > > >http://www.organicconsumers.org/Organic/OrganicWine.cfm
>
> > > > > Oak barrels are sealed and most wine stored in them is sulfited. As
> > > > > to the gallon jugs, you may want o to break them up into 750 ml
> > > > > bottles once you tap into one, filling them completely and using T top
> > > > > stopper. (Tasting corks).
>
> > > > > An old world way to minimize oxidation was to pour olive oil on top of
> > > > > the wine to act as a seal. That is how my grandfather did it.
>
> > > > > Higher acid usually means lower pH; the lower the pH the less sulfite
> > > > > you need to protect wine; 0.8 ppm molecular is the commonly accepted
> > > > > value for protection. That might be why your reds keep better.
>
> > > > > If you decide to use sulfites we can explain that in more depth or
> > > > > just google sulfites in this group.
>
> > > > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > Thanks for all of the replies,which have been most informative.I think
> > > > that I have decided to use small additions of sulphite,since the
> > > > keeping of the wine under CO2 does seem rather tricky.I also make
> > > > fairly large volumes of cider(about 8% alcohol) and have had similar
> > > > problems of oxidation of the cider when I try to keep it longer than
> > > > one year.With the cider I will be racking off several 5 gallon
> > > > fermenters during the season,and the thought of using a gas blanket
> > > > during each transferance is not very appealing.I make about 120
> > > > gallons of cider and 10 gallons of wine for my family's and friends
> > > > consumption.The cider is generally very good until the longest kept
> > > > volumes,and I had been considering using sulphites for these last
> > > > batches.I was hoping that my wine would be used for special
> > > > occasions,but at the moment the cider is much better.The grape juice
> > > > does seem to be of good quality,even though I am aware that the grapes
> > > > are grown in the UK.I have about 30 vines,which are common European
> > > > hybrids and ripen the fruit(and wood) very well.I usually pick the
> > > > grapes at a Brix level about 18,and at this level the acid levels are
> > > > very manageable.Some of these varieties of grape regularly win top
> > > > prizes at European blind tastings,so I am confident that my grape
> > > > juice is excellent.In my first year,my first attempts were very
> > > > good,but the wine was drunk around May,just 8 months after
> > > > harvest.Since then I have been keeping the wine longer than 12
> > > > months,and this is where the problem has arisen,and particularly for
> > > > the whites.As I indicated in my earlier mail,I wash the grapes and
> > > > ferment the grapes with the natural yeasts without any addition of
> > > > sulphites.So I really wish to produce very good quality (I am even
> > > > considering reducing grape yield in the future to improve juice
> > > > quality)wine,which retains its fresh and fruity characteristics until
> > > > drunk.The climate in southern England is variable from one year to the
> > > > next,although climate change is giving us higher temperatures than 30
> > > > years ago,and it is necessary to store wine(and cider ) for more than
> > > > a year to cope with this.So I think that I will add up to 50 ppm of
> > > > sulphite (10g/100ml gives a 5% solution and 5ml/gallon of wine gives
> > > > 50ppm ?)using sodium metabisulphite,but I am still not clear when to
> > > > add this.As I understand it,the primary fermentation takes 4-6
> > > > weeks,and the secondary malolactic fermentation about twice as long.I
> > > > read that sulphite in the wine at some level inhibits malolactic
> > > > fermentation,which could be a disadvantage for me since in a cool
> > > > season when the juice is more acidic,this secondary fermentation is
> > > > valuable in reducing acidity.Malolactic fermentation needs a higher
> > > > temperature to get started,and my storage area is typically 45-50F
> > > > until the April/May .So there is a conflict in waiting too long for
> > > > the secondary fermentation to be completed,such that oxidation sets
> > > > in.I am therefore thinking of adding 50ppm sulphite to my wines (and
> > > > cider) around the end of April,which is about 6 months after harvest.I
> > > > hope that my understanding is beginning to get up to speed,but I would
> > > > very much welcome further comments about whether what I am suggesting
> > > > really will maintain the quality of my juice.Thanks again,Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > First a question - are you sure your wines go through ML
>
> > ...
>
> > read more >>- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Hi again,I had a look at the sulphite table,which is for potassium
> metabisulphite.My numbers were for sodium metabisulphite and for 50ppm
> correspond to 2.5g of sodium metabisulphite/5 gallons.In your table
> using the potassium salt,50 ppm corresponds to 1.64g of potassium
> metabisulphite.It seems to me that maybe you should need a higher mass
> of potassium salt to get the equivalent amount of sulphite to the
> light sodium salt,but maybe my chemistry is failing me.So you could be
> right and my numbers for sodium are too high.I will investigate
> further! Cheers,Michael

Hi again,My replies seem difficult to access at the moment but they
are there,Forget about my last comments concerning the relation
between sodium and potassium metabisulfite.I misread the table you
referred to.I have looked up a couple more web sites and I am now
happy that they are consistent and that my sodium numbers do
correspond to 50ppm,Cheers again Michael

>
> Hi again,I had a look at the sulphite table,which is for potassium
> metabisulphite.My numbers were for sodium metabisulphite and for 50ppm
> correspond to 2.5g of sodium metabisulphite/5 gallons.In your table
> using the potassium salt,50 ppm corresponds to 1.64g of potassium
> metabisulphite.It seems to me that maybe you should need a higher mass
> of potassium salt to get the equivalent amount of sulphite to the
> light sodium salt,but maybe my chemistry is failing me.So you could be
> right and my numbers for sodium are too high.I will investigate
> further! Cheers,Michael

Michael:

The formsoft online sulfite table generator can be set tp either
sodium or potassium. You do need more potassium based powder than
sodium, that's correct. However, I do believe that 2.5g of either is
too high to give you 50 ppm of SO2 in your wine. Here's another link -
an in depth explanation of sulfites in wine - which should cover all
your questions in detail:

http://www.brsquared.org/wine/ under Articles -> Sulphur Dioxide

In section 19, there is a couple of sample calculations - they're for
potasium meta but you can adjust them for sodium meta by using the
67.4 factor instead of 57.6. I did the 2nd calculation for your
numbers and it gives the same result as the table - 14.04 ml of the
stock solution for 5 US gallons (if you use imperial gallons, just
recalucate for 6 US gals).

Otherwise, sulfite added to the must before fermentation will be
pretty much gone after the ferment, so it won't protect your wine for
long term aging. You need to make the sulfite addition after the
ferment (or ML ferment if you go that route).

White crystals in the carboy sounds like "wine diamonds", i.e.,
tartaric acid precipitating out as cream of tartar - normal occurrence
for high acid wines. From what you're saying, I doubt your wines go
through ML but you can always make sure by doing a chromatography
test. Otherwise, just way until the wines taste the way you like them
and sulfite then - but don't wait with that too long, the April date
you mentioned is about as far as you can stretch it. But I would
recommend making sure about the ML - because if your wines are not
going through it, you can and should sulfite right after the ferment
is over, during the first racking.

Pp

On 23 Nov, 18:06, pp > wrote:
> > Hi again,I had a look at the sulphite table,which is for potassium
> > metabisulphite.My numbers were for sodium metabisulphite and for 50ppm
> > correspond to 2.5g of sodium metabisulphite/5 gallons.In your table
> > using the potassium salt,50 ppm corresponds to 1.64g of potassium
> > metabisulphite.It seems to me that maybe you should need a higher mass
> > of potassium salt to get the equivalent amount of sulphite to the
> > light sodium salt,but maybe my chemistry is failing me.So you could be
> > right and my numbers for sodium are too high.I will investigate
> > further! Cheers,Michael
>
> Michael:
>
> The formsoft online sulfite table generator can be set tp either
> sodium or potassium. You do need more potassium based powder than
> sodium, that's correct. However, I do believe that 2.5g of either is
> too high to give you 50 ppm of SO2 in your wine. Here's another link -
> an in depth explanation of sulfites in wine - which should cover all
> your questions in detail:
>
> http://www.brsquared.org/wine/under Articles -> Sulphur Dioxide
>
> In section 19, there is a couple of sample calculations - they're for
> potasium meta but you can adjust them for sodium meta by using the
> 67.4 factor instead of 57.6. I did the 2nd calculation for your
> numbers and it gives the same result as the table - 14.04 ml of the
> stock solution for 5 US gallons (if you use imperial gallons, just
> recalucate for 6 US gals).
>
> Otherwise, sulfite added to the must before fermentation will be
> pretty much gone after the ferment, so it won't protect your wine for
> long term aging. You need to make the sulfite addition after the
> ferment (or ML ferment if you go that route).
>
> White crystals in the carboy sounds like "wine diamonds", i.e.,
> tartaric acid precipitating out as cream of tartar - normal occurrence
> for high acid wines. From what you're saying, I doubt your wines go
> through ML but you can always make sure by doing a chromatography
> test. Otherwise, just way until the wines taste the way you like them
> and sulfite then - but don't wait with that too long, the April date
> you mentioned is about as far as you can stretch it. But I would
> recommend making sure about the ML - because if your wines are not
> going through it, you can and should sulfite right after the ferment
> is over, during the first racking.
>
> Pp

Thanks again,Joe.I think that we are almost there.I will check again
on the sulphite numbers,and also try to see whether I really do get an
ML fermentation.You mentioned a chromatography test-can you buy simple
kits for this?Alternatively,I could taste the wine around Christmas
time-and maybe drink some-and if I like it,add some sulphite then as
you are suggesting.I think that the whites are pretty good early,so
this procedure maybe quite good,provided I do not compromise the wine
by continually unstoppering it to taste!I am sure that if I pick the
white grapes at about 18 Brix,then the quality should be
excellent.With the reds,I believe that I can leave them longer,as I do
not seem to have a problem with oxidation so far.(I mean here longer
in the glass carboy before sulphiting).Incidentally,does it
matter,with regards to oxidation,whether I close the 1 gallon demijohn
with an airlock or with a straight rubber bung or a cork bung.With
these demijohns,being vertical,a cork bung would not be moistened as
in horizontal bottle storage,so probably a rubber bung is
better.However,I have noticed that with my cider making rubber bungs
can go loose at times if there is any excess pressure left-is it wise
to use potassium sorbate if sulphiting early,though I am reluctant to
use even more chemicals,since I am trying to produce a reasonably
organic wine-whatever that really means.Best regards,Michael

On 24 Nov, 09:57, michael > wrote:
> On 23 Nov, 18:06, pp > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Hi again,I had a look at the sulphite table,which is for potassium
> > > metabisulphite.My numbers were for sodium metabisulphite and for 50ppm
> > > correspond to 2.5g of sodium metabisulphite/5 gallons.In your table
> > > using the potassium salt,50 ppm corresponds to 1.64g of potassium
> > > metabisulphite.It seems to me that maybe you should need a higher mass
> > > of potassium salt to get the equivalent amount of sulphite to the
> > > light sodium salt,but maybe my chemistry is failing me.So you could be
> > > right and my numbers for sodium are too high.I will investigate
> > > further! Cheers,Michael
>
> > Michael:
>
> > The formsoft online sulfite table generator can be set tp either
> > sodium or potassium. You do need more potassium based powder than
> > sodium, that's correct. However, I do believe that 2.5g of either is
> > too high to give you 50 ppm of SO2 in your wine. Here's another link -
> > an in depth explanation of sulfites in wine - which should cover all
> > your questions in detail:
>
> >http://www.brsquared.org/wine/underArticles -> Sulphur Dioxide
>
> > In section 19, there is a couple of sample calculations - they're for
> > potasium meta but you can adjust them for sodium meta by using the
> > 67.4 factor instead of 57.6. I did the 2nd calculation for your
> > numbers and it gives the same result as the table - 14.04 ml of the
> > stock solution for 5 US gallons (if you use imperial gallons, just
> > recalucate for 6 US gals).
>
> > Otherwise, sulfite added to the must before fermentation will be
> > pretty much gone after the ferment, so it won't protect your wine for
> > long term aging. You need to make the sulfite addition after the
> > ferment (or ML ferment if you go that route).
>
> > White crystals in the carboy sounds like "wine diamonds", i.e.,
> > tartaric acid precipitating out as cream of tartar - normal occurrence
> > for high acid wines. From what you're saying, I doubt your wines go
> > through ML but you can always make sure by doing a chromatography
> > test. Otherwise, just way until the wines taste the way you like them
> > and sulfite then - but don't wait with that too long, the April date
> > you mentioned is about as far as you can stretch it. But I would
> > recommend making sure about the ML - because if your wines are not
> > going through it, you can and should sulfite right after the ferment
> > is over, during the first racking.
>
> > Pp
>
> Thanks again,Joe.I think that we are almost there.I will check again
> on the sulphite numbers,and also try to see whether I really do get an
> ML fermentation.You mentioned a chromatography test-can you buy simple
> kits for this?Alternatively,I could taste the wine around Christmas
> time-and maybe drink some-and if I like it,add some sulphite then as
> you are suggesting.I think that the whites are pretty good early,so
> this procedure maybe quite good,provided I do not compromise the wine
> by continually unstoppering it to taste!I am sure that if I pick the
> white grapes at about 18 Brix,then the quality should be
> excellent.With the reds,I believe that I can leave them longer,as I do
> not seem to have a problem with oxidation so far.(I mean here longer
> in the glass carboy before sulphiting).Incidentally,does it
> matter,with regards to oxidation,whether I close the 1 gallon demijohn
> with an airlock or with a straight rubber bung or a cork bung.With
> these demijohns,being vertical,a cork bung would not be moistened as
> in horizontal bottle storage,so probably a rubber bung is
> better.However,I have noticed that with my cider making rubber bungs
> can go loose at times if there is any excess pressure left-is it wise
> to use potassium sorbate if sulphiting early,though I am reluctant to
> use even more chemicals,since I am trying to produce a reasonably
> organic wine-whatever that really means.Best regards,Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi again,Thanks for the web site you included which gives extremely
good coverage of the use of sulphites in wine.I will read it carefully
soon to extend my knowledge into this area of wine chemistry.For the
moment I think your comments are correct and that I have been adding
sodium met to give nearer 70ppmSO2 than 50ppmSO2.I obtained my
original numbers from a pretty good cider web site,so I will have a
look at them again.Michael

> Thanks again,Joe.I think that we are almost there.I will check again
> on the sulphite numbers,and also try to see whether I really do get an
> ML fermentation.You mentioned a chromatography test-can you buy simple
> kits for this?Alternatively,I could taste the wine around Christmas
> time-and maybe drink some-and if I like it,add some sulphite then as
> you are suggesting.I think that the whites are pretty good early,so
> this procedure maybe quite good,provided I do not compromise the wine
> by continually unstoppering it to taste!I am sure that if I pick the
> white grapes at about 18 Brix,then the quality should be
> excellent.With the reds,I believe that I can leave them longer,as I do
> not seem to have a problem with oxidation so far.(I mean here longer
> in the glass carboy before sulphiting).Incidentally,does it
> matter,with regards to oxidation,whether I close the 1 gallon demijohn
> with an airlock or with a straight rubber bung or a cork bung.With
> these demijohns,being vertical,a cork bung would not be moistened as
> in horizontal bottle storage,so probably a rubber bung is
> better.However,I have noticed that with my cider making rubber bungs
> can go loose at times if there is any excess pressure left-is it wise
> to use potassium sorbate if sulphiting early,though I am reluctant to
> use even more chemicals,since I am trying to produce a reasonably
> organic wine-whatever that really means.Best regards,Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yes, you can buy simple ML kits, at least here in North America, not
sure about Europe. Or, given your background, you could probably
assemble one yourself - the only tricky part is mixing the solvent.
There is also a paper-strip instant test produced by somebody -
Accuvin?

Solid bung will give a better seal, but the wine HAS to be stable and
you should also watch outside temperature fluctuations. It's not much
fun coming back home in summer after an evening soccer game and
finding one's flour covered in 6 gals of blueberry port - the wine was
stable but the carboy cracked because of increased pressure caused by
summer heat.

Pp

On 26 Nov, 17:44, pp > wrote:
> > Thanks again,Joe.I think that we are almost there.I will check again
> > on the sulphite numbers,and also try to see whether I really do get an
> > ML fermentation.You mentioned a chromatography test-can you buy simple
> > kits for this?Alternatively,I could taste the wine around Christmas
> > time-and maybe drink some-and if I like it,add some sulphite then as
> > you are suggesting.I think that the whites are pretty good early,so
> > this procedure maybe quite good,provided I do not compromise the wine
> > by continually unstoppering it to taste!I am sure that if I pick the
> > white grapes at about 18 Brix,then the quality should be
> > excellent.With the reds,I believe that I can leave them longer,as I do
> > not seem to have a problem with oxidation so far.(I mean here longer
> > in the glass carboy before sulphiting).Incidentally,does it
> > matter,with regards to oxidation,whether I close the 1 gallon demijohn
> > with an airlock or with a straight rubber bung or a cork bung.With
> > these demijohns,being vertical,a cork bung would not be moistened as
> > in horizontal bottle storage,so probably a rubber bung is
> > better.However,I have noticed that with my cider making rubber bungs
> > can go loose at times if there is any excess pressure left-is it wise
> > to use potassium sorbate if sulphiting early,though I am reluctant to
> > use even more chemicals,since I am trying to produce a reasonably
> > organic wine-whatever that really means.Best regards,Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Yes, you can buy simple ML kits, at least here in North America, not
> sure about Europe. Or, given your background, you could probably
> assemble one yourself - the only tricky part is mixing the solvent.
> There is also a paper-strip instant test produced by somebody -
> Accuvin?
>
> Solid bung will give a better seal, but the wine HAS to be stable and
> you should also watch outside temperature fluctuations. It's not much
> fun coming back home in summer after an evening soccer game and
> finding one's flour covered in 6 gals of blueberry port - the wine was
> stable but the carboy cracked because of increased pressure caused by
> summer heat.
>
> Pp- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks,Joe.I am wary of temperature fluctuations as I keep my wine in
our garage.I try to keep sufficient gap at the top of the 1 gallon
demijohns so that the expanded liquid doesnt force the rubber bung out
in warm summer weather.With my cider making,on several occasions the
rubber bungs have been forced out since the cider was put in when the
cider was not fully fermented out.I am pretty sure that the bungs
would come out of the demijohn rather than crack it,but maybe this is
not always the case.Your 6 gallon carboy which cracked was maybe more
vulnerable and liable to crack at lower pressure than with a smaller
diameter 1 gallon demijohn?I am also aware of downward fluctuations in
temperature,and this is one of the reasons why I was asking you
whether airlocks or bungs are to be preferred-I have noticed on some
occasions that when the temperature drops below zero(outside!)the
airlock goes into a negative pressure state and could pull air in.I
suppose temperature fluctuations for England are probably not as
serious as those where you are in the U.S.Our summers are getting
warmer,but temperatures rarely get above 30C,or below -5C,and then not
for long.

I am reading a book at the moment about a modern French winemaker.It
is the form of a novel but describes his winemaking year in reasonable
detail.He seems to put great emphasis of getting his grapes harvested
and pressed very quickly to avoid oxidation,and retain the fresh
fruity flavours at all stages.He is an organic wine maker,and is
experimenting to see what the minimum of sulphite needs to be added at
the two important stages.That is,initially when the grapes are pressed
and just before the wine is bottled.Unfortunately,he does not give the
quantities!!I hope to follow this kind of practise,and may probably
add 20ppm initially and 30ppm before putting into the demijohns for
longer storage.I may vary this for high or low acid juices(early or
late harvesting),but wish to keep it simple.In your experience,does
20ppm or so initially inhibit the natural fermentation
significantly,and is it enough to do any good at all?

Thanks again for your help,Michael

Hi. It may be a little late this year unless you're conducting
spontaneous/natural malolactic ferfmentation. I'm with Accuvin. We do
make rapid strip tests for L-Lactic Acid (to check that MLF has started)
and for Malic Acid (to verify MLF completion). They are more sensitive
than chromatography, take only 4 minutes, and don't require any other lab
equipment. They might make your MLF monitoring easier.
Regards

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