On 23 Nov, 10:45, michael > wrote:
> On 22 Nov, 19:25, pp > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 22, 7:02 am, michael > wrote:
>
> > > On 20 Nov, 18:12, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
> > > > On Nov 20, 11:51 am, michael > wrote:
>
> > > > > On 20 Nov, 13:18, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Nov 20, 7:07 am, michael > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Dear winemakers,
> > > > > > > I need some advice on how to mature and
> > > > > > > store wine in a
> > > > > > > reasonably organic way.I have been growing enough grapes in the last
> > > > > > > couple
> > > > > > > of years to make about 5 gallons of wine each year.I live in
> > > > > > > Herefordshire in
> > > > > > > the U.K.,and have a south facing limestone site which seems to ripen
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > grapes by about mid October.The only spray I use is wettable sulphur
> > > > > > > every
> > > > > > > two weeks or so throughout the growing period.I pick the
> > > > > > > grapes,discarding
> > > > > > > any rotten ones,and wash them carefully.I then proceed to crush and
> > > > > > > press
> > > > > > > the white grapes immediately and leave the reds to ferment on the
> > > > > > > skins for
> > > > > > > four or five days before pressing them.Fermentation usually begins
> > > > > > > within a
> > > > > > > day or so,and I keep the juices under an airlock.The fermentation
> > > > > > > usually
> > > > > > > lasts about four to five weeks,and I then rack the wine off the lees
> > > > > > > on a cold
> > > > > > > day.At this stage the wine tastes very promising-very fruity and not
> > > > > > > too sharp.
> > > > > > > Indeed,it is very drinkable!
>
> > > > > > > My problem comes when I leave the wine(in 1
> > > > > > > gallon
> > > > > > > demijohns)to mature for several months,and particularly with the
> > > > > > > whites.The
> > > > > > > wines seem to become much duller and lose their fruity taste and
> > > > > > > aroma.
> > > > > > > I keep the airlocks in the demijohns in this period in case of a
> > > > > > > period of warmer
> > > > > > > weather which could start off the fermentation again.
> > > > > > > For example,a gallon of Schonberger (a full
> > > > > > > flavoured white)
> > > > > > > harvested in October 2006 fermented out by end of November 2006,tasted
> > > > > > > extremely good until about May 2007.From then on the colour has
> > > > > > > slightly
> > > > > > > darkened,and the quality has gone to such an extent that the wine is
> > > > > > > now
> > > > > > > only just drinkable.
> > > > > > > At all stages,I do not use metabisulphite
> > > > > > > and am wondering
> > > > > > > whether this is the problem.My wife seems sensitive to sulphites in
> > > > > > > commercial
> > > > > > > wine,so I am trying not to use them-hence the careful washing of the
> > > > > > > grapes.
> > > > > > > I have now read that organic winemakers are allowed to use a small
> > > > > > > amount
> > > > > > > of sulphite,but I do not know when it is added or how much.
>
> > > > > > > Could someone please identify whether my
> > > > > > > problem appears
> > > > > > > to be lack of sulphites,and whether perhaps the dissolved oxygen in
> > > > > > > the juice
> > > > > > > at different handling stages is enough to cause the wine to
> > > > > > > deteriorate,even
> > > > > > > though the wine in an airlocked demijohn is basically closed to air.
>
> > > > > > > Thanks,Michael
>
> > > > > > Michael,
> > > > > > It's probably a combination of both. You use sulfur sprays so your
> > > > > > wine probably contains small quantities of sulfite anyway. If you
> > > > > > want to avoid it's use be very careful when racking to avoid splashing
> > > > > > of any kind; insert your racking drain all the way into the receiving
> > > > > > container and let it fill gently with no splashing. Try to limit
> > > > > > your racking to one or two before bottling. Some prefill containers
> > > > > > or bottles with CO2 to avoid oxygenation also.
>
> > > > > > I use sulfite in small amounts. 1/8 teaspoon of pot meta per 5 gallon
> > > > > > US is usually enough to protect a wine.
>
> > > > > > One thought might be to split your batches and sulfite one and not
> > > > > > sulfite the other to see how it fares; you would be able to see how it
> > > > > > affects your wife also without risking the whole batch.
>
> > > > > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > Thanks for your reply Joe.One further query.I do not normally put my
> > > > > wine into 75cl bottles at any stage,but keep it in a gallon demijohn
> > > > > and put it into carafes for fairly immediate consumption during the
> > > > > following week.I have bottled occasionally to give wine to one of my
> > > > > children,but the bottling then takes place when the wine is quite
> > > > > young.My query now is how to keep wine in a 1 gallon demijohn nice and
> > > > > fresh,and perhaps I will have to use sulphites at some level.What I do
> > > > > not understand is why wine maturing in oak barrels for some years
> > > > > seems to age well without oxidation-is it to do with the large volume
> > > > > of wine barrels compared with my smaller but impervious glass
> > > > > vessels.The problem I am having does not yet seem to affect my red
> > > > > wines,which have higher acidity.Do you also know how much sulphite is
> > > > > allow for organic wine makers?Thanks again.Michael
>
> > > > My wife doesn't like sulfites either so here is a link to explain the
> > > > rules in the States; I'm not sure about other countries.
>
> > > >http://www.organicconsumers.org/Organic/OrganicWine.cfm
>
> > > > Oak barrels are sealed and most wine stored in them is sulfited. As
> > > > to the gallon jugs, you may want o to break them up into 750 ml
> > > > bottles once you tap into one, filling them completely and using T top
> > > > stopper. (Tasting corks).
>
> > > > An old world way to minimize oxidation was to pour olive oil on top of
> > > > the wine to act as a seal. That is how my grandfather did it.
>
> > > > Higher acid usually means lower pH; the lower the pH the less sulfite
> > > > you need to protect wine; 0.8 ppm molecular is the commonly accepted
> > > > value for protection. That might be why your reds keep better.
>
> > > > If you decide to use sulfites we can explain that in more depth or
> > > > just google sulfites in this group.
>
> > > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Thanks for all of the replies,which have been most informative.I think
> > > that I have decided to use small additions of sulphite,since the
> > > keeping of the wine under CO2 does seem rather tricky.I also make
> > > fairly large volumes of cider(about 8% alcohol) and have had similar
> > > problems of oxidation of the cider when I try to keep it longer than
> > > one year.With the cider I will be racking off several 5 gallon
> > > fermenters during the season,and the thought of using a gas blanket
> > > during each transferance is not very appealing.I make about 120
> > > gallons of cider and 10 gallons of wine for my family's and friends
> > > consumption.The cider is generally very good until the longest kept
> > > volumes,and I had been considering using sulphites for these last
> > > batches.I was hoping that my wine would be used for special
> > > occasions,but at the moment the cider is much better.The grape juice
> > > does seem to be of good quality,even though I am aware that the grapes
> > > are grown in the UK.I have about 30 vines,which are common European
> > > hybrids and ripen the fruit(and wood) very well.I usually pick the
> > > grapes at a Brix level about 18,and at this level the acid levels are
> > > very manageable.Some of these varieties of grape regularly win top
> > > prizes at European blind tastings,so I am confident that my grape
> > > juice is excellent.In my first year,my first attempts were very
> > > good,but the wine was drunk around May,just 8 months after
> > > harvest.Since then I have been keeping the wine longer than 12
> > > months,and this is where the problem has arisen,and particularly for
> > > the whites.As I indicated in my earlier mail,I wash the grapes and
> > > ferment the grapes with the natural yeasts without any addition of
> > > sulphites.So I really wish to produce very good quality (I am even
> > > considering reducing grape yield in the future to improve juice
> > > quality)wine,which retains its fresh and fruity characteristics until
> > > drunk.The climate in southern England is variable from one year to the
> > > next,although climate change is giving us higher temperatures than 30
> > > years ago,and it is necessary to store wine(and cider ) for more than
> > > a year to cope with this.So I think that I will add up to 50 ppm of
> > > sulphite (10g/100ml gives a 5% solution and 5ml/gallon of wine gives
> > > 50ppm ?)using sodium metabisulphite,but I am still not clear when to
> > > add this.As I understand it,the primary fermentation takes 4-6
> > > weeks,and the secondary malolactic fermentation about twice as long.I
> > > read that sulphite in the wine at some level inhibits malolactic
> > > fermentation,which could be a disadvantage for me since in a cool
> > > season when the juice is more acidic,this secondary fermentation is
> > > valuable in reducing acidity.Malolactic fermentation needs a higher
> > > temperature to get started,and my storage area is typically 45-50F
> > > until the April/May .So there is a conflict in waiting too long for
> > > the secondary fermentation to be completed,such that oxidation sets
> > > in.I am therefore thinking of adding 50ppm sulphite to my wines (and
> > > cider) around the end of April,which is about 6 months after harvest.I
> > > hope that my understanding is beginning to get up to speed,but I would
> > > very much welcome further comments about whether what I am suggesting
> > > really will maintain the quality of my juice.Thanks again,Michael- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > First a question - are you sure your wines go through ML
>
> ...
>
> read more >>- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi again,I had a look at the sulphite table,which is for potassium
metabisulphite.My numbers were for sodium metabisulphite and for 50ppm
correspond to 2.5g of sodium metabisulphite/5 gallons.In your table
using the potassium salt,50 ppm corresponds to 1.64g of potassium
metabisulphite.It seems to me that maybe you should need a higher mass
of potassium salt to get the equivalent amount of sulphite to the
light sodium salt,but maybe my chemistry is failing me.So you could be
right and my numbers for sodium are too high.I will investigate
further! Cheers,Michael