Ack. I am trying to make some loaves in breadpans for a change, and its is
driving me crazy. I decided to try the loafpan route as a way of coming up
with a fairly simple recipe for my sister to follow to make bread using my
starter, but it has never worked well for me. I got into the habit of
freeform baking, really it has been the only way I have baked, and now I am
trying my same bread in loafpans with crazy results. I just put 2 loafpans,
with risen dough peeking over the top, into a hot oven (425) on preheated
tiles as I would for my non pan bread. I don't let my freeform bread rise
this much, I get alot of my rise in the oven, I bake my boules and such on
tiles with a cakepan or cookiesheet for insulation against burning bottoms
with excellent results, so I figured this would work ok too. I immediately
started getting a few large bubbles on the surface, growing to the size of
golfballs. I hate golf, but that's another story. I pulled out one loaf and
slashed the bubbles which of course was disastrous, so I left the other
alone.

I don't see this bubble problem in any of the posts, anybody have a clue?

hutchndi

>I don't see this bubble problem in any of the posts, anybody have a
clue?

People here usually slash their dough before baking.....therefore you
need to do the same.
You need to slash ( specially lean doughs) whether they are baked in
bread pans or in free form in order to minimize the formation of such
large bubbles. This due to uneven expansion and accumulation of stress
in the various points of the dough that leads to that fault. Consider
the fact that most artisanal type of bread had lean recipes and there
is not enough lipid or fat to allow the flexibility of the semi rigid
foam ( proofed dough) to expand evenly in all directions
Just remember if your dough has uneven pore size distribution ,the gas
pressure inside the small bubbles is much higher if compared to a
larger bubbles. These forces the smaller bubbles to merge with the
larger bubble forming a much bigger size one..
This is a variation of the phenomenon known in physical chemistry as
Ostwald ripening.It can also be described as bubble coalescence. or
bubble diffusion
The rate at which diffusion proceeds is clearly proportional to the
pressure difference and the permeability of the surrounding barrier(
the gluten starch membrane between the two bubble of differing
diameters.
Hence there is the likelihood that the accumulated internal pressure
due to rapid expansion in the dough during baking will promote the
formation of such unsightly huge gas cells
Now if you slash the loaves this pent up pressure is released making
the bread expand evenly and minimize the merging of disparately sized
bubbles.

Roy

"Roy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> >I don't see this bubble problem in any of the posts, anybody have a
> clue?
>
> People here usually slash their dough before baking.....therefore you
> need to do the same.
> You need to slash ( specially lean doughs) whether they are baked in
> bread pans or in free form in order to minimize the formation of such
> large bubbles. This due to uneven expansion and accumulation of stress
> in the various points of the dough that leads to that fault. Consider
> the fact that most artisanal type of bread had lean recipes and there
> is not enough lipid or fat to allow the flexibility of the semi rigid
> foam ( proofed dough) to expand evenly in all directions
> Just remember if your dough has uneven pore size distribution ,the gas
> pressure inside the small bubbles is much higher if compared to a
> larger bubbles. These forces the smaller bubbles to merge with the
> larger bubble forming a much bigger size one..
> This is a variation of the phenomenon known in physical chemistry as
> Ostwald ripening.It can also be described as bubble coalescence. or
> bubble diffusion
> The rate at which diffusion proceeds is clearly proportional to the
> pressure difference and the permeability of the surrounding barrier(
> the gluten starch membrane between the two bubble of differing
> diameters.
> Hence there is the likelihood that the accumulated internal pressure
> due to rapid expansion in the dough during baking will promote the
> formation of such unsightly huge gas cells
> Now if you slash the loaves this pent up pressure is released making
> the bread expand evenly and minimize the merging of disparately sized
> bubbles.
>
> Roy
>

Well, I do always slash my freeform breads. I figured as the loafpan breads
were pretty much risen as much as they were going to, (and they really did
not rise anymore in the oven) slashing was unneeded. The finished bread had
pretty uniform holes throughout, the large bubbles were directly under the
outer crust only, if I were so inclined to peel away the crust bubbles, the
underlying bread retains a smooth surface curve. So the problem was only on
the outer skin of the risen dough. Any more thoughts?

hutchndi

"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message
news:7skae.24275$B93.24174@lakeread06...
....
> Well, I do always slash my freeform breads. I figured as the loafpan
> breads
> were pretty much risen as much as they were going to, (and they really did
> not rise anymore in the oven) slashing was unneeded. The finished bread
> had
> pretty uniform holes throughout, the large bubbles were directly under the
> outer crust only, if I were so inclined to peel away the crust bubbles,
> the
> underlying bread retains a smooth surface curve. So the problem was only
> on
> the outer skin of the risen dough. Any more thoughts?
Donno, Russ. I've done them with and w/o slashing (I pergotz, once!) and,
other than a little surface decoration, there was no real difference. I had
a few blow out a side, but it turned out that they had needed a bit more
rise time.

Mostly, now, I do HH doughs. And they seem to do just fine w/o the
slashing.

Just my $0.02 worth...


Dusty

>
> hutchndi
>
>

HUTCHNDI Apr 22, 9:47 pm

Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: "HUTCHNDI" > - Find messages by this author

Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 00:47:28 -0400
Local: Fri,Apr 22 2005 9:47 pm
Subject: Bubbles
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Report Abuse

"
>
Well, I do always slash my freeform breads. I figured as the loafpan
breads
were pretty much risen as much as they were going to, (and they really
did
not rise anymore in the oven) slashing was unneeded. The finished bread
had
pretty uniform holes throughout, the large bubbles were directly under
the
outer crust only, if I were so inclined to peel away the crust bubbles,
the
underlying bread retains a smooth surface curve. So the problem was
only on
the outer skin of the risen dough. Any more thoughts?
hutchndi
Reply


Slashing bread should be done when they are before fully proofed. If
you slash it when they are fully proofed they will not even collapse
once the blade hit the dough surface
What you stated was that the gas bubbles tend to be coarser near the
surface of the loaf than near the bottom to center. That is common with
such kind of lean recipes just flour, salt, leavening and water and
then baked on a bread pan.
Lean bread as I described previously have tougher gluten and tend to be
more elastic( due to the absence of fat) with the result that the
bubbles are compressed also to the point that when there is a weak
point they cells tend to merge to a bigger one. That weak point is
usually near the surface of the dough that has less pressure, notably
on the upper surface of the loaf, hence necessitating to slash it to
release and balance the pent up pressure.
The oven heat for such bread is high resulting in intensive crust
formation that the cells cannot expand in evenly but rather to compress
with each other that results also in merging.to bigger cell diameters.
Now you tell me that your loaves baked on loaf pan did not rise well as
the free form loaves, the reason is it was underweight for the pan
size you are using. Therefore the remedy is increase your dough weight
to eliminate that defect. Then you can be assured that your dough piece
will reach the rim of your loaf tin
Usually the loaves when molded should be half the pan depth.That is if
the loaf tin has straight edges and not trapezoidal. If the latter is
the type of loaf pan you are using say the 7x 5 x3 inch dimensions.The
effective pan volume is 105 cubic inches.
If you are using a sourdough whose effective bread specific volume is
only in the vicinity of 3.5-4.0 cubic inches per ounce compared to
4.5-5.5 for bakers yeast raised loaves.
Then .If you are using the 105 cubic inches pan volume then you will
need 26 ounces of dough weight so that it will be appropriate for that
pan size. For sourdoughs that don't rise well you will have to
increase the dough weight also. For DickA billowy loaves you may have
to decrease the scaling weight say to up to 20 ounces.
But the most important part in getting the optimum bread volume per
unit pan (volume)size is a test bake. Flour quality is also a factor.
Stronger flour tends to promote bigger volume than medium protein
flours. The technique also imparts some contribution to getting the
desired volume.
Then with a properly proportioned dough weight to tin volume you will
not be apprehensive that your dough will be fully proofed or even
exceeded the proofing height before you slash it.
You will be assured on a good oven spring and nice bold appearing
loaves with nary a big hole under the crust.
Another things also with using loaf tins you should mold it properly
ensuring that there are no entrapped large gas bubbles which will tend
to expand during proofing.
An exception is ...
If the proofing was done in humid conditions the dough tends to expand
better ( not much surface crusting due to drying)and is more flexible
due to the presence of moisture and you can bake the bread with minimal
or even no slashing.
The formation of large holes is lessened with such kind of humid proof.

Roy

I would bet that your oven is too hot. Try 375 for about 45 minutes.


"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message
news:btaae.22442$B93.12049@lakeread06...
> Ack. I am trying to make some loaves in breadpans for a change, and its is
> driving me crazy. I decided to try the loafpan route as a way of coming up
> with a fairly simple recipe for my sister to follow to make bread using my
> starter, but it has never worked well for me. I got into the habit of
> freeform baking, really it has been the only way I have baked, and now I
> am
> trying my same bread in loafpans with crazy results. I just put 2
> loafpans,
> with risen dough peeking over the top, into a hot oven (425) on preheated
> tiles as I would for my non pan bread. I don't let my freeform bread rise
> this much, I get alot of my rise in the oven, I bake my boules and such on
> tiles with a cakepan or cookiesheet for insulation against burning bottoms
> with excellent results, so I figured this would work ok too. I immediately
> started getting a few large bubbles on the surface, growing to the size of
> golfballs. I hate golf, but that's another story. I pulled out one loaf
> and
> slashed the bubbles which of course was disastrous, so I left the other
> alone.
>
> I don't see this bubble problem in any of the posts, anybody have a clue?
>
> hutchndi
>
>

Dough sets (gelates) first at the loaf surface (crust). Gases migrate =
away
from the thusly-impenetrable crust. They may exit through any beach=20
they find in the crust, resulting in a depression or dimple or collapse. =
=20
Otherwise a bubble, or bubbles, may form. Said bubble may fly the =
crust,=20
or breach it, causing local collapse.

Taking all of, or most of, the rise before baking is one solution.

(Roy, you don't like that, do you? Much too simple! Listen Roy --
bakers are not rocket scientists, nor should they expect to be.)

R.f.s.-group-googling "flying crust" (in the message texts) brings up a=20
pyrites gold mine of ancient mumblings.

Hey, the Library called to say the Hamelperson's book I ordered has
arrived. Tomorrow I will know everything. So ask me again.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

>(Roy, you don't like that, do you? Much too simple! Listen Roy --
>bakers are not rocket scientists, nor should they expect to be.)

Dickie, look beyond your narrow and myopic sight .of everything
Dough expansion and the release of gas from any weak point can be
compared
to the ejection of exhaust gases from a rocket..
..
Applying that to the dough the bakers purpose is to be able for it to
attain optimum volume , in the same way that a rocket scientist want
his launched rocket reach its target or destination.
The dough may collapse or not rise properly in a bread pan if its not
of prepared properly; a rocket may explode on flight or may be diverted
from its path and trajectory by defects of its propulsion & guidance
system

Bakers try to control that uneven expansion by considering that the
gluten membrane is flexible and by applying (their in depth
knowledge of ingredient characteristics ) it can be manipulated that
it will not reach that point that it will deflate but rise to the
desired volume
The rocket scientists manipulate the propellant combustion gases( by
selecting the appropriate propellant that can provide the maximum
thrust) that is to be ejected in one direction .impelling the rocket
to reach its target.
Therefore a baker can think like a rocket scientist, and a rocket
scientist can borrow from the ideas of a baker.Simply stated that the
formation and proper management of gas created by combustion or
fermentation must enable the dough to be baked to a satisfactory bread
and the rocket to follow the expected path of trajectory by applying
the law of physics.
Newtons law of motion can be stated like this:
For every action there is an equal opposite reaction; applied to
baking ,for every dough fermentation there is an evolution of gas and
the expansion of dough volume
The rocket vent his gases from its butt to enable it to move forward ;
the fermentation gases allow the dough to expand and attain its
desired volume
Therefore rocket science and baking had something in common.
Roy

"Roy" > wrote in message =
ups.com...

> [ ... ]

> The rocket vent his gases from its butt to enable it to move forward.

Very picturesque! =20

Calls up an ambiguous image of Roy zooming into outer space
skillfully guiding his butt-propelled rocket..

Sourgrapes!