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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 21-09-2005, 02:13 PM
Beach Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Vegan Honey - by Michael Greger, MD

Why Honey Is Vegan
By Michael Greger

http://www.satyamag.com/sept05/greger.html

All the Buzz Without the Bee

What looks like honey, feels like honey, and tastes like honey?
Suzanne’s Specialities’ Just Like Honey Rice Nectar is just like
honey except for one thing—it is bee-free. That’s right. This vegan
“honey” simply astounded the Satya staff. Putting bees out of
business, this sweetener made from brown rice, chicory, and maple
syrups, reigns as the new taste of vegan.

Gluten-free and GMO-free, this nectar is the perfect topping for
pancakes, waffles and oatmeal, and a delightful addition to tea. In
fact, long- time vegan, Roshni Koshy exclaimed that while she’s
typically a coffee drinker, she’s going to switch to drinking tea
just to flavor it with Just Like Honey. It lacks refined sugars and
is still better than any other sweetener. Winnie the Pooh wouldn’t be
able to tell the difference and neither will you. Order online at
www.suzannes-specialties.com. —S.I.
Honey hurts more than just bees. It hurts egg-laying hens, crammed in
battery cages so small they can’t spread their wings. It hurts mother
pigs, languishing for months in steel crates so narrow they can’t
turn around. And the billions of aquatic animals who, pulled from
filthy aquaculture farms, suffocate to death. All because honey hurts
our movement.

It’s happened to me over and over. Someone will ask me why I’m
vegan—it could be a new friend, co-worker, distant family, or a
complete stranger. I know I then have but a tiny window of
opportunity to indelibly convey their first impression of veganism.
I’m either going to open that window for that person, breezing in
fresh ideas and sunlight, or slam it shut as the blinds fall. So I
talk to them of mercy. Of the cats and dogs with whom they’ve shared
their lives. Of birds with a half piece of paper’s worth of space in
which to live and die. Of animals sometimes literally suffering to
death. I used to eat meat too, I tell them. Lots of meat. And I never
knew either.

Slowly but surely the horror dawns on them. You start to see them
struggling internally. How can they pet their dog with one hand and
stab a piece of pig with the other? They love animals, but they eat
animals. Then, just when their conscience seems to be winning out,
they learn that we don’t eat honey. And you can see the conflict
drain away with an almost visible sigh. They finally think they
understand what this whole “vegan” thing is all about. You’re not
vegan because you’re trying to be kind or compassionate—you’re just
crazy! They smile. They point. You almost had me going for a second,
they chuckle. Whew, that was a close one. They almost had to
seriously think about the issues. They may have just been considering
boycotting eggs, arguably the most concentrated form of animal
cruelty, and then the thought hits them that you’re standing up for
insect rights. Maybe they imagine us putting out little thimble-sized
bowls of food for the cockroaches every night.

I’m afraid that our public avoidance of honey is hurting us as a
movement. A certain number of bees are undeniably killed by honey
production, but far more insects are killed, for example, in sugar
production. And if we really cared about bugs we would never again
eat anything either at home or in a restaurant that wasn’t strictly
organically grown—after all, killing bugs is what pesticides do best.
And organic production uses pesticides too (albeit “natural”).
Researchers measure up to approximately 10,000 bugs per square foot
of soil—that’s over 400 million per acre, 250 trillion per square
mile. Even “veganically” grown produce involves the deaths of
countless bugs in lost habitat, tilling, harvesting and
transportation. We probably kill more bugs driving to the grocery
store to get some honey-sweetened product than are killed in the
product’s production.

Our position on honey therefore just doesn’t make any sense, and I
think the general population knows this on an intuitive level.
Veganism for them, then, becomes more about some quasi-religious
personal purity, rather than about stopping animal abuse. No wonder
veganism can seem nonsensical to the average person. We have this
kind of magical thinking; we feel good about ourselves as if we’re
actually helping the animals obsessing about where some trace
ingredient comes from, when in fact it may have the opposite effect.
We may be hurting animals by making veganism seem more like petty
dogmatic self-flagellation.

In my eyes, if we choose to avoid honey, fine. Let’s just not make a
huge production of it and force everybody to do the same if they want
to join the club.

Michael Greger, M.D. is a physician, vegan nutrition specialist, and
author of Carbophobia! The Scary Truth About America’s Low-Carb Craze
(Lantern). For more on the honey question, see Vegan Outreach’s Vegan
Starter Pack Q&A at http://www.veganoutreach.org/starterpack/qa.html

  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 23-09-2005, 01:21 AM
Joe
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi... not being critical of your statement and I agree with most of
what you commented on, but regarding bees, aren't many more-times more
bees being given a chance at living a somewhat 'natural' life [in
terms of free roaming/flying] by the existence of the industry [yes,
I'm aware of the distress/deaths caused by the bee-handling methods]?
Please, no venemous 'Usual Suspect' like responses to my remark-it's
just my opinion.
Also, one thing regarding the sweetener link... I was hoping to see
more of what ingredients and nutrients/amounts are actually in their
products and not just what's not in them. In the dialogue it says
'lacks refined sugars'-does that mean totally or to some degree?

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:13:52 GMT, Beach Runner wrote:

Why Honey Is Vegan
By Michael Greger

http://www.satyamag.com/sept05/greger.html

All the Buzz Without the Bee

What looks like honey, feels like honey, and tastes like honey?
Suzannes Specialities Just Like Honey Rice Nectar is just like
honey except for one thing€”it is bee-free. Thats right. This vegan
€śhoney€ť simply astounded the Satya staff. Putting bees out of
business, this sweetener made from brown rice, chicory, and maple
syrups, reigns as the new taste of vegan.

Gluten-free and GMO-free, this nectar is the perfect topping for
pancakes, waffles and oatmeal, and a delightful addition to tea. In
fact, long- time vegan, Roshni Koshy exclaimed that while shes
typically a coffee drinker, shes going to switch to drinking tea
just to flavor it with Just Like Honey. It lacks refined sugars and
is still better than any other sweetener. Winnie the Pooh wouldnt be
able to tell the difference and neither will you. Order online at
www.suzannes-specialties.com. €”S.I.
Honey hurts more than just bees. It hurts egg-laying hens, crammed in
battery cages so small they cant spread their wings. It hurts mother
pigs, languishing for months in steel crates so narrow they cant
turn around. And the billions of aquatic animals who, pulled from
filthy aquaculture farms, suffocate to death. All because honey hurts
our movement.

Its happened to me over and over. Someone will ask me why Im
vegan€”it could be a new friend, co-worker, distant family, or a
complete stranger. I know I then have but a tiny window of
opportunity to indelibly convey their first impression of veganism.
Im either going to open that window for that person, breezing in
fresh ideas and sunlight, or slam it shut as the blinds fall. So I
talk to them of mercy. Of the cats and dogs with whom theyve shared
their lives. Of birds with a half piece of papers worth of space in
which to live and die. Of animals sometimes literally suffering to
death. I used to eat meat too, I tell them. Lots of meat. And I never
knew either.

Slowly but surely the horror dawns on them. You start to see them
struggling internally. How can they pet their dog with one hand and
stab a piece of pig with the other? They love animals, but they eat
animals. Then, just when their conscience seems to be winning out,
they learn that we dont eat honey. And you can see the conflict
drain away with an almost visible sigh. They finally think they
understand what this whole €śvegan€ť thing is all about. Youre not
vegan because youre trying to be kind or compassionate€”youre just
crazy! They smile. They point. You almost had me going for a second,
they chuckle. Whew, that was a close one. They almost had to
seriously think about the issues. They may have just been considering
boycotting eggs, arguably the most concentrated form of animal
cruelty, and then the thought hits them that youre standing up for
insect rights. Maybe they imagine us putting out little thimble-sized
bowls of food for the cockroaches every night.

Im afraid that our public avoidance of honey is hurting us as a
movement. A certain number of bees are undeniably killed by honey
production, but far more insects are killed, for example, in sugar
production. And if we really cared about bugs we would never again
eat anything either at home or in a restaurant that wasnt strictly
organically grown€”after all, killing bugs is what pesticides do best.
And organic production uses pesticides too (albeit €śnatural€ť).
Researchers measure up to approximately 10,000 bugs per square foot
of soil€”thats over 400 million per acre, 250 trillion per square
mile. Even €śveganically€ť grown produce involves the deaths of
countless bugs in lost habitat, tilling, harvesting and
transportation. We probably kill more bugs driving to the grocery
store to get some honey-sweetened product than are killed in the
products production.

Our position on honey therefore just doesnt make any sense, and I
think the general population knows this on an intuitive level.
Veganism for them, then, becomes more about some quasi-religious
personal purity, rather than about stopping animal abuse. No wonder
veganism can seem nonsensical to the average person. We have this
kind of magical thinking; we feel good about ourselves as if were
actually helping the animals obsessing about where some trace
ingredient comes from, when in fact it may have the opposite effect.
We may be hurting animals by making veganism seem more like petty
dogmatic self-flagellation.

In my eyes, if we choose to avoid honey, fine. Lets just not make a
huge production of it and force everybody to do the same if they want
to join the club.

Michael Greger, M.D. is a physician, vegan nutrition specialist, and
author of Carbophobia! The Scary Truth About Americas Low-Carb Craze
(Lantern). For more on the honey question, see Vegan Outreachs Vegan
Starter Pack Q&A at http://www.veganoutreach.org/starterpack/qa.html


  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 24-09-2005, 12:48 AM
Beach Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Joe wrote:
Hi... not being critical of your statement and I agree with most of
what you commented on, but regarding bees, aren't many more-times more
bees being given a chance at living a somewhat 'natural' life [in
terms of free roaming/flying] by the existence of the industry [yes,
I'm aware of the distress/deaths caused by the bee-handling methods]?
Please, no venemous 'Usual Suspect' like responses to my remark-it's
just my opinion.
Also, one thing regarding the sweetener link... I was hoping to see
more of what ingredients and nutrients/amounts are actually in their
products and not just what's not in them. In the dialogue it says
'lacks refined sugars'-does that mean totally or to some degree?





You could write to Michael Gregor.

BTW, there's a declining population of honey bees in this nation from
all the use of pesticides.











On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:13:52 GMT, Beach Runner wrote:


Why Honey Is Vegan
By Michael Greger

http://www.satyamag.com/sept05/greger.html

All the Buzz Without the Bee

What looks like honey, feels like honey, and tastes like honey?
Suzannes Specialities Just Like Honey Rice Nectar is just like
honey except for one thing€”it is bee-free. Thats right. This vegan
€śhoney€ť simply astounded the Satya staff. Putting bees out of
business, this sweetener made from brown rice, chicory, and maple
syrups, reigns as the new taste of vegan.

Gluten-free and GMO-free, this nectar is the perfect topping for
pancakes, waffles and oatmeal, and a delightful addition to tea. In
fact, long- time vegan, Roshni Koshy exclaimed that while shes
typically a coffee drinker, shes going to switch to drinking tea
just to flavor it with Just Like Honey. It lacks refined sugars and
is still better than any other sweetener. Winnie the Pooh wouldnt be
able to tell the difference and neither will you. Order online at
www.suzannes-specialties.com. €”S.I.
Honey hurts more than just bees. It hurts egg-laying hens, crammed in
battery cages so small they cant spread their wings. It hurts mother
pigs, languishing for months in steel crates so narrow they cant
turn around. And the billions of aquatic animals who, pulled from
filthy aquaculture farms, suffocate to death. All because honey hurts
our movement.

Its happened to me over and over. Someone will ask me why Im
vegan€”it could be a new friend, co-worker, distant family, or a
complete stranger. I know I then have but a tiny window of
opportunity to indelibly convey their first impression of veganism.
Im either going to open that window for that person, breezing in
fresh ideas and sunlight, or slam it shut as the blinds fall. So I
talk to them of mercy. Of the cats and dogs with whom theyve shared
their lives. Of birds with a half piece of papers worth of space in
which to live and die. Of animals sometimes literally suffering to
death. I used to eat meat too, I tell them. Lots of meat. And I never
knew either.

Slowly but surely the horror dawns on them. You start to see them
struggling internally. How can they pet their dog with one hand and
stab a piece of pig with the other? They love animals, but they eat
animals. Then, just when their conscience seems to be winning out,
they learn that we dont eat honey. And you can see the conflict
drain away with an almost visible sigh. They finally think they
understand what this whole €śvegan€ť thing is all about. Youre not
vegan because youre trying to be kind or compassionate€”youre just
crazy! They smile. They point. You almost had me going for a second,
they chuckle. Whew, that was a close one. They almost had to
seriously think about the issues. They may have just been considering
boycotting eggs, arguably the most concentrated form of animal
cruelty, and then the thought hits them that youre standing up for
insect rights. Maybe they imagine us putting out little thimble-sized
bowls of food for the cockroaches every night.

Im afraid that our public avoidance of honey is hurting us as a
movement. A certain number of bees are undeniably killed by honey
production, but far more insects are killed, for example, in sugar
production. And if we really cared about bugs we would never again
eat anything either at home or in a restaurant that wasnt strictly
organically grown€”after all, killing bugs is what pesticides do best.
And organic production uses pesticides too (albeit €śnatural€ť).
Researchers measure up to approximately 10,000 bugs per square foot
of soil€”thats over 400 million per acre, 250 trillion per square
mile. Even €śveganically€ť grown produce involves the deaths of
countless bugs in lost habitat, tilling, harvesting and
transportation. We probably kill more bugs driving to the grocery
store to get some honey-sweetened product than are killed in the
products production.

Our position on honey therefore just doesnt make any sense, and I
think the general population knows this on an intuitive level.
Veganism for them, then, becomes more about some quasi-religious
personal purity, rather than about stopping animal abuse. No wonder
veganism can seem nonsensical to the average person. We have this
kind of magical thinking; we feel good about ourselves as if were
actually helping the animals obsessing about where some trace
ingredient comes from, when in fact it may have the opposite effect.
We may be hurting animals by making veganism seem more like petty
dogmatic self-flagellation.

In my eyes, if we choose to avoid honey, fine. Lets just not make a
huge production of it and force everybody to do the same if they want
to join the club.

Michael Greger, M.D. is a physician, vegan nutrition specialist, and
author of Carbophobia! The Scary Truth About Americas Low-Carb Craze
(Lantern). For more on the honey question, see Vegan Outreachs Vegan
Starter Pack Q&A at http://www.veganoutreach.org/starterpack/qa.html



  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 24-09-2005, 05:06 AM
Joe
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Would be sincerely interested in your best links to that fact about
decline in bee numbers--I heard that somewhere too.

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 23:48:24 GMT, Beach Runner wrote:



Joe wrote:
Hi... not being critical of your statement and I agree with most of
what you commented on, but regarding bees, aren't many more-times more
bees being given a chance at living a somewhat 'natural' life [in
terms of free roaming/flying] by the existence of the industry [yes,
I'm aware of the distress/deaths caused by the bee-handling methods]?
Please, no venemous 'Usual Suspect' like responses to my remark-it's
just my opinion.
Also, one thing regarding the sweetener link... I was hoping to see
more of what ingredients and nutrients/amounts are actually in their
products and not just what's not in them. In the dialogue it says
'lacks refined sugars'-does that mean totally or to some degree?





You could write to Michael Gregor.

BTW, there's a declining population of honey bees in this nation from
all the use of pesticides.











On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:13:52 GMT, Beach Runner wrote:


Why Honey Is Vegan
By Michael Greger

http://www.satyamag.com/sept05/greger.html

All the Buzz Without the Bee

What looks like honey, feels like honey, and tastes like honey?
Suzannes Specialities Just Like Honey Rice Nectar is just like
honey except for one thing€”it is bee-free. Thats right. This vegan
€śhoney€ť simply astounded the Satya staff. Putting bees out of
business, this sweetener made from brown rice, chicory, and maple
syrups, reigns as the new taste of vegan.

Gluten-free and GMO-free, this nectar is the perfect topping for
pancakes, waffles and oatmeal, and a delightful addition to tea. In
fact, long- time vegan, Roshni Koshy exclaimed that while shes
typically a coffee drinker, shes going to switch to drinking tea
just to flavor it with Just Like Honey. It lacks refined sugars and
is still better than any other sweetener. Winnie the Pooh wouldnt be
able to tell the difference and neither will you. Order online at
www.suzannes-specialties.com. €”S.I.
Honey hurts more than just bees. It hurts egg-laying hens, crammed in
battery cages so small they cant spread their wings. It hurts mother
pigs, languishing for months in steel crates so narrow they cant
turn around. And the billions of aquatic animals who, pulled from
filthy aquaculture farms, suffocate to death. All because honey hurts
our movement.

Its happened to me over and over. Someone will ask me why Im
vegan€”it could be a new friend, co-worker, distant family, or a
complete stranger. I know I then have but a tiny window of
opportunity to indelibly convey their first impression of veganism.
Im either going to open that window for that person, breezing in
fresh ideas and sunlight, or slam it shut as the blinds fall. So I
talk to them of mercy. Of the cats and dogs with whom theyve shared
their lives. Of birds with a half piece of papers worth of space in
which to live and die. Of animals sometimes literally suffering to
death. I used to eat meat too, I tell them. Lots of meat. And I never
knew either.

Slowly but surely the horror dawns on them. You start to see them
struggling internally. How can they pet their dog with one hand and
stab a piece of pig with the other? They love animals, but they eat
animals. Then, just when their conscience seems to be winning out,
they learn that we dont eat honey. And you can see the conflict
drain away with an almost visible sigh. They finally think they
understand what this whole €śvegan€ť thing is all about. Youre not
vegan because youre trying to be kind or compassionate€”youre just
crazy! They smile. They point. You almost had me going for a second,
they chuckle. Whew, that was a close one. They almost had to
seriously think about the issues. They may have just been considering
boycotting eggs, arguably the most concentrated form of animal
cruelty, and then the thought hits them that youre standing up for
insect rights. Maybe they imagine us putting out little thimble-sized
bowls of food for the cockroaches every night.

Im afraid that our public avoidance of honey is hurting us as a
movement. A certain number of bees are undeniably killed by honey
production, but far more insects are killed, for example, in sugar
production. And if we really cared about bugs we would never again
eat anything either at home or in a restaurant that wasnt strictly
organically grown€”after all, killing bugs is what pesticides do best.
And organic production uses pesticides too (albeit €śnatural€ť).
Researchers measure up to approximately 10,000 bugs per square foot
of soil€”thats over 400 million per acre, 250 trillion per square
mile. Even €śveganically€ť grown produce involves the deaths of
countless bugs in lost habitat, tilling, harvesting and
transportation. We probably kill more bugs driving to the grocery
store to get some honey-sweetened product than are killed in the
products production.

Our position on honey therefore just doesnt make any sense, and I
think the general population knows this on an intuitive level.
Veganism for them, then, becomes more about some quasi-religious
personal purity, rather than about stopping animal abuse. No wonder
veganism can seem nonsensical to the average person. We have this
kind of magical thinking; we feel good about ourselves as if were
actually helping the animals obsessing about where some trace
ingredient comes from, when in fact it may have the opposite effect.
We may be hurting animals by making veganism seem more like petty
dogmatic self-flagellation.

In my eyes, if we choose to avoid honey, fine. Lets just not make a
huge production of it and force everybody to do the same if they want
to join the club.

Michael Greger, M.D. is a physician, vegan nutrition specialist, and
author of Carbophobia! The Scary Truth About Americas Low-Carb Craze
(Lantern). For more on the honey question, see Vegan Outreachs Vegan
Starter Pack Q&A at http://www.veganoutreach.org/starterpack/qa.html




  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 27-09-2005, 02:12 PM
Beach Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default


A
Joe wrote:
Would be sincerely interested in your best links to that fact about
decline in bee numbers--I heard that somewhere too.


A quick google search found National Geographic's

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...honeybees.html

others are
http://www.pulseplanet.com/archive/Oct04/3287.html

West Virginia Agricultural
http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/ipm/inse...t/contbees.htm

NAS
http://www4.nas.edu/webcr.nsf/Commit...A?OpenDocument

Should be clear it's a real problem.
On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 23:48:24 GMT, Beach Runner wrote:



Joe wrote:

Hi... not being critical of your statement and I agree with most of
what you commented on, but regarding bees, aren't many more-times more
bees being given a chance at living a somewhat 'natural' life [in
terms of free roaming/flying] by the existence of the industry [yes,
I'm aware of the distress/deaths caused by the bee-handling methods]?
Please, no venemous 'Usual Suspect' like responses to my remark-it's
just my opinion.
Also, one thing regarding the sweetener link... I was hoping to see
more of what ingredients and nutrients/amounts are actually in their
products and not just what's not in them. In the dialogue it says
'lacks refined sugars'-does that mean totally or to some degree?





You could write to Michael Gregor.

BTW, there's a declining population of honey bees in this nation from
all the use of pesticides.











On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:13:52 GMT, Beach Runner wrote:



Why Honey Is Vegan
By Michael Greger

http://www.satyamag.com/sept05/greger.html

All the Buzz Without the Bee

What looks like honey, feels like honey, and tastes like honey?
Suzannes Specialities Just Like Honey Rice Nectar is just like
honey except for one thing€”it is bee-free. Thats right. This vegan
€śhoney€ť simply astounded the Satya staff. Putting bees out of
business, this sweetener made from brown rice, chicory, and maple
syrups, reigns as the new taste of vegan.

Gluten-free and GMO-free, this nectar is the perfect topping for
pancakes, waffles and oatmeal, and a delightful addition to tea. In
fact, long- time vegan, Roshni Koshy exclaimed that while shes
typically a coffee drinker, shes going to switch to drinking tea
just to flavor it with Just Like Honey. It lacks refined sugars and
is still better than any other sweetener. Winnie the Pooh wouldnt be
able to tell the difference and neither will you. Order online at
www.suzannes-specialties.com. €”S.I.
Honey hurts more than just bees. It hurts egg-laying hens, crammed in
battery cages so small they cant spread their wings. It hurts mother
pigs, languishing for months in steel crates so narrow they cant
turn around. And the billions of aquatic animals who, pulled from
filthy aquaculture farms, suffocate to death. All because honey hurts
our movement.

Its happened to me over and over. Someone will ask me why Im
vegan€”it could be a new friend, co-worker, distant family, or a
complete stranger. I know I then have but a tiny window of
opportunity to indelibly convey their first impression of veganism.
Im either going to open that window for that person, breezing in
fresh ideas and sunlight, or slam it shut as the blinds fall. So I
talk to them of mercy. Of the cats and dogs with whom theyve shared
their lives. Of birds with a half piece of papers worth of space in
which to live and die. Of animals sometimes literally suffering to
death. I used to eat meat too, I tell them. Lots of meat. And I never
knew either.

Slowly but surely the horror dawns on them. You start to see them
struggling internally. How can they pet their dog with one hand and
stab a piece of pig with the other? They love animals, but they eat
animals. Then, just when their conscience seems to be winning out,
they learn that we dont eat honey. And you can see the conflict
drain away with an almost visible sigh. They finally think they
understand what this whole €śvegan€ť thing is all about. Youre not
vegan because youre trying to be kind or compassionate€”youre just
crazy! They smile. They point. You almost had me going for a second,
they chuckle. Whew, that was a close one. They almost had to
seriously think about the issues. They may have just been considering
boycotting eggs, arguably the most concentrated form of animal
cruelty, and then the thought hits them that youre standing up for
insect rights. Maybe they imagine us putting out little thimble-sized
bowls of food for the cockroaches every night.

Im afraid that our public avoidance of honey is hurting us as a
movement. A certain number of bees are undeniably killed by honey
production, but far more insects are killed, for example, in sugar
production. And if we really cared about bugs we would never again
eat anything either at home or in a restaurant that wasnt strictly
organically grown€”after all, killing bugs is what pesticides do best.
And organic production uses pesticides too (albeit €śnatural€ť).
Researchers measure up to approximately 10,000 bugs per square foot
of soil€”thats over 400 million per acre, 250 trillion per square
mile. Even €śveganically€ť grown produce involves the deaths of
countless bugs in lost habitat, tilling, harvesting and
transportation. We probably kill more bugs driving to the grocery
store to get some honey-sweetened product than are killed in the
products production.

Our position on honey therefore just doesnt make any sense, and I
think the general population knows this on an intuitive level.
Veganism for them, then, becomes more about some quasi-religious
personal purity, rather than about stopping animal abuse. No wonder
veganism can seem nonsensical to the average person. We have this
kind of magical thinking; we feel good about ourselves as if were
actually helping the animals obsessing about where some trace
ingredient comes from, when in fact it may have the opposite effect.
We may be hurting animals by making veganism seem more like petty
dogmatic self-flagellation.

In my eyes, if we choose to avoid honey, fine. Lets just not make a
huge production of it and force everybody to do the same if they want
to join the club.

Michael Greger, M.D. is a physician, vegan nutrition specialist, and
author of Carbophobia! The Scary Truth About Americas Low-Carb Craze
(Lantern). For more on the honey question, see Vegan Outreachs Vegan
Starter Pack Q&A at http://www.veganoutreach.org/starterpack/qa.html





  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 27-09-2005, 07:40 PM
Joe
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks for the links BR,
I could've googled about, but I find there are excellent link
resources provided in this group.
It's quite a bad situation. With all the info so readily available on
eating healthy, it's a tragic shame so many amongst us choose to be
animal-fat guzzling baboons [ no disrespect to the primates], and
teach their kids to opt for chemically enhanced tastes of foods rather
than vegetarian richness. Well, as much as I can I hint off-handedly
with nutritional blah-blah to my acquaintances one doesn't need meat
in their diet at all; and in some cases it works! I'll now add they
should opt for organic honey over non-organic sugars, and buttress up
the bee population/industry, as well as encourage vigorous vigilence
on their survival-hopefully.

On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 13:12:28 GMT, Beach Runner wrote:


A
Joe wrote:
Would be sincerely interested in your best links to that fact about
decline in bee numbers--I heard that somewhere too.


A quick google search found National Geographic's

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...honeybees.html

others are
http://www.pulseplanet.com/archive/Oct04/3287.html

West Virginia Agricultural
http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/ipm/inse...t/contbees.htm

NAS
http://www4.nas.edu/webcr.nsf/Commit...A?OpenDocument

Should be clear it's a real problem.
On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 23:48:24 GMT, Beach Runner wrote:



Joe wrote:

Hi... not being critical of your statement and I agree with most of
what you commented on, but regarding bees, aren't many more-times more
bees being given a chance at living a somewhat 'natural' life [in
terms of free roaming/flying] by the existence of the industry [yes,
I'm aware of the distress/deaths caused by the bee-handling methods]?
Please, no venemous 'Usual Suspect' like responses to my remark-it's
just my opinion.
Also, one thing regarding the sweetener link... I was hoping to see
more of what ingredients and nutrients/amounts are actually in their
products and not just what's not in them. In the dialogue it says
'lacks refined sugars'-does that mean totally or to some degree?




You could write to Michael Gregor.

BTW, there's a declining population of honey bees in this nation from
all the use of pesticides.











On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:13:52 GMT, Beach Runner wrote:



Why Honey Is Vegan
By Michael Greger

http://www.satyamag.com/sept05/greger.html

All the Buzz Without the Bee

What looks like honey, feels like honey, and tastes like honey?
Suzannes Specialities Just Like Honey Rice Nectar is just like
honey except for one thing€”it is bee-free. Thats right. This vegan
€śhoney€ť simply astounded the Satya staff. Putting bees out of
business, this sweetener made from brown rice, chicory, and maple
syrups, reigns as the new taste of vegan.

Gluten-free and GMO-free, this nectar is the perfect topping for
pancakes, waffles and oatmeal, and a delightful addition to tea. In
fact, long- time vegan, Roshni Koshy exclaimed that while shes
typically a coffee drinker, shes going to switch to drinking tea
just to flavor it with Just Like Honey. It lacks refined sugars and
is still better than any other sweetener. Winnie the Pooh wouldnt be
able to tell the difference and neither will you. Order online at
www.suzannes-specialties.com. €”S.I.
Honey hurts more than just bees. It hurts egg-laying hens, crammed in
battery cages so small they cant spread their wings. It hurts mother
pigs, languishing for months in steel crates so narrow they cant
turn around. And the billions of aquatic animals who, pulled from
filthy aquaculture farms, suffocate to death. All because honey hurts
our movement.

Its happened to me over and over. Someone will ask me why Im
vegan€”it could be a new friend, co-worker, distant family, or a
complete stranger. I know I then have but a tiny window of
opportunity to indelibly convey their first impression of veganism.
Im either going to open that window for that person, breezing in
fresh ideas and sunlight, or slam it shut as the blinds fall. So I
talk to them of mercy. Of the cats and dogs with whom theyve shared
their lives. Of birds with a half piece of papers worth of space in
which to live and die. Of animals sometimes literally suffering to
death. I used to eat meat too, I tell them. Lots of meat. And I never
knew either.

Slowly but surely the horror dawns on them. You start to see them
struggling internally. How can they pet their dog with one hand and
stab a piece of pig with the other? They love animals, but they eat
animals. Then, just when their conscience seems to be winning out,
they learn that we dont eat honey. And you can see the conflict
drain away with an almost visible sigh. They finally think they
understand what this whole €śvegan€ť thing is all about. Youre not
vegan because youre trying to be kind or compassionate€”youre just
crazy! They smile. They point. You almost had me going for a second,
they chuckle. Whew, that was a close one. They almost had to
seriously think about the issues. They may have just been considering
boycotting eggs, arguably the most concentrated form of animal
cruelty, and then the thought hits them that youre standing up for
insect rights. Maybe they imagine us putting out little thimble-sized
bowls of food for the cockroaches every night.

Im afraid that our public avoidance of honey is hurting us as a
movement. A certain number of bees are undeniably killed by honey
production, but far more insects are killed, for example, in sugar
production. And if we really cared about bugs we would never again
eat anything either at home or in a restaurant that wasnt strictly
organically grown€”after all, killing bugs is what pesticides do best.
And organic production uses pesticides too (albeit €śnatural€ť).
Researchers measure up to approximately 10,000 bugs per square foot
of soil€”thats over 400 million per acre, 250 trillion per square
mile. Even €śveganically€ť grown produce involves the deaths of
countless bugs in lost habitat, tilling, harvesting and
transportation. We probably kill more bugs driving to the grocery
store to get some honey-sweetened product than are killed in the
products production.

Our position on honey therefore just doesnt make any sense, and I
think the general population knows this on an intuitive level.
Veganism for them, then, becomes more about some quasi-religious
personal purity, rather than about stopping animal abuse. No wonder
veganism can seem nonsensical to the average person. We have this
kind of magical thinking; we feel good about ourselves as if were
actually helping the animals obsessing about where some trace
ingredient comes from, when in fact it may have the opposite effect.
We may be hurting animals by making veganism seem more like petty
dogmatic self-flagellation.

In my eyes, if we choose to avoid honey, fine. Lets just not make a
huge production of it and force everybody to do the same if they want
to join the club.

Michael Greger, M.D. is a physician, vegan nutrition specialist, and
author of Carbophobia! The Scary Truth About Americas Low-Carb Craze
(Lantern). For more on the honey question, see Vegan Outreachs Vegan
Starter Pack Q&A at http://www.veganoutreach.org/starterpack/qa.html




  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 02-10-2005, 08:51 PM
MadAsAFish_NewsGroups
 
Posts: n/a
Default


What looks like honey, feels like honey, and tastes like honey?
Suzanne's Specialities' Just Like Honey Rice Nectar is just like
honey except for one thing-it is bee-free. That's right. This vegan
"honey" simply astounded the Satya staff. Putting bees out of
business, this sweetener made from brown rice, chicory, and maple
syrups, reigns as the new taste of vegan.



Never heard of Suzanne's Specialties.
Where can I buy this stuff in UK?

Bill


  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 03-10-2005, 10:17 AM
P Darby
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"MadAsAFish_NewsGroups" wrote in message
o.uk...

What looks like honey, feels like honey, and tastes like honey?
Suzanne's Specialities' Just Like Honey Rice Nectar is just like
honey except for one thing-it is bee-free. That's right. This vegan
"honey" simply astounded the Satya staff. Putting bees out of
business, this sweetener made from brown rice, chicory, and maple
syrups, reigns as the new taste of vegan.



Never heard of Suzanne's Specialties.
Where can I buy this stuff in UK?



Don't know UK, but Suzanne's Specialties US number is
800-762-2135
or
732-828-8500


  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-10-2005, 05:39 PM
captain ahab
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Joe wrote:

STOP TOP-POSTING, you ****ant.

It's quite a bad situation. With all the info so readily available on
eating healthy, it's a tragic shame so many amongst us choose to be
animal-fat guzzling baboons [ no disrespect to the primates], and
teach their kids to opt for chemically enhanced tastes of foods rather
than vegetarian richness.


"Enhancing" the flavor of foods is not unique to humans or to this
generation.

Nishida [1991] provides an impressive listing of the differences
in feeding behavior of chimpanzees, baboons, and monkeys. Of
possible interest to raw-fooders is his description of the
macaques of Koshima Island, Japan dipping food into seawater for
seasoning (some raw-food advocates stridently condemn the
practice of seasoning foods). Of course, that non-human primates
display cultural food preferences suggests human cultural food
preferences are an extension of that feature.
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/...-anat-3c.shtml

Well, as much as I can I hint off-handedly
with nutritional blah-blah to my acquaintances


Why would you do that to others? Seriously, do you think your
acquaintance (note you don't call them friends) give a rat's ass for
your misinformation and the eating disorder you've acquired from it? Why
would you begrudge them the ENJOYMENT of their food?

one doesn't need meat in their diet at all;


So what. You also don't "need" fruit or vegetables. Or grains. Or
legumes. There's a lot you can get by without for a very long time.

and in some cases it works!


Works how -- in alienating people from going beyond the "acquaintance"
stage with you?

I'll now add they
should opt for organic honey over non-organic sugars, and buttress up
the bee population/industry, as well as encourage vigorous vigilence
on their survival-hopefully.


Thus ensuring you'll ever have friends by demonstrating your peculiar
and bizzarre contempt and disrespect for what others choose to consume.
People don't want lectures from blithering dipshits like you. They want
to enjoy themselves. Leave them be.
  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-10-2005, 06:23 PM
Scented Nectar
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"private ahab" wrote in message
...

Thus ensuring you'll ever have friends by demonstrating your peculiar
and bizzarre contempt and disrespect for what others choose to consume.
People don't want lectures from blithering dipshits like you. They want
to enjoy themselves. Leave them be.


Why are you hanging out in a vegan
newsgroup? Wouldn't you rather be
with your dead body eating peers?


--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/




  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-10-2005, 06:41 PM
captain ahab
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Skanky wrote:
Thus ensuring you'll never have friends by demonstrating your peculiar
and bizzarre contempt and disrespect for what others choose to consume.
People don't want lectures from blithering dipshits like you. They want
to enjoy themselves. Leave them be.


Why are you hanging out in a vegan
newsgroup?


I'm not "hanging out." I'm contributing to the flow of issues and ideas.

Wouldn't you rather be
with your dead body eating peers?


They don't eat "dead bodies" and I've already finished my lunch.
  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 12-10-2005, 06:29 AM
Scented Nectar
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"private ahab" wrote in message
...
Skanky wrote:
Thus ensuring you'll never have friends by demonstrating your peculiar
and bizzarre contempt and disrespect for what others choose to consume.
People don't want lectures from blithering dipshits like you. They want
to enjoy themselves. Leave them be.


Why are you hanging out in a vegan
newsgroup?


I'm not "hanging out." I'm contributing to the flow of issues and ideas.

Wouldn't you rather be
with your dead body eating peers?


They don't eat "dead bodies" and I've already finished my lunch.


They are eating bodies, and they are
dead. Therefore they are eating dead
bodies. Do you think pork chops grow
on trees? Don't you have any work to
do Jon?


--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/




  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 12-10-2005, 08:47 PM
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Skanky wrote:
Thus ensuring you'll never have friends by demonstrating your peculiar
and bizzarre contempt and disrespect for what others choose to consume.
People don't want lectures from blithering dipshits like you. They want
to enjoy themselves. Leave them be.

Why are you hanging out in a vegan
newsgroup?


I'm not "hanging out." I'm contributing to the flow of issues and ideas.

Wouldn't you rather be
with your dead body eating peers?


They don't eat "dead bodies" and I've already finished my lunch.


They are eating bodies


No, they're eating meat.

Don't you have any work to do Jon?


That's not my name, Skanky.
  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 13-10-2005, 06:22 AM
Scented Nectar
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"usual suspect" wrote in message
...
Skanky wrote:
Thus ensuring you'll never have friends by demonstrating your peculiar
and bizzarre contempt and disrespect for what others choose to

consume.
People don't want lectures from blithering dipshits like you. They

want
to enjoy themselves. Leave them be.

Why are you hanging out in a vegan
newsgroup?

I'm not "hanging out." I'm contributing to the flow of issues and ideas.

Wouldn't you rather be
with your dead body eating peers?

They don't eat "dead bodies" and I've already finished my lunch.


They are eating bodies


No, they're eating meat.


What do you think meat is, a
vegetable? It's body parts. If
you're going to tout it, at least
admit what it is.

Don't you have any work to do Jon?


That's not my name, Skanky.


So why were you using a different
pseudonym? You should know by
now that most of your insults sound
just like Gooby.


--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/




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