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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 03-02-2005, 08:24 PM
 
Posts: n/a
Default short term wine storage

Yeah, I've looked around on the newsgroup before asking, but it seems
most threads on this topic are regarding long-term storage. Or
regarding very expensive equipment ($50 for a nitrogen system is
expensive to me. Now. So far. Until I get more experienced and
knowledgeable and build a valueable (in effort and appreciation, not
nec' price) collection.)

I only just started getting into wine appreciation. Before last year my
experience has been pretty much any inexpensive white zinf'. Then I
went crazy and went all out and tried cabernet sauvingon. =) (Only to
recently find out it's kind of become the generic "safe" grape.) So,
now that I'm starting to really TASTE wine, and analyze, and pick and
choose, and build a volcabulary and experience, I'd like to also take
care in preserving wine. After all, I'm the only person in the
household who drinks wine (well, my wife will have a glass now and
then,) and so I'll usually have to put away half to 3/4 bottles into
the fridge. Even 24 hours later the taste seems to change.

So, what are some good, inexpensive suggestions for keeping an opened
bottle 2 to 3, maybe 4 days?

I saw the recommendation of using half-bottles. Not bad, I'll try that,
but doesn't seem very consistant.
I also saw something on Private Preserve inert gas replacement. That
sounds like a good idea. A little expensive, for now, but if it's the
best option then I think that's worth it.
What about those $12 cheapy vacuum pump tops? Good enough to keep for a
couple of days?
And finally, refridgeration. Good idea? Bad idea? Only in conjunction
with a particular tupe of storage? I understand refidgeration can slow
the oxidation, but, does it contribute to any other changes?

Thanks for any suggestions!
Liam


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Old 03-02-2005, 10:16 PM
DaleW
 
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I'd say the immediate filling of a 375 ml bottle (or multiple 187
bottles), which is recorked and refrigerated, is about the fastest,
cheapest, and most dependable option.

  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 03-02-2005, 11:18 PM
Art Stratemeyer
 
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Hi Liam,

First .. welcome to the great journey of discovering wine .. something
that can last a lifetime.

You didn't mention the vintage of the wines .. nor their stature ..
Grand Cru as opposed to vin de pays.

Betsy and I seem to continually have 2-3 bottles of reds open on the
counter at any given time. These are young wines ... often what we
call "quaffers" and candidly for a 2-3 day period it works just fine
for us.

Now .. if you are talking about better and/or older wines ... or where
you want to be able retaste a young wine in a day or two to truly see
if your notes earlier in the week were the same. Then ... Dale is
right on about the 1/2 bottles.

Great excuse to go buy a couple of inexpensive dessert wines in 1/2
bottle format.




Art Stratemeyer
=============================
http://www.stratsplace.com
A Community Celebration the Joy of Wine,Gardening and the Arts

Cellar! Wine Software
http://www.cellarwinesoftware.com
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Old 03-02-2005, 11:25 PM
Midlife
 
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in article ,
at wrote on 2/3/05 12:24 PM:

Yeah, I've looked around on the newsgroup before asking, but it seems
most threads on this topic are regarding long-term storage. Or
regarding very expensive equipment ($50 for a nitrogen system is
expensive to me. Now. So far. Until I get more experienced and
knowledgeable and build a valueable (in effort and appreciation, not
nec' price) collection.)

I only just started getting into wine appreciation. Before last year my
experience has been pretty much any inexpensive white zinf'. Then I
went crazy and went all out and tried cabernet sauvingon. =) (Only to
recently find out it's kind of become the generic "safe" grape.) So,
now that I'm starting to really TASTE wine, and analyze, and pick and
choose, and build a volcabulary and experience, I'd like to also take
care in preserving wine. After all, I'm the only person in the
household who drinks wine (well, my wife will have a glass now and
then,) and so I'll usually have to put away half to 3/4 bottles into
the fridge. Even 24 hours later the taste seems to change.

So, what are some good, inexpensive suggestions for keeping an opened
bottle 2 to 3, maybe 4 days?

I saw the recommendation of using half-bottles. Not bad, I'll try that,
but doesn't seem very consistant.
I also saw something on Private Preserve inert gas replacement. That
sounds like a good idea. A little expensive, for now, but if it's the
best option then I think that's worth it.
What about those $12 cheapy vacuum pump tops? Good enough to keep for a
couple of days?
And finally, refridgeration. Good idea? Bad idea? Only in conjunction
with a particular tupe of storage? I understand refidgeration can slow
the oxidation, but, does it contribute to any other changes?

Thanks for any suggestions!
Liam


I've used a VacuVin pump for years and find that it, combined with
refrigeration, seems to keep wine relatively well for 4 or 5 days. The pump
costs around US$9 or $10 and a couple of extra stoppers are US$3.

Re-filling smaller bottles, logically speaking, would seem to be as good or
better since it keeps the wine free of oxygen, and using a real cork could
be more effective than the VacuVin stopper. What doesn't compute for me is
how good this method is if the left-over wine doesn't completely fill the
smaller bottle. Also, if the left-over quantity is more than the smaller
bottle holds, you are forced to drink the rest ;o) or fill another small
bottle only part way. I think I'd vote for VacuVin unless your taste
sensitivity finds a recognizable difference with the smaller bottle method.

Never tried the nitrogen method.

Your comment that Cabernet is the "safe" grape could just start something
here. Let's see.

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Old 03-02-2005, 11:33 PM
CabFan
 
Posts: n/a
Default


On 3-Feb-2005, Midlife wrote:

Yeah, I've looked around on the newsgroup before asking, but it seems
most threads on this topic are regarding long-term storage. Or
regarding very expensive equipment ($50 for a nitrogen system is
expensive to me. Now. So far. Until I get more experienced and
knowledgeable and build a valueable (in effort and appreciation, not
nec' price) collection.)

I only just started getting into wine appreciation. Before last year my
experience has been pretty much any inexpensive white zinf'. Then I
went crazy and went all out and tried cabernet sauvingon. =) (Only to
recently find out it's kind of become the generic "safe" grape.) So,
now that I'm starting to really TASTE wine, and analyze, and pick and
choose, and build a volcabulary and experience, I'd like to also take
care in preserving wine. After all, I'm the only person in the
household who drinks wine (well, my wife will have a glass now and
then,) and so I'll usually have to put away half to 3/4 bottles into
the fridge. Even 24 hours later the taste seems to change.

So, what are some good, inexpensive suggestions for keeping an opened
bottle 2 to 3, maybe 4 days?

I saw the recommendation of using half-bottles. Not bad, I'll try that,
but doesn't seem very consistant.
I also saw something on Private Preserve inert gas replacement. That
sounds like a good idea. A little expensive, for now, but if it's the
best option then I think that's worth it.
What about those $12 cheapy vacuum pump tops? Good enough to keep for a
couple of days?
And finally, refridgeration. Good idea? Bad idea? Only in conjunction
with a particular tupe of storage? I understand refidgeration can slow
the oxidation, but, does it contribute to any other changes?

Thanks for any suggestions!
Liam


I've used a VacuVin pump for years and find that it, combined with
refrigeration, seems to keep wine relatively well for 4 or 5 days. The
pump
costs around US$9 or $10 and a couple of extra stoppers are US$3.

Re-filling smaller bottles, logically speaking, would seem to be as good
or
better since it keeps the wine free of oxygen, and using a real cork could
be more effective than the VacuVin stopper. What doesn't compute for me is
how good this method is if the left-over wine doesn't completely fill the
smaller bottle. Also, if the left-over quantity is more than the smaller
bottle holds, you are forced to drink the rest ;o) or fill another small
bottle only part way. I think I'd vote for VacuVin unless your taste
sensitivity finds a recognizable difference with the smaller bottle
method.

Never tried the nitrogen method.


Our personal preference is to just drink the whole darn bottle, but that's
easier with two than with one person.... the next best thing (in my opinion)
is a combination of both the half-bottle route and the Vaccu-vin route. I
open a full bottle and immediately pour into the half-bottle until its full.
Then I use the Vaccu-vin to seal it and then put it the refrigerator.

The rationale behind this is that in the half-bottle, there is less air on
the surface and the vaccu-vin has a much better chance of getting most of it
out. In a half-full full-bottle, the vaccu-vin just doesn't cut it, except
maybe for overnight.

Good luck,
Gary


  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-02-2005, 12:02 AM
Andrew Goldfinch
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Liam
What I do depends on what I'm drinking. If it is something quite young
and vibrant, I will just pop the cork back in and leave it on the bench
(or in the fridge for whites). I work in an international hotel and do
this regularly with wine samples to see how these wine will develop
when we pour them by the glass. If I am opening a bottle that has some
age on it (private stuff most often) and I know I won't drink it all
then I will pour off into smaller bottles and re seal. I always have a
few of the 187ml screw cap mini bar wine bottles kicking around for
this eventuality. I open the bottle in question, decant and fill 1 (or
2) of the small bottles to the very brim, screw the cap back on tightly
and pop in the fridge. It's also important to bring the wine back to a
decent drinking temperature before drinking.
Cheers Andrew

  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-02-2005, 12:02 AM
Ed Rasimus
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 3 Feb 2005 12:24:38 -0800, wrote:

Yeah, I've looked around on the newsgroup before asking, but it seems
most threads on this topic are regarding long-term storage. Or
regarding very expensive equipment ($50 for a nitrogen system is
expensive to me. Now. So far. Until I get more experienced and
knowledgeable and build a valueable (in effort and appreciation, not
nec' price) collection.)


You've already had a few good answers from some very knowledgeable
contributors. Let me throw in my two Lincolns worth.

First, at your stage (based on your true confessions), there's no need
to spend a lot of money on equipment--beyond a quality corkscrew.

You can get some very interesting wines and build background by
staying at the low price end. Find a nearby dealer with a broad stock
and establish a conversational relationship. Follow his/her guide.

I only just started getting into wine appreciation. Before last year my
experience has been pretty much any inexpensive white zinf'. Then I
went crazy and went all out and tried cabernet sauvingon. =) (Only to
recently find out it's kind of become the generic "safe" grape.) So,
now that I'm starting to really TASTE wine, and analyze, and pick and
choose, and build a volcabulary and experience, I'd like to also take
care in preserving wine. After all, I'm the only person in the
household who drinks wine (well, my wife will have a glass now and
then,) and so I'll usually have to put away half to 3/4 bottles into
the fridge. Even 24 hours later the taste seems to change.


I'm not sure that trying some Cabernet Sauvignon is going "all
out"--you can get cabs ranging from "two buck Chuck" to several
hundred dollar Bordeaux. For now, just explore the menu that's
available and within your budget. If you like reds, focus there. If
white is more to your liking, go there.

Buy a book or two on wine. "Wine for Dummies" is easily readable,
loaded with info and won't have you struggling to memorize the
classifications of Bordeaux or the difference between a Grand and a
Premier Cru.

So, what are some good, inexpensive suggestions for keeping an opened
bottle 2 to 3, maybe 4 days?


Cover the opening to keep the flies out. You won't damage the wines
you are starting with. Limit the retention to your own suggestion of
"2 to 3, maybe 4" days.

Since most of what you will be trying will be younger wines, you can
actually experience some of the development of the wine over time.
Does it taste better when first opened, after a couple of hours, the
next day or two days later. Some wine will change notably--not go bad,
just change.

I saw the recommendation of using half-bottles. Not bad, I'll try that,
but doesn't seem very consistant.


It will really shorten your available choices.

I also saw something on Private Preserve inert gas replacement. That
sounds like a good idea. A little expensive, for now, but if it's the
best option then I think that's worth it.
What about those $12 cheapy vacuum pump tops? Good enough to keep for a
couple of days?


Don't worry about it.

And finally, refridgeration. Good idea? Bad idea? Only in conjunction
with a particular tupe of storage? I understand refidgeration can slow
the oxidation, but, does it contribute to any other changes?


You minimize the flies in the refrigerator, but for red wine, you will
render it too cold to drink. Better just cork or cap and leave on the
counter. (I've got a couple of nice silver drop-in stoppers that I
use, but simply re-inserting the original cork will do just as well.)

Refrigeration will slow oxidation as you state, but be sure to let the
wine warm up before drinking or you'll miss most of the flavors.

Finally, don't limit yourself to Cab--get some Zinfandel (not White
Zin, but REAL zinfandel), some Syrah/Shiraz, some Sangiovese (think
Italian), some Pinot Noir, and then expand the list to other
varietals.

Have fun and report back.

P.S. Start raving about the wine when you taste and pretty soon the
wife will be helping you solve the left-over problem.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-02-2005, 12:08 AM
Cwdjrx _
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Many wines are sold in 1/2 bottles, although you may have to go to a
large wine store to find a variety of them. I often buy Champagne in
half bottles for serving a glass or two to 2 people before a meal. Many
Bordeaux wines also are available in half bottles. For your cooking and
everyday wine you may be able to find a box wine that will keep a long
time in the refrigerator. At one time only very cheap wines were put in
boxes, but now there are a few that are good enough for cooking and even
everyday drinking with a quick meal.

My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase
from my email address. Then add . I do not
check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response.

  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-02-2005, 12:13 AM
Andrew Goldfinch
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Liam
What I do depends on what I'm drinking. If it is something quite young
and vibrant, I will just pop the cork back in and leave it on the bench
(or in the fridge for whites). I work in an international hotel and do
this regularly with wine samples to see how these wine will develop
when we pour them by the glass. If I am opening a bottle that has some
age on it (private stuff most often) and I know I won't drink it all
then I will pour off into smaller bottles and re seal. I always have a
few of the 187ml screw cap mini bar wine bottles kicking around for
this eventuality. I open the bottle in question, decant and fill 1 (or
2) of the small bottles to the very brim, screw the cap back on tightly
and pop in the fridge. It's also important to bring the wine back to a
decent drinking temperature before drinking.
Cheers Andrew

  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-02-2005, 12:15 AM
Andrew Goldfinch
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Liam
What I do depends on what I'm drinking. If it is something quite young
and vibrant, I will just pop the cork back in and leave it on the bench
(or in the fridge for whites). I work in an international hotel and do
this regularly with wine samples to see how these wine will develop
when we pour them by the glass. If I am opening a bottle that has some
age on it (private stuff most often) and I know I won't drink it all
then I will pour off into smaller bottles and re seal. I always have a
few of the 187ml screw cap mini bar wine bottles kicking around for
this eventuality. I open the bottle in question, decant and fill 1 (or
2) of the small bottles to the very brim, screw the cap back on tightly
and pop in the fridge. It's also important to bring the wine back to a
decent drinking temperature before drinking.
Cheers Andrew



  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-02-2005, 12:30 AM
Hunt
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article .com,
says...

Yeah, I've looked around on the newsgroup before asking, but it seems
most threads on this topic are regarding long-term storage. Or
regarding very expensive equipment ($50 for a nitrogen system is
expensive to me. Now. So far. Until I get more experienced and
knowledgeable and build a valueable (in effort and appreciation, not
nec' price) collection.)

I only just started getting into wine appreciation. Before last year my
experience has been pretty much any inexpensive white zinf'. Then I
went crazy and went all out and tried cabernet sauvingon. =) (Only to
recently find out it's kind of become the generic "safe" grape.) So,
now that I'm starting to really TASTE wine, and analyze, and pick and
choose, and build a volcabulary and experience, I'd like to also take
care in preserving wine. After all, I'm the only person in the
household who drinks wine (well, my wife will have a glass now and
then,) and so I'll usually have to put away half to 3/4 bottles into
the fridge. Even 24 hours later the taste seems to change.

So, what are some good, inexpensive suggestions for keeping an opened
bottle 2 to 3, maybe 4 days?

I saw the recommendation of using half-bottles. Not bad, I'll try that,
but doesn't seem very consistant.
I also saw something on Private Preserve inert gas replacement. That
sounds like a good idea. A little expensive, for now, but if it's the
best option then I think that's worth it.
What about those $12 cheapy vacuum pump tops? Good enough to keep for a
couple of days?
And finally, refridgeration. Good idea? Bad idea? Only in conjunction
with a particular tupe of storage? I understand refidgeration can slow
the oxidation, but, does it contribute to any other changes?

Thanks for any suggestions!
Liam


Personal preference: the vaccuvin-type vacuum closures PLUS refrigeration is
about as good as it gets for short-term wine saving. With whites, allow the
bottle to warm a bit, when you take it out of the fridge - with reds allow it
warm even more. The wine will change slightly, but I often have a bottle
stored thusly for up to five days. The changes are slight and only careful
comparison plus a good taste-memory will allow you to tell MUCH difference.

Hunt

  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-02-2005, 12:47 AM
LRW
 
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Default

Ed Rasimus wrote:

I'm not sure that trying some Cabernet Sauvignon is going "all
out"--you can get cabs ranging from "two buck Chuck" to several

--snip--
Finally, don't limit yourself to Cab--get some Zinfandel (not White
Zin, but REAL zinfandel), some Syrah/Shiraz, some Sangiovese (think
Italian), some Pinot Noir, and then expand the list to other
varietals.

Have fun and report back.

P.S. Start raving about the wine when you taste and pretty soon the
wife will be helping you solve the left-over problem.


Thanks for the reply (everyone.)
Yeah, the "going all out" comment was sort of tongue-in-cheek. At the
time I thought it was a risky move, but I've since learned that Cabernet
Sauvignon is pretty...opposite of risky, thanks to an article in Wine
Enthusiast and Wine For Dummies. Over the last few months I've been
trying all different grapes and regions. My favorites so far:
Saisons de Vine "L'automne" 2002 by Copain Wines, Sutter Home Pinot
Grigiot 2003, and Luis Felipe Edwards Sauvignon Blanc 2003.
(I've started keeping a journal.)

My wife never liked wine before I started finding out the proper
temperatures and glasses. I had no idea the glass could make such a huge
difference! I thought, yeah whatever, it all goes in the mouth. How's
the glass make a difference.
So we had our own taste test with a plastic tumbler, a drinking glass, a
champaign flute (wedding gift) and a generic Bourdeux glass. Wow! The
differences were amazing, and it's not psychosomatic because I was a
complete disbeliever in the possibility.

Soon after we went and bought a few Riedels and Spieglaus. =) I can
even, half the time depending on the wine, tell a difference between the
Riedel and Spieglau (sp) despite using similar shape and volume. One day
my goal is to have at least one individual glass for every wine type.
(The Riedel catalog is a very dangerous thing. *grin*)

Thanks again, all, for the comments!
Liam
  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-02-2005, 01:22 AM
Hunt
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article [email protected]_s53, says...

Ed Rasimus wrote:

I'm not sure that trying some Cabernet Sauvignon is going "all
out"--you can get cabs ranging from "two buck Chuck" to several

--snip--
Finally, don't limit yourself to Cab--get some Zinfandel (not White
Zin, but REAL zinfandel), some Syrah/Shiraz, some Sangiovese (think
Italian), some Pinot Noir, and then expand the list to other
varietals.

Have fun and report back.

P.S. Start raving about the wine when you taste and pretty soon the
wife will be helping you solve the left-over problem.


Thanks for the reply (everyone.)
Yeah, the "going all out" comment was sort of tongue-in-cheek. At the
time I thought it was a risky move, but I've since learned that Cabernet
Sauvignon is pretty...opposite of risky, thanks to an article in Wine
Enthusiast and Wine For Dummies. Over the last few months I've been
trying all different grapes and regions. My favorites so far:
Saisons de Vine "L'automne" 2002 by Copain Wines, Sutter Home Pinot
Grigiot 2003, and Luis Felipe Edwards Sauvignon Blanc 2003.
(I've started keeping a journal.)

My wife never liked wine before I started finding out the proper
temperatures and glasses. I had no idea the glass could make such a huge
difference! I thought, yeah whatever, it all goes in the mouth. How's
the glass make a difference.
So we had our own taste test with a plastic tumbler, a drinking glass, a
champaign flute (wedding gift) and a generic Bourdeux glass. Wow! The
differences were amazing, and it's not psychosomatic because I was a
complete disbeliever in the possibility.

Soon after we went and bought a few Riedels and Spieglaus. =) I can
even, half the time depending on the wine, tell a difference between the
Riedel and Spieglau (sp) despite using similar shape and volume. One day
my goal is to have at least one individual glass for every wine type.
(The Riedel catalog is a very dangerous thing. *grin*)

Thanks again, all, for the comments!
Liam


To address your comments Riedel and the shapes - I think I am in the
minority in this NG regarding the positive aspects of the various shapes/
sizes, but I have become sold on a few of them. Like you, I initially was
skeptical regarding the "need" for having so many different glasses. I started
with a set of 12ea basic red & white glasses from a mid-range house, when we
were married. About the time that I got hooked on wine, I did a similar
experiment to yours with the white glass and the red glass, using a US CA
Chard. Wow, the wine really opened up in the "red" glass, but was quite closed
in the glass sold for the "whites." No contest! I've long since replaced all
of the white wine glasses, but still use the old red glasses for everyday
whites around the house. I invested in several complete sets (nowadays in lots
of either 24, or 48, depending on style), mostly Riedel, with some Waterford
from their "Tasting Series." I was happy with all of my glasses, and thought
that the Riedel hype was just that - hype, until I attended a Riedel tasting a
few years back. They had just introduced their "Montrachet" white wine glass,
that looked rather like a red Burg glass, but more open at the mouth. I tasted
a big US/CA Chard in it, then in the Riedel Chardonnay glass. Again with the
WOW. I was immediately sold on that glass, as we do a lot of big whites from
FR, US, OZ, and IT. When using these, some of my friends ask why I am using a
red wine glass for a white, knowing that I am a glassware freak. I usually
just give them a pour of the Corton, or whatever in each the Montrachet glass,
and the Riedel Chard glass. I have yet to have a guest who could not tell the
difference. Now, most did not rush out and buy a set, as I did, but no one has
ever argued the point, just maybe the worth. Now, I have yet to do a full
comparison of ALL of the glasses with each glasses' specific wine, but this
one incident did make an even more firm believer out of me. The full catalog
is probably major overkill, but there is so much to be said for "proper"
glassware. Unfortunately, I always handwash the glasses the next day after a
party, so that limits my dinners, etc. to Friday or Saturday, as a full dinner
can require 2-3 hours of glass washing/drying/storing - bummer!!!!

Hunt

  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-02-2005, 04:00 AM
Tom S
 
Posts: n/a
Default


wrote in message
oups.com...
I'll usually have to put away half to 3/4 bottles into
the fridge. Even 24 hours later the taste seems to change.

So, what are some good, inexpensive suggestions for keeping an opened
bottle 2 to 3, maybe 4 days?

I saw the recommendation of using half-bottles. Not bad, I'll try that,
but doesn't seem very consistent.


Immediately decanting _gently_ (no splashing) into a smaller bottle until
it's _completely_ full and capping tight is really the best for storing
opened wine. It'll keep for months or longer that way.

I also saw something on Private Preserve inert gas replacement. That
sounds like a good idea. A little expensive, for now, but if it's the
best option then I think that's worth it.


Too expensive. The only advantage it has over decanting to smaller bottles
is that it isn't necessary to fill the bottle to exclude all gas.

What about those $12 cheapy vacuum pump tops? Good enough to keep for a
couple of days?


A couple of days? Sure. Best in the 'fridge.

And finally, refrigeration. Good idea? Bad idea? Only in conjunction
with a particular tupe of storage? I understand refidgeration can slow
the oxidation, but, does it contribute to any other changes?


Good idea as an adjunct to any of the above methods - especially Vac-U-Vin,
which does leave some air behind in the bottle. The only drawbacks are (1)
having to warm the wine to room temperature in the case of a red, and (2)
precipitation of tartrate crystals in wines that are not cold stabilized.
The latter isn't really a big deal, since the wine is easily decanted from
the crystals, and the flavor isn't affected.

Tom S


  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-02-2005, 08:08 AM
Steve Slatcher
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Just to add to other comment...

If you pour into a half bottle and vacu-vin it, just make sure you
don't over-fill the bottle or you finish up vacu-vining your wine out
of the bottle. Here speaks the voice of experience :-(

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher


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long-term storage of starter Maria Sourdough 9 23-01-2004 11:57 PM


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