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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
donovan10
 
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Although not a newbie to wine, I am a newbie to this group but couldn't
resist so please bear with me.

Enjoyed a lovely homecooked meal of spicy Thai shrimp (don't mistake spicy
for hot) on Sunday. Served a Hugel Gewerztraminer 2000, Tradition Hugel.
Had everything you would expect from a well made Gewerz except it was 13%
alcohol.

I am sufficiently familiar with the technical reasons for higher alcohol
content (had hoped we could limit it to California Zin but alas...) but
Alsace doesn't fit.

I live in hope that German rieslings and Alsatian Geverz will return to the
lower alcohol levels that made their wines so enjoyable.

Ken Donovan


  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
jcoulter
 
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"donovan10" > wrote in
le.rogers.com:

> Although not a newbie to wine, I am a newbie to this group but
> couldn't resist so please bear with me.
>
> Enjoyed a lovely homecooked meal of spicy Thai shrimp (don't mistake
> spicy for hot) on Sunday. Served a Hugel Gewerztraminer 2000,
> Tradition Hugel. Had everything you would expect from a well made
> Gewerz except it was 13% alcohol.
>
> I am sufficiently familiar with the technical reasons for higher
> alcohol content (had hoped we could limit it to California Zin but
> alas...) but Alsace doesn't fit.
>
> I live in hope that German rieslings and Alsatian Geverz will return
> to the lower alcohol levels that made their wines so enjoyable.
>
> Ken Donovan
>
>
>


Alsatian wines in general are finished alot drier (with resulting higher
alcohol leverls) than their German counterparts. Go East a few miles for
wines with more of the style that you seek.
  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
st.helier
 
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Ken Donovan wrote.....

> Enjoyed a lovely homecooked meal of spicy Thai shrimp
> (don't mistake spicy for hot) on Sunday.


> Served a Hugel Gewerztraminer 2000, Tradition Hugel.
> Had everything you would expect from a well made Gewerz
> except it was 13% alcohol.
>
> I am sufficiently familiar with the technical reasons for higher alcohol
> content (had hoped we could limit it to California Zin but alas...) but
> Alsace doesn't fit.
>
> I live in hope that German rieslings and Alsatian Geverz will return to

the
> lower alcohol levels that made their wines so enjoyable.


I think that you are slightly off track, Ken.

Most of those gorgeous rieslings from the Mosel-Saar-Ruwer are still
anything from 7-10% alcohol, as they always have been, and, in my
experience, because Alsatian wines are generally fermented dry (or slightly
off dry) most have an alcohol content in that 12-13% range - again, as they
always have.

Vintage differences aside, I do not think that there has been any
significant, recent change in these wines.

With the greatest of respect it is *Gewurztraminer*

st.helier


  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
James Silverton
 
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"st.helier" > wrote in message
...
> Ken Donovan wrote.....
>deletions> >

Served a Hugel Gewerztraminer 2000, Tradition Hugel.
>>>>>>>>>>More deletions>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

> With the greatest of respect it is *Gewurztraminer*
>
> st.helier
>


Of course to a pedant like myself (g), that's an open invitation to
ask if there is not an umlaut on the u, as in Gewürztraminer but I
won't even take bets that the letter will arrive properly even if it
looks good at the moment!


--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA

  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
st.helier
 
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Touché




  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
st.helier
 
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Sorry James

Touché withdrawn.

If "Gewurztraminer" (minus umlaut) is good enough for Trimbach (and the OP
was talking about Alsace!) then it is good enough for me.

st.helier


  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Max Hauser
 
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My stepmother, from rural Washington state in the US, pronouced it
"Ga-WURTS-a-meener" but appreciated it very well anyway, whatever it was
called and wherever it grew, and cooked insightful accompaniments.


"st.helier" in ...
> Touché withdrawn.
>
> If "Gewurztraminer" (minus umlaut) is good enough for Trimbach (and the OP
> was talking about Alsace!) then it is good enough for me.
>
> st.helier



Wimsey: "Bang. You're dead, Bunter."
Bunter: "Very good, my lord."


  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Emery Davis
 
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On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:49:03 -0700, "Max Hauser" > said:

] My stepmother, from rural Washington state in the US, pronouced it
] "Ga-WURTS-a-meener" but appreciated it very well anyway, whatever it was
] called and wherever it grew, and cooked insightful accompaniments.
]
[]

Max, a gentle and respectful reminder: top posting is discouraged. My thanks
in advance and apologies if there is some technical reason, as with webtv users.

-E


--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies
  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
James Silverton
 
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"st.helier" > wrote in message
...
> Sorry James
>
> Touchi withdrawn.
>
> If "Gewurztraminer" (minus umlaut) is good enough for Trimbach (and

the OP
> was talking about Alsace!) then it is good enough for me.
>
> st.helier
>


I guess I must agree with your rebuttal as far as the usage of the
Trimbach company is concerned but what can you expect of the French
(g)? German language web pages always seem to use the umlaut but I'm
not familiar enough with Alsace to say what people actually use there.

Best wishes,

Jim

  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bill Spohn
 
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>Touché withdrawn.

You guys are getting a bit touché feely.....
>
>If "Gewurztraminer" (minus umlaut) is good enough for Trimbach


You know what they say - you can't make an umlaut without breaking........oh
never mind ;-)

FWIW I have seen the umlaut omitted on other Gewurz as well.


  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mark Lipton
 
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Bill Spohn wrote:

>>Touché withdrawn.

>
>
> You guys are getting a bit touché feely.....
>
>>If "Gewurztraminer" (minus umlaut) is good enough for Trimbach

>
>
> You know what they say - you can't make an umlaut without breaking........oh
> never mind ;-)


Ouch, ouch, ouch!!! Bill, that's awful.

Good job,
Mark Lipton
  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mark Lipton
 
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James Silverton wrote:


> I guess I must agree with your rebuttal as far as the usage of the
> Trimbach company is concerned but what can you expect of the French
> (g)? German language web pages always seem to use the umlaut but I'm
> not familiar enough with Alsace to say what people actually use there.


Of course, Jim. To a speaker of German, "gewürz" (umlaut included)
means "spice" and is used as a modifier to the grape name "traminer"
(which in turn refers to its place of origin, Termeno in Alto Aldige aka
the Südtirol).

Mark Lipton
  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
RV WRLee
 
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<snip>
>FWIW I have seen the umlaut omitted on other Gewurz as well.
>


FWIW, I'm a bit challenged at the keyboard and I don't use grammatically
correct accents (like umlaut's) when I'm responding on my news reader since for
some reason my keyboard changes won't work unless I'm using a word processing
software (like MS Word). I don't mean any disrespect or ignorance just a bit
of laziness I guess.


Bi!!
  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vilco [out]
 
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Mark Lipton wrote:

> Of course, Jim. To a speaker of German, "gewürz" (umlaut
> included) means "spice" and is used as a modifier to the
> grape name "traminer" (which in turn refers to its place
> of origin, Termeno in Alto Aldige aka the Südtirol).


By the way... if somebody can put his hands on a bottle
of 2003 Goldmuskateller Trocken from the Tramin winery
(full name "produttori di termeno - tramin"), try it out!
It's fantastic! For my tastes, it's worth two-three times
its price. Here in italy (200km south of alto adige) it
costs around 6.50 euro.
Great flowery nose, apricot leading voer tropical fruits
like banana and (a hint of) pineapple.
Good sweetness and acidity, long finish.
A QPR winner.

Vilco


  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
James Silverton
 
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"RV WRLee" > wrote in message
...
> <snip>
> >FWIW I have seen the umlaut omitted on other Gewurz as well.
> >

>
> FWIW, I'm a bit challenged at the keyboard and I don't use

grammatically
> correct accents (like umlaut's) when I'm responding on my news

reader since for
> some reason my keyboard changes won't work unless I'm using a word

processing
> software (like MS Word). I don't mean any disrespect or ignorance

just a bit
> of laziness I guess.
>


I'd go along with that too since I don't usually bother with accents
etc. in informal writing! Some of the replies with umlauts did not
survive the net anyway(g). It seems that the French don't bother with
them and my bit of pedantry was just a reponse to a correction :-)
Just to add fuel to the fire, I suppose we might use the alternative
German spelling, Gewuertztraminer, like the Swiss but I don't ever
recall seeing that on a bottle.

Jim.



  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
Anders Tørneskog
 
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"Mark Lipton" > skrev i melding
...
>
> Ouch, ouch, ouch!!!

Ouch? Here we would say Oeuf, oeuf... Much more fitting, I think
:-) Anders


  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
winemonger
 
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Emery Davis > wrote in message news:
>
> Max, a gentle and respectful reminder: top posting is discouraged. My thanks
> in advance and apologies if there is some technical reason, as with webtv users.
>
> -E


Forgive my posting ignorance, but what does this mean?

-emily (winemonger)
  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Xyzsch
 
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>If "Gewurztraminer" (minus umlaut) is good enough for Trimbach (and the OP
>was talking about Alsace!) then it is good enough for me.


st. helier

I just check my bottle of Trimbach (in the fridge), and you are right, no
umlaut. But the Riverview (Ontario) Gewurz. I have been sipping tonite HAS the
umlaut. Although, I don't include it, because I do not have the character set.

Tom Schellberg (no umlaut on this name)
  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
Max Hauser
 
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"jcoulter" in ...
> (winemonger) wrote:
> om:
>
> > Emery Davis > wrote in message news:
> >>
> >> Max, a gentle and respectful reminder: top posting is discouraged.
> >> My thanks in advance and apologies if there is some technical reason,
> >> as with webtv users.
> >>
> >> -E

> >
> > Forgive my posting ignorance, but what does this mean?
> >
> > -emily (winemonger)

>
> Proper netiquette requires that posters put their comments either at the
> end of the previous matterial, as I am doing, or interspersing it through
> the text at relevant points ( of course it also calls for judiciaous
> trimming of text to get rid of matter no longer in debate.(hence only the
> relevant data shown above.)



This advice is constructively offered and taken, though I would submit that
the situation has a basis, not just dogma; and admits some flexibility. (I
did so submit, in email several hours ago to Emery Davis and such other
frequent recent posters as I could readily find addresses for.)

This particular Netiquette preference is comparatively recent and a
reaction, I believe, to newbie habits. Netiquette must adapt to changing
times. The first public Netiquette guide I used was written late 1982 (I
may have it on paper still; one of the people behind it is quoted below) and
evolved by 1995 into RFC1855, the standard public document on the subject
and the starting point for most later "Netiquette" guidance. My email today
was an earnest feedback inviting further comment (please email me if you
want a copy).

Following Netiquette of MUCH longer standing, I plan to keep that discussion
offline and summarize later here if appropriate. Or to quote a 1982
posting:

> Message-ID: <bnews.tpdcvax.220>
> Newsgroups: net.nlang,net.misc
> Posted: Wed Nov 24 17:25:42 1982
>
> ... Let's all follow good netiquette; send me mail with your definition

(and references) and I'll summarize soon.
>
> Thanks,
> Bob Van Valzah
> (...!decvax!ittvax!tpdcvax!bobvan)


(Sorry, narrative flow required top-posting for that quotation. :-)

Best to all -- Max Hauser


  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
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Mark Lipton > wrote:

> Of course, Jim. To a speaker of German, "gewürz" (umlaut
> included) means "spice" and is used as a modifier to the grape
> name "traminer" (which in turn refers to its place of origin,
> Termeno in Alto Aldige aka the Südtirol).


The name refers to the German name of the village, Tramin. Italian
names of these places only date from post 1919/20.

M.
  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
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"James Silverton" > wrote:

> I suppose we might use the alternative German spelling,
> Gewuertztraminer,

^
|

Please - there is no "t" here! It's plain gewurz, Gewürz or
Gewuerz - but never gewurtz (nor gewertz).

> like the Swiss


They rarely do that except for capital letters, as in
"Oesterreich" for Austria.

> but I don't ever recall seeing that on a bottle.


Of course not.

M.
  #24 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
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"James Silverton" > wrote:

>> With the greatest of respect it is *Gewurztraminer*


> Of course to a pedant like myself (g), that's an open invitation
> to ask if there is not an umlaut on the u, as in Gewürztraminer
> [...]


It's very easy: It's "gewurztraminer" on the left, and
"Gewürztraminer" on the right bank of the Rhine.

M.
  #25 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dale Williams
 
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Default OT accents (was Rant)

(another post that seems to have floated out into nowheresville, some points
have already been covered)

It doesn't really bother me if people don't use accents, I didn't myself for
years. But someone (I believe Herr Pronay) posted a while back on Allchars, a
freeware program available at http://allchars.zwolnet.com/
It really is a great program, that makes putting in accents easy and intuitive.
You just hit control, then a logical two-letter combination ("d" & "g" to make
the degree sign- 45°; "e" and " ' " to make an acute e - é , and so on). I find
it easier than remembering Windows character map codes. Of course, if you have
a special keyboard, even easier. Now that it's not a pain, I try to use (I
still slip, especially if I don't have a bottle handy).

As to Gewürztraminer, I checked the Trimach SdR and then the other Alsace
bottles I have (Burn, Zind-Humbrecht, and Frick) -none use the umlaut. I did
notice the '98 ZH Herrenweg de Turckheim had 15% ABV! The Trimbach '98 SdR is
14%.

Like the original poster, I do lament the thrust towards ever-riper,
higher-alcohol wines. But in general I don't think there's been a huge shift in
Alsace that way (though ZH certainly picks late). I think that Mosel-Saar-Ruwer
still has the traditional paradigm, but there's always been vintage variations.
What can you do in vintages like 2001? You either increase alcohol a little or
sweetness.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply


  #26 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ken Blake
 
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Default OT accents (was Rant)

In ,
Dale Williams > typed:

> It doesn't really bother me if people don't use accents, I

didn't
> myself for years. But someone (I believe Herr Pronay) posted a

while
> back on Allchars, a freeware program available at
> http://allchars.zwolnet.com/



It was probably me. I've been a fan of Allchars for years and
often mention it to someone looking for such a facility.


--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup


  #27 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vino
 
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Default OT accents (was Rant)

On 22 Apr 2004 17:21:48 GMT, amnspam (Dale Williams)
wrote:

>It doesn't really bother me if people don't use accents, I didn't myself for
>years. But someone (I believe Herr Pronay) posted a while back on Allchars, a
>freeware program available at
http://allchars.zwolnet.com/
>It really is a great program, that makes putting in accents easy and intuitive.
>You just hit control, then a logical two-letter combination ("d" & "g" to make
>the degree sign- 45°; "e" and " ' " to make an acute e - é , and so on). I find
>it easier than remembering Windows character map codes. Of course, if you have
>a special keyboard, even easier. Now that it's not a pain, I try to use (I
>still slip, especially if I don't have a bottle handy).

Thanks for posting this. I used to have this program but when I
changed computers it got lost in the shuffle and I couldn't remember
the web site to get it back.
>
>As to Gewürztraminer, I checked the Trimach SdR and then the other Alsace
>bottles I have (Burn, Zind-Humbrecht, and Frick) -none use the umlaut. I did
>notice the '98 ZH Herrenweg de Turckheim had 15% ABV! The Trimbach '98 SdR is
>14%.

I have long had the sense that, when it came to Gewurztraminer, the
Germans used the umlaut and the French didn't, although I've never
done a scientific study to support this belief. FWIW, I looked at a
bottle of Columbia Valley Gewurtztraminer and found that the spelling
on the front label omitted the umlaut and the label on the back used
it. Go figure.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
letters and numbers of
e-mail address.
  #28 (permalink)   Report Post  
Anders Tørneskog
 
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"Michael Pronay" > skrev i melding
...
> "James Silverton" > wrote:
>
> It's very easy: It's "gewurztraminer" on the left, and
> "Gewürztraminer" on the right bank of the Rhine.
>

It would be nice to study a left bank label from before 1918...
Elsass-Lothringen was German then, you know...
:-) Anders


  #29 (permalink)   Report Post  
Anders Tørneskog
 
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Default OT accents (was Rant)


"Dale Williams" > skrev i melding
...
>
> Like the original poster, I do lament the thrust towards ever-riper,
> higher-alcohol wines. But in general I don't think there's been a huge

shift in
> Alsace that way (though ZH certainly picks late). I think that

Mosel-Saar-Ruwer
> still has the traditional paradigm, but there's always been vintage

variations.
> What can you do in vintages like 2001? You either increase alcohol a

little or
> sweetness.
>

There has in general been quite a shift towards drier wines and consequently
more alcoholic wines in Mosel. I used to claim for several years that no
good dry wines could be made in Mosel but find myself buying more and more
of some quite nice specimens :-), for instance a Graacher Domprobst Riesling
Spätlese Trocken 2002, with 12%, from Kees-Kieren...
Anders


  #30 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
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"Ken Blake" > wrote:

>> It doesn't really bother me if people don't use accents, I
>> didn't myself for years. But someone (I believe Herr Pronay)
>> posted a while back on Allchars, a freeware program available
>> at http://allchars.zwolnet.com/


> It was probably me. I've been a fan of Allchars for years and
> often mention it to someone looking for such a facility.


Actually we both did, you first on 3 May 2000, I on 2 November
2002, you supported the choice the same day, and I repeated the
recommendation on 12 March 2003.

M.


  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
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Default OT accents (was Rant)

Vino > wrote:

> I have long had the sense that, when it came to Gewurztraminer,
> the Germans used the umlaut and the French didn't, although I've
> never done a scientific study to support this belief.


No need for a specific study - it's the pronunciation/spelling
rules.

M.
  #32 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ken Blake
 
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Default OT accents (was Rant)

In ,
Michael Pronay > typed:

> "Ken Blake" > wrote:
>
>>> It doesn't really bother me if people don't use accents, I
>>> didn't myself for years. But someone (I believe Herr Pronay)
>>> posted a while back on Allchars, a freeware program available
>>> at http://allchars.zwolnet.com/

>
>> It was probably me. I've been a fan of Allchars for years and
>> often mention it to someone looking for such a facility.

>
> Actually we both did, you first on 3 May 2000, I on 2 November
> 2002, you supported the choice the same day, and I repeated the
> recommendation on 12 March 2003.



Thanks for the correction. Unlike you, I didn't check Google.

--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup


  #33 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vino
 
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On 22 Apr 2004 21:02:22 GMT, Michael Pronay > wrote:

>Vino > wrote:
>
>> I have long had the sense that, when it came to Gewurztraminer,
>> the Germans used the umlaut and the French didn't, although I've
>> never done a scientific study to support this belief.

>
>No need for a specific study - it's the pronunciation/spelling
>rules.
>

I figured that much. My point, which I admittedly did not make clear,
was which spelling is used on French (effectively Alsatian in this
case) labels versus what is used on German labels. I suspect your
answer applies in either case.

Is any GW made in Austria? If it is, I suspect the umlaut is used
there also.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
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e-mail address.
  #34 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
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Vino > wrote:

> I figured that much. My point, which I admittedly did not make
> clear, was which spelling is used on French (effectively
> Alsatian in this case) labels versus what is used on German
> labels. I suspect your answer applies in either case.


Exactly: "u" und France, "ü" in Germany.

> Is any GW made in Austria?


Yes.

> If it is, I suspect the umlaut is used there also.


Yes, and also on the German labels in Südtirol (Alto Adige).

M.
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