Hi all,

I've draw a rough diagram of the trends in sugar/acid/flavour/etc
changes in fruits as they mature. This is at:

http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter/maturing.htm

For those who have experience/knowledge in this area, I would welcome
any comments on this diagram. I'm aware many things could be tweaked,
just interested in what people on the group see as important.

Thanks,
Ben

Ben,

Nice work. Visual learners like me appreciate it

Did you intend to leave the trend for Ph out of the chart? I see you
listed it in the key. Also, I feel the upper vegetal flavour trend is
more realistic, as it seems to reach high levels early in the season.

HTH, Mike MTM

Mike,

Thanks for the comments.

> Did you intend to leave the trend for Ph out of the chart? I see you

Yes, I was waiting to hear what others thought on this. (?)

> listed it in the key. Also, I feel the upper vegetal flavour trend is
> more realistic, as it seems to reach high levels early in the season.

OK. Perhaps a shallower slope and a peak a little earlier than
veraison would better represent this?

Ben

Ben Rotter wrote:

>
>
> Yes, I was waiting to hear what others thought on this. (?)

Try this page:
http://www.lingenfelder.com/winemaki...560&height=346
(Sorry for the long address.) Notice the abrupt change in pH trend.

Even Peynaud is vague in reference to pH and acid trends before veraison.
>
>
the upper vegetal flavour trend
>
> OK. Perhaps a shallower slope and a peak a little earlier than
> veraison would better represent this?


It's just an opinion, but that sounds reasonable.

HTH, Mike MTM

Good work!
Your graph shows how all the factors for grapes come together during
ripening.
What do you mean by tannic ripeness? How would you measure it? How would
use your graph to help one determine grape ripeness and the optimum time to
pick?

Joe

"Ben Rotter" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi all,
>
> I've draw a rough diagram of the trends in sugar/acid/flavour/etc
> changes in fruits as they mature. This is at:
>
> http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter/maturing.htm
>
> For those who have experience/knowledge in this area, I would welcome
> any comments on this diagram. I'm aware many things could be tweaked,
> just interested in what people on the group see as important.
>
> Thanks,
> Ben

> Good work!
> Your graph shows how all the factors for grapes come together during
> ripening.

Thanks Joe.

> What do you mean by tannic ripeness? How would you measure it? How would
> use your graph to help one determine grape ripeness and the optimum time to
> pick?

All these questions will be answered in an article I'm currently
writing for my website on assessing fruit maturity (which is what this
graph is ultimately for). In short:

> What do you mean by tannic ripeness?

As a fruit matures the phenolic compounds contained within polymerise
with other molecules such as sugars and proteins. This results in an
organoleptic change with hard, bitter tannins becoming more
astringent, soft, and supple. "Tannic ripeness" is a pre-defined point
at which the tannins are considered mature enough for use in making a
wine of a particular style with particular fruit.

> How would you measure it?

Accurate measurements of tannin (which is a catch all term for many
non-volatile phenolic substances) can be made using various chemical
assays (it's commonly for a spectrophotometer to be used). However,
most home winemakers don't have access to the chemicals or equipment
necessary for such tests and rely on tasting the fruit and assessing
the character of the tannins.

> How would use your graph to help one determine grape ripeness and the optimum > time to pick?

To determine the extent of maturity many fruit attributes can be
assessed (e.g. sugar and acid concentration, aroma and flavour
profile, tannic ripeness). The graph simply shows the trends of each
of these attributes as the fruit ripens. A fruit might have a high
sugar content yet, upon tasting the skins, still have very harsh and
astringent tannins. It may therefore be left on the plant to mature
further. Of course it depends on the fruit as to what constitutes
"very harsh" tannins and the taster is required to know what this
means in terms of that particular fruit's stage of maturity.

All these attributes will be covered more in the coming article. If
you're interested, I'll post a message when it's complete.

Ben

Improved Winemaking
http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter/

Thanks Ben!

Look forward to reading your article.

Joe

"Ben Rotter" > wrote in message
om...
> > Good work!
> > Your graph shows how all the factors for grapes come together during
> > ripening.
>
> Thanks Joe.
>
> > What do you mean by tannic ripeness? How would you measure it? How
would
> > use your graph to help one determine grape ripeness and the optimum time
to
> > pick?
>
> All these questions will be answered in an article I'm currently
> writing for my website on assessing fruit maturity (which is what this
> graph is ultimately for). In short:
>
> > What do you mean by tannic ripeness?
>
> As a fruit matures the phenolic compounds contained within polymerise
> with other molecules such as sugars and proteins. This results in an
> organoleptic change with hard, bitter tannins becoming more
> astringent, soft, and supple. "Tannic ripeness" is a pre-defined point
> at which the tannins are considered mature enough for use in making a
> wine of a particular style with particular fruit.
>
> > How would you measure it?
>
> Accurate measurements of tannin (which is a catch all term for many
> non-volatile phenolic substances) can be made using various chemical
> assays (it's commonly for a spectrophotometer to be used). However,
> most home winemakers don't have access to the chemicals or equipment
> necessary for such tests and rely on tasting the fruit and assessing
> the character of the tannins.
>
> > How would use your graph to help one determine grape ripeness and the
optimum > time to pick?
>
> To determine the extent of maturity many fruit attributes can be
> assessed (e.g. sugar and acid concentration, aroma and flavour
> profile, tannic ripeness). The graph simply shows the trends of each
> of these attributes as the fruit ripens. A fruit might have a high
> sugar content yet, upon tasting the skins, still have very harsh and
> astringent tannins. It may therefore be left on the plant to mature
> further. Of course it depends on the fruit as to what constitutes
> "very harsh" tannins and the taster is required to know what this
> means in terms of that particular fruit's stage of maturity.
>
> All these attributes will be covered more in the coming article. If
> you're interested, I'll post a message when it's complete.
>
> Ben
>
> Improved Winemaking
> http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter/

Ben
Where is your article?

Vinny

> Where is your article?

Not quite finished yet (just putting in some info on assays).
Shouldn't be too long before it's up on my website:
Improved Winemaking
http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter/

Ben