Would be sincerely interested in your best links to that fact about
decline in bee numbers--I heard that somewhere too.

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 23:48:24 GMT, Beach Runner > wrote:

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>Joe wrote:
>> Hi... not being critical of your statement and I agree with most of
>> what you commented on, but regarding bees, aren't many more-times more
>> bees being given a chance at living a somewhat 'natural' life [in
>> terms of free roaming/flying] by the existence of the industry [yes,
>> I'm aware of the distress/deaths caused by the bee-handling methods]?
>> Please, no venemous 'Usual Suspect' like responses to my remark-it's
>> just my opinion.
>> Also, one thing regarding the sweetener link... I was hoping to see
>> more of what ingredients and nutrients/amounts are actually in their
>> products and not just what's not in them. In the dialogue it says
>> 'lacks refined sugars'-does that mean totally or to some degree?
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>You could write to Michael Gregor.
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>BTW, there's a declining population of honey bees in this nation from
>all the use of pesticides.
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>> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:13:52 GMT, Beach Runner > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Why Honey Is Vegan
>>>By Michael Greger
>>>
>>>http://www.satyamag.com/sept05/greger.html
>>>
>>>All the Buzz Without the Bee
>>>
>>>What looks like honey, feels like honey, and tastes like honey?
>>>Suzannes Specialities Just Like Honey Rice Nectar is just like
>>>honey except for one thing€”it is bee-free. Thats right. This vegan
>>>€œhoney€� simply astounded the Satya staff. Putting bees out of
>>>business, this sweetener made from brown rice, chicory, and maple
>>>syrups, reigns as the new taste of vegan.
>>>
>>>Gluten-free and GMO-free, this nectar is the perfect topping for
>>>pancakes, waffles and oatmeal, and a delightful addition to tea. In
>>>fact, long- time vegan, Roshni Koshy exclaimed that while shes
>>>typically a coffee drinker, shes going to switch to drinking tea
>>>just to flavor it with Just Like Honey. It lacks refined sugars and
>>>is still better than any other sweetener. Winnie the Pooh wouldnt be
>>>able to tell the difference and neither will you. Order online at
>>>www.suzannes-specialties.com. €”S.I.
>>>Honey hurts more than just bees. It hurts egg-laying hens, crammed in
>>>battery cages so small they cant spread their wings. It hurts mother
>>>pigs, languishing for months in steel crates so narrow they cant
>>>turn around. And the billions of aquatic animals who, pulled from
>>>filthy aquaculture farms, suffocate to death. All because honey hurts
>>>our movement.
>>>
>>>Its happened to me over and over. Someone will ask me why Im
>>>vegan€”it could be a new friend, co-worker, distant family, or a
>>>complete stranger. I know I then have but a tiny window of
>>>opportunity to indelibly convey their first impression of veganism.
>>>Im either going to open that window for that person, breezing in
>>>fresh ideas and sunlight, or slam it shut as the blinds fall. So I
>>>talk to them of mercy. Of the cats and dogs with whom theyve shared
>>>their lives. Of birds with a half piece of papers worth of space in
>>>which to live and die. Of animals sometimes literally suffering to
>>>death. I used to eat meat too, I tell them. Lots of meat. And I never
>>>knew either.
>>>
>>>Slowly but surely the horror dawns on them. You start to see them
>>>struggling internally. How can they pet their dog with one hand and
>>>stab a piece of pig with the other? They love animals, but they eat
>>>animals. Then, just when their conscience seems to be winning out,
>>>they learn that we dont eat honey. And you can see the conflict
>>>drain away with an almost visible sigh. They finally think they
>>>understand what this whole €œvegan€� thing is all about. Youre not
>>>vegan because youre trying to be kind or compassionate€”youre just
>>>crazy! They smile. They point. You almost had me going for a second,
>>>they chuckle. Whew, that was a close one. They almost had to
>>>seriously think about the issues. They may have just been considering
>>>boycotting eggs, arguably the most concentrated form of animal
>>>cruelty, and then the thought hits them that youre standing up for
>>>insect rights. Maybe they imagine us putting out little thimble-sized
>>>bowls of food for the cockroaches every night.
>>>
>>>Im afraid that our public avoidance of honey is hurting us as a
>>>movement. A certain number of bees are undeniably killed by honey
>>>production, but far more insects are killed, for example, in sugar
>>>production. And if we really cared about bugs we would never again
>>>eat anything either at home or in a restaurant that wasnt strictly
>>>organically grown€”after all, killing bugs is what pesticides do best.
>>>And organic production uses pesticides too (albeit €œnatural€�).
>>>Researchers measure up to approximately 10,000 bugs per square foot
>>>of soil€”thats over 400 million per acre, 250 trillion per square
>>>mile. Even €œveganically€� grown produce involves the deaths of
>>>countless bugs in lost habitat, tilling, harvesting and
>>>transportation. We probably kill more bugs driving to the grocery
>>>store to get some honey-sweetened product than are killed in the
>>>products production.
>>>
>>>Our position on honey therefore just doesnt make any sense, and I
>>>think the general population knows this on an intuitive level.
>>>Veganism for them, then, becomes more about some quasi-religious
>>>personal purity, rather than about stopping animal abuse. No wonder
>>>veganism can seem nonsensical to the average person. We have this
>>>kind of magical thinking; we feel good about ourselves as if were
>>>actually helping the animals obsessing about where some trace
>>>ingredient comes from, when in fact it may have the opposite effect.
>>>We may be hurting animals by making veganism seem more like petty
>>>dogmatic self-flagellation.
>>>
>>>In my eyes, if we choose to avoid honey, fine. Lets just not make a
>>>huge production of it and force everybody to do the same if they want
>>>to join the club.
>>>
>>>Michael Greger, M.D. is a physician, vegan nutrition specialist, and
>>>author of Carbophobia! The Scary Truth About Americas Low-Carb Craze
>>>(Lantern). For more on the honey question, see Vegan Outreachs Vegan
>>>Starter Pack Q&A at http://www.veganoutreach.org/starterpack/qa.html
>>
>>