Guys

I have been looking into this wonderful and impernetrable subject of
tea chemistry and got struck in the terminology. I wonder if you could
help.

Apparently there are 6 tea tastes:

astringent
bitter
fresh
sweet
sour
salty

Now, I have chosen the word fresh to correspond to the Chinese word
Xian, or 鲜。It is what theanine tastes like. Can anyone think of a
better word? If I say fresh tasting, would anyone know what it means?



Julian
http://www.amazing-green-tea.com

"If I say fresh tasting, would anyone know what it means?"

nope,
but if it says stale tasting, i surely would avoid it.

On May 6, 9:53Â*pm, juliantai > wrote:
> Guys
>
> I have been looking into this wonderful and impernetrable subject of
> tea chemistry and got struck in the terminology. I wonder if you could
> help.
>
> Apparently there are 6 tea tastes:
>
> astringent
> bitter
> fresh
> sweet
> sour
> salty
>
> Now, I have chosen the word fresh to correspond to the Chinese word
> Xian, or 鲜。It is what theanine tastes like. Can anyone think of a
> better word? If I say fresh tasting, would anyone know what it means?
>
>
>
> Julianhttp://www.amazing-green-tea.com

You mean like 新鲜 (xin xian)? I'm not exactly sure at what you are
getting at when you describe a tea as "fresh". You mean like when the
first spring teas are released it has the xian flavor?

That's not one of the flavors of tea that I've heard referred to. If
anything they usually call it 香(xiang).

On May 7, 10:23 pm, Mydnight > wrote:
> On May 6, 9:53 pm, juliantai > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Guys
>
> > I have been looking into this wonderful and impernetrable subject of
> > tea chemistry and got struck in the terminology. I wonder if you could
> > help.
>
> > Apparently there are 6 tea tastes:
>
> > astringent
> > bitter
> > fresh
> > sweet
> > sour
> > salty
>
> > Now, I have chosen the word fresh to correspond to the Chinese word
> > Xian, or 鲜。It is what theanine tastes like. Can anyone think of a
> > better word? If I say fresh tasting, would anyone know what it means?
>
> >
>
> > Julianhttp://www.amazing-green-tea.com
>
> You mean like 新鲜 (xin xian)? I'm not exactly sure at what you are
> getting at when you describe a tea as "fresh". You mean like when the
> first spring teas are released it has the xian flavor?
>
> That's not one of the flavors of tea that I've heard referred to. If
> anything they usually call it 香(xiang).

é®® is often used in conjunction with the word æ´», which together, when
describing tea, means that the tea is "lively". é®® can also be used in
conjunction with 甜, meaning "lively and sweet". These are usually
associated with green tea, although nowadays you also hear it being
used for dry stored puerh. It's rare to hear somebody say é®® on its
own to describe a tea though, because é®® is really a taste on its own
-- it's what MSG in food will make the food taste like. It's what a
good chicken stock tastes like. é®® as an adjective for tea is, IMO,
more a description of its feeling than its taste. A cooked puerh is
never going to be 鮮活. The same is true for a roasted tieguanyin. A
pre-ming Longjing or a well stored 10 year old puerh though can
definitely be that. I think to translate into English, "light and
lively" might be better, if slightly cumbersome.

MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

L-theanine is an amino acid whose taste is indiscernible in tea. It is
the tea that carries flavours, not L-theanine.
Shen
juliantai wrote:
> Guys
>
> I have been looking into this wonderful and impernetrable subject of
> tea chemistry and got struck in the terminology. I wonder if you could
> help.
>
> Apparently there are 6 tea tastes:
>
> astringent
> bitter
> fresh
> sweet
> sour
> salty
>
> Now, I have chosen the word fresh to correspond to the Chinese word
> Xian, or 鲜。It is what theanine tastes like. Can anyone think of a
> better word? If I say fresh tasting, would anyone know what it means?
>
>
>
> Julian
> http://www.amazing-green-tea.com

On May 8, 1:43Â*am, MarshalN > wrote:
> On May 7, 10:23 pm, Mydnight > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 6, 9:53 pm, juliantai > wrote:
>
> > > Guys
>
> > > I have been looking into this wonderful and impernetrable subject of
> > > tea chemistry and got struck in the terminology. I wonder if you could
> > > help.
>
> > > Apparently there are 6 tea tastes:
>
> > > astringent
> > > bitter
> > > fresh
> > > sweet
> > > sour
> > > salty
>
> > > Now, I have chosen the word fresh to correspond to the Chinese word
> > > Xian, or 鲜。It is what theanine tastes like. Can anyone think of a
> > > better word? If I say fresh tasting, would anyone know what it means?
>
> > >
>
> > > Julianhttp://www.amazing-green-tea.com
>
> > You mean like 新鲜 (xin xian)? Â*I'm not exactly sure at what you are
> > getting at when you describe a tea as "fresh". Â*You mean like when the
> > first spring teas are released it has the xian flavor?
>
> > That's not one of the flavors of tea that I've heard referred to. Â*If
> > anything they usually call it 香(xiang).
>
> é®® is often used in conjunction with the word æ´», which together, when
> describing tea, means that the tea is "lively". Â*é®® can also be used in
> conjunction with 甜, meaning "lively and sweet". Â*These are usually
> associated with green tea, although nowadays you also hear it being
> used for dry stored puerh. Â*It's rare to hear somebody say é®® on its
> own to describe a tea though, because é®® is really a taste on its own
> -- it's what MSG in food will make the food taste like. Â*It's what a
> good chicken stock tastes like. Â*é®® as an adjective for tea is, IMO,
> more a description of its feeling than its taste. Â*A cooked puerh is
> never going to be 鮮活. Â*The same is true for a roasted tieguanyin. Â*A
> pre-ming Longjing or a well stored 10 year old puerh though can
> definitely be that. Â*I think to translate into English, "light and
> lively" might be better, if slightly cumbersome.

The only time I have ever heard xian is in reference with xin xian
which just means fresh. Yes, it's usually with green tea that has
just been released or picked or something. Actually describing any
flavor or part of the tea, I have not heard before. Kinda strange.

On May 6, 2:53 pm, juliantai > wrote:
<é®® as an adjective for tea is, IMO,
<more a description of its feeling than its taste. A cooked puerh is
<never going to be 鮮活. The same is true for a roasted tieguanyin. A
<pre-ming Longjing or a well stored 10 year old puerh though can
<definitely be that. I think to translate into English, "light and
<lively" might be better, if slightly cumbersome.

Marshall, I think you hit the nail on its head there.

L-theanine is an N-methylated derivative of glutamine. Those familiar
with Chinese and Japanese foods might be aware of the flavor enhancer
monosodium glutamate, commonly known as MSG. Well, L-theanine has a
similar effect on taste buds.

Personally, I experience it as a tingling sensation, as if something
moves on the tongue, but nobody else seems to feel the same thing, so
I might well be wrong.

For green tea and white tea, xian is an important criteria for
quality. But it looks like there really is no equivalent words in
English (Marshall suggested light and lively!), unless somebody more
experienced could think of one!

Hey, thanks everyone for the contribution!

Julian
http://www.amazing-green-tea.com

ok, so are you tasting pure L-theanine ?
any tea has more than 1 component...


> L-theanine is an N-methylated derivative of glutamine. Those familiar
> with Chinese and Japanese foods might be aware of the flavor enhancer
> monosodium glutamate, commonly known as MSG. Well, L-theanine has a
> similar effect on taste buds.
>
> Personally, I experience it as a tingling sensation, as if something
> moves on the tongue, but nobody else seems to feel the same thing, so
> I might well be wrong.

On May 8, 11:45 am, Mydnight > wrote:
> On May 8, 1:43 am, MarshalN > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 7, 10:23 pm, Mydnight > wrote:
>
> > > On May 6, 9:53 pm, juliantai > wrote:
>
> > > > Guys
>
> > > > I have been looking into this wonderful and impernetrable subject of
> > > > tea chemistry and got struck in the terminology. I wonder if you could
> > > > help.
>
> > > > Apparently there are 6 tea tastes:
>
> > > > astringent
> > > > bitter
> > > > fresh
> > > > sweet
> > > > sour
> > > > salty
>
> > > > Now, I have chosen the word fresh to correspond to the Chinese word
> > > > Xian, or 鲜。It is what theanine tastes like. Can anyone think of a
> > > > better word? If I say fresh tasting, would anyone know what it means?
>
> > > >
>
> > > > Julianhttp://www.amazing-green-tea.com
>
> > > You mean like 新鲜 (xin xian)? I'm not exactly sure at what you are
> > > getting at when you describe a tea as "fresh". You mean like when the
> > > first spring teas are released it has the xian flavor?
>
> > > That's not one of the flavors of tea that I've heard referred to. If
> > > anything they usually call it 香(xiang).
>
> > é®® is often used in conjunction with the word æ´», which together, when
> > describing tea, means that the tea is "lively". é®® can also be used in
> > conjunction with 甜, meaning "lively and sweet". These are usually
> > associated with green tea, although nowadays you also hear it being
> > used for dry stored puerh. It's rare to hear somebody say é®® on its
> > own to describe a tea though, because é®® is really a taste on its own
> > -- it's what MSG in food will make the food taste like. It's what a
> > good chicken stock tastes like. é®® as an adjective for tea is, IMO,
> > more a description of its feeling than its taste. A cooked puerh is
> > never going to be 鮮活. The same is true for a roasted tieguanyin. A
> > pre-ming Longjing or a well stored 10 year old puerh though can
> > definitely be that. I think to translate into English, "light and
> > lively" might be better, if slightly cumbersome.
>
> The only time I have ever heard xian is in reference with xin xian
> which just means fresh. Yes, it's usually with green tea that has
> just been released or picked or something. Actually describing any
> flavor or part of the tea, I have not heard before. Kinda strange.

Xinxian is something you would use to describe the condition of the
tea, but unlikely for a description of the taste of the liquid.
Somebody can say the longjing is very xinxian because it is freshly
picked, with accompanying implication that the tea (liquid) itself is
fresh and lively. Of course, they are related in the sense that an
old, stale longjing is unlikely going to be xianhuo, but an aged,
properly dry stored sheng puerh can indeed be xianhuo (lively) without
being xinxian (fresh as in fresh off the plant). So, while one term
contains, at least partially, the meaning of another, it doesn't work
in both directions.

MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

> On May 6, 2:53 pm, juliantai > wrote:
>
> L-theanine is an N-methylated derivative of glutamine. Those familiar
> with Chinese and Japanese foods might be aware of the flavor enhancer
> monosodium glutamate, commonly known as MSG. Well, L-theanine has a
> similar effect on taste buds.
>

The generally recognised English term for this taste ascribed to L-
theanine in Japanese green tea is "brothy", though before we
discovered what the Japanese called it we used "maritime" to describe
its distinct savoriness. Raw tuna or sushi quality is close to it.
This taste in general is known as "umami" and recently has been added
to the four classic gustatory (taste) sensations (sweet, salt, acid &
bitter), along with metallic. Astringent is not considered a taste
(except by tea tasters) as it is considered strictly to be a tactile
stimulus - of loss in slickness of the buccal mucosa. Nor yet is
"fresh" a taste, although (and particularly to a tea enthusiast) it is
an essential component and in teaman's parlance could be termed
"alive" or (for black teas at least) "point".

Nigel at Teacraft

> The generally recognised English term for this taste ascribed to L-
> theanine in Japanese green tea is "brothy", though before we
> discovered what the Japanese called it we used "maritime" to describe
> its distinct savoriness. Raw tuna or sushi quality is close to it.
> This taste in general is known as "umami" and recently has been added
> to the four classic gustatory (taste) sensations (sweet, salt, acid &
> bitter), along with metallic. Astringent is not considered a taste
> (except by tea tasters) as it is considered strictly to be a tactile
> stimulus - of loss in slickness of the buccal mucosa. Nor yet is
> "fresh" a taste, although (and particularly to a tea enthusiast) it is
> an essential component and in teaman's parlance could be termed
> "alive" or (for black teas at least) "point".

Thanks, Nigel et all. That is REALLY useful I quite like fresh,
alive, savory, reminiscent of MSG (that is what the Chinese call it,
because they take so much MSG).

Another question is this mystery of tea. For green tea, caffeine
tastes bitter, while catechins taste astringent. But together, they
create something else -neither bitter nor astringent (good green tea
shouldn't taste like that). It seems to be all lost in my taste buds?
Have you come across anything that describes it? It might really be
well a complex experience that defies words ...

juliantai wrote:
> I have been looking into this wonderful and impernetrable subject of
> tea chemistry and got struck in the terminology. I wonder if you
> could help. Apparently there are 6 tea tastes:

and

> ... For green tea, caffeine tastes bitter, while catechins taste
> astringent. But together, they create something else -neither bitter
> nor astringent ... It might really be well a complex experience that
> defies words ...

Speaking as a chemist who's worked occasionally in food sciences, I'd
make a clear distinction between molecules and experiences. Even the
simplest cases (salt tastes salty) can fall apart under some
physiological conditions. As with the other senses, personal state,
cultural training and expectations play a major role. (How else could
one explain how Americans like American food?)

Professional tasters in tea, wine and other foods and drinks, perfume
designers, visual artists, musicians and choreographers (among many
others) evolve ad-hoc languages to communicate their common experience.
These typically do not convey much to outsiders, but are testably
precise between experts. In few if any cases is the underlying
physical/chemical/optical/? state of the observed system sufficient to
predict accurately each user's response, given current levels of
understanding of cognitive psychology.

IMO, for most of us,learning a little food science is useful (beyond
just mind games) insofar as it guides personally effective choices in
buying, brewing, sharing and describing.

-DM

DogMa wrote:
> Speaking as a chemist who's worked occasionally in food sciences, I'd
> make a clear distinction between molecules and experiences. Even the
> simplest cases (salt tastes salty) can fall apart under some
> physiological conditions. As with the other senses, personal state,
> cultural training and expectations play a major role. (How else could
> one explain how Americans like American food?)
....

What do you think of "Miracle Fruit", said to make sour, bitter foods taste
sweet and delicious?

http://www.jacobgrier.com/blog/archives/632.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_fruit

Shen > writes:

> L-theanine is an amino acid whose taste is indiscernible in tea. It is
> the tea that carries flavours, not L-theanine.

It depends on what you mean by taste. L-theanine has a tremendous
effect on the experience of holding the tea liquor in your mouth. Try
this experiment: Brew a harsh CTC tea. Take a sip and mark well what
it feels like in your mouth and what it tastes like. Then add a bit
of L-theanine powder to the liquor. Take another sip. It's
inconceivable that you won't notice a difference.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

juliantai > writes:

> > The generally recognised English term for this taste ascribed to L-
> > theanine in Japanese green tea is "brothy", though before we
> > discovered what the Japanese called it we used "maritime" to describe
> > its distinct savoriness. Raw tuna or sushi quality is close to it.
> > This taste in general is known as "umami" and recently has been added
> > to the four classic gustatory (taste) sensations (sweet, salt, acid &
> > bitter), along with metallic. Astringent is not considered a taste
> > (except by tea tasters) as it is considered strictly to be a tactile
> > stimulus - of loss in slickness of the buccal mucosa. Nor yet is
> > "fresh" a taste, although (and particularly to a tea enthusiast) it is
> > an essential component and in teaman's parlance could be termed
> > "alive" or (for black teas at least) "point".
>
> Thanks, Nigel et all. That is REALLY useful I quite like fresh,
> alive, savory, reminiscent of MSG (that is what the Chinese call it,
> because they take so much MSG).
>
> Another question is this mystery of tea. For green tea, caffeine
> tastes bitter, while catechins taste astringent. But together, they
> create something else -neither bitter nor astringent (good green tea
> shouldn't taste like that). It seems to be all lost in my taste buds?
> Have you come across anything that describes it? It might really be
> well a complex experience that defies words ...

I think L-theanine actually counteracts astringency in tea.

--

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html