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Old 27-09-2008, 08:13 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default Eurocave froze bottles

Youch!!! Went into my eurocave last night for the first time in some
weeks (no time for drinking lately) and the bottles on the back of
bottom shelf frozen!!!!
in cave...with instant read was 17F !!!!

Two bottles with popped corks...others iced over.

Defrosted slowly.

Is this wine dead meat???


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Old 27-09-2008, 08:33 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default Eurocave froze bottles

On Sep 27, 3:13�pm, wrote:
Youch!!! �Went into my eurocave last night for the first time in some
weeks (no time for drinking lately) and the bottles on the back of
bottom shelf frozen!!!!
in cave...with instant read was 17F !!!!

Two bottles with popped corks...others iced over.

Defrosted slowly.

Is this wine dead meat???


If cork is compromised, you of course have oxidation issues. Drink
ASAP
IF cork seal isn't damaged, wine should be fine.
You'll probably see some tartrate crystals precipitate out.
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Old 27-09-2008, 09:22 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default Eurocave froze bottles

On Sep 27, 2:13*pm, wrote:
Youch!!! *Went into my eurocave last night for the first time in some
weeks (no time for drinking lately) and the bottles on the back of
bottom shelf frozen!!!!
in cave...with instant read was 17F !!!!

Two bottles with popped corks...others iced over.

Defrosted slowly.


I doubt if much damage has been done to the wine, provided the corks
have not been forced completely out. Since the freezing causes
expansion, considerable pressure likely was built up that caused
partial or complete expulsion of a few corks. Of course any bottles
with completely popped corks should be dealt with at once. It might be
best to leave them frozen, cover the neck with something, and put them
in a freezer until you are ready to thaw and drink them. Very little
air can penetrate the frozen wine. For those in which corks have moved
just a bit, I would try pressing the corks in after the temperature is
back to normal to see if they will move. If they will not move,
likely little or no air will be pulled back into the bottle, but it
would be safest to drink such wines in the fairly near future.

For the bottles for which the corks have not moved, I doubt if any
serious damage has been done. In general, lowering of temperature
slows down chemical reactions. The extreme cold may have caused
sediment to form, mainly tartrates, that is less soluble in cold wine
than in wine at normal temperature. Some of the tartrates may go back
into solution over the long haul. Many wines form tartrates if not
cold stabilized by chilling them to a low temperature briefly, before
separation of the wine and bottling. This likely does nothing useful
other than preventing sediment from forming in wine before it is sold
and causing alarm and rejected sales by some. Some wines are not cold
stabilized, such as many of the best German late harvest wines. You
should see the large amount of tartrate crystals in some of the better
German 1976 late harvest Rieslings. There is even a story, perhaps an
urban myth, that one US wholesaler tried to reject a shipment of fine
German wine because he thought the wine had broken glass in it!.

There are over-under temperature alarms that I suggest anyone with
much valuable wine should have in their cellar or wine storage unit.
As you found out, malfunctions of refrigeration equipment can happen.
Usually the unit quits cooling. Howeve,r in rare cases, the unit cools
all of the time as apparently happened in your case. Sometimes a relay
hangs closed and causes this problem. A malfunction of a thermostat,
especially an electronic one, also could cause this problem.

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Old 27-09-2008, 09:36 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default Eurocave froze bottles

Thanks to both of you.... I will look into an alarm....might be nice
add on for Eurocave to consider....linked to net software that would
send a txt to cellphone!!!

Maybe an offline to side by side frozen/unfrozen bottles blind....

JB


On Sep 27, 4:22*pm, cwdjrxyz wrote:
On Sep 27, 2:13*pm, wrote:

Youch!!! *Went into my eurocave last night for the first time in some
weeks (no time for drinking lately) and the bottles on the back of
bottom shelf frozen!!!!
in cave...with instant read was 17F !!!!


Two bottles with popped corks...others iced over.


Defrosted slowly.


I doubt if much damage has been done to the wine, provided the corks
have not been forced completely out. Since the freezing causes
expansion, considerable pressure likely was built up that caused
partial or complete expulsion of a few corks. Of course any bottles
with completely popped corks should be dealt with at once. It might be
best to leave them frozen, cover the neck with something, and put them
in a freezer until you are ready to thaw and drink them. Very little
air can penetrate the frozen wine. For those in which corks have moved
just a bit, I would try pressing the corks in after the temperature is
back to normal to see if they will *move. If they will not move,
likely little or no air will be pulled back into the bottle, but it
would be safest to drink such wines in the fairly near future.

For the bottles for which the corks have not moved, I doubt if any
serious damage has been done. In general, lowering of temperature
slows down chemical reactions. The extreme cold may have caused
sediment to form, mainly tartrates, that is less soluble in cold wine
than in wine at normal temperature. Some of the tartrates may go back
into solution over the long haul. Many wines form tartrates if not
cold stabilized by chilling them to a low temperature briefly, before
separation of the wine and bottling. This likely does nothing useful
other than preventing sediment from forming in wine before it is sold
and causing alarm and rejected sales by some. Some wines are not cold
stabilized, such as many of the best German late harvest wines. You
should see the large amount of tartrate crystals in some of the better
German 1976 late harvest Rieslings. There is even a story, perhaps an
urban myth, that one US wholesaler tried to reject a shipment of fine
German wine because he thought the wine had broken glass in it!.

There are over-under temperature alarms that I suggest anyone with
much valuable wine should have in their cellar or wine storage unit.
As you found out, malfunctions of refrigeration equipment can happen.
Usually the unit quits cooling. Howeve,r in rare cases, the unit cools
all of the time as apparently happened in your case. Sometimes a relay
hangs closed and causes this problem. A malfunction of a thermostat,
especially an electronic one, also could cause this problem.


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Old 28-09-2008, 03:53 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default Eurocave froze bottles

On Sep 27, 4:36�pm, wrote:

Maybe an offline to side by side frozen/unfrozen bottles blind....


Initially I just saw jbo..... , and didn't pay attention. Now that I
see where you are posting from, I think an offline is a brilliant
idea, you should invite the spouses of colleagues!


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Old 28-09-2008, 05:35 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default Eurocave froze bottles

How on earth could it get that cold? Even if the compressor ran
continuously I doubt that the cooling unit blows air anywhere near
freezing... And given that it's September it's really not freezing
weather in most of the world.

I'd love to hear an explanation.


Shaun Eli
www.BrainChampagne.com
Brain Champagne: Clever Comedy for Smart Minds (sm)
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Old 28-09-2008, 08:52 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default Eurocave froze bottles

On Sep 28, 11:35*am, Shaun Eli
wrote:
How on earth could it get that cold? *Even if the compressor ran
continuously I doubt that the cooling unit blows air anywhere near
freezing... And given that it's September it's really not freezing
weather in most of the world.

I'd love to hear an explanation.


The Eurocave unit takes in and exhausts condenser air inside the
house. Thus the temperature it sees is whatever temperature is kept in
the house which likely does not exceed 80 F, at least for most people
who can afford to collect and age wine.. The temperature of the air in
the wine storage area is lowered as it enters the AC, passes over the
cooling coils, and reenters the storage area again. The temperature
drop of the air passing through the AC cooling coils depends on the
BTU capacity of the AC, the input temperature of the air taken in, and
the velocity of the air stream. In fact many room ACs that take in and
exhaust outdoors air to their condenser will freeze up in very hot and
humid weather if the AC is on most of the time and the velocity of the
air through the cooling coils is too low. If the wine storage area is
well insulated so that heat loss is very low, the temperature will
lower to even well below freezing until the point at which the energy
input by the AC equals that of the heat loss by the storage unit
unless a thermostat turns off the AC when a desired lower temperature
is reached. In fact commercial AC companies have no trouble designing
a very large room at or well below freezing for storage of meat,
frozen food etc. When one goes to a temperature near or below
freezing, some method of defrosting must be used to prevent ice build
up on the cooling coils. To calculate the lowest temperature of a
storage unit or room that is possible, one would have to know the
cooling capacity of the AC unit as a function of temperature, the air
temperature for air passed over the condenser, and the heat loss of
the storage area. If the maker of the storage unit skimps on the
capacity of the AC, it may be on nearly all of the time and not be
able to reach freezing in the storage area. If the capacity of the AC
is much larger than required for the storage area, it will be on for
only short periods with a thermostat and may produce storage
temperatures that are far below freezing without thermostat control.
ACs are usually designed with a lower temperature range in mind. A
room AC might not be called on for much under 71 F. A storage room for
frozen food might need to keep the storage room at 0 F or below.
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Old 29-09-2008, 04:39 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default Eurocave froze bottles

On Sep 28, 12:35�pm, Shaun Eli
wrote:
How on earth could it get that cold? �Even if the compressor ran
continuously I doubt that the cooling unit blows air anywhere near
freezing... And given that it's September it's really not freezing
weather in most of the world.

I'd love to hear an explanation.

Shaun Eliwww.BrainChampagne.com
Brain Champagne: �Clever Comedy for Smart Minds (sm)


Cwdjrxyz beat me to it. Just as compressor on your fridge keeps one
part of unit at 40F, and freezer at 0-10F, it all comes down to
thermostat. If thermostat goes, compressor just keeps chilling and
chilling, It might normally blow around 40 to 45 to keep around 58.
But if it it keeps recirculating air that is already cold, the air
temp it blows will steadily drop.
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Old 29-09-2008, 04:40 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default Eurocave froze bottles

On Sep 28, 12:35�pm, Shaun Eli
wrote:
How on earth could it get that cold? �Even if the compressor ran
continuously I doubt that the cooling unit blows air anywhere near
freezing... And given that it's September it's really not freezing
weather in most of the world.

I'd love to hear an explanation.

Shaun Eliwww.BrainChampagne.com
Brain Champagne: �Clever Comedy for Smart Minds (sm)


PS I've probably heard at least a half-dozen frozen wines in wine cave
stories.
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Old 30-09-2008, 09:28 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Posts: 53
Default Eurocave froze bottles

Thanks. I'm surprised that for a fridge that doesn't need to get
colder than 50 degrees F they'd use a compressor that's capable of
getting down below freezing. Because even if you keep running the
same air over the coils, if the coils are at 40 degrees nothing's
gonna freeze.


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