Tea (rec.drink.tea) Discussion relating to tea, the world's second most consumed beverage (after water), made by infusing or boiling the leaves of the tea plant (C. sinensis or close relatives) in water.

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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Sara Hawk
 
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Default water temperature and green tea

Hi all,
I don't want to open yet another debate on tea. Please, if you feel the
need to flame, select another topic. I just need answers to a couple of
questions.

As a long time black tea / tisane drinker, tea to me meant boiling some
water, pouring it over tea leaves / herbs and decanting after some time.
Only within the last 5 years have I been introduced to other kinds of tea
and other methods of preparation. And even though I've done it for some
time now, I don't feel that I've mastered those techniques either. I still
use a thermometer and I often start over. I have several questions about
this:

1. What happens to tea if the water isn't hot enough? I understand that if
the water is too hot, it 'burns off' some of the compounds so they evaporate
quickly and the taste changes. So, by this logic, wouldn't a longer brew
time in cooler water result in similar brew? I tried this with some greens
that I have, and it was about the same. I've really not got any expensive
greens yet (waiting for my order) so I can't tell whether it's like that
with them too. What is your view?
2. Several of the greens that I've tried have a sort of a spinach taste to
them. Is this a desirable taste in greens? If not, what am I doing wrong
to produce this kind of a taste?
3. Do you prefer to heat the water to the desired temperature or to boil it
and let it cool to that temperature? If you have a preference, why?
4. Do you like your tea strong or weak? I seem to prefer weak, I usually
disagree with amounts of tea recommended. This has also changed once I
started to get some better quality leaves - they don't brew the same way
that grocery store loose leaf tea brews. With those I used to brew only
about 1/4 of recommended amount but with whole leaves I tend to brew about
1/2 amt recommended. I've also heard of people using a scale to weight the
leaves so they get an exact amount. Where does one find such a scale?
(It'd have to be able to weigh grams accurately, right?)

Thanks for all your help,

~sara


  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
Joanne Rosen
 
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Default water temperature and green tea


>
> 1. What happens to tea if the water isn't hot enough? I understand that

if
> the water is too hot, it 'burns off' some of the compounds so they

evaporate
> quickly and the taste changes. So, by this logic, wouldn't a longer brew
> time in cooler water result in similar brew? I tried this with some

greens
> that I have, and it was about the same. I've really not got any expensive
> greens yet (waiting for my order) so I can't tell whether it's like that
> with them too. What is your view?


what types of green tea have you tried?

> 2. Several of the greens that I've tried have a sort of a spinach taste to
> them. Is this a desirable taste in greens? If not, what am I doing wrong
> to produce this kind of a taste?


some of teas do have a distinctive spinach taste-
i do not like these-

> 3. Do you prefer to heat the water to the desired temperature or to boil

it
> and let it cool to that temperature? If you have a preference, why?


i heat water to desired temperature- using either a thermometer or my
eyes(looking at bubbles)

> 4. Do you like your tea strong or weak?

I seem to prefer weak-
i do -
i usually use the suggested amount-wooden tea spoon

joanne


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  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ripon
 
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Default water temperature and green tea

"Sara Hawk" > wrote in message news:<Lfswb.295275$Fm2.311652@attbi_s04>...
> Hi all,
> I don't want to open yet another debate on tea. Please, if you feel the
> need to flame, select another topic. I just need answers to a couple of
> questions.


> As a long time black tea / tisane drinker, tea to me meant boiling some
> water, pouring it over tea leaves / herbs and decanting after some time.
> Only within the last 5 years have I been introduced to other kinds of tea
> and other methods of preparation. And even though I've done it for some
> time now, I don't feel that I've mastered those techniques either. I still
> use a thermometer and I often start over. I have several questions about
> this:
>
> 1. What happens to tea if the water isn't hot enough?


Then the tea leafs won't release the full fragrance and taste. Your
folded tea leafs needs to be unfolded with proper water temperature.

I understand that if
> the water is too hot, it 'burns off' some of the compounds so they evaporate
> quickly and the taste changes.


Very true.

So, by this logic, wouldn't a longer brew
> time in cooler water result in similar brew? I tried this with some greens
> that I have, and it was about the same. I've really not got any expensive
> greens yet (waiting for my order) so I can't tell whether it's like that
> with them too. What is your view?


when you boil your water- some minerals start loosing it's contains.
This contains has a reaction with tea. So over boiling water loose too
much minerals with might makes the taste of your tea- dull, flat,
biter etc.

> 2. Several of the greens that I've tried have a sort of a spinach taste to
> them. Is this a desirable taste in greens? If not, what am I doing wrong
> to produce this kind of a taste?


Most probably you are over steeping your tea,can be for the qualities
of the green tea and also the water. Quality of water is very
important too.

> 3. Do you prefer to heat the water to the desired temperature or to boil it
> and let it cool to that temperature? If you have a preference, why?


for my green tea only:- when the water is near to roiling boil, i stop
hiting the water then wait 30 seconds(Cool down the water a little)
and start steeping my green tea. Also depend which brewing method I am
using- Gaiwan or kettle. My advice is for green tea-Kung Fu Cha
brewing method is not good.

> 4. Do you like your tea strong or weak? I seem to prefer weak, I usually
> disagree with amounts of tea recommended. This has also changed once I
> started to get some better quality leaves - they don't brew the same way
> that grocery store loose leaf tea brews. With those I used to brew only
> about 1/4 of recommended amount but with whole leaves I tend to brew about
> 1/2 amt recommended. I've also heard of people using a scale to weight the
> leaves so they get an exact amount. Where does one find such a scale?
> (It'd have to be able to weigh grams accurately, right?)


Well, its depend what types of tea I am drinking. For black I always
prefer strong. Green and oolong light. I also disagree with tea amount
recommendation but I try to follow some standard basic. Quality of tea
is important, always. I think when someone always makes tea-scale is
not so important as long as i have a tea spoon with me. Well you can
also use a regular scale for spices.

Again about steeping your tea- just follow your heart. I strongly
believe little bit of extra or less loose tea doesn't change the taste
much. Also little high or low water temperature and one minute (+,-)
doesn't matter. You know your taste better then anyone else.

Enjoy your cup of tea.

Ripon
(From Bangladesh)



> ~sara

  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
Debbie Deutsch
 
Posts: n/a
Default water temperature and green tea

"Sara Hawk" > wrote in
news:Lfswb.295275$Fm2.311652@attbi_s04:

> Hi all,
> I don't want to open yet another debate on tea. Please, if you feel
> the need to flame, select another topic. I just need answers to a
> couple of questions.


The questions you ask are important, and have indeed been discussed here
before with a great deal of vigor. :-)

>
> As a long time black tea / tisane drinker, tea to me meant boiling
> some water, pouring it over tea leaves / herbs and decanting after
> some time. Only within the last 5 years have I been introduced to
> other kinds of tea and other methods of preparation. And even though
> I've done it for some time now, I don't feel that I've mastered those
> techniques either. I still use a thermometer and I often start over.
> I have several questions about this:
>
> 1. What happens to tea if the water isn't hot enough? I understand
> that if the water is too hot, it 'burns off' some of the compounds so
> they evaporate quickly and the taste changes. So, by this logic,
> wouldn't a longer brew time in cooler water result in similar brew? I
> tried this with some greens that I have, and it was about the same.
> I've really not got any expensive greens yet (waiting for my order) so
> I can't tell whether it's like that with them too. What is your view?


The flavors in tea come from various compounds in it. Some compounds
dissolve at lower temperatures, some need higher temperatures. Some
dissolve quickly, others slowly. So, a long steep at a low temperature
is not necessarily the same as a short steep at a higher temperature.
See below.

> 2. Several of the greens that I've tried have a sort of a spinach
> taste to them. Is this a desirable taste in greens? If not, what am
> I doing wrong to produce this kind of a taste?


There are strong opinions on this. I belong to the faction that believes
that the "spinach" taste (sometimes called "grassy") comes from steeping
at too high a temperature. Try steeping the same tea at a lower
temperature and see if the taste is different.

> 3. Do you prefer to heat the water to the desired temperature or to
> boil it and let it cool to that temperature? If you have a preference,
> why?


I heat and then cool (a method I have seen on some Japanese tea
websites). One might argue that there will be more dissolved air (a good
thing) in water that is heated to the target temperature and no more, but
if there is a difference it might not be noticable to (any? some? most?)
palates.

>4. Do you like your tea strong or weak? I seem to prefer weak, I
> usually disagree with amounts of tea recommended. This has also
> changed once I started to get some better quality leaves - they don't
> brew the same way that grocery store loose leaf tea brews. With those
> I used to brew only about 1/4 of recommended amount but with whole
> leaves I tend to brew about 1/2 amt recommended. I've also heard of
> people using a scale to weight the leaves so they get an exact amount.
> Where does one find such a scale? (It'd have to be able to weigh
> grams accurately, right?)


Strength of tea is a matter of personal taste. The tea in tea bags is
like dust. Very fine tea like that is called fannings. It gives up its
flavor very quickly. As you observe, if you brew similar weights of
fannings and whole-leaf tea for the same amount of time in the same
amount of water, the tea made with fannings will be much stronger,
because more surface area is exposed to the hot water. Rather than using
more or less tea, you might want to try varying the amount of time that
you brew the tea. Overbrewing tea can make it bitter. You may find that
you prefer a larger amount of tea brewed a shorter period of time
compared with a lesser amount of the same tea brewed for a longer period.

There has been much controversy about scales. There are two questions,
really. One is how accurate you have to be. The other is whether it is
easy to judge the right amount of tea using a spoon. As for the first
question, while some people may claim to be able to tell the difference
that a 1/10 of a gram of tea can make, that amount of accuracy may be
(probably is) overkill. Typically, brewing recommendations by weight are
about 2.25 or 2.5 grams per 6 ounces of water. (Talk about mixed
measurements!) If you are measuring normal whole-leaf tea that is not
particularly fluffy, the weight of a teaspoon's worth of tea is in or
close to that range. OTOH, CTC tea and other teas that are broken leaves
(or smaller) weight more per teaspoon. For me, scales are most useful
for fluffy teas. I'm completely at a loss when judging the right amount
of fluffy tea by eye. Using a scale I know I am in the zone and I can
get repeatable results, even if the tea has been fluffed up even more or
compacted. The scale that I use (a Tanita 1479 if memory serves) was
purchased online. It is small, easy to use, and reasonably priced.


>
> Thanks for all your help,
>
> ~sara
>
>
>


Good luck, and happy tea explorations!

Debbie

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  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
John
 
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Default water temperature and green tea

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:39:39 -0600, Sara Hawk wrote:

> Hi all,
> I don't want to open yet another debate on tea. Please, if you feel the
> need to flame, select another topic. I just need answers to a couple of
> questions.
>
> As a long time black tea / tisane drinker, tea to me meant boiling some
> water, pouring it over tea leaves / herbs and decanting after some time.
> Only within the last 5 years have I been introduced to other kinds of
> tea and other methods of preparation. And even though I've done it for
> some time now, I don't feel that I've mastered those techniques either.
> I still use a thermometer and I often start over. I have several
> questions about this:
>
> 1. What happens to tea if the water isn't hot enough? I understand that
> if the water is too hot, it 'burns off' some of the compounds so they
> evaporate quickly and the taste changes. So, by this logic, wouldn't a
> longer brew time in cooler water result in similar brew? I tried this
> with some greens that I have, and it was about the same. I've really
> not got any expensive greens yet (waiting for my order) so I can't tell
> whether it's like that with them too. What is your view?
>
> 2. Several of the greens that I've tried have a sort of a spinach taste to
> them. Is this a desirable taste in greens? If not, what am I doing wrong to
> produce this kind of a taste?
>
> 3. Do you prefer to heat the water to the desired temperature or to boil it
> and let it cool to that temperature? If you have a preference, why?


I've experimented with both methods and have found that I prefer to heat
to the desired temperature and then steep. To my palate, the taste is
slightly better than with the other method. I watch the bubbles to guage
temperature and don't use a thermometer.

> 4. Do you like your tea strong or weak? I seem to prefer weak, I usually
> disagree with amounts of tea recommended. This has also changed once I
> started to get some better quality leaves - they don't brew the same way
> that grocery store loose leaf tea brews. With those I used to brew only
> about 1/4 of recommended amount but with whole leaves I tend to brew about
> 1/2 amt recommended. I've also heard of people using a scale to weight the
> leaves so they get an exact amount. Where does one find such a scale?
> (It'd have to be able to weigh grams accurately, right?)


Strength is a purely subjective matter. What one person finds strong,
another may find weak etc. etc. On the matter of scales, I'd never tell
anyone not to use one but for me, the variation between one brew of a
particular tea and another can be interesting. 'Mistakes' can be a
source of knowledge.

> Thanks for all your help,
>
> ~sara


J


  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Plant
 
Posts: n/a
Default water temperature and green tea

Sara HawkLfswb.295275$Fm2.311652@attbi_s0411/24/03


Sara,

snip

> 1. What happens to tea if the water isn't hot enough? I understand that if
> the water is too hot, it 'burns off' some of the compounds so they evaporate
> quickly and the taste changes. So, by this logic, wouldn't a longer brew
> time in cooler water result in similar brew? I tried this with some greens
> that I have, and it was about the same. I've really not got any expensive
> greens yet (waiting for my order) so I can't tell whether it's like that
> with them too. What is your view?


It's been my experience that erring on the side of caution -- too cool
rather than too hot -- yields a more pleasant cup of green tea. Generally,
I've found that extremely fresh and young buds/leaves require a cooler
temperature. Less fresh or larger leaves, higher. For greens, for me, lower
means 135-145. Higher means 160-175; occasionally higher. And points in
between. It calls for experimentation, which is what you'll want to do.

> 2. Several of the greens that I've tried have a sort of a spinach taste to
> them. Is this a desirable taste in greens? If not, what am I doing wrong
> to produce this kind of a taste?


You're doing nothing wrong, I'll bet. Some greens just taste that way. If
they *all* taste like spinach, I dunno. Long jing and Lin yun decided taste
most unspinach-like. Among others.

> 3. Do you prefer to heat the water to the desired temperature or to boil it
> and let it cool to that temperature? If you have a preference, why?


I bring the water up to just over the desired temperature and then pour. I
do not bring the water to a boil and let it cool. Why? Habit, and the
mythological oxygen depletion theory, I guess.

> 4. Do you like your tea strong or weak?


I can live with "too weak" quite nicely. I don't like the taste when green
tea becomes "too strong."

>I seem to prefer weak, I usually
> disagree with amounts of tea recommended. This has also changed once I
> started to get some better quality leaves - they don't brew the same way
> that grocery store loose leaf tea brews. With those I used to brew only
> about 1/4 of recommended amount but with whole leaves I tend to brew about
> 1/2 amt recommended. I've also heard of people using a scale to weight the
> leaves so they get an exact amount. Where does one find such a scale?
> (It'd have to be able to weigh grams accurately, right?)


Quite right. I use a three beam gram scale accurate to the tenth of a gram.
I also use a gram balance scale. Generally, I use half the number of grams
of dry tea as ounces of water: 5 grams tea to 10 ounces water, for example.
This usually works, and I adjust steep times around it. Remember you can
expect multiple steeps from the same leaves. Therefore, use enough leaf, and
cut the steep time down. Stinting on leaf amount compromises quality, I've
found. David Hoffman of Silk Road Tea charges somewhere around $50 USC for a
Chinese balance scale that works just fine.
>

I happily and unabashedly use a thermometer to guide me whenever I feel like
I want its guidance, which is usually when I'm brewing a delicate green.

Best,
Michael

  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Babba Rom Dos
 
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Default water temperature and green tea

> I bring the water up to just over the desired temperature and then
> pour. I do not bring the water to a boil and let it cool. Why? Habit,
> and the mythological oxygen depletion theory, I guess.


I'm sure this has been covered before, but what do you use to heat the
water? I just have an old kettle on an electric stove so I can't know it's
doing anything but boiling then have to wait for the temp to come back
down. Please tell me a better way.
  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Lewis Perin
 
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Default water temperature and green tea

Babba Rom Dos > writes:

> > I bring the water up to just over the desired temperature and then
> > pour. I do not bring the water to a boil and let it cool. Why? Habit,
> > and the mythological oxygen depletion theory, I guess.

>
> I'm sure this has been covered before, but what do you use to heat the
> water? I just have an old kettle on an electric stove so I can't know it's
> doing anything but boiling then have to wait for the temp to come back
> down. Please tell me a better way.


You could use the same old kettle and bring down the water temperature
by adding room-temperature water. Or you could pour the hot water
back and forth between two vessels until it cools to the temperature
you want.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
fLameDogg
 
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Default water temperature and green tea

Lewis Perin > wrote in
news
> Babba Rom Dos > writes:
>
>> > I bring the water up to just over the desired temperature and then
>> > pour. I do not bring the water to a boil and let it cool. Why?
>> > Habit, and the mythological oxygen depletion theory, I guess.

>>
>> I'm sure this has been covered before, but what do you use to heat
>> the water? I just have an old kettle on an electric stove so I can't
>> know it's doing anything but boiling then have to wait for the temp
>> to come back down. Please tell me a better way.

>
> You could use the same old kettle and bring down the water temperature
> by adding room-temperature water. Or you could pour the hot water
> back and forth between two vessels until it cools to the temperature
> you want.


Yes, but that doesn't address the "mythological oxygen depletion theory";
the object here seems to be avoidance of exceeding the target temperature
by more than a few degrees.

I have no opinion on this. I'm still figuring out how to make a decent cup
of green tea, period.

--
fD
  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Plant
 
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Default water temperature and green tea

Babba Rom /25/03


>> I bring the water up to just over the desired temperature and then
>> pour. I do not bring the water to a boil and let it cool. Why? Habit,
>> and the mythological oxygen depletion theory, I guess.

>
> I'm sure this has been covered before, but what do you use to heat the
> water? I just have an old kettle on an electric stove so I can't know it's
> doing anything but boiling then have to wait for the temp to come back
> down. Please tell me a better way.


I stick a metal stick-thermometer into the kettle spout. Conversely -- and
more and more lately -- I listen for the changing tone of the heating water.
If you always use the same kettle, and always fill it to the same point, and
always use the same amount of heat, you will actually hear changing tones.
Or maybe this is just idiosyncratic to my kettle. But, anyway, that's my
answer. (The thermometer has a wheel face at the top.)

BTW, regarding us having covered the topic before worry not: Redundant is
our middle name.

Michael



  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Robert Dunbar
 
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Default water temperature and green tea

The folks at Tea-n-Crumpets suggested an easy way to get water temperature
for steeping green tea just right: use one part water at room temperature
and three parts boiling water.

This works for me and makes a good cup of green tea.
  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Joseph Kubera
 
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Default water temperature and green tea

One thing I do is pour boiling water from kettle into a pyrex cup. This cools
it almost immediately to 180F. Then when poured into the teapot it's about
170F, which is fine for many green teas. This is for 10 oz. of water in a 10
oz. pot. Your own teaware may vary!

Of course, some greens perform better when cooler and some hotter. I get out
the thermometer when it seems necessary, or when I'm experimenting with a new
tea.

There are many ways to control temp, as you've read in previous posts.

Cheers,
Joe.


  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dog Ma 1
 
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Default water temperature and green tea

I may regret this, but flame-proof suit is well-zipped...

On the temperature front, I'd say that whatever works for you is right. It
IS true that for the great majority of serious sippers, black teas taste
best if brewed at the highest possible temperature. That usually means fully
boiling water and a hot pot, even at sea level - never had really good black
tea at altitude, where boiling temp is reduced. I've even done the
experiment of maintaining a boil in the microwave, and gotten better tea.
Issue here is not to distill away delicate aromatics. (As a side-point,
little aroma will be lost in normal brewing no matter how hot the water -
has to do with partial vapor pressures of soluble volatiles in a very dilute
solution.)

Green teas tend to get very bitter if overwarmed. Much of the unpleasant
bitter stuff is rapidly soluble; hence the pre-rinse favored in some
techniques. Note that brewing time and temperature are not interchangeable:
a fast brew at boiling does not produce the same result as a longer steep at
80C. In Asia, unlike the US, many people seem to make a practice of multiple
extractions from the same green leaves. Even with a fast pre-rinse in hot
water, I find the second and third steeps to make a much nicer tea than the
first; the fourth is pleasant but weak.

Tea brewing chemistry is not extremely complicated, but there's a lot of
mythology. The "oxygen" thing is simply not true - not much there under any
circumstances, and nil effect in the brew. What is true is that lime-rich
water (which, IMO, makes the best tea) loses CO2 on boiling. This reduces
the solubility of divalent (calcium and magnesium) salts, so they crust up
in the kettle and leave less alkaline water - which then does a worse job of
extracting slightly acidic polyphenols and other good things. (Alkaloids
like theophylline are so soluble that none of this much matters, only full
hydration of the leaf.) So a fresh boil of freshly drawn water is important
IF you're fortunate to have slightly hard water. Where it's very pure, as in
much of the northern UK, it makes little or no difference.

There's also some interesting stuff that happens later. For example, some of
the tannins bind (not actually reacting) with the alkaloids, settling out in
a fine floc and shifting flavor. This is one key reason why length of both
steeping and standing matter: alkaloids are extracted very rapidly, tannins
more gradually; and that flocculation takes a while too. The protein in even
a minute amount of milk - not nearly enough to taste milky - has a similar
effect.

One could go on. There's some very good research on tea available on the
web, differing markedly from common mythology. I have a Ph.D. in organic
chemistry, have read a number of scholarly treatises on tea technology and
even worked a bit in the field - and I'd still say: forget all the stories,
start with what old-timers recommend, vary everything and make careful
observations. Then do the easiest (or most fun) thing that works for you.

-DM


  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Plant
 
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Default water temperature and green tea

Dog Ma /28/03
reply w/o spam

> I may regret this, but flame-proof suit is well-zipped...
>
> On the temperature front, I'd say that whatever works for you is right. It
> IS true that for the great majority of serious sippers, black teas taste
> best if brewed at the highest possible temperature. That usually means fully
> boiling water and a hot pot, even at sea level - never had really good black
> tea at altitude, where boiling temp is reduced. I've even done the
> experiment of maintaining a boil in the microwave, and gotten better tea.
> Issue here is not to distill away delicate aromatics. (As a side-point,
> little aroma will be lost in normal brewing no matter how hot the water -
> has to do with partial vapor pressures of soluble volatiles in a very dilute
> solution.)
>
> Green teas tend to get very bitter if overwarmed. Much of the unpleasant
> bitter stuff is rapidly soluble; hence the pre-rinse favored in some
> techniques. Note that brewing time and temperature are not interchangeable:
> a fast brew at boiling does not produce the same result as a longer steep at
> 80C. In Asia, unlike the US, many people seem to make a practice of multiple
> extractions from the same green leaves. Even with a fast pre-rinse in hot
> water, I find the second and third steeps to make a much nicer tea than the
> first; the fourth is pleasant but weak.
>
> Tea brewing chemistry is not extremely complicated, but there's a lot of
> mythology. The "oxygen" thing is simply not true - not much there under any
> circumstances, and nil effect in the brew. What is true is that lime-rich
> water (which, IMO, makes the best tea) loses CO2 on boiling. This reduces
> the solubility of divalent (calcium and magnesium) salts, so they crust up
> in the kettle and leave less alkaline water - which then does a worse job of
> extracting slightly acidic polyphenols and other good things. (Alkaloids
> like theophylline are so soluble that none of this much matters, only full
> hydration of the leaf.) So a fresh boil of freshly drawn water is important
> IF you're fortunate to have slightly hard water. Where it's very pure, as in
> much of the northern UK, it makes little or no difference.
>
> There's also some interesting stuff that happens later. For example, some of
> the tannins bind (not actually reacting) with the alkaloids, settling out in
> a fine floc and shifting flavor. This is one key reason why length of both
> steeping and standing matter: alkaloids are extracted very rapidly, tannins
> more gradually; and that flocculation takes a while too. The protein in even
> a minute amount of milk - not nearly enough to taste milky - has a similar
> effect.
>
> One could go on. There's some very good research on tea available on the
> web, differing markedly from common mythology. I have a Ph.D. in organic
> chemistry, have read a number of scholarly treatises on tea technology and
> even worked a bit in the field - and I'd still say: forget all the stories,
> start with what old-timers recommend, vary everything and make careful
> observations. Then do the easiest (or most fun) thing that works for you.
>
> -DM
>
>



No need for the flame-proof suit, Dog. Your post is interesting, and your
points are well taken, especially those in your last paragraph. Ultimately,
tea must be more art than science.

Michael

  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Rick Chappell
 
Posts: n/a
Default water temperature and green tea

Robert Dunbar > wrote:
> The folks at Tea-n-Crumpets suggested an easy way to get water temperature
> for steeping green tea just right: use one part water at room temperature
> and three parts boiling water.
> This works for me and makes a good cup of green tea.


Okay, call in the mathematicians. First, assuming that you let the water
run a bit to get some water fresh from the pipe (or that you just did let
it run to fill up the kettle which is now boiling), the water might be a bit
cooler than room temperature. At least in Wisconsin, unless the room is a
cistern.

If tap water is 50 degrees, which is realistic where I sit watching the snow
out of my window, then 3:1 gives you about 170 degree water. 4:1 gives you
180. Does the difference matter?

Attempting to avoid work (by looking out the window at snow and/or posting),

Rick.


  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
J Boehm
 
Posts: n/a
Default water temperature and green tea

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 15:06:01 +0000, Dog Ma 1 wrote:

> I may regret this, but flame-proof suit is well-zipped...
>
> On the temperature front, I'd say that whatever works for you is right. It
> IS true that for the great majority of serious sippers, black teas taste
> best if brewed at the highest possible temperature. That usually means fully
> boiling water and a hot pot, even at sea level - never had really good black
> tea at altitude, where boiling temp is reduced. I've even done the
> experiment of maintaining a boil in the microwave, and gotten better tea.
> Issue here is not to distill away delicate aromatics. (As a side-point,
> little aroma will be lost in normal brewing no matter how hot the water -
> has to do with partial vapor pressures of soluble volatiles in a very dilute
> solution.)
>
> Green teas tend to get very bitter if overwarmed. Much of the unpleasant
> bitter stuff is rapidly soluble; hence the pre-rinse favored in some
> techniques. Note that brewing time and temperature are not interchangeable:
> a fast brew at boiling does not produce the same result as a longer steep at
> 80C. In Asia, unlike the US, many people seem to make a practice of multiple
> extractions from the same green leaves. Even with a fast pre-rinse in hot
> water, I find the second and third steeps to make a much nicer tea than the
> first; the fourth is pleasant but weak.
>
> Tea brewing chemistry is not extremely complicated, but there's a lot of
> mythology. The "oxygen" thing is simply not true - not much there under any
> circumstances, and nil effect in the brew. What is true is that lime-rich
> water (which, IMO, makes the best tea) loses CO2 on boiling. This reduces
> the solubility of divalent (calcium and magnesium) salts, so they crust up
> in the kettle and leave less alkaline water - which then does a worse job of
> extracting slightly acidic polyphenols and other good things. (Alkaloids
> like theophylline are so soluble that none of this much matters, only full
> hydration of the leaf.) So a fresh boil of freshly drawn water is important
> IF you're fortunate to have slightly hard water. Where it's very pure, as in
> much of the northern UK, it makes little or no difference.
>
> There's also some interesting stuff that happens later. For example, some of
> the tannins bind (not actually reacting) with the alkaloids, settling out in
> a fine floc and shifting flavor. This is one key reason why length of both
> steeping and standing matter: alkaloids are extracted very rapidly, tannins
> more gradually; and that flocculation takes a while too. The protein in even
> a minute amount of milk - not nearly enough to taste milky - has a similar
> effect.
>
> One could go on. There's some very good research on tea available on the
> web, differing markedly from common mythology. I have a Ph.D. in organic
> chemistry, have read a number of scholarly treatises on tea technology and
> even worked a bit in the field - and I'd still say: forget all the stories,
> start with what old-timers recommend, vary everything and make careful
> observations. Then do the easiest (or most fun) thing that works for you.
>
> -DM


Good article, one of the rare ones I save. I made the same observations
living in pure-water Manchester and in lime-water Henley. Now I am in
pure-water Cologne and I have to find other teas that suit the water.
Oolong is great, black ones have to be carefully chosen. Green one is
simply controlled by temperature.

JB

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