When first racking the last wine I started (a cranberry - currant) into a secondary, I was glad to have enough to fill
the carboy to about 3/4 inch above the base of its neck. I've notcied over the last week that the level has dropped to
the base of the neck as the wine bubbles gently away to itself.

I mentioned this to a fellow wine maker who saw his wine rise over time. This is a new one to me since its the first
time I have had enough wine in the secondary to reach up the narrow neck at all, therefore providing a more accurate
sense of the level of the wine.

I thought before discussing it that it was due to the sugar being broken down and gas being released reducing the
overall level in my carboy. But with my friends testimony added into the equation, I now believe the change in apparent
volume must have been down to temperature as my friends wine rose as he added a brew-belt to avoid cold (and on
reflection mine fell as ambient temperatures fell slightly).

I pressume the change in volume is down to the volume of the bubbles in the wine at given points and think that the
bubbles must be bigger in warmer drinks (lowered viscosity of the fluid perhaps).

Can anyone confirm this or set me straight?

Jim

"jim" > wrote in message
...

> I thought before discussing it that it was due to the sugar being broken
> down and gas being released reducing the overall level in my carboy. But
> with my friends testimony added into the equation, I now believe the
> change in apparent volume must have been down to temperature as my friends
> wine rose as he added a brew-belt to avoid cold (and on reflection mine
> fell as ambient temperatures fell slightly).
>
> I pressume the change in volume is down to the volume of the bubbles in
> the wine at given points and think that the bubbles must be bigger in
> warmer drinks (lowered viscosity of the fluid perhaps).
>
> Can anyone confirm this or set me straight?
>
> Jim

I can only add an observation of my pomegranate wine now undergoing cold
stabilization. Well, almost cold -- it varies between 40 and 50F while I'm
waiting for the desert nights to drop back into the 20s. When I set the jugs
out in the garage at about 35 degrees F, I put enough fluid in the gas lock
to match the two lines. When the ambient temperature dropped to just under
30, the fluid pulled mostly into the jug side and at 45, it mostly all into
the atmosphere side. With all that said, you have to remember that ambient
atmospheric pressure will also have some effect. I can't tell you the
barometric pressure then, but I am going to track it for a while... as soon
as the temperature drops... I hope, I hope, I hope....

By the way, the wine is beautifully clear now. An HeNe laser pointer
shows hardly any more scattering than I would expect from the glass on both
sides. That's not scientific, but what the heck, it's my subjective
appraisal.

Good to hear it's cleared so well.

So it looks like it's temperature that causes it, pressumably acting on dissolved gases. If it were the fluid itself
reacting you'd imagine the tendancy would be towards expansion when cooling and contraction when warmer (like freezing
and melting wouldn't you?

Cheers for the observation.

Jim

"Casey Wilson" > wrote in message news:IP9yh.9804$MH2.8224@trnddc03...
>
> "jim" > wrote in message ...
>
>> I thought before discussing it that it was due to the sugar being broken down and gas being released reducing the
>> overall level in my carboy. But with my friends testimony added into the equation, I now believe the change in
>> apparent volume must have been down to temperature as my friends wine rose as he added a brew-belt to avoid cold (and
>> on reflection mine fell as ambient temperatures fell slightly).
>>
>> I pressume the change in volume is down to the volume of the bubbles in the wine at given points and think that the
>> bubbles must be bigger in warmer drinks (lowered viscosity of the fluid perhaps).
>>
>> Can anyone confirm this or set me straight?
>>
>> Jim
>
> I can only add an observation of my pomegranate wine now undergoing cold stabilization. Well, almost cold -- it
> varies between 40 and 50F while I'm waiting for the desert nights to drop back into the 20s. When I set the jugs out
> in the garage at about 35 degrees F, I put enough fluid in the gas lock to match the two lines. When the ambient
> temperature dropped to just under 30, the fluid pulled mostly into the jug side and at 45, it mostly all into the
> atmosphere side. With all that said, you have to remember that ambient atmospheric pressure will also have some
> effect. I can't tell you the barometric pressure then, but I am going to track it for a while... as soon as the
> temperature drops... I hope, I hope, I hope....
>
> By the way, the wine is beautifully clear now. An HeNe laser pointer shows hardly any more scattering than I would
> expect from the glass on both sides. That's not scientific, but what the heck, it's my subjective appraisal.
>

On Feb 7, 5:17 am, "jim" > wrote:
> Good to hear it's cleared so well.
>
> So it looks like it's temperature that causes it, pressumably acting on dissolved gases. If it were the fluid itself
> reacting you'd imagine the tendancy would be towards expansion when cooling and contraction when warmer (like freezing
> and melting wouldn't you?
>
> Cheers for the observation.
>
> Jim
>
> "Casey Wilson" > wrote in messagenews:IP9yh.9804$MH2.8224@trnddc03...
>
> > "jim" > wrote in ...
>
> >> I thought before discussing it that it was due to the sugar being broken down and gas being released reducing the
> >> overall level in my carboy. But with my friends testimony added into the equation, I now believe the change in
> >> apparent volume must have been down to temperature as my friends wine rose as he added a brew-belt to avoid cold (and
> >> on reflection mine fell as ambient temperatures fell slightly).
>
> >> I pressume the change in volume is down to the volume of the bubbles in the wine at given points and think that the
> >> bubbles must be bigger in warmer drinks (lowered viscosity of the fluid perhaps).
>
> >> Can anyone confirm this or set me straight?
>
> >> Jim
>
> > I can only add an observation of my pomegranate wine now undergoing cold stabilization. Well, almost cold -- it
> > varies between 40 and 50F while I'm waiting for the desert nights to drop back into the 20s. When I set the jugs out
> > in the garage at about 35 degrees F, I put enough fluid in the gas lock to match the two lines. When the ambient
> > temperature dropped to just under 30, the fluid pulled mostly into the jug side and at 45, it mostly all into the
> > atmosphere side. With all that said, you have to remember that ambient atmospheric pressure will also have some
> > effect. I can't tell you the barometric pressure then, but I am going to track it for a while... as soon as the
> > temperature drops... I hope, I hope, I hope....
>
> > By the way, the wine is beautifully clear now. An HeNe laser pointer shows hardly any more scattering than I would
> > expect from the glass on both sides. That's not scientific, but what the heck, it's my subjective appraisal.

You mean the opposite- right? Liquids contract when cooled and expand
when warm., except water at 4C when it starts becoming less dense
(that's an anomaly).

In this case (For example) say you have *exactly* 6 gallons of wine-
you measured this at 23C (a bit warm, but your carboy didn't
overflow). That means (approximating water) you had about 22712.4708
cm3 of wine. When that cooled down to 13C you'd have the same weight
(ignore CO2) but now 22669.5592 cm3 of wine- almost 43 cm3 of wine was
'lost. Assuming the neck of your carboy is a cylinder 2.5" wide then
you'd see an apparent drop of an inch or so. Yes keeping track of all
those different units is really fun...

No I meant it as I said it, but since my only first hand reference for cooling a liquid is water (and without having
looked at wikipedia) I thought all liquids probably expanded when frozen - if only because they are mainly made of
water. Thanks for pointing out that water is erroneous in doing so in the 0C - 4C range purdue I didn't know

I forgot momentarily I was internet savvy and could look stuff up. The thermometer is a good example of liquids
expanding when warm and contracting when cooling. From what I have read the lowered agitation oin a cooled liquid mean
that the molecules can sit closer together and therefore the liquid contracts.

If I could have google hardwired into my brain - with a nudge everytime I wondered something - I would be an even
happier man. Sadly I'll probably die a few generations years before it's comfortably possible, but I digress...

Thanks for your most educational replies.

Jim

> wrote in message oups.com...
> On Feb 7, 5:17 am, "jim" > wrote:
>> Good to hear it's cleared so well.
>>
>> So it looks like it's temperature that causes it, pressumably acting on dissolved gases. If it were the fluid itself
>> reacting you'd imagine the tendancy would be towards expansion when cooling and contraction when warmer (like
>> freezing
>> and melting wouldn't you?
>>
>> Cheers for the observation.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> "Casey Wilson" > wrote in messagenews:IP9yh.9804$MH2.8224@trnddc03...
>>
>> > "jim" > wrote in ...
>>
>> >> I thought before discussing it that it was due to the sugar being broken down and gas being released reducing the
>> >> overall level in my carboy. But with my friends testimony added into the equation, I now believe the change in
>> >> apparent volume must have been down to temperature as my friends wine rose as he added a brew-belt to avoid cold
>> >> (and
>> >> on reflection mine fell as ambient temperatures fell slightly).
>>
>> >> I pressume the change in volume is down to the volume of the bubbles in the wine at given points and think that
>> >> the
>> >> bubbles must be bigger in warmer drinks (lowered viscosity of the fluid perhaps).
>>
>> >> Can anyone confirm this or set me straight?
>>
>> >> Jim
>>
>> > I can only add an observation of my pomegranate wine now undergoing cold stabilization. Well, almost cold -- it
>> > varies between 40 and 50F while I'm waiting for the desert nights to drop back into the 20s. When I set the jugs
>> > out
>> > in the garage at about 35 degrees F, I put enough fluid in the gas lock to match the two lines. When the ambient
>> > temperature dropped to just under 30, the fluid pulled mostly into the jug side and at 45, it mostly all into the
>> > atmosphere side. With all that said, you have to remember that ambient atmospheric pressure will also have some
>> > effect. I can't tell you the barometric pressure then, but I am going to track it for a while... as soon as the
>> > temperature drops... I hope, I hope, I hope....
>>
>> > By the way, the wine is beautifully clear now. An HeNe laser pointer shows hardly any more scattering than I
>> > would
>> > expect from the glass on both sides. That's not scientific, but what the heck, it's my subjective appraisal.
>
> You mean the opposite- right? Liquids contract when cooled and expand
> when warm., except water at 4C when it starts becoming less dense
> (that's an anomaly).
>
> In this case (For example) say you have *exactly* 6 gallons of wine-
> you measured this at 23C (a bit warm, but your carboy didn't
> overflow). That means (approximating water) you had about 22712.4708
> cm3 of wine. When that cooled down to 13C you'd have the same weight
> (ignore CO2) but now 22669.5592 cm3 of wine- almost 43 cm3 of wine was
> 'lost. Assuming the neck of your carboy is a cylinder 2.5" wide then
> you'd see an apparent drop of an inch or so. Yes keeping track of all
> those different units is really fun...
>

The temperature-caused rise and fall of the wine in the carboy is a
prime reason why you want to keep the carboy in a room which has fairly
constant temperature... all the expand-contract cycles increase the
risk of sucking air into the carboy if the liquid level in the airlock
falls too far. And any air leak around the air lock seal becomes deadly
for air intrusion.

Gene

jim wrote:
> No I meant it as I said it, but since my only first hand reference for cooling a liquid is water (and without having
> looked at wikipedia) I thought all liquids probably expanded when frozen - if only because they are mainly made of
> water. Thanks for pointing out that water is erroneous in doing so in the 0C - 4C range purdue I didn't know
>
> I forgot momentarily I was internet savvy and could look stuff up. The thermometer is a good example of liquids
> expanding when warm and contracting when cooling. From what I have read the lowered agitation oin a cooled liquid mean
> that the molecules can sit closer together and therefore the liquid contracts.
>
> If I could have google hardwired into my brain - with a nudge everytime I wondered something - I would be an even
> happier man. Sadly I'll probably die a few generations years before it's comfortably possible, but I digress...
>
> Thanks for your most educational replies.
>
> Jim

Thanks for that Gene. Yes it's something I was completely unaware of too, until the last few days!

Jim

"gene" > wrote in message . net...
> The temperature-caused rise and fall of the wine in the carboy is a prime reason why you want to keep the carboy in a
> room which has fairly constant temperature... all the expand-contract cycles increase the risk of sucking air into
> the carboy if the liquid level in the airlock falls too far. And any air leak around the air lock seal becomes deadly
> for air intrusion.
>
> Gene
>
> jim wrote:
>> No I meant it as I said it, but since my only first hand reference for cooling a liquid is water (and without having
>> looked at wikipedia) I thought all liquids probably expanded when frozen - if only because they are mainly made of
>> water. Thanks for pointing out that water is erroneous in doing so in the 0C - 4C range purdue I didn't know
>>
>> I forgot momentarily I was internet savvy and could look stuff up. The thermometer is a good example of liquids
>> expanding when warm and contracting when cooling. From what I have read the lowered agitation oin a cooled liquid
>> mean that the molecules can sit closer together and therefore the liquid contracts.
>>
>> If I could have google hardwired into my brain - with a nudge everytime I wondered something - I would be an even
>> happier man. Sadly I'll probably die a few generations years before it's comfortably possible, but I digress...
>>
>> Thanks for your most educational replies.
>>
>> Jim