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Vegan (alt.food.vegan) This newsgroup exists to share ideas and issues of concern among vegans. We are always happy to share our recipes- perhaps especially with omnivores who are simply curious- or even better, accomodating a vegan guest for a meal! |
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
rick wrote: > "Dave" > wrote in message > oups.com... > > > > rick wrote: > >> "Dave" > wrote in message > >> oups.com... > >> > > >> > rick wrote: > >> >> " > >> > >> snippage... > >> > >> > >> >> > > >> >> > I don't entirely agree with veg*nism but I do admire > >> >> > veg*ns > >> >> > for > >> >> > taking > >> >> > some responsibility for their consumer habits. If > >> >> > everyone > >> >> > followed > >> >> > their example the world would be a much better place. > >> >> ===================================== > >> >> ROTFLMAO That's a hoot!!! Tell us what those 'examples' > >> >> are > >> >> dave. Not eating meat does not automatically mean a lesser > >> >> impact on animals or the environment! that's been the > >> >> whole > >> >> point I've been making all along. Now, if you can prove > >> >> that > >> >> it > >> >> does, be my guest. No one ever has yet, maybe you'll be > >> >> the > >> >> first! > >> > > >> > I don't entirely agree with veganism precisely because > >> > I don't believe that all plant agriculture is necessarily > >> > better > >> > for animals and the environment than traditional mixed > >> > agriculture systems. I admire vegans for taking > >> > responsibility > >> > for their own consumer habits and avoiding the products > >> > they can not condone. > >> =========================== > >> No Dave, that's the point. They only take exception to meats. > > > > Not necessarily true. By definition vegans take exception to > > all animal source foods but some vegans may also take exception > > to specific plant source foods. > =================== > None here, and that's the set I'm discussing, as I have told you > several times... > > > > >> They care nothing about the rest of the foods they eat, > >> regardless of whether they they cause even more deaths and > >> suffering. If they could tell you which foods that they do > >> eat > >> cause more'less animal death and suffering then maybe you > >> could > >> really admire them. > > > > It is really hard to establish how much animal death and > > suffering > > each individual item in one's diet causes. It is much easier to > > follow simple rules and as simple rules go, avoiding all animal > > source products is relatively effective. > ========================= > Prove it. That's the point. You cannot prove that being vegan > automatically means fewer animals die. > Vegans could DO some research on the subject, but instead they > prefer to just spew their hatred. Because most animals reared in the devoloped world are kept indoors and fed cultivated products with feed/flesh conversion ratios >1 it follows that a typical Western vegan diet will cause fewer deaths than a typical Western diet. I don't believe veganism is the ideal solution because there are exceptions to this rule and total of animal deaths cause is not a good measure of a diet's impact in any case. > >> Instead, they have no idea waht impact they > >> have. All they have is the simple rule for their simple mind, > >> 'eat no meat.' > >> > >> If everyone did that the world would > >> > be a much better place. > >> ================================ > >> Tell us how dave. > > > > If everyone took some responsibility for their consumer > > habits then the cost to humans, animals and the > > environment in producing conusmer goods would be > > reduced. > ========================== > That doesn't explain how vegans do that dave, and you know it. > vegans have made no such choices or responsibilities. Yes they do. They avoid products that they don't approve of. > Tell me how bananas are better than my grass-fed beef, dave. How > about rice? Tofu fake meats? I'm not claiming that you can buy bananas, rice or tofu fake meats that are better for humans, animals and the environment than your grass fed beef. > > > >> I've explained that the veagn here do nothing > >> but focus on meats. Not a one has ever told us which of the > >> foods they can eat cause more/less death and suffering. Why? > > > > See above. > ================== > Yes, see above. that's a cop out dave. Plain and simple, for > very simple minds. It must be so easy when you simply don't care to sit there mocking people who do for not doing enough to prove it. > > > >> Because ultimately they don't care about animals. It's all > >> about > >> the typical vegan hate for people. > > > > Ipse dixit. > ======================== > but true. Tell us where they have provided proof that their diet > automatically is better than any diet that includes meat, dave... How about you tell us where they have provided proof that they hate people and don't care about animals. |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
Leif Erikson wrote: > homo pantywaist fudgepacker ronnie hamilton shrieked: > > > Leif Erikson wrote: > > > Dave wrote: > > > > rick wrote: > > > > > "Dave" > wrote in message > > > > > ups.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > rick wrote: > > > > > >> "Dave" > wrote in message > > > > > >> ups.com... > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > rick wrote: > > > > > >> >> "Dave" > wrote in message > > > > > >> >> oups.com... > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > rick wrote: > > > > > >> >> >> "Dave" > wrote in message > > > > > >> >> >> oups.com... > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> snippage... > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > >> >> >> > If you do not buy grain fed, chemically laced meat > > > > > >> >> >> > then > > > > > >> >> >> > you > > > > > >> >> >> > have > > > > > >> >> >> > about the same impact upon the industries that produce > > > > > >> >> >> > it > > > > > >> >> >> > as > > > > > >> >> >> > vegans do. > > > > > >> >> >> ====================== > > > > > >> >> >> Your logic is failing. I have an impact on the > > > > > >> >> >> industry. > > > > > >> >> >> I > > > > > >> >> >> buy > > > > > >> >> >> a product that directly competes with what loons rant > > > > > >> >> >> about. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > Someone who stops eating beef will have to eat something > > > > > >> >> > else or go hungry. All food products are in competition > > > > > >> >> > with > > > > > >> >> > each other to some degree. > > > > > >> >> ========================== > > > > > >> >> Someone who does not eat meat and never will has no impact > > > > > >> >> on > > > > > >> >> the > > > > > >> >> meat industry they spew about. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > That is the point. They have no impact on the industry. They > > > > > >> > don't > > > > > >> > provide the motive for treating animals that way unlike > > > > > >> > people > > > > > >> > who > > > > > >> > consume the cheapest meats available. > > > > > >> ============================ > > > > > >> Yet they do nothing to change the industry the spew about. > > > > > >> Having an impact for change means you have to participate. > > > > > > > > > > > > Reduction is a type of change. > > > > > =========================== > > > > > You're missing the point. > > > > > > > > No it's you who are missing the point. > > > > > > Rick is correct: YOU are the one missing the point > > > > > > > > No. ricky is an idiot. > > No, Rick has this exactly right. > > > > > > > Since vegans do not and will not buy > > > > > meat they aren't reducing their use of meat. Since they do > > > > > participate, they have no impact. > > > > > > > > Their use of meat is less than it would be if they weren't vegan. > > > > By continuing to be vegan they are removing their contribution > > > > towards the commercial incentive to produce meat of any kind. > > > > > > No. You are wrong. > > > > > > No. No he's not. > > Yes, he is. "vegans" are not having any impact beyond their initial > refusal to eat meat, and that wasn't much impact at all. Surely it's about the same amount of impact as Rick makes by buying grass-fed beef. |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
rick wrote: > "Dave" > wrote in message > oups.com... > > > > Leif Erikson wrote: > >> Dave wrote: > >> > rick wrote: > >> > > "Dave" > wrote in message > >> > > ups.com... > >> > > > > >> > > > rick wrote: > >> > > >> "Dave" > wrote in message > >> > > >> ups.com... > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > rick wrote: > >> > > >> >> "Dave" > wrote in message > >> > > >> >> oups.com... > >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> >> > rick wrote: > >> > > >> >> >> "Dave" > wrote in message > >> > > >> >> >> oups.com... > >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> >> snippage... > >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> >> >> > > >> > > >> >> >> > If you do not buy grain fed, chemically laced > >> > > >> >> >> > meat > >> > > >> >> >> > then > >> > > >> >> >> > you > >> > > >> >> >> > have > >> > > >> >> >> > about the same impact upon the industries that > >> > > >> >> >> > produce > >> > > >> >> >> > it > >> > > >> >> >> > as > >> > > >> >> >> > vegans do. > >> > > >> >> >> ====================== > >> > > >> >> >> Your logic is failing. I have an impact on the > >> > > >> >> >> industry. > >> > > >> >> >> I > >> > > >> >> >> buy > >> > > >> >> >> a product that directly competes with what loons > >> > > >> >> >> rant > >> > > >> >> >> about. > >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> >> > Someone who stops eating beef will have to eat > >> > > >> >> > something > >> > > >> >> > else or go hungry. All food products are in > >> > > >> >> > competition > >> > > >> >> > with > >> > > >> >> > each other to some degree. > >> > > >> >> ========================== > >> > > >> >> Someone who does not eat meat and never will has no > >> > > >> >> impact > >> > > >> >> on > >> > > >> >> the > >> > > >> >> meat industry they spew about. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > That is the point. They have no impact on the > >> > > >> > industry. They > >> > > >> > don't > >> > > >> > provide the motive for treating animals that way > >> > > >> > unlike > >> > > >> > people > >> > > >> > who > >> > > >> > consume the cheapest meats available. > >> > > >> ============================ > >> > > >> Yet they do nothing to change the industry the spew > >> > > >> about. > >> > > >> Having an impact for change means you have to > >> > > >> participate. > >> > > > > >> > > > Reduction is a type of change. > >> > > =========================== > >> > > You're missing the point. > >> > > >> > No it's you who are missing the point. > >> > >> Rick is correct: YOU are the one missing the point > >> > >> > >> > > >> > > Since vegans do not and will not buy > >> > > meat they aren't reducing their use of meat. Since they > >> > > do > >> > > participate, they have no impact. > >> > > >> > Their use of meat is less than it would be if they weren't > >> > vegan. > >> > By continuing to be vegan they are removing their > >> > contribution > >> > towards the commercial incentive to produce meat of any > >> > kind. > >> > >> No. You are wrong. > >> > >> First of all, their withdrawal from the market for meat was a > >> one-time > >> effect. > > > > It is an ongoing effect. If they reversed their decision demand > > would > > increase. > > > >> Secondly, it was too small to be noticed. > > > > Individual consumer habits are barely noticed by the markets if > > at all. > > > > Many people use this an excuse for not considering the impacts > > the > > products they buy have upon humans, animals and the > > environment. > > This is one of the reasons the planet is f***d up in some ways > > and > > a major weakness of the free market. > > > >> They removed their > >> demand ONCE and once only; it does not have any continuing > >> impact. > >> > >> If they were for some reason to abandon "veganism" and return > >> to the > >> market for meat products, that too would be too small to be > >> noticed. > >> "vegans" are even a very tiny minority with the broader > >> vegetarian > >> community. As a percentage of the population, they are > >> doubtless less > >> than one half of one percent. > > > > I don't entirely agree with veg*nism but I do admire veg*ns for > > taking > > some responsibility for their consumer habits. If everyone > > followed > > their example the world would be a much better place. > ===================================== > ROTFLMAO That's a hoot!!! Tell us what those 'examples' are > dave. Not eating meat does not automatically mean a lesser > impact on animals or the environment! that's been the whole > point I've been making all along. Now, if you can prove that it > does, be my guest. No one ever has yet, maybe you'll be the > first! > In this paper Gaverick Matheny attempts to estimate the harm caused by a ruminant-pasture food production system as compared to a vegan food production system. http://homepage.uab.edu/nnobis/papers/least-harm.pdf Do you have any comment about that? > > > > > |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
"Dave" > wrote in message oups.com... > > rick wrote: >> "Dave" > wrote in message >> oups.com... >> > >> > rick wrote: >> >> "Dave" > wrote in message >> >> oups.com... >> >> > >> >> > rick wrote: >> >> >> " >> >> >> >> snippage... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I don't entirely agree with veg*nism but I do admire >> >> >> > veg*ns >> >> >> > for >> >> >> > taking >> >> >> > some responsibility for their consumer habits. If >> >> >> > everyone >> >> >> > followed >> >> >> > their example the world would be a much better place. >> >> >> ===================================== >> >> >> ROTFLMAO That's a hoot!!! Tell us what those >> >> >> 'examples' >> >> >> are >> >> >> dave. Not eating meat does not automatically mean a >> >> >> lesser >> >> >> impact on animals or the environment! that's been the >> >> >> whole >> >> >> point I've been making all along. Now, if you can prove >> >> >> that >> >> >> it >> >> >> does, be my guest. No one ever has yet, maybe you'll be >> >> >> the >> >> >> first! >> >> > >> >> > I don't entirely agree with veganism precisely because >> >> > I don't believe that all plant agriculture is necessarily >> >> > better >> >> > for animals and the environment than traditional mixed >> >> > agriculture systems. I admire vegans for taking >> >> > responsibility >> >> > for their own consumer habits and avoiding the products >> >> > they can not condone. >> >> =========================== >> >> No Dave, that's the point. They only take exception to >> >> meats. >> > >> > Not necessarily true. By definition vegans take exception to >> > all animal source foods but some vegans may also take >> > exception >> > to specific plant source foods. >> =================== >> None here, and that's the set I'm discussing, as I have told >> you >> several times... >> >> > >> >> They care nothing about the rest of the foods they eat, >> >> regardless of whether they they cause even more deaths and >> >> suffering. If they could tell you which foods that they do >> >> eat >> >> cause more'less animal death and suffering then maybe you >> >> could >> >> really admire them. >> > >> > It is really hard to establish how much animal death and >> > suffering >> > each individual item in one's diet causes. It is much easier >> > to >> > follow simple rules and as simple rules go, avoiding all >> > animal >> > source products is relatively effective. >> ========================= >> Prove it. That's the point. You cannot prove that being >> vegan >> automatically means fewer animals die. >> Vegans could DO some research on the subject, but instead they >> prefer to just spew their hatred. > > Because most animals reared in the devoloped world are kept > indoors ================== Show me these intensive indoor reared beef farms, dave. and fed cultivated products with feed/flesh conversion > ratios >1 it follows that a typical Western vegan diet will > cause fewer deaths than a typical Western diet. I don't believe > veganism is the ideal solution because there are exceptions > to this rule and total of animal deaths cause is not a good > measure of a diet's impact in any case. > >> >> Instead, they have no idea waht impact they >> >> have. All they have is the simple rule for their simple >> >> mind, >> >> 'eat no meat.' >> >> >> >> If everyone did that the world would >> >> > be a much better place. >> >> ================================ >> >> Tell us how dave. >> > >> > If everyone took some responsibility for their consumer >> > habits then the cost to humans, animals and the >> > environment in producing conusmer goods would be >> > reduced. >> ========================== >> That doesn't explain how vegans do that dave, and you know it. >> vegans have made no such choices or responsibilities. > > Yes they do. They avoid products that they don't approve of. ========================= LOL Just because they disapprove of a product does not then mean their choices are being responsible dave. How stupid can you be? > >> Tell me how bananas are better than my grass-fed beef, dave. >> How >> about rice? Tofu fake meats? > > I'm not claiming that you can buy bananas, rice or tofu fake > meats > that are better for humans, animals and the environment than > your > grass fed beef. ====================== Vegans do that all the time. It's their mantra. Do try to keep up... > >> > >> >> I've explained that the veagn here do nothing >> >> but focus on meats. Not a one has ever told us which of >> >> the >> >> foods they can eat cause more/less death and suffering. >> >> Why? >> > >> > See above. >> ================== >> Yes, see above. that's a cop out dave. Plain and simple, for >> very simple minds. > > It must be so easy when you simply don't care to sit there > mocking > people who do for not doing enough to prove it. ======================= They aren't doing anything to prove it dave. In fact, being here proves they don't care about killing animal unnecessarily. That's the point. > >> > >> >> Because ultimately they don't care about animals. It's all >> >> about >> >> the typical vegan hate for people. >> > >> > Ipse dixit. >> ======================== >> but true. Tell us where they have provided proof that their >> diet >> automatically is better than any diet that includes meat, >> dave... > > How about you tell us where they have provided proof that they > hate people and don't care about animals. ====================== Read what they right dave. Right now read the hate of your pal bgprwhatever... As for proof they don't care about the unnecessary death and suffering of animals, just posting here proves that. > |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
> wrote in message oups.com... > > rick wrote: >> "Dave" > wrote in message snip... >> > I don't entirely agree with veg*nism but I do admire veg*ns >> > for >> > taking >> > some responsibility for their consumer habits. If everyone >> > followed >> > their example the world would be a much better place. >> ===================================== >> ROTFLMAO That's a hoot!!! Tell us what those 'examples' are >> dave. Not eating meat does not automatically mean a lesser >> impact on animals or the environment! that's been the whole >> point I've been making all along. Now, if you can prove that >> it >> does, be my guest. No one ever has yet, maybe you'll be the >> first! >> > > In this paper Gaverick Matheny attempts to estimate the harm > caused by > a ruminant-pasture food production system as compared to a > vegan food > production system. > > http://homepage.uab.edu/nnobis/papers/least-harm.pdf > > Do you have any comment about that? ===================== Sure, it's a weak attempt without any backing to refute the real work.. >> >> >> >> > > |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
> wrote in message oups.com... > snip... >> > No. No he's not. >> >> Yes, he is. "vegans" are not having any impact beyond their >> initial >> refusal to eat meat, and that wasn't much impact at all. > > Surely it's about the same amount of impact as Rick makes by > buying > grass-fed beef. ========================== Really? tell us your proof. Step right up and demonstrate how just being vegan automatically causes no/less/fewer animals to die and less environmental impact that eating grass-fed meats. > |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
"rick" > wrote in message-
>Tell us what those 'examples' are dave. >No Dave, that's the point. >Show me these intensive indoor reared beef farms, dave. >Tell us how dave. >That doesn't explain how vegans do that dave, and you know it. >LOL Just because they disapprove of a product does not then mean their choices are being responsible dave. >Tell me how bananas are better than my grass-fed beef, dave. >Yes, see above. that's a cop out dave. >They aren't doing anything to prove it dave. >Tell us where they have provided proof that their diet automatically is better than any diet that includes meat, dave... >Read what they right dave. >>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< So what dingbat turned HAL back on??? -Dr. Dave Bowman, Astronaut / Mission Commander 2001: A Space Odyssey |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
rick wrote: > "Dave" > wrote in message > oups.com... > > > > rick wrote: > >> "Dave" > wrote in message > >> oups.com... > >> > > >> > rick wrote: > >> >> "Dave" > wrote in message > >> >> oups.com... > >> >> > > >> >> > rick wrote: > >> >> >> " > >> >> > >> >> snippage... > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > I don't entirely agree with veg*nism but I do admire > >> >> >> > veg*ns > >> >> >> > for > >> >> >> > taking > >> >> >> > some responsibility for their consumer habits. If > >> >> >> > everyone > >> >> >> > followed > >> >> >> > their example the world would be a much better place. > >> >> >> ===================================== > >> >> >> ROTFLMAO That's a hoot!!! Tell us what those > >> >> >> 'examples' > >> >> >> are > >> >> >> dave. Not eating meat does not automatically mean a > >> >> >> lesser > >> >> >> impact on animals or the environment! that's been the > >> >> >> whole > >> >> >> point I've been making all along. Now, if you can prove > >> >> >> that > >> >> >> it > >> >> >> does, be my guest. No one ever has yet, maybe you'll be > >> >> >> the > >> >> >> first! > >> >> > > >> >> > I don't entirely agree with veganism precisely because > >> >> > I don't believe that all plant agriculture is necessarily > >> >> > better > >> >> > for animals and the environment than traditional mixed > >> >> > agriculture systems. I admire vegans for taking > >> >> > responsibility > >> >> > for their own consumer habits and avoiding the products > >> >> > they can not condone. > >> >> =========================== > >> >> No Dave, that's the point. They only take exception to > >> >> meats. > >> > > >> > Not necessarily true. By definition vegans take exception to > >> > all animal source foods but some vegans may also take > >> > exception > >> > to specific plant source foods. > >> =================== > >> None here, and that's the set I'm discussing, as I have told > >> you > >> several times... > >> > >> > > >> >> They care nothing about the rest of the foods they eat, > >> >> regardless of whether they they cause even more deaths and > >> >> suffering. If they could tell you which foods that they do > >> >> eat > >> >> cause more'less animal death and suffering then maybe you > >> >> could > >> >> really admire them. > >> > > >> > It is really hard to establish how much animal death and > >> > suffering > >> > each individual item in one's diet causes. It is much easier > >> > to > >> > follow simple rules and as simple rules go, avoiding all > >> > animal > >> > source products is relatively effective. > >> ========================= > >> Prove it. That's the point. You cannot prove that being > >> vegan > >> automatically means fewer animals die. > >> Vegans could DO some research on the subject, but instead they > >> prefer to just spew their hatred. > > > > Because most animals reared in the devoloped world are kept > > indoors > ================== > Show me these intensive indoor reared beef farms, dave. I said most animals, not most cattle. Most pigs and poultry spend their lives indoors. Most cattle spend part of their lives grazing and part being fed in feedlots. > and fed cultivated products with feed/flesh conversion > > ratios >1 it follows that a typical Western vegan diet will > > cause fewer deaths than a typical Western diet. I don't believe > > veganism is the ideal solution because there are exceptions > > to this rule and total of animal deaths cause is not a good > > measure of a diet's impact in any case. > > > >> >> Instead, they have no idea waht impact they > >> >> have. All they have is the simple rule for their simple > >> >> mind, > >> >> 'eat no meat.' > >> >> > >> >> If everyone did that the world would > >> >> > be a much better place. > >> >> ================================ > >> >> Tell us how dave. > >> > > >> > If everyone took some responsibility for their consumer > >> > habits then the cost to humans, animals and the > >> > environment in producing conusmer goods would be > >> > reduced. > >> ========================== > >> That doesn't explain how vegans do that dave, and you know it. > >> vegans have made no such choices or responsibilities. > > > > Yes they do. They avoid products that they don't approve of. > ========================= > LOL Just because they disapprove of a product does not then mean > their choices are being responsible dave. How stupid can you be? I didn't say I admired them for making correct choices. I said I admired them for considering factors other than their bank balances and taste preferences. OK? > > > >> Tell me how bananas are better than my grass-fed beef, dave. > >> How > >> about rice? Tofu fake meats? > > > > I'm not claiming that you can buy bananas, rice or tofu fake > > meats > > that are better for humans, animals and the environment than > > your > > grass fed beef. > ====================== > Vegans do that all the time. It's their mantra. Do try to keep > up... I didn't. I'm not required to defend claims I didn't make. > > > >> > > >> >> I've explained that the veagn here do nothing > >> >> but focus on meats. Not a one has ever told us which of > >> >> the > >> >> foods they can eat cause more/less death and suffering. > >> >> Why? > >> > > >> > See above. > >> ================== > >> Yes, see above. that's a cop out dave. Plain and simple, for > >> very simple minds. > > > > It must be so easy when you simply don't care to sit there > > mocking > > people who do for not doing enough to prove it. > ======================= > They aren't doing anything to prove it dave. False. They are avoiding certain products to avoid complicity in associated animal abuses. > In fact, being here > proves they don't care about killing animal unnecessarily. > That's the point. It proves they don't care enough to go and live in a commune like dancing rabbit but it doesn't prove they don't care at all. As I said when you don't care at all it is easy to sit there mocking people who do for not doing enough to prove it. > >> > > >> >> Because ultimately they don't care about animals. It's all > >> >> about > >> >> the typical vegan hate for people. > >> > > >> > Ipse dixit. > >> ======================== > >> but true. Tell us where they have provided proof that their > >> diet > >> automatically is better than any diet that includes meat, > >> dave... > > > > How about you tell us where they have provided proof that they > > hate people and don't care about animals. > ====================== > Read what they right dave. Right now read the hate of your pal > bgprwhatever... I have read what they write. I have not come across one comment by any regular poster here that demonstrates hatred for people per se. > As for proof they don't care about the unnecessary death and > suffering of animals, just posting here proves that. |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
shrubkiller wrote: > Dave wrote: > > wrote: > > > Leif Erikson wrote: > > > > homo pantywaist fudgepacker ronnie hamilton shrieked: > > > > > > > > > Leif Erikson wrote: > > > > > > Dave wrote: > > > > > > > rick wrote: > > > > > > > > "Dave" > wrote in message > > > > > > > > ups.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rick wrote: > > > > > > > > >> "Dave" > wrote in message > > > > > > > > >> ups.com... > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > rick wrote: > > > > > > > > >> >> "Dave" > wrote in message > > > > > > > > >> >> oups.com... > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > rick wrote: > > > > > > > > >> >> >> "Dave" > wrote in message > > > > > > > > >> >> >> oups.com... > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> snippage... > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > If you do not buy grain fed, chemically laced meat > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > then > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > you > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > have > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > about the same impact upon the industries that produce > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > it > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > as > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > vegans do. > > > > > > > > >> >> >> ====================== > > > > > > > > >> >> >> Your logic is failing. I have an impact on the > > > > > > > > >> >> >> industry. > > > > > > > > >> >> >> I > > > > > > > > >> >> >> buy > > > > > > > > >> >> >> a product that directly competes with what loons rant > > > > > > > > >> >> >> about. > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > Someone who stops eating beef will have to eat something > > > > > > > > >> >> > else or go hungry. All food products are in competition > > > > > > > > >> >> > with > > > > > > > > >> >> > each other to some degree. > > > > > > > > >> >> ========================== > > > > > > > > >> >> Someone who does not eat meat and never will has no impact > > > > > > > > >> >> on > > > > > > > > >> >> the > > > > > > > > >> >> meat industry they spew about. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > That is the point. They have no impact on the industry. They > > > > > > > > >> > don't > > > > > > > > >> > provide the motive for treating animals that way unlike > > > > > > > > >> > people > > > > > > > > >> > who > > > > > > > > >> > consume the cheapest meats available. > > > > > > > > >> ============================ > > > > > > > > >> Yet they do nothing to change the industry the spew about. > > > > > > > > >> Having an impact for change means you have to participate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reduction is a type of change. > > > > > > > > =========================== > > > > > > > > You're missing the point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it's you who are missing the point. > > > > > > > > > > > > Rick is correct: YOU are the one missing the point > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. ricky is an idiot. > > > > > > > > No, Rick has this exactly right. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since vegans do not and will not buy > > > > > > > > meat they aren't reducing their use of meat. Since they do > > > > > > > > participate, they have no impact. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Their use of meat is less than it would be if they weren't vegan. > > > > > > > By continuing to be vegan they are removing their contribution > > > > > > > towards the commercial incentive to produce meat of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > > > No. You are wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. No he's not. > > > > > > > > Yes, he is. "vegans" are not having any impact beyond their initial > > > > refusal to eat meat, and that wasn't much impact at all. > > > > > > Surely it's about the same amount of impact as Rick makes by buying > > > grass-fed beef. > > > > Exactly. Not eating intensively produced beef has about the same > > impact on the beef factories irrespective of whether you choose to > > eat extensively reared beef or plant foods instead. > > > > That's true for an individual but add many individuals together If you add many individuals together the impact they have on beef factories is still the same irrespective of what they eat instead. > and the > meat industry would first start raising it's prices to maintain profit > margin in spite of lost sales and when the few still consuming beef > couldn't afford it and joined the rest of us in the sane world the beef > industry would collapse forever. People who would like beef production to continue but in a more environmentally responsible manner with higher welfare standards should consume only beef that meets those criteria. People who want us to stop producing beef full stop should not eat it at all. > > Thank you > > for supplying the voice of reason and common sense. |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
rick wrote: > > wrote in message > oups.com... > > > > snip... > > >> > No. No he's not. > >> > >> Yes, he is. "vegans" are not having any impact beyond their > >> initial > >> refusal to eat meat, and that wasn't much impact at all. > > > > Surely it's about the same amount of impact as Rick makes by > > buying > > grass-fed beef. > ========================== > Really? tell us your proof. Step right up and demonstrate how > just being vegan automatically causes no/less/fewer animals to > die and less environmental impact that eating grass-fed meats. > I wasn't really thinking about comparing the amount of harm caused by the production of grass-fed beef with the production of vegan food. My main thought was that both consumer choices involve boycotting factory-farmed beef, and the impact of this should be about the same in each case. But yes, the amount of harm caused by the production of the food one substitutes for factory-farmed beef should be considered as well. I don't have a proof that either one causes less harm than the other. Gaverick Matheny's calculations carry some weight with me, but they are just back of the envelope stuff and shouldn't be taken as proof. If you have any evidence to offer on the matter, let me know. > > > |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
Dave wrote: > wrote: > > [snip] > > > In this paper Gaverick Matheny attempts to estimate the harm caused by > > a ruminant-pasture food production system as compared to a vegan food > > production system. > > > > http://homepage.uab.edu/nnobis/papers/least-harm.pdf > > > > Do you have any comment about that? > > The first point to make is that the figures used (7.5 > deaths per ha for ruminant-pasture compared > with 15 for crop production) are little more than > speculation to being with. I can't locate the original > Davis article without paying but it (or derivatives thereof) > have been posted on this forum before and as I > recall provided no reason to consider either estimate > reliable. > > The use of per ha estimates instea of per capita > estimates is a serious logical error but correction > for this achieves little if the per ha estimates are > unreliable to begin with. > > Matheny goes on to make the important point > that the number of animal lives may be a more > important consider than the number of animal > deaths. He reasons: "As we already saw, ruminant > production uses 10 times as much land as crop > production to yield the same amount of food. > Thus, as long as the combined number of wild > animals on 9 wild acres plus one cultivated acre > is greater than the number on 10 grazed acres, > a vegan-vegetarian will allow the greatest number > of animals to exist." > > This sounds like a powerful argument and I bought > into it for a while but it does not tell the full story. > Opponents of veg*nism often claim that at least > some of the land used for grazing is not suitable > for cultivation. I'm sure we have sufficient > cultivatable land but it is also important to consider > the opportunity cost of the land. A vegan diet > probably entails using some land that could revert > to woodlands that support far more animal life than > some of the "uncultivatable lands that an > omnivore could make use of instead. Pressure > on wild animal habitats can also be reduced by > fishing the seas provided we do so within their > biological limits. > Well, that's an interesting point, but I don't think maximizing the number of animals who exist is the only consideration. I'm not a utilitarian like Gaverick Matheny. We would think it wrong to bring humans into existence and then kill them for food, even we thereby increased the number of humans living pleasant lives. And we should at least consider the possibility that similar considerations might hold for animals. So I would be somewhat critical of these arguments from a purely utilitarian perspective. > Modern methods of crop cultivation require significant > chemical imputs in the form of synthetic fertilizers > and *cides, which can harm the environment as a > result of their production, transportation and usage. > In order to maintain soil fertility and keep pests under > control in traditional organic systems crop rotations > are normally used. I don't know if there are crop > rotations available that produce human consumable > crops on all of the land all the time but in practise > grass-clover leys seem to feature rather prominently. > It surely makes sense to have cattle grazing on such > a ley, and producing milk at the same time and veal > and beef are then natural byproducts of this. > Well, I would question whether we have the right to kill the cattle for food, unless it could somehow be shown that we were actually reducing the number of animal deaths by doing this. > Animals can also benefit organic agriculture in > various other ways. For example, manure is > recognized as a good fertilizer, ducks like > eating slugs and pigs can dig over a patch to > remove weeds prior to planting. > > >From a least harm point of view, using any > reasonable criteria, I feel sure that > supermarket/resturant grains, legumes, > vegetables and nuts compare favourably > with supermarket/resturant meat, eggs > and dairy products but I think the best > option of all is to source both plant and > animal products from local organic farms > that you can trust, fish from handline > fisheries and nuts and wild plants from > local woodlands. I'm not altogether convinced about the animal products from organic farms. I think in most cases these would probably lead to more collateral deaths overall because of the extra land use. The fish is an interesting suggestion. I'm not sure about that one. It would be nice to see some research done on this topic to determine what really causes the least harm. |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
rick wrote: > > wrote in message > oups.com... > > > > rick wrote: > >> "Dave" > wrote in message > > > snip... > > > >> > I don't entirely agree with veg*nism but I do admire veg*ns > >> > for > >> > taking > >> > some responsibility for their consumer habits. If everyone > >> > followed > >> > their example the world would be a much better place. > >> ===================================== > >> ROTFLMAO That's a hoot!!! Tell us what those 'examples' are > >> dave. Not eating meat does not automatically mean a lesser > >> impact on animals or the environment! that's been the whole > >> point I've been making all along. Now, if you can prove that > >> it > >> does, be my guest. No one ever has yet, maybe you'll be the > >> first! > >> > > > > In this paper Gaverick Matheny attempts to estimate the harm > > caused by > > a ruminant-pasture food production system as compared to a > > vegan food > > production system. > > > > http://homepage.uab.edu/nnobis/papers/least-harm.pdf > > > > Do you have any comment about that? > ===================== > Sure, it's a weak attempt without any backing to refute the real > work.. > Well, that's not a very detailed critique. Perhaps if you could explain why it's weak. > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
Dave wrote: > shrubkiller wrote: > > Dave wrote: > > > wrote: > > > > Leif Erikson wrote: > > > > > homo pantywaist fudgepacker ronnie hamilton shrieked: > > > > > > > > > > > Leif Erikson wrote: > > > > > > > Dave wrote: > > > > > > > > rick wrote: > > > > > > > > > "Dave" > wrote in message > > > > > > > > > ups.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rick wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> "Dave" > wrote in message > > > > > > > > > >> ups.com... > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > rick wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> >> "Dave" > wrote in message > > > > > > > > > >> >> oups.com... > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > rick wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> "Dave" > wrote in message > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> oups.com... > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> snippage... > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > If you do not buy grain fed, chemically laced meat > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > then > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > you > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > have > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > about the same impact upon the industries that produce > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > it > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > as > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > vegans do. > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> ====================== > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> Your logic is failing. I have an impact on the > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> industry. > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> I > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> buy > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> a product that directly competes with what loons rant > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> about. > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > Someone who stops eating beef will have to eat something > > > > > > > > > >> >> > else or go hungry. All food products are in competition > > > > > > > > > >> >> > with > > > > > > > > > >> >> > each other to some degree. > > > > > > > > > >> >> ========================== > > > > > > > > > >> >> Someone who does not eat meat and never will has no impact > > > > > > > > > >> >> on > > > > > > > > > >> >> the > > > > > > > > > >> >> meat industry they spew about. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > That is the point. They have no impact on the industry. They > > > > > > > > > >> > don't > > > > > > > > > >> > provide the motive for treating animals that way unlike > > > > > > > > > >> > people > > > > > > > > > >> > who > > > > > > > > > >> > consume the cheapest meats available. > > > > > > > > > >> ============================ > > > > > > > > > >> Yet they do nothing to change the industry the spew about. > > > > > > > > > >> Having an impact for change means you have to participate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reduction is a type of change. > > > > > > > > > =========================== > > > > > > > > > You're missing the point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it's you who are missing the point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rick is correct: YOU are the one missing the point > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. ricky is an idiot. > > > > > > > > > > No, Rick has this exactly right. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since vegans do not and will not buy > > > > > > > > > meat they aren't reducing their use of meat. Since they do > > > > > > > > > participate, they have no impact. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Their use of meat is less than it would be if they weren't vegan. > > > > > > > > By continuing to be vegan they are removing their contribution > > > > > > > > towards the commercial incentive to produce meat of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. You are wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. No he's not. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, he is. "vegans" are not having any impact beyond their initial > > > > > refusal to eat meat, and that wasn't much impact at all. > > > > > > > > Surely it's about the same amount of impact as Rick makes by buying > > > > grass-fed beef. > > > > > > Exactly. Not eating intensively produced beef has about the same > > > impact on the beef factories irrespective of whether you choose to > > > eat extensively reared beef or plant foods instead. > > > > > > > > That's true for an individual but add many individuals together > > If you add many individuals together the impact they have on > beef factories is still the same irrespective of what they > eat instead. > > > and the > > meat industry would first start raising it's prices to maintain profit > > margin in spite of lost sales and when the few still consuming beef > > couldn't afford it and joined the rest of us in the sane world the beef > > industry would collapse forever. > > People who would like beef production to continue but in a more > environmentally responsible manner with higher welfare standards > should consume only beef that meets those criteria. People > who want us to stop producing beef full stop should not eat it > at all. I'm convinced that in the case of beef especially the situation will for the most part correct itself. Human deaths from meat/milk carrying prions will be disguised as Alzheimer's, CJD, etc.......for a while till the numbers get too high. More and more prion infected animals will be found, in spite of the fact that no one is looking too hard for them. "BSE is here to stay"................Health Canada scientists to their boss just before they were fired. > > > > Thank you > > > for supplying the voice of reason and common sense. |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
Leif's Smarter Brother wrote: > Dave wrote: > > shrubkiller wrote: > > > Dave wrote: > > > > wrote: > > > > > Leif Erikson wrote: > > > > > > homo pantywaist fudgepacker ronnie hamilton shrieked: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leif Erikson wrote: > > > > > > > > Dave wrote: > > > > > > > > > rick wrote: > > > > > > > > > > "Dave" > wrote in message > > > > > > > > > > ups.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rick wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >> "Dave" > wrote in message > > > > > > > > > > >> ups.com... > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > rick wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >> >> "Dave" > wrote in message > > > > > > > > > > >> >> oups.com... > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > rick wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> "Dave" > wrote in message > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> oups.com... > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> snippage... > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > If you do not buy grain fed, chemically laced meat > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > then > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > you > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > have > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > about the same impact upon the industries that produce > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > it > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > as > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> > vegans do. > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> ====================== > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> Your logic is failing. I have an impact on the > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> industry. > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> I > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> buy > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> a product that directly competes with what loons rant > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> about. > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > Someone who stops eating beef will have to eat something > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > else or go hungry. All food products are in competition > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > with > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > each other to some degree. > > > > > > > > > > >> >> ========================== > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Someone who does not eat meat and never will has no impact > > > > > > > > > > >> >> on > > > > > > > > > > >> >> the > > > > > > > > > > >> >> meat industry they spew about. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > That is the point. They have no impact on the industry. They > > > > > > > > > > >> > don't > > > > > > > > > > >> > provide the motive for treating animals that way unlike > > > > > > > > > > >> > people > > > > > > > > > > >> > who > > > > > > > > > > >> > consume the cheapest meats available. > > > > > > > > > > >> ============================ > > > > > > > > > > >> Yet they do nothing to change the industry the spew about. > > > > > > > > > > >> Having an impact for change means you have to participate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reduction is a type of change. > > > > > > > > > > =========================== > > > > > > > > > > You're missing the point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it's you who are missing the point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rick is correct: YOU are the one missing the point > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. ricky is an idiot. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, Rick has this exactly right. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since vegans do not and will not buy > > > > > > > > > > meat they aren't reducing their use of meat. Since they do > > > > > > > > > > participate, they have no impact. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Their use of meat is less than it would be if they weren't vegan. > > > > > > > > > By continuing to be vegan they are removing their contribution > > > > > > > > > towards the commercial incentive to produce meat of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. You are wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. No he's not. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, he is. "vegans" are not having any impact beyond their initial > > > > > > refusal to eat meat, and that wasn't much impact at all. > > > > > > > > > > Surely it's about the same amount of impact as Rick makes by buying > > > > > grass-fed beef. > > > > > > > > Exactly. Not eating intensively produced beef has about the same > > > > impact on the beef factories irrespective of whether you choose to > > > > eat extensively reared beef or plant foods instead. > > > > > > > > > > > > That's true for an individual but add many individuals together > > > > If you add many individuals together the impact they have on > > beef factories is still the same irrespective of what they > > eat instead. > > > > > and the > > > meat industry would first start raising it's prices to maintain profit > > > margin in spite of lost sales and when the few still consuming beef > > > couldn't afford it and joined the rest of us in the sane world the beef > > > industry would collapse forever. > > > > People who would like beef production to continue but in a more > > environmentally responsible manner with higher welfare standards > > should consume only beef that meets those criteria. People > > who want us to stop producing beef full stop should not eat it > > at all. > > > > I'm convinced that in the case of beef especially the situation will > for the most part correct itself. > > Human deaths from meat/milk carrying prions will be disguised as > Alzheimer's, CJD, etc.......for a while till the numbers get too high. > More and more prion infected animals will be found, in spite of the > fact that no one is looking too hard for them. > > "BSE is here to stay"................Health Canada scientists to their > boss just before they were fired. Do you have any evidence of nvCJD being misdiagnosed as Alzheimers of standard CJD and if you do do you have any reason to believe these are more than one off cases? > > > > > > Thank you > > > > for supplying the voice of reason and common sense. |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
wrote: > Dave wrote: > > wrote: > > > > [snip] > > > > > In this paper Gaverick Matheny attempts to estimate the harm caused by > > > a ruminant-pasture food production system as compared to a vegan food > > > production system. > > > > > > http://homepage.uab.edu/nnobis/papers/least-harm.pdf > > > > > > Do you have any comment about that? > > > > The first point to make is that the figures used (7.5 > > deaths per ha for ruminant-pasture compared > > with 15 for crop production) are little more than > > speculation to being with. I can't locate the original > > Davis article without paying but it (or derivatives thereof) > > have been posted on this forum before and as I > > recall provided no reason to consider either estimate > > reliable. > > > > The use of per ha estimates instea of per capita > > estimates is a serious logical error but correction > > for this achieves little if the per ha estimates are > > unreliable to begin with. > > > > Matheny goes on to make the important point > > that the number of animal lives may be a more > > important consider than the number of animal > > deaths. He reasons: "As we already saw, ruminant > > production uses 10 times as much land as crop > > production to yield the same amount of food. > > Thus, as long as the combined number of wild > > animals on 9 wild acres plus one cultivated acre > > is greater than the number on 10 grazed acres, > > a vegan-vegetarian will allow the greatest number > > of animals to exist." > > > > This sounds like a powerful argument and I bought > > into it for a while but it does not tell the full story. > > Opponents of veg*nism often claim that at least > > some of the land used for grazing is not suitable > > for cultivation. I'm sure we have sufficient > > cultivatable land but it is also important to consider > > the opportunity cost of the land. A vegan diet > > probably entails using some land that could revert > > to woodlands that support far more animal life than > > some of the "uncultivatable lands that an > > omnivore could make use of instead. Pressure > > on wild animal habitats can also be reduced by > > fishing the seas provided we do so within their > > biological limits. > > > > Well, that's an interesting point, but I don't think maximizing the > number of animals who exist is the only consideration. I'm not a > utilitarian like Gaverick Matheny. We would think it wrong to bring > humans into existence and then kill them for food, even we thereby > increased the number of humans living pleasant lives. And we should at > least consider the possibility that similar considerations might hold > for animals. So I would be somewhat critical of these arguments from a > purely utilitarian perspective. >From an abstract philosophical perspective it is hard to argue against the concept of granting animals similar rights as humans but I think it is even harder to argue against the utilitarian prinicple. > > Modern methods of crop cultivation require significant > > chemical imputs in the form of synthetic fertilizers > > and *cides, which can harm the environment as a > > result of their production, transportation and usage. > > In order to maintain soil fertility and keep pests under > > control in traditional organic systems crop rotations > > are normally used. I don't know if there are crop > > rotations available that produce human consumable > > crops on all of the land all the time but in practise > > grass-clover leys seem to feature rather prominently. > > It surely makes sense to have cattle grazing on such > > a ley, and producing milk at the same time and veal > > and beef are then natural byproducts of this. > > > Well, I would question whether we have the right to kill the cattle for > food, Cultivation of food crops on a commercial scale is also killing animals for food. These deaths may be less directly related to the final product but they are still consequences of our actions that we have prior knowledge of. In some case (for example poisoning) they are even deliberate. > unless it could somehow be shown that we were actually reducing > the number of animal deaths by doing this. I can not prove that killing pasture raised ruminants for food reduces the number of animal deaths compared with eating plant foods instead of the meat but neither have I seen anyone prove that it increases the number. > > Animals can also benefit organic agriculture in > > various other ways. For example, manure is > > recognized as a good fertilizer, ducks like > > eating slugs and pigs can dig over a patch to > > remove weeds prior to planting. > > > > >From a least harm point of view, using any > > reasonable criteria, I feel sure that > > supermarket/resturant grains, legumes, > > vegetables and nuts compare favourably > > with supermarket/resturant meat, eggs > > and dairy products but I think the best > > option of all is to source both plant and > > animal products from local organic farms > > that you can trust, fish from handline > > fisheries and nuts and wild plants from > > local woodlands. > > I'm not altogether convinced about the animal products from organic > farms. I think in most cases these would probably lead to more > collateral deaths overall because of the extra land use. Organic farming is not necessarily all that inefficient in terms of land use. A recent(ish) study from the US conducted by Pimental et al. claimed yields rivalling conventional methods for producing the same crops. http://whyfiles.org/shorties/182organic_ag/ A swiss study claimed average yields of 80% compared with conventional farming over a 21 year period for a range of crops. However this was balanced by a reduction of energy and fertilizer use between 34 and 53% and a reduction of pesticide use of 97%. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2017094.stm Regarding collateral death rates you need to consider the feed. If an animal is kept indoors all the time and fed cultivated food products then the toll is bound to be higher than when the animal is allowed to forage part or all of its diet. > The fish is an > interesting suggestion. I'm not sure about that one. One question arising is how high should we should value the life of a fish relative to the birds and mammals of the field. If you make no difference between classes of animlas then you can only use the LHP to justify big fish and big fish generally mature and breed slowly and therefore can not be harvested in the same quantities as little fish. Personally the life of a mammal or bird means rather more to me than the life of a fish. > It would > be nice to see some research done on this topic to > determine what really causes the least harm. Indeed although what constitues "least harm" may be a matter of some controversy. For example planting hedgerows round field edges will normally cause an increase in the animal population of the area. If the proportion of animals killed remains the same then a simple death count would suggest planting these hedgerows is a bad idea. Is this a conclusion you would feel comfortable with? |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
Dave wrote: > wrote: > > Dave wrote: > > > wrote: > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > In this paper Gaverick Matheny attempts to estimate the harm caused by > > > > a ruminant-pasture food production system as compared to a vegan food > > > > production system. > > > > > > > > http://homepage.uab.edu/nnobis/papers/least-harm.pdf > > > > > > > > Do you have any comment about that? > > > > > > The first point to make is that the figures used (7.5 > > > deaths per ha for ruminant-pasture compared > > > with 15 for crop production) are little more than > > > speculation to being with. I can't locate the original > > > Davis article without paying but it (or derivatives thereof) > > > have been posted on this forum before and as I > > > recall provided no reason to consider either estimate > > > reliable. > > > > > > The use of per ha estimates instea of per capita > > > estimates is a serious logical error but correction > > > for this achieves little if the per ha estimates are > > > unreliable to begin with. > > > > > > Matheny goes on to make the important point > > > that the number of animal lives may be a more > > > important consider than the number of animal > > > deaths. He reasons: "As we already saw, ruminant > > > production uses 10 times as much land as crop > > > production to yield the same amount of food. > > > Thus, as long as the combined number of wild > > > animals on 9 wild acres plus one cultivated acre > > > is greater than the number on 10 grazed acres, > > > a vegan-vegetarian will allow the greatest number > > > of animals to exist." > > > > > > This sounds like a powerful argument and I bought > > > into it for a while but it does not tell the full story. > > > Opponents of veg*nism often claim that at least > > > some of the land used for grazing is not suitable > > > for cultivation. I'm sure we have sufficient > > > cultivatable land but it is also important to consider > > > the opportunity cost of the land. A vegan diet > > > probably entails using some land that could revert > > > to woodlands that support far more animal life than > > > some of the "uncultivatable lands that an > > > omnivore could make use of instead. Pressure > > > on wild animal habitats can also be reduced by > > > fishing the seas provided we do so within their > > > biological limits. > > > > > > > Well, that's an interesting point, but I don't think maximizing the > > number of animals who exist is the only consideration. I'm not a > > utilitarian like Gaverick Matheny. We would think it wrong to bring > > humans into existence and then kill them for food, even we thereby > > increased the number of humans living pleasant lives. And we should at > > least consider the possibility that similar considerations might hold > > for animals. So I would be somewhat critical of these arguments from a > > purely utilitarian perspective. > > >From an abstract philosophical perspective it is hard to argue > against the concept of granting animals similar rights as humans > but I think it is even harder to argue against the utilitarian > prinicple. > Well, of course there is a lot of philosophical literature on this issue. But certainly utilitarianism is somewhat controversial. > > > Modern methods of crop cultivation require significant > > > chemical imputs in the form of synthetic fertilizers > > > and *cides, which can harm the environment as a > > > result of their production, transportation and usage. > > > In order to maintain soil fertility and keep pests under > > > control in traditional organic systems crop rotations > > > are normally used. I don't know if there are crop > > > rotations available that produce human consumable > > > crops on all of the land all the time but in practise > > > grass-clover leys seem to feature rather prominently. > > > It surely makes sense to have cattle grazing on such > > > a ley, and producing milk at the same time and veal > > > and beef are then natural byproducts of this. > > > > > Well, I would question whether we have the right to kill the cattle for > > food, > > Cultivation of food crops on a commercial scale is also killing animals > for food. True. I don't think we should kill animals unnecessarily. The word "unnecessarily" is vague and I am unsure exactly how much killing is necessary. But there is probably room for improvement in crop agriculture as well as in animal agriculture. > These deaths may be less directly related to the final > product > but they are still consequences of our actions that we have prior > knowledge of. In some case (for example poisoning) they are even > deliberate. > > > unless it could somehow be shown that we were actually reducing > > the number of animal deaths by doing this. > > I can not prove that killing pasture raised ruminants for food reduces > the number of animal deaths compared with eating plant foods > instead of the meat but neither have I seen anyone prove that it > increases the number. > It's difficult to prove, but Matheny's calculations carry some weight with me. Note that they only require the ratio of the number of animals killed in pasture-ruminant production to the number killed in crop production to be (very) approximately correct. > > > Animals can also benefit organic agriculture in > > > various other ways. For example, manure is > > > recognized as a good fertilizer, ducks like > > > eating slugs and pigs can dig over a patch to > > > remove weeds prior to planting. > > > > > > >From a least harm point of view, using any > > > reasonable criteria, I feel sure that > > > supermarket/resturant grains, legumes, > > > vegetables and nuts compare favourably > > > with supermarket/resturant meat, eggs > > > and dairy products but I think the best > > > option of all is to source both plant and > > > animal products from local organic farms > > > that you can trust, fish from handline > > > fisheries and nuts and wild plants from > > > local woodlands. > > > > I'm not altogether convinced about the animal products from organic > > farms. I think in most cases these would probably lead to more > > collateral deaths overall because of the extra land use. > > Organic farming is not necessarily all that inefficient in terms of > land use. A recent(ish) study from the US conducted by Pimental > et al. claimed yields rivalling conventional methods for producing > the same crops. http://whyfiles.org/shorties/182organic_ag/ > > A swiss study claimed average yields of 80% compared with > conventional farming over a 21 year period for a range of crops. > However this was balanced by a reduction of energy and > fertilizer use between 34 and 53% and a reduction of pesticide > use of 97%. > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2017094.stm > > Regarding collateral death rates you need to consider the > feed. If an animal is kept indoors all the time and fed > cultivated food products then the toll is bound to be higher > than when the animal is allowed to forage part or all of > its diet. It certainly is a big advantage if the animal is allowed to forage part of its diet. But there are the collateral deaths that arise from clearing the land for pasture in the first place. More research should be done on this issue. So far all I have read on the subject is Davis and Matheny. Based on that, at the moment I would want to see a fairly detailed demonstration before I would conclude that any particular non-vegan approach was definitely superior to the vegan one. One possibly promising non-vegan approach would be catching big fish. > > > The fish is an > > interesting suggestion. I'm not sure about that one. > > One question arising is how high should we should > value the life of a fish relative to the birds and mammals > of the field. If you make no difference between classes > of animlas then you can only use the LHP to justify > big fish and big fish generally mature and breed slowly > and therefore can not be harvested in the same quantities > as little fish. Personally the life of a mammal or bird means > rather more to me than the life of a fish. > I think I could go along with that to some extent, but I would still worry if the death toll for small fish were significantly higher than the death toll for crop production. Another important factor would be comparing the amount of pain and suffering involved in their deaths. > > It would > > be nice to see some research done on this topic to > > determine what really causes the least harm. > > Indeed although what constitues "least harm" may be a matter > of some controversy. For example planting hedgerows round field > edges will normally cause an increase in the animal population > of the area. If the proportion of animals killed remains the same > then a simple death count would suggest planting these > hedgerows is a bad idea. Is this a conclusion you would > feel comfortable with? Not entirely. I do think bringing animals into existence counts for something. There certainly are a lot of complexities. As an individual, what I think I have a responsibility to do is, in the words of David DeGrazia, to "make every reasonable effort not to provide financial support for institutions or practices that cause or support unnecessary harm." There is room for debate both about what is "reasonable" and what is "unnecessary." Based on what I know at the moment, I think adopting a vegan diet is part of a reasonable strategy for doing that. Leif Erikson has argued to me that I should be doing more, that I should be growing some of my own vegetables and doing research about the extent of harm caused by production of the different crops. I accept that. I have tried to find out a little about the extent of harm caused by production of the different crops, and so far have found out mainly that not very much research has been done on it. I don't accept that I have an obligation to buy up some land and grow all my own food, I think this goes beyond making every "reasonable" effort, and in any case, it would involve opportunity costs that would prevent me from reducing suffering in other ways, such as donating money to UNICEF. So, as I say, at the moment I'm comfortable with being vegan and advocating veganism, but I'm open to exploring alternatives. |
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> wrote
> So, as I say, at the moment I'm comfortable with being vegan and > advocating veganism, but I'm open to exploring alternatives. A vegan exploring alternatives is an oxymoron. If you are prepared to explore alternatives to the simplistic idea of veganism then you aren't a vegan. If I tell a vegan that I can improve their diet wrt animal death and suffering by substituting some fish or game, he will always find a way to deny, equivocate or refuse to listen to that idea. |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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> wrote
> Well, I would question whether we have the right to kill the cattle for > food, unless it could somehow be shown that we were actually reducing > the number of animal deaths by doing this. It is very reasonable to conclude that this is at least *sometimes* the case, but why does the number of animals who live or who die have any bearing on our right to use them as a food resource or kill them in producing one? This is a silly notion that vegans swallow hook, line, and sinker. |
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Dutch wrote: > > wrote > > So, as I say, at the moment I'm comfortable with being vegan and > > advocating veganism, but I'm open to exploring alternatives. > > A vegan exploring alternatives is an oxymoron. If you are prepared to > explore alternatives to the simplistic idea of veganism then you aren't a > vegan. If I tell a vegan that I can improve their diet wrt animal death and > suffering by substituting some fish or game, he will always find a way to > deny, equivocate or refuse to listen to that idea. You can *say* you can but in reality you can't. |
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Can we do better?
Dutch wrote: > > wrote > > > Well, I would question whether we have the right to kill the cattle for > > food, unless it could somehow be shown that we were actually reducing > > the number of animal deaths by doing this. > > It is very reasonable to conclude that this is at least *sometimes* the > case, but why does the number of animals who live or who die have any > bearing on our right to use them as a food resource or kill them in > producing one? This is a silly notion that vegans swallow hook, line, and > sinker. You are an idiot Dutch. Animal consumption is inhumane and unhealthy. What more would anyone need to know? |
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****wit David Harrison's bowel movement blabbered:
> Dutch wrote: > > wrote >> >>>So, as I say, at the moment I'm comfortable with being vegan and >>>advocating veganism, but I'm open to exploring alternatives. >> >>A vegan exploring alternatives is an oxymoron. If you are prepared to >>explore alternatives to the simplistic idea of veganism then you aren't a >>vegan. If I tell a vegan that I can improve their diet wrt animal death and >>suffering by substituting some fish or game, he will always find a way to >>deny, equivocate or refuse to listen to that idea. > > > > You can *say* you can but in reality you can't. **** off, homo no-fight pantywaist ronnnnnnnnnnnnie. |
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Can we do better?
****wit David Harrison's festering ass-boil blabbered:
> Dutch wrote: > > wrote >> >> >>>Well, I would question whether we have the right to kill the cattle for >>>food, unless it could somehow be shown that we were actually reducing >>>the number of animal deaths by doing this. >> >>It is very reasonable to conclude that this is at least *sometimes* the >>case, but why does the number of animals who live or who die have any >>bearing on our right to use them as a food resource or kill them in >>producing one? This is a silly notion that vegans swallow hook, line, and >>sinker. > > > > You are an idiot Dutch. You are such a flabby no-fight fudgepacking homo pantywaist, ronnnnnnnnnie. |
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"Leif's Smarter Brother" > wrote in message oups.com... > > Dutch wrote: >> > wrote >> > So, as I say, at the moment I'm comfortable with being vegan and >> > advocating veganism, but I'm open to exploring alternatives. >> >> A vegan exploring alternatives is an oxymoron. If you are prepared to >> explore alternatives to the simplistic idea of veganism then you aren't a >> vegan. If I tell a vegan that I can improve their diet wrt animal death >> and >> suffering by substituting some fish or game, he will always find a way to >> deny, equivocate or refuse to listen to that idea. > > > You can *say* you can but in reality you can't. Thank you for illustrating my point. |
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"Leif's Smarter Brother" > wrote in message oups.com... > > Dutch wrote: >> > wrote >> >> > Well, I would question whether we have the right to kill the cattle for >> > food, unless it could somehow be shown that we were actually reducing >> > the number of animal deaths by doing this. >> >> It is very reasonable to conclude that this is at least *sometimes* the >> case, but why does the number of animals who live or who die have any >> bearing on our right to use them as a food resource or kill them in >> producing one? This is a silly notion that vegans swallow hook, line, and >> sinker. > > > You are an idiot Dutch. Animal consumption is inhumane and unhealthy. Ipse dixit > What more would anyone need to know? The facts. |
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Can we do better?
"Dave" > wrote in message ups.com... > > rick wrote: >> "Dave" > wrote in message snip... >> >> > It is really hard to establish how much animal death and >> >> > suffering >> >> > each individual item in one's diet causes. It is much >> >> > easier >> >> > to >> >> > follow simple rules and as simple rules go, avoiding all >> >> > animal >> >> > source products is relatively effective. >> >> ========================= >> >> Prove it. That's the point. You cannot prove that being >> >> vegan >> >> automatically means fewer animals die. >> >> Vegans could DO some research on the subject, but instead >> >> they >> >> prefer to just spew their hatred. >> > >> > Because most animals reared in the devoloped world are kept >> > indoors >> ================== >> Show me these intensive indoor reared beef farms, dave. > > I said most animals, not most cattle. Most pigs and poultry > spend their lives indoors. Most cattle spend part of their > lives grazing and part being fed in feedlots. =================== I guess I'd better go out back and let the chickens know that they aren't really running around, huh? > >> and fed cultivated products with feed/flesh conversion >> > ratios >1 it follows that a typical Western vegan diet will >> > cause fewer deaths than a typical Western diet. I don't >> > believe >> > veganism is the ideal solution because there are exceptions >> > to this rule and total of animal deaths cause is not a good >> > measure of a diet's impact in any case. >> > >> >> >> Instead, they have no idea waht impact they >> >> >> have. All they have is the simple rule for their simple >> >> >> mind, >> >> >> 'eat no meat.' >> >> >> >> >> >> If everyone did that the world would >> >> >> > be a much better place. >> >> >> ================================ >> >> >> Tell us how dave. >> >> > >> >> > If everyone took some responsibility for their consumer >> >> > habits then the cost to humans, animals and the >> >> > environment in producing conusmer goods would be >> >> > reduced. >> >> ========================== >> >> That doesn't explain how vegans do that dave, and you know >> >> it. >> >> vegans have made no such choices or responsibilities. >> > >> > Yes they do. They avoid products that they don't approve of. >> ========================= >> LOL Just because they disapprove of a product does not then >> mean >> their choices are being responsible dave. How stupid can you >> be? > > I didn't say I admired them for making correct choices. I said > I > admired them for considering factors other than their bank > balances > and taste preferences. OK? ========================= Which still means that there is not automatically something to admire. What part of making choices without doing any research makes you think that they are makling any kind of difference. Good intentions don't mean squat. > >> > >> >> Tell me how bananas are better than my grass-fed beef, >> >> dave. >> >> How >> >> about rice? Tofu fake meats? >> > >> > I'm not claiming that you can buy bananas, rice or tofu fake >> > meats >> > that are better for humans, animals and the environment than >> > your >> > grass fed beef. >> ====================== >> Vegans do that all the time. It's their mantra. Do try to >> keep >> up... > > I didn't. I'm not required to defend claims I didn't make. > =================== Talk the talk, walk the walk... >> > >> >> > >> >> >> I've explained that the veagn here do nothing >> >> >> but focus on meats. Not a one has ever told us which of >> >> >> the >> >> >> foods they can eat cause more/less death and suffering. >> >> >> Why? >> >> > >> >> > See above. >> >> ================== >> >> Yes, see above. that's a cop out dave. Plain and simple, >> >> for >> >> very simple minds. >> > >> > It must be so easy when you simply don't care to sit there >> > mocking >> > people who do for not doing enough to prove it. >> ======================= >> They aren't doing anything to prove it dave. > > False. They are avoiding certain products to avoid > complicity in associated animal abuses. ========================== That does not prove anything dave. The meat they were eating may have caused very little death and suffering to animals compared to the foods thay replaced it with. Is it really so hard for you to admit that vegan isn't an automatic pass into heaven? > >> In fact, being here >> proves they don't care about killing animal unnecessarily. >> That's the point. > > It proves they don't care enough to go and live in a commune > like dancing rabbit but it doesn't prove they don't care at > all. ====================== It proves that all their talk of rights is pure bulls**t. > As I said when you don't care at all it is easy to sit there > mocking people who do for not doing enough to prove it. ============================== LOL Unlike most vegans here, I do more than they to contribute to less animals death and suffering. The problem is, I don't run around crowing that I'm some animal savior like vegans do. > >> >> > >> >> >> Because ultimately they don't care about animals. It's >> >> >> all >> >> >> about >> >> >> the typical vegan hate for people. >> >> > >> >> > Ipse dixit. >> >> ======================== >> >> but true. Tell us where they have provided proof that >> >> their >> >> diet >> >> automatically is better than any diet that includes meat, >> >> dave... >> > >> > How about you tell us where they have provided proof that >> > they >> > hate people and don't care about animals. >> ====================== >> Read what they right dave. Right now read the hate of your >> pal >> bgprwhatever... > > I have read what they write. I have not come across one comment > by any regular poster here that demonstrates hatred for people > per se. ================== Comprehension problems huh? > >> As for proof they don't care about the unnecessary death and >> suffering of animals, just posting here proves that. > |
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Can we do better?
> wrote in message oups.com... > > rick wrote: >> > wrote in message >> oups.com... >> > >> > rick wrote: >> >> "Dave" > wrote in message >> >> >> snip... >> >> >> >> > I don't entirely agree with veg*nism but I do admire >> >> > veg*ns >> >> > for >> >> > taking >> >> > some responsibility for their consumer habits. If >> >> > everyone >> >> > followed >> >> > their example the world would be a much better place. >> >> ===================================== >> >> ROTFLMAO That's a hoot!!! Tell us what those 'examples' >> >> are >> >> dave. Not eating meat does not automatically mean a lesser >> >> impact on animals or the environment! that's been the >> >> whole >> >> point I've been making all along. Now, if you can prove >> >> that >> >> it >> >> does, be my guest. No one ever has yet, maybe you'll be >> >> the >> >> first! >> >> >> > >> > In this paper Gaverick Matheny attempts to estimate the harm >> > caused by >> > a ruminant-pasture food production system as compared to a >> > vegan food >> > production system. >> > >> > http://homepage.uab.edu/nnobis/papers/least-harm.pdf >> > >> > Do you have any comment about that? >> ===================== >> Sure, it's a weak attempt without any backing to refute the >> real >> work.. >> > > Well, that's not a very detailed critique. Perhaps if you could > explain > why it's weak. ================= Real the real research.... > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > |
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Can we do better?
> wrote in message ups.com... > > Dave wrote: >> wrote: snip... >> Modern methods of crop cultivation require significant >> chemical imputs in the form of synthetic fertilizers >> and *cides, which can harm the environment as a >> result of their production, transportation and usage. >> In order to maintain soil fertility and keep pests under >> control in traditional organic systems crop rotations >> are normally used. I don't know if there are crop >> rotations available that produce human consumable >> crops on all of the land all the time but in practise >> grass-clover leys seem to feature rather prominently. >> It surely makes sense to have cattle grazing on such >> a ley, and producing milk at the same time and veal >> and beef are then natural byproducts of this. >> > > Well, I would question whether we have the right to kill the > cattle for > food, unless it could somehow be shown that we were actually > reducing > the number of animal deaths by doing this. ========================= Quite easy to do when compared to your tofu meat substitutes. And, if we don't have the 'right' to kill cattle for the food we eat, why do we have the 'right' to kill field animals for the food we eat? > >> Animals can also benefit organic agriculture in >> various other ways. For example, manure is >> recognized as a good fertilizer, ducks like >> eating slugs and pigs can dig over a patch to >> remove weeds prior to planting. >> >> >From a least harm point of view, using any >> reasonable criteria, I feel sure that >> supermarket/resturant grains, legumes, >> vegetables and nuts compare favourably >> with supermarket/resturant meat, eggs >> and dairy products but I think the best >> option of all is to source both plant and >> animal products from local organic farms >> that you can trust, fish from handline >> fisheries and nuts and wild plants from >> local woodlands. > > I'm not altogether convinced about the animal products from > organic > farms. I think in most cases these would probably lead to more > collateral deaths overall because of the extra land use. ============================== Why? You suggesting that regular animals of the fields can't live in pastures with cattle? Replacing mono-culture crop fields with pastures to graze cattle would *reduce* CDs. There is no way that you can say that more animals are going to die from pasture grazing that mono-culture food production. The fish is an > interesting suggestion. I'm not sure about that one. It would > be nice > to see some research done on this topic to determine what > really causes > the least harm. ===================== It isn't the veggies you eat... > |
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Can we do better?
> wrote in message oups.com... > > rick wrote: >> > wrote in message >> oups.com... >> > >> >> snip... >> >> >> > No. No he's not. >> >> >> >> Yes, he is. "vegans" are not having any impact beyond >> >> their >> >> initial >> >> refusal to eat meat, and that wasn't much impact at all. >> > >> > Surely it's about the same amount of impact as Rick makes by >> > buying >> > grass-fed beef. >> ========================== >> Really? tell us your proof. Step right up and demonstrate >> how >> just being vegan automatically causes no/less/fewer animals to >> die and less environmental impact that eating grass-fed meats. >> > > I wasn't really thinking about comparing the amount of harm > caused by > the production of grass-fed beef with the production of vegan > food. My > main thought was that both consumer choices involve boycotting > factory-farmed beef, and the impact of this should be about the > same in > each case. ========================= No, it would not be. The vegan has no impact on the industry at all. Those that buy grass-fed meats are changing the way producers are raising cattle. Grass-fed meat is not an additional amount of beef on the market, it's a replacement to the industry norm. It is a growing segment of the industry and is being caused by those that purchase this alternative, not by those that do not participate. Why is this concept so hard to understand, unless of course vegans have an agenda that must be maintained at all costs, regardless of fact. But yes, the amount of harm caused by the production of the > food one substitutes for factory-farmed beef should be > considered as > well. I don't have a proof that either one causes less harm > than the > other. Gaverick Matheny's calculations carry some weight with > me, but > they are just back of the envelope stuff and shouldn't be taken > as > proof. If you have any evidence to offer on the matter, let me > know. > >> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?cid=4&id=230 http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either, here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton. http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/ To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field, here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field. http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/natres/06507.html http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/pb1600.pdf http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...a=458&q=150643 http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/vol4fieldmouse.htm To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple dealing with power and communications. http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html http://www.towerkill.com/index.html >> > > |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
"Dave" > wrote in message oups.com... snip... eat meat, and that wasn't much impact at all. >> >> Surely it's about the same amount of impact as Rick makes by >> buying >> grass-fed beef. > > Exactly. Not eating intensively produced beef has about the > same > impact on the beef factories irrespective of whether you choose > to > eat extensively reared beef or plant foods instead. Thank you > for supplying the voice of reason and common sense. ======================= And, he is as wrong as you are. Buying grass-fed beef is not an additional amount of beef on the market. That's what it would have to be to have no impact on normal beef processing. Grass-fed beef is a *replacement* of the normal beef industry product. It is a large and growing portion of the beef supply. It IS an impact on the type of production that vegans decry, but do not have any say in since they have dropped out! > |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
rick wrote: > > wrote in message > oups.com... > > > > rick wrote: > >> > wrote in message > >> oups.com... > >> > > >> > >> snip... > >> > >> >> > No. No he's not. > >> >> > >> >> Yes, he is. "vegans" are not having any impact beyond > >> >> their > >> >> initial > >> >> refusal to eat meat, and that wasn't much impact at all. > >> > > >> > Surely it's about the same amount of impact as Rick makes by > >> > buying > >> > grass-fed beef. > >> ========================== > >> Really? tell us your proof. Step right up and demonstrate > >> how > >> just being vegan automatically causes no/less/fewer animals to > >> die and less environmental impact that eating grass-fed meats. > >> > > > > I wasn't really thinking about comparing the amount of harm > > caused by > > the production of grass-fed beef with the production of vegan > > food. My > > main thought was that both consumer choices involve boycotting > > factory-farmed beef, and the impact of this should be about the > > same in > > each case. > ========================= > No, it would not be. The vegan has no impact on the industry at > all. Yes, he or she does, he or she diminishes the demand for the product. The buyers of grass-fed beef also diminish the demand for the product. It is the same impact. The difference is that the buyer of grass-fed beef also contributes to the demand for a different product. > Those that buy grass-fed meats are changing the way > producers are raising cattle. Grass-fed meat is not an > additional amount of beef on the market, it's a replacement to > the industry norm. It is a growing segment of the industry and > is being caused by those that purchase this alternative, not by > those that do not participate. Why is this concept so hard to > understand, unless of course vegans have an agenda that must be > maintained at all costs, regardless of fact. > > > > But yes, the amount of harm caused by the production of the > > food one substitutes for factory-farmed beef should be > > considered as > > well. I don't have a proof that either one causes less harm > > than the > > other. Gaverick Matheny's calculations carry some weight with > > me, but > > they are just back of the envelope stuff and shouldn't be taken > > as > > proof. If you have any evidence to offer on the matter, let me > > know. > > > >> > > > http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm > http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html > http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm > http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html > http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html > http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm > http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf > http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?cid=4&id=230 > http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm > http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html > http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html > http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html > > > Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either, > here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton. > http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html > http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/ > > > To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field, > here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there > can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field. > http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/natres/06507.html > http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf > http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html > http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html > http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/pb1600.pdf > http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...a=458&q=150643 > http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/vol4fieldmouse.htm > > > > > To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and > maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple > dealing with power and communications. > http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html > http://www.towerkill.com/index.html > > >> > > > |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
Dutch wrote: > > wrote > > So, as I say, at the moment I'm comfortable with being vegan and > > advocating veganism, but I'm open to exploring alternatives. > > A vegan exploring alternatives is an oxymoron. If you are prepared to > explore alternatives to the simplistic idea of veganism then you aren't a > vegan. If I tell a vegan that I can improve their diet wrt animal death and > suffering by substituting some fish or game, he will always find a way to > deny, equivocate or refuse to listen to that idea. I'll be a vegan as long as I avoid meat, fish, dairy, and eggs. If I ever stop doing that, then I won't be a vegan anymore. If you tell me that you can improve my diet with respect to animal suffering by substituting some fish or game, I'll ask you for the detailed evidence. |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
Dutch wrote: > > wrote > > > Well, I would question whether we have the right to kill the cattle for > > food, unless it could somehow be shown that we were actually reducing > > the number of animal deaths by doing this. > > It is very reasonable to conclude that this is at least *sometimes* the > case, but why does the number of animals who live or who die have any > bearing on our right to use them as a food resource or kill them in > producing one? This is a silly notion that vegans swallow hook, line, and > sinker. Because we have an obligation not to kill sentient animals unnecessarily. |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
> wrote in message oups.com... > > rick wrote: >> > wrote in message >> oups.com... >> > >> > rick wrote: >> >> > wrote in message >> >> oups.com... >> >> > >> >> >> >> snip... >> >> >> >> >> > No. No he's not. >> >> >> >> >> >> Yes, he is. "vegans" are not having any impact beyond >> >> >> their >> >> >> initial >> >> >> refusal to eat meat, and that wasn't much impact at all. >> >> > >> >> > Surely it's about the same amount of impact as Rick makes >> >> > by >> >> > buying >> >> > grass-fed beef. >> >> ========================== >> >> Really? tell us your proof. Step right up and demonstrate >> >> how >> >> just being vegan automatically causes no/less/fewer animals >> >> to >> >> die and less environmental impact that eating grass-fed >> >> meats. >> >> >> > >> > I wasn't really thinking about comparing the amount of harm >> > caused by >> > the production of grass-fed beef with the production of >> > vegan >> > food. My >> > main thought was that both consumer choices involve >> > boycotting >> > factory-farmed beef, and the impact of this should be about >> > the >> > same in >> > each case. >> ========================= >> No, it would not be. The vegan has no impact on the industry >> at >> all. > > Yes, he or she does, he or she diminishes the demand for the > product. ========================== No, they do not. They are non-participants in the product. Not buying a product you don't buy, and never will has no effect on the market. I consume no llama wool from the andes, never have and never will. The production of llama wool in the andes is not in the least affected by my non-participation. And, I especially have no impact on how the process is completed. > The buyers of grass-fed beef also diminish the demand for the > product. ===================== No, they do not. The demand for beef is a demand for beef. The difference is the process, not the product. > It is the same impact. The difference is that the buyer of > grass-fed > beef also contributes to the demand for a different product. ======================== It is NOT a different product. It is BEEF. > >> Those that buy grass-fed meats are changing the way >> producers are raising cattle. Grass-fed meat is not an >> additional amount of beef on the market, it's a replacement to >> the industry norm. It is a growing segment of the industry >> and >> is being caused by those that purchase this alternative, not >> by >> those that do not participate. Why is this concept so hard to >> understand, unless of course vegans have an agenda that must >> be >> maintained at all costs, regardless of fact. >> >> >> >> But yes, the amount of harm caused by the production of the >> > food one substitutes for factory-farmed beef should be >> > considered as >> > well. I don't have a proof that either one causes less harm >> > than the >> > other. Gaverick Matheny's calculations carry some weight >> > with >> > me, but >> > they are just back of the envelope stuff and shouldn't be >> > taken >> > as >> > proof. If you have any evidence to offer on the matter, let >> > me >> > know. >> > >> >> >> >> >> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm >> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html >> http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm >> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html >> http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html >> http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm >> http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf >> http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?cid=4&id=230 >> http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm >> http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html >> http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html >> http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html >> >> >> Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either, >> here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton. >> http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html >> http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/ >> >> >> To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field, >> here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that >> there >> can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field. >> http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/natres/06507.html >> http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf >> http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html >> http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html >> http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/pb1600.pdf >> http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...a=458&q=150643 >> http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/vol4fieldmouse.htm >> >> >> >> >> To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and >> maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple >> dealing with power and communications. >> http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html >> http://www.towerkill.com/index.html >> >> >> > >> > > |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
> wrote in message oups.com... > > Dutch wrote: >> > wrote >> > So, as I say, at the moment I'm comfortable with being vegan >> > and >> > advocating veganism, but I'm open to exploring alternatives. >> >> A vegan exploring alternatives is an oxymoron. If you are >> prepared to >> explore alternatives to the simplistic idea of veganism then >> you aren't a >> vegan. If I tell a vegan that I can improve their diet wrt >> animal death and >> suffering by substituting some fish or game, he will always >> find a way to >> deny, equivocate or refuse to listen to that idea. > > I'll be a vegan as long as I avoid meat, fish, dairy, and eggs. > If I > ever stop doing that, then I won't be a vegan anymore. If you > tell me > that you can improve my diet with respect to animal suffering > by > substituting some fish or game, I'll ask you for the detailed > evidence. ========================== Then you should be able to provide evidence that your vegan diet automatically means you kill fewer animals. Or, in the very least, you should be able to tell us which foods that you do eat cause more/less death and suffering. Is rice better than potatoes? Brocolli better than corn? Bananas better than apples? The fact is, you don't know, and don't care since you have your simple rule for your simple mind, 'eat no meat.' Being vegan is also more than a diet. Why is the unnecessary death and suffering of animals for your entertainment just fine, but we can't eat them? > |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
> wrote in message oups.com... > > Dutch wrote: >> > wrote >> >> > Well, I would question whether we have the right to kill the >> > cattle for >> > food, unless it could somehow be shown that we were actually >> > reducing >> > the number of animal deaths by doing this. >> >> It is very reasonable to conclude that this is at least >> *sometimes* the >> case, but why does the number of animals who live or who die >> have any >> bearing on our right to use them as a food resource or kill >> them in >> producing one? This is a silly notion that vegans swallow >> hook, line, and >> sinker. > > Because we have an obligation not to kill sentient animals > unnecessarily. ===================== Then you're lying to yourself. Why are you here on usenet? This isn't necessary, and just for entertainment. It causes massive amounts of death and suffering to animals. All unnecessary! But then, it appears that to you, like most vegans, cows are somehow more sentient than other mammals, birds, reptiles, fish and amphibians. How is that possible? > |
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
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Can we do better?
rick wrote: > > wrote in message > ups.com... > > > > Dave wrote: > >> wrote: > > > snip... > > > >> Modern methods of crop cultivation require significant > >> chemical imputs in the form of synthetic fertilizers > >> and *cides, which can harm the environment as a > >> result of their production, transportation and usage. > >> In order to maintain soil fertility and keep pests under > >> control in traditional organic systems crop rotations > >> are normally used. I don't know if there are crop > >> rotations available that produce human consumable > >> crops on all of the land all the time but in practise > >> grass-clover leys seem to feature rather prominently. > >> It surely makes sense to have cattle grazing on such > >> a ley, and producing milk at the same time and veal > >> and beef are then natural byproducts of this. > >> > > > > Well, I would question whether we have the right to kill the > > cattle for > > food, unless it could somehow be shown that we were actually > > reducing > > the number of animal deaths by doing this. > ========================= > Quite easy to do when compared to your tofu meat substitutes. Do it, then. > And, if we don't have the 'right' to kill cattle for the food we > eat, why do we have the 'right' to kill field animals for the > food we eat? > We don't have the right to kill animals unnecessarily. Probably we don't have the right to kill as many animals in crop production as we do. I would support efforts to reform crop production. > > > > >> Animals can also benefit organic agriculture in > >> various other ways. For example, manure is > >> recognized as a good fertilizer, ducks like > >> eating slugs and pigs can dig over a patch to > >> remove weeds prior to planting. > >> > >> >From a least harm point of view, using any > >> reasonable criteria, I feel sure that > >> supermarket/resturant grains, legumes, > >> vegetables and nuts compare favourably > >> with supermarket/resturant meat, eggs > >> and dairy products but I think the best > >> option of all is to source both plant and > >> animal products from local organic farms > >> that you can trust, fish from handline > >> fisheries and nuts and wild plants from > >> local woodlands. > > > > I'm not altogether convinced about the animal products from > > organic > > farms. I think in most cases these would probably lead to more > > collateral deaths overall because of the extra land use. > ============================== > Why? You suggesting that regular animals of the fields can't > live in pastures with cattle? Replacing mono-culture crop fields > with pastures to graze cattle would *reduce* CDs. There is no > way that you can say that more animals are going to die from > pasture grazing that mono-culture food production. > Davis estimates that 7.5 animals/ha die in ruminant-pasture food production. > > The fish is an > > interesting suggestion. I'm not sure about that one. It would > > be nice > > to see some research done on this topic to determine what > > really causes > > the least harm. > ===================== > It isn't the veggies you eat... > Show me some evidence. > > > |
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Can we do better?
> wrote > > Dutch wrote: >> > wrote >> > So, as I say, at the moment I'm comfortable with being vegan and >> > advocating veganism, but I'm open to exploring alternatives. >> >> A vegan exploring alternatives is an oxymoron. If you are prepared to >> explore alternatives to the simplistic idea of veganism then you aren't a >> vegan. If I tell a vegan that I can improve their diet wrt animal death >> and >> suffering by substituting some fish or game, he will always find a way to >> deny, equivocate or refuse to listen to that idea. > > I'll be a vegan as long as I avoid meat, fish, dairy, and eggs. That just makes you a strict vegetarian. Veganism is based on a particular unwavering and completely irrational belief system. > If I > ever stop doing that, then I won't be a vegan anymore. If you tell me > that you can improve my diet with respect to animal suffering by > substituting some fish or game, I'll ask you for the detailed evidence. Of course you will, and no amount of "detailed evidence" I could present will ever be enough. |
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