No I meant it as I said it, but since my only first hand reference for cooling a liquid is water (and without having
looked at wikipedia) I thought all liquids probably expanded when frozen - if only because they are mainly made of
water. Thanks for pointing out that water is erroneous in doing so in the 0C - 4C range purdue I didn't know

I forgot momentarily I was internet savvy and could look stuff up. The thermometer is a good example of liquids
expanding when warm and contracting when cooling. From what I have read the lowered agitation oin a cooled liquid mean
that the molecules can sit closer together and therefore the liquid contracts.

If I could have google hardwired into my brain - with a nudge everytime I wondered something - I would be an even
happier man. Sadly I'll probably die a few generations years before it's comfortably possible, but I digress...

Thanks for your most educational replies.

Jim

> wrote in message oups.com...
> On Feb 7, 5:17 am, "jim" > wrote:
>> Good to hear it's cleared so well.
>>
>> So it looks like it's temperature that causes it, pressumably acting on dissolved gases. If it were the fluid itself
>> reacting you'd imagine the tendancy would be towards expansion when cooling and contraction when warmer (like
>> freezing
>> and melting wouldn't you?
>>
>> Cheers for the observation.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> "Casey Wilson" > wrote in messagenews:IP9yh.9804$MH2.8224@trnddc03...
>>
>> > "jim" > wrote in ...
>>
>> >> I thought before discussing it that it was due to the sugar being broken down and gas being released reducing the
>> >> overall level in my carboy. But with my friends testimony added into the equation, I now believe the change in
>> >> apparent volume must have been down to temperature as my friends wine rose as he added a brew-belt to avoid cold
>> >> (and
>> >> on reflection mine fell as ambient temperatures fell slightly).
>>
>> >> I pressume the change in volume is down to the volume of the bubbles in the wine at given points and think that
>> >> the
>> >> bubbles must be bigger in warmer drinks (lowered viscosity of the fluid perhaps).
>>
>> >> Can anyone confirm this or set me straight?
>>
>> >> Jim
>>
>> > I can only add an observation of my pomegranate wine now undergoing cold stabilization. Well, almost cold -- it
>> > varies between 40 and 50F while I'm waiting for the desert nights to drop back into the 20s. When I set the jugs
>> > out
>> > in the garage at about 35 degrees F, I put enough fluid in the gas lock to match the two lines. When the ambient
>> > temperature dropped to just under 30, the fluid pulled mostly into the jug side and at 45, it mostly all into the
>> > atmosphere side. With all that said, you have to remember that ambient atmospheric pressure will also have some
>> > effect. I can't tell you the barometric pressure then, but I am going to track it for a while... as soon as the
>> > temperature drops... I hope, I hope, I hope....
>>
>> > By the way, the wine is beautifully clear now. An HeNe laser pointer shows hardly any more scattering than I
>> > would
>> > expect from the glass on both sides. That's not scientific, but what the heck, it's my subjective appraisal.
>
> You mean the opposite- right? Liquids contract when cooled and expand
> when warm., except water at 4C when it starts becoming less dense
> (that's an anomaly).
>
> In this case (For example) say you have *exactly* 6 gallons of wine-
> you measured this at 23C (a bit warm, but your carboy didn't
> overflow). That means (approximating water) you had about 22712.4708
> cm3 of wine. When that cooled down to 13C you'd have the same weight
> (ignore CO2) but now 22669.5592 cm3 of wine- almost 43 cm3 of wine was
> 'lost. Assuming the neck of your carboy is a cylinder 2.5" wide then
> you'd see an apparent drop of an inch or so. Yes keeping track of all
> those different units is really fun...
>