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Old 10-02-2008, 05:55 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,554
Default TN: dinner with the Liptons (Burg, Bdx, Rhne, Loire,Wachau etc)

Mark and Jean Lipton were in town, and Betsy and I were delighted to
join them for dinner. A planned slight detour by Lincoln Center turned
into a minor traffic nightmare, so we were a bit late getting to
Cendrillon in SoHo. We arrived to find Mark, Jean, the real Jay
Miller, and the renowned SFJoe (who I'd never met before) patiently
waiting.

A nice assortment of wines followed. I was a tad out of sorts, and
didn't take notes at the time, but following are some impressions. I
will say the food at Cendrillon was excellent. I had an extraordinary
goat curry with chutney and rice pancakes, followed by a tasty oxtail
dish with an unusual fermented shrimp paste. Betsy had the lumpia,
which I thought was like an egg roll (based on my one previous
Filipino meal), but was more of a big wrap filled with veggies. Her
main was very good shortribs with an excellent sauce. We brought most
of our wines, but list was VERY interesting and well-priced for NY.

The white wines:
1964 Huet Vouvray Sec
This was actually a petillant, though label said Sec not Brut. Some
petillance remaining, baked apples and lemon, good length, very
interesting wine. B+/B

1991 Alzinger "Durnsteiner Hollerin" Riesling Smaragd
I found this a delightful surprise. From an "off" vintage, proof that
good producers make good wine. In this case very good wine. Lighter
than any Wachau Smaragd I've run across, sprightly wine with apple,
peach, and ginger flavors. Delicate hints of petrol, though on a
revisit later in night that was even less apparent. I quite enjoyed
this. B+/A-

1998 Franz Hirtzberger "Singerriedel" Riesling Smaragd
Much bigger Riesling. Dry, but with a ripe fruit profile. Peach,
honey, apricot. Some earth and smoke notes. Powerful, good, but I
think I preferred the Alzinger from a lesser vintage overall. B+

2002 Puffeney Arbois Savagnin
Wild nose that reminds me of dried mushrooms with a hint of overripe
sheeps cheese, not quite like anything I ever smelled before. Palate
is much more conventional, rather easy drinking, though edging on hot.
I think others liked more than I did, I found the nose intriguing, but
not inviting. To be a true geek maybe one has to learn to love oddball
wines like this (and Vin Jaune, and obscure Sherries), but I'll just
remain a bystander. Nice to watch, but not my fave to drink. B-/C+

1996 Soucherie "Clos des Perrieres" Savennieres
My other contribution. Very muted at first, almost dilute. Picks up
weight and flavor with time. Apple, wax, and lemon rind, good acidity,
nice wine. I like, but don't find the depth I had in '96 Closel or
even the regular Baumard (good bottles). B

The red wines
1978 Haut-Bailly
I think this is the 3rd time I've had one of these from Jay's stash.
Jay thinks this bottle substandard, but I quite enjoyed (especially at
end of evening). Not at all a blockbuster, some might find thin, but I
found elegant and balanced. Good acidity, bright red-toned fruit, lots
of cedar and tobacco aromas. Maybe could use a lighter more density
and length, but a very nice wine with food. B+

1998 Drouhin "Clos des Chenes" Volnay
This is showing a tad rough and coarse right now. Big, good dark berry
fruit, high acidity, some tannins. I think this is probably the best
wine we had this night, but really not ready, and less fun to taste
now. Everyone keeps saying the '98s are drinking well, but I keep
thinking they need more time. This night this one is a B/B-. Bet in
5-10 I'll be thinking a variance on an A.

1998 Grivot Vosne-Romanee
OK, so here is a '98 that is drinking ok. Clean cherry fruit, a little
hint of kirsch (though not at all overripe), some spice. Not a big
wine, but a nice dinner companion. B/B+

1997 Ogier Cote-Rotie
I think I liked this more than others. Friendly puppy dog of a
Northern Rhone, round blackberry and cherry fruit, some smoked meat
and floral notes. Ferric/mineral edge on finish, very good. B+/A-

Fun night, even if I was beat. Nice to see Mark, Jean, and Jay again,
good to meet Joe. I liked lots of the wines, and loved the food. The
owner/chef joined us for a few tastes, and there was no corkage charge
on the bill. Even with a lavish tip it was a fairly cheap evening.
I'll be back to the restaurant (as I noted, nice list).

Grade disclaimer: I'm a very easy grader, basically A is an excellent
wine, B a good wine, C mediocre. Anything below C means I wouldn't
drink at a party where it was only choice. Furthermore, I offer no
promises of objectivity, accuracy, and certainly not of consistency.

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Old 10-02-2008, 06:29 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,554
Default TN: dinner with the Liptons (Burg, Bdx, Rhne, Loire,Wachau etc)

On Feb 10, 1:55�pm, DaleW wrote:
Mark and Jean Lipton were in town, and Betsy and I were delighted to
join them for dinner. A planned slight detour by Lincoln Center turned
into a minor traffic nightmare, so we were a bit late getting to
Cendrillon in SoHo. We arrived to find Mark, Jean, the real Jay
Miller, and the renowned SFJoe (who I'd never met before) patiently
waiting.

A nice assortment of wines followed. I was a tad out of sorts, and
didn't take notes at the time, but following are some impressions. I
will say the food at Cendrillon was excellent. I had an extraordinary
goat curry with chutney and rice pancakes, followed by a tasty oxtail
dish with an unusual fermented shrimp paste. Betsy had the lumpia,
which I thought was like an egg roll (based on my one previous
Filipino meal), but was more of a big wrap filled with veggies. Her
main was very good shortribs with an excellent sauce. We brought most
of our wines, but list was VERY interesting and well-priced for NY.

The white wines:
1964 Huet Vouvray Sec
This was actually a petillant, though label said Sec not Brut. Some
petillance remaining, baked apples and lemon, good length, very
interesting wine. B+/B

1991 Alzinger "Durnsteiner Hollerin" Riesling Smaragd
I found this a delightful surprise. From an "off" vintage, proof that
good producers make good wine. In this case very good wine. Lighter
than any Wachau Smaragd I've run across, sprightly wine with apple,
peach, and ginger flavors. Delicate hints of petrol, though on a
revisit later in night that was even less apparent. I quite enjoyed
this. B+/A-

1998 Franz Hirtzberger "Singerriedel" �Riesling Smaragd
Much bigger Riesling. Dry, but with a ripe fruit profile. Peach,
honey, apricot. Some earth and smoke notes. Powerful, good, �but I
think I preferred the Alzinger from a lesser vintage overall. B+

2002 Puffeney Arbois Savagnin
Wild nose that reminds me of dried mushrooms with a hint of overripe
sheeps cheese, not quite like anything I ever smelled before. Palate
is much more conventional, rather easy drinking, though edging on hot.
I think others liked more than I did, I found the nose intriguing, but
not inviting. To be a true geek maybe one has to learn to love oddball
wines like this (and Vin Jaune, and obscure Sherries), but I'll just
remain a bystander. Nice to watch, but not my fave to drink. B-/C+

1996 Soucherie "Clos des Perrieres" Savennieres
My other contribution. Very muted at first, almost dilute. Picks up
weight and flavor with time. Apple, wax, and lemon rind, good acidity,
nice wine. I like, but don't find the depth I had in '96 Closel or
even the regular Baumard (good bottles). B

The red wines
1978 Haut-Bailly
I think this is the 3rd time I've had one of these from Jay's stash.
Jay thinks this bottle substandard, but I quite enjoyed (especially at
end of evening). Not at all a blockbuster, some might find thin, but I
found elegant and balanced. Good acidity, bright red-toned fruit, lots
of cedar and tobacco aromas. Maybe could use a lighter more density
and length, but a very nice wine with food. B+

1998 Drouhin "Clos des Chenes" Volnay
This is showing a tad rough and coarse right now. Big, good dark berry
fruit, high acidity, some tannins. I think this is probably the best
wine we had this night, but really not ready, and less fun to taste
now. Everyone keeps saying the '98s are drinking well, but I keep
thinking they need more time. This night this one is a B/B-. Bet in
5-10 I'll be thinking a variance on an A.

1998 Grivot Vosne-Romanee
OK, so here is a '98 that is drinking ok. Clean cherry fruit, a little
hint of kirsch (though not at all overripe), some spice. Not a big
wine, but a nice dinner companion. B/B+

1997 Ogier Cote-Rotie
I think I liked this more than others. Friendly puppy dog of a
Northern Rhone, round blackberry and cherry fruit, some smoked meat
and floral notes. Ferric/mineral edge on finish, very good. B+/A-

Fun night, even if I was beat. Nice to see Mark, Jean, and Jay again,
good to meet Joe. I liked lots of the wines, and loved the food. The
owner/chef joined us for a few tastes, and there was no corkage charge
on the bill. Even with a lavish tip it was a fairly cheap evening.
I'll be back to the restaurant (as I noted, nice list).

Grade disclaimer: I'm a very easy grader, basically A is an excellent
wine, B a good wine, C mediocre. Anything below C means I wouldn't
drink at a party where it was only choice. Furthermore, I offer no
promises of objectivity, accuracy, and certainly not of consistency.


oh yeah, and a '95 Luneau-Papin L' d'Or was corked.
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Old 10-02-2008, 08:37 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,930
Default TN: dinner with the Liptons (Burg, Bdx, Rhne, Loire,Wachau etc)

On Feb 10, 1:29*pm, DaleW wrote:
On Feb 10, 1:55�pm, DaleW wrote:





Mark and Jean Lipton were in town, and Betsy and I were delighted to
join them for dinner. A planned slight detour by Lincoln Center turned
into a minor traffic nightmare, so we were a bit late getting to
Cendrillon in SoHo. We arrived to find Mark, Jean, the real Jay
Miller, and the renowned SFJoe (who I'd never met before) patiently
waiting.


A nice assortment of wines followed. I was a tad out of sorts, and
didn't take notes at the time, but following are some impressions. I
will say the food at Cendrillon was excellent. I had an extraordinary
goat curry with chutney and rice pancakes, followed by a tasty oxtail
dish with an unusual fermented shrimp paste. Betsy had the lumpia,
which I thought was like an egg roll (based on my one previous
Filipino meal), but was more of a big wrap filled with veggies. Her
main was very good shortribs with an excellent sauce. We brought most
of our wines, but list was VERY interesting and well-priced for NY.


The white wines:
1964 Huet Vouvray Sec
This was actually a petillant, though label said Sec not Brut. Some
petillance remaining, baked apples and lemon, good length, very
interesting wine. B+/B


1991 Alzinger "Durnsteiner Hollerin" Riesling Smaragd
I found this a delightful surprise. From an "off" vintage, proof that
good producers make good wine. In this case very good wine. Lighter
than any Wachau Smaragd I've run across, sprightly wine with apple,
peach, and ginger flavors. Delicate hints of petrol, though on a
revisit later in night that was even less apparent. I quite enjoyed
this. B+/A-


1998 Franz Hirtzberger "Singerriedel" �Riesling Smaragd
Much bigger Riesling. Dry, but with a ripe fruit profile. Peach,
honey, apricot. Some earth and smoke notes. Powerful, good, �but I
think I preferred the Alzinger from a lesser vintage overall. B+


2002 Puffeney Arbois Savagnin
Wild nose that reminds me of dried mushrooms with a hint of overripe
sheeps cheese, not quite like anything I ever smelled before. Palate
is much more conventional, rather easy drinking, though edging on hot.
I think others liked more than I did, I found the nose intriguing, but
not inviting. To be a true geek maybe one has to learn to love oddball
wines like this (and Vin Jaune, and obscure Sherries), but I'll just
remain a bystander. Nice to watch, but not my fave to drink. B-/C+


1996 Soucherie "Clos des Perrieres" Savennieres
My other contribution. Very muted at first, almost dilute. Picks up
weight and flavor with time. Apple, wax, and lemon rind, good acidity,
nice wine. I like, but don't find the depth I had in '96 Closel or
even the regular Baumard (good bottles). B


The red wines
1978 Haut-Bailly
I think this is the 3rd time I've had one of these from Jay's stash.
Jay thinks this bottle substandard, but I quite enjoyed (especially at
end of evening). Not at all a blockbuster, some might find thin, but I
found elegant and balanced. Good acidity, bright red-toned fruit, lots
of cedar and tobacco aromas. Maybe could use a lighter more density
and length, but a very nice wine with food. B+


1998 Drouhin "Clos des Chenes" Volnay
This is showing a tad rough and coarse right now. Big, good dark berry
fruit, high acidity, some tannins. I think this is probably the best
wine we had this night, but really not ready, and less fun to taste
now. Everyone keeps saying the '98s are drinking well, but I keep
thinking they need more time. This night this one is a B/B-. Bet in
5-10 I'll be thinking a variance on an A.


1998 Grivot Vosne-Romanee
OK, so here is a '98 that is drinking ok. Clean cherry fruit, a little
hint of kirsch (though not at all overripe), some spice. Not a big
wine, but a nice dinner companion. B/B+


1997 Ogier Cote-Rotie
I think I liked this more than others. Friendly puppy dog of a
Northern Rhone, round blackberry and cherry fruit, some smoked meat
and floral notes. Ferric/mineral edge on finish, very good. B+/A-


Fun night, even if I was beat. Nice to see Mark, Jean, and Jay again,
good to meet Joe. I liked lots of the wines, and loved the food. The
owner/chef joined us for a few tastes, and there was no corkage charge
on the bill. Even with a lavish tip it was a fairly cheap evening.
I'll be back to the restaurant (as I noted, nice list).


Grade disclaimer: I'm a very easy grader, basically A is an excellent
wine, B a good wine, C mediocre. Anything below C means I wouldn't
drink at a party where it was only choice. Furthermore, I offer no
promises of objectivity, accuracy, and certainly not of consistency.


oh yeah, and a '95 Luneau-Papin L' d'Or was corked. - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


FWIW, I opened a 1998 Girardin Bonnes Mares last night and it could
use a little more time although it did improve in the glass
substantially. Sounds like a fun night!
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Old 11-02-2008, 05:27 AM posted to alt.food.wine
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,849
Default TN: dinner with the Williamses (Burg, Bdx, Rhne, Loire,Wachauetc)

DaleW wrote:
Mark and Jean Lipton were in town, and Betsy and I were delighted to
join them for dinner. A planned slight detour by Lincoln Center turned
into a minor traffic nightmare, so we were a bit late getting to
Cendrillon in SoHo. We arrived to find Mark, Jean, the real Jay
Miller, and the renowned SFJoe (who I'd never met before) patiently
waiting.


Jean (who actually doesn't share my last name except in social circles)
was speaking at NYU on Friday, so we decided to turn it into a family
outing to NYC. Dale and Betsy were nice enough to venture into the wilds
of Manhattan on a Saturday to meet us for dinner, along with a few other
friends. Having dined at their home in the distant past, Jean and I
were eager to renew the acquaintance and go out for a nice meal at the
same time.


A nice assortment of wines followed. I was a tad out of sorts, and
didn't take notes at the time, but following are some impressions. I
will say the food at Cendrillon was excellent. I had an extraordinary
goat curry with chutney and rice pancakes, followed by a tasty oxtail
dish with an unusual fermented shrimp paste. Betsy had the lumpia,
which I thought was like an egg roll (based on my one previous
Filipino meal), but was more of a big wrap filled with veggies. Her
main was very good shortribs with an excellent sauce. We brought most
of our wines, but list was VERY interesting and well-priced for NY.


Dale and I happened to order the same items, and I agree with his
assessment. I also tasted Jean's appetizer of pork belly in a bun
(good) and a black rice paella (good, but not sensational). I'd go back
in an instant for the goat curry alone, though. And that wine list was
fantastic.


The white wines:
1964 Huet Vouvray Sec
This was actually a petillant, though label said Sec not Brut. Some
petillance remaining, baked apples and lemon, good length, very
interesting wine. B+/B


I haven't had much experience with older Chenin, and when I first
smelled it I asked my companions if it was corked, to which these
knowlegable Cheninophiles remarked that it wasn't corked, but just
smelled close to it. With that in mind, I eventually decided that the
smell was bergamot. Very lovely on the palate, bright and lively with
enough fruit to keep my interest.


1991 Alzinger "Durnsteiner Hollerin" Riesling Smaragd
I found this a delightful surprise. From an "off" vintage, proof that
good producers make good wine. In this case very good wine. Lighter
than any Wachau Smaragd I've run across, sprightly wine with apple,
peach, and ginger flavors. Delicate hints of petrol, though on a
revisit later in night that was even less apparent. I quite enjoyed
this. B+/A-


Quite light and a bit less austere than I've come to expect from Wachau
Rieslings. Nicely mineral nose, and good stone fruit rith lively
acidity on the palate. A great match with the goat curry, I thought.


1998 Franz Hirtzberger "Singerriedel" Riesling Smaragd
Much bigger Riesling. Dry, but with a ripe fruit profile. Peach,
honey, apricot. Some earth and smoke notes. Powerful, good, but I
think I preferred the Alzinger from a lesser vintage overall. B+


I was floored by this wine. The redoubtable SFJoe explained that
Singerriedel got a bit of botrytis in '98 and it showed, both in the
remarkable orange tint to the wine and its powerful nose of honey and
apricot. A hint of petrol got through, however, to remind us that it
was Riesling after all. This also went fabulously with the goat curry,
I felt. Thanks, Dale!


2002 Puffeney Arbois Savagnin
Wild nose that reminds me of dried mushrooms with a hint of overripe
sheeps cheese, not quite like anything I ever smelled before. Palate
is much more conventional, rather easy drinking, though edging on hot.
I think others liked more than I did, I found the nose intriguing, but
not inviting. To be a true geek maybe one has to learn to love oddball
wines like this (and Vin Jaune, and obscure Sherries), but I'll just
remain a bystander. Nice to watch, but not my fave to drink. B-/C+


If ever a wine should be damned with the faint praise of an
"intellectual" wine, this is it. Wow, a nose of acetaldehyde vivid
enough to pickle you, with some maple syrup lurking in the background.
Very oxidative in nature, it tasted much like a Sherry, but without the
clarity of character of a true Sherry. Jean quipped that, with all the
acetaldehyde character, that it was a wine designed to give you a
hangover. Interesting, but not something that I'd go out of my way for.


1996 Soucherie "Clos des Perrieres" Savennieres
My other contribution. Very muted at first, almost dilute. Picks up
weight and flavor with time. Apple, wax, and lemon rind, good acidity,
nice wine. I like, but don't find the depth I had in '96 Closel or
even the regular Baumard (good bottles). B


As wonderful an event as this meal was, we ended up with 10 wines on the
table and only six people eating! I was starting to feel a bit
overwhelmed, and I'm afraid that this wine was a victim. Fortunately, I
took it home with us that night and sampled it again in the calm of the
late evening. Not as acidic as I've come to expect from Savenierres,
but nice Chenin character, with that lanolin thing. I don't have enough
experience with '96 Savenierres to comment, but it was a lovely wine.
Thanks again, Dale!


The red wines
1978 Haut-Bailly
I think this is the 3rd time I've had one of these from Jay's stash.
Jay thinks this bottle substandard, but I quite enjoyed (especially at
end of evening). Not at all a blockbuster, some might find thin, but I
found elegant and balanced. Good acidity, bright red-toned fruit, lots
of cedar and tobacco aromas. Maybe could use a lighter more density
and length, but a very nice wine with food. B+


Elegant and balanced describe this wine well. A great nose of tobacco
and pencil lead. Jay worries that it'll fall apart quickly, but I see
no signs of that. A bit of a tough match with the cuisine, though.


1998 Drouhin "Clos des Chenes" Volnay
This is showing a tad rough and coarse right now. Big, good dark berry
fruit, high acidity, some tannins. I think this is probably the best
wine we had this night, but really not ready, and less fun to taste
now. Everyone keeps saying the '98s are drinking well, but I keep
thinking they need more time. This night this one is a B/B-. Bet in
5-10 I'll be thinking a variance on an A.


This wine might get better, but I like it a lot now. Medium-light
weight, good berry fruit, excellent balance.


1998 Grivot Vosne-Romanee
OK, so here is a '98 that is drinking ok. Clean cherry fruit, a little
hint of kirsch (though not at all overripe), some spice. Not a big
wine, but a nice dinner companion. B/B+


To me, this wine was blockier than the Drouhin and didn't fare well in
the comparison. Some pencil lead and cherry fruit, medium body. Nice
enough, but no better.



1997 Ogier Cote-Rotie
I think I liked this more than others. Friendly puppy dog of a
Northern Rhone, round blackberry and cherry fruit, some smoked meat
and floral notes. Ferric/mineral edge on finish, very good. B+/A-


Again, I got to this only at the end of the meal so Dale didn't get to
hear my reaction to it. I found it to be one of the cleanest
Cote-Roties I've had, with a smoky nose that wasn't at all of the bacon
fat variety. Squeaky-clean Syrah berry fruit medium weight with some
mineral notes. Another wine I brought back with me, it showed well for
hours afterward. Not profound, but exactly what I'd hoped for when
bringing it to the dinner.


Fun night, even if I was beat. Nice to see Mark, Jean, and Jay again,
good to meet Joe. I liked lots of the wines, and loved the food. The
owner/chef joined us for a few tastes, and there was no corkage charge
on the bill. Even with a lavish tip it was a fairly cheap evening.
I'll be back to the restaurant (as I noted, nice list).


Agreed on all fronts. It was a great evening of food, wine and
conversation and it was a pleasure to see old friends and make a new
one. With luck, we'll return to NYC again before another 5 years have
passed. And next time, Andrew joins us (lets hope!). Thanks again for
making time to join us, Dale.

Mark Lipton


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Old 11-02-2008, 04:05 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,554
Default TN: dinner with the Williamses (Burg, Bdx, Rhne, Loire,Wachauetc)

On Feb 11, 12:27�am, Mark Lipton wrote:
Jean (who actually doesn't share my last name except in social circles)


Yeah, Betsy isn't Williams either, but I took a flyer.

I haven't had much experience with older Chenin, and when I first
smelled it I asked my companions if it was corked, to which these
knowlegable Cheninophiles remarked that it wasn't corked, but just
smelled close to it.


I always say CB gets more false TCA flags thrown on opening than any
other variety.


If ever a wine should be damned with the faint praise of an
"intellectual" wine, this is it.//Interesting, but not something that I'd go out of my way for.


Sounds like we're on same page!
1978 Haut-Bailly

�A bit of a tough match with the cuisine, though.

It went quite well with a little of Betsy's shortribs



�And next time, Andrew joins us (lets hope!). �Thanks again for
making time to join us, Dale.


Would love to meet him! Thanks for invite.


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