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Bubbles
Ack. I am trying to make some loaves in breadpans for a change, and its is
driving me crazy. I decided to try the loafpan route as a way of coming up with a fairly simple recipe for my sister to follow to make bread using my starter, but it has never worked well for me. I got into the habit of freeform baking, really it has been the only way I have baked, and now I am trying my same bread in loafpans with crazy results. I just put 2 loafpans, with risen dough peeking over the top, into a hot oven (425) on preheated tiles as I would for my non pan bread. I don't let my freeform bread rise this much, I get alot of my rise in the oven, I bake my boules and such on tiles with a cakepan or cookiesheet for insulation against burning bottoms with excellent results, so I figured this would work ok too. I immediately started getting a few large bubbles on the surface, growing to the size of golfballs. I hate golf, but that's another story. I pulled out one loaf and slashed the bubbles which of course was disastrous, so I left the other alone. I don't see this bubble problem in any of the posts, anybody have a clue? hutchndi |
>I don't see this bubble problem in any of the posts, anybody have a
clue? People here usually slash their dough before baking.....therefore you need to do the same. You need to slash ( specially lean doughs) whether they are baked in bread pans or in free form in order to minimize the formation of such large bubbles. This due to uneven expansion and accumulation of stress in the various points of the dough that leads to that fault. Consider the fact that most artisanal type of bread had lean recipes and there is not enough lipid or fat to allow the flexibility of the semi rigid foam ( proofed dough) to expand evenly in all directions Just remember if your dough has uneven pore size distribution ,the gas pressure inside the small bubbles is much higher if compared to a larger bubbles. These forces the smaller bubbles to merge with the larger bubble forming a much bigger size one.. This is a variation of the phenomenon known in physical chemistry as Ostwald ripening.It can also be described as bubble coalescence. or bubble diffusion The rate at which diffusion proceeds is clearly proportional to the pressure difference and the permeability of the surrounding barrier( the gluten starch membrane between the two bubble of differing diameters. Hence there is the likelihood that the accumulated internal pressure due to rapid expansion in the dough during baking will promote the formation of such unsightly huge gas cells Now if you slash the loaves this pent up pressure is released making the bread expand evenly and minimize the merging of disparately sized bubbles. Roy |
"Roy" > wrote in message ups.com... > >I don't see this bubble problem in any of the posts, anybody have a > clue? > > People here usually slash their dough before baking.....therefore you > need to do the same. > You need to slash ( specially lean doughs) whether they are baked in > bread pans or in free form in order to minimize the formation of such > large bubbles. This due to uneven expansion and accumulation of stress > in the various points of the dough that leads to that fault. Consider > the fact that most artisanal type of bread had lean recipes and there > is not enough lipid or fat to allow the flexibility of the semi rigid > foam ( proofed dough) to expand evenly in all directions > Just remember if your dough has uneven pore size distribution ,the gas > pressure inside the small bubbles is much higher if compared to a > larger bubbles. These forces the smaller bubbles to merge with the > larger bubble forming a much bigger size one.. > This is a variation of the phenomenon known in physical chemistry as > Ostwald ripening.It can also be described as bubble coalescence. or > bubble diffusion > The rate at which diffusion proceeds is clearly proportional to the > pressure difference and the permeability of the surrounding barrier( > the gluten starch membrane between the two bubble of differing > diameters. > Hence there is the likelihood that the accumulated internal pressure > due to rapid expansion in the dough during baking will promote the > formation of such unsightly huge gas cells > Now if you slash the loaves this pent up pressure is released making > the bread expand evenly and minimize the merging of disparately sized > bubbles. > > Roy > Well, I do always slash my freeform breads. I figured as the loafpan breads were pretty much risen as much as they were going to, (and they really did not rise anymore in the oven) slashing was unneeded. The finished bread had pretty uniform holes throughout, the large bubbles were directly under the outer crust only, if I were so inclined to peel away the crust bubbles, the underlying bread retains a smooth surface curve. So the problem was only on the outer skin of the risen dough. Any more thoughts? hutchndi |
"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message
news:7skae.24275$B93.24174@lakeread06... .... > Well, I do always slash my freeform breads. I figured as the loafpan > breads > were pretty much risen as much as they were going to, (and they really did > not rise anymore in the oven) slashing was unneeded. The finished bread > had > pretty uniform holes throughout, the large bubbles were directly under the > outer crust only, if I were so inclined to peel away the crust bubbles, > the > underlying bread retains a smooth surface curve. So the problem was only > on > the outer skin of the risen dough. Any more thoughts? Donno, Russ. I've done them with and w/o slashing (I pergotz, once!) and, other than a little surface decoration, there was no real difference. I had a few blow out a side, but it turned out that they had needed a bit more rise time. Mostly, now, I do HH doughs. And they seem to do just fine w/o the slashing. Just my $0.02 worth... Dusty > > hutchndi > > |
HUTCHNDI Apr 22, 9:47 pm Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough From: "HUTCHNDI" > - Find messages by this author Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 00:47:28 -0400 Local: Fri,Apr 22 2005 9:47 pm Subject: Bubbles Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse " > Well, I do always slash my freeform breads. I figured as the loafpan breads were pretty much risen as much as they were going to, (and they really did not rise anymore in the oven) slashing was unneeded. The finished bread had pretty uniform holes throughout, the large bubbles were directly under the outer crust only, if I were so inclined to peel away the crust bubbles, the underlying bread retains a smooth surface curve. So the problem was only on the outer skin of the risen dough. Any more thoughts? hutchndi Reply Slashing bread should be done when they are before fully proofed. If you slash it when they are fully proofed they will not even collapse once the blade hit the dough surface What you stated was that the gas bubbles tend to be coarser near the surface of the loaf than near the bottom to center. That is common with such kind of lean recipes just flour, salt, leavening and water and then baked on a bread pan. Lean bread as I described previously have tougher gluten and tend to be more elastic( due to the absence of fat) with the result that the bubbles are compressed also to the point that when there is a weak point they cells tend to merge to a bigger one. That weak point is usually near the surface of the dough that has less pressure, notably on the upper surface of the loaf, hence necessitating to slash it to release and balance the pent up pressure. The oven heat for such bread is high resulting in intensive crust formation that the cells cannot expand in evenly but rather to compress with each other that results also in merging.to bigger cell diameters. Now you tell me that your loaves baked on loaf pan did not rise well as the free form loaves, the reason is it was underweight for the pan size you are using. Therefore the remedy is increase your dough weight to eliminate that defect. Then you can be assured that your dough piece will reach the rim of your loaf tin Usually the loaves when molded should be half the pan depth.That is if the loaf tin has straight edges and not trapezoidal. If the latter is the type of loaf pan you are using say the 7x 5 x3 inch dimensions.The effective pan volume is 105 cubic inches. If you are using a sourdough whose effective bread specific volume is only in the vicinity of 3.5-4.0 cubic inches per ounce compared to 4.5-5.5 for bakers yeast raised loaves. Then .If you are using the 105 cubic inches pan volume then you will need 26 ounces of dough weight so that it will be appropriate for that pan size. For sourdoughs that don't rise well you will have to increase the dough weight also. For DickA billowy loaves you may have to decrease the scaling weight say to up to 20 ounces. But the most important part in getting the optimum bread volume per unit pan (volume)size is a test bake. Flour quality is also a factor. Stronger flour tends to promote bigger volume than medium protein flours. The technique also imparts some contribution to getting the desired volume. Then with a properly proportioned dough weight to tin volume you will not be apprehensive that your dough will be fully proofed or even exceeded the proofing height before you slash it. You will be assured on a good oven spring and nice bold appearing loaves with nary a big hole under the crust. Another things also with using loaf tins you should mold it properly ensuring that there are no entrapped large gas bubbles which will tend to expand during proofing. An exception is ... If the proofing was done in humid conditions the dough tends to expand better ( not much surface crusting due to drying)and is more flexible due to the presence of moisture and you can bake the bread with minimal or even no slashing. The formation of large holes is lessened with such kind of humid proof. Roy |
I would bet that your oven is too hot. Try 375 for about 45 minutes.
"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message news:btaae.22442$B93.12049@lakeread06... > Ack. I am trying to make some loaves in breadpans for a change, and its is > driving me crazy. I decided to try the loafpan route as a way of coming up > with a fairly simple recipe for my sister to follow to make bread using my > starter, but it has never worked well for me. I got into the habit of > freeform baking, really it has been the only way I have baked, and now I > am > trying my same bread in loafpans with crazy results. I just put 2 > loafpans, > with risen dough peeking over the top, into a hot oven (425) on preheated > tiles as I would for my non pan bread. I don't let my freeform bread rise > this much, I get alot of my rise in the oven, I bake my boules and such on > tiles with a cakepan or cookiesheet for insulation against burning bottoms > with excellent results, so I figured this would work ok too. I immediately > started getting a few large bubbles on the surface, growing to the size of > golfballs. I hate golf, but that's another story. I pulled out one loaf > and > slashed the bubbles which of course was disastrous, so I left the other > alone. > > I don't see this bubble problem in any of the posts, anybody have a clue? > > hutchndi > > |
Dough sets (gelates) first at the loaf surface (crust). Gases migrate =
away from the thusly-impenetrable crust. They may exit through any beach=20 they find in the crust, resulting in a depression or dimple or collapse. = =20 Otherwise a bubble, or bubbles, may form. Said bubble may fly the = crust,=20 or breach it, causing local collapse. Taking all of, or most of, the rise before baking is one solution. (Roy, you don't like that, do you? Much too simple! Listen Roy -- bakers are not rocket scientists, nor should they expect to be.) R.f.s.-group-googling "flying crust" (in the message texts) brings up a=20 pyrites gold mine of ancient mumblings. Hey, the Library called to say the Hamelperson's book I ordered has arrived. Tomorrow I will know everything. So ask me again. --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
>(Roy, you don't like that, do you? Much too simple! Listen Roy --
>bakers are not rocket scientists, nor should they expect to be.) Dickie, look beyond your narrow and myopic sight .of everything Dough expansion and the release of gas from any weak point can be compared to the ejection of exhaust gases from a rocket.. .. Applying that to the dough the bakers purpose is to be able for it to attain optimum volume , in the same way that a rocket scientist want his launched rocket reach its target or destination. The dough may collapse or not rise properly in a bread pan if its not of prepared properly; a rocket may explode on flight or may be diverted from its path and trajectory by defects of its propulsion & guidance system Bakers try to control that uneven expansion by considering that the gluten membrane is flexible and by applying (their in depth knowledge of ingredient characteristics ) it can be manipulated that it will not reach that point that it will deflate but rise to the desired volume The rocket scientists manipulate the propellant combustion gases( by selecting the appropriate propellant that can provide the maximum thrust) that is to be ejected in one direction .impelling the rocket to reach its target. Therefore a baker can think like a rocket scientist, and a rocket scientist can borrow from the ideas of a baker.Simply stated that the formation and proper management of gas created by combustion or fermentation must enable the dough to be baked to a satisfactory bread and the rocket to follow the expected path of trajectory by applying the law of physics. Newtons law of motion can be stated like this: For every action there is an equal opposite reaction; applied to baking ,for every dough fermentation there is an evolution of gas and the expansion of dough volume The rocket vent his gases from its butt to enable it to move forward ; the fermentation gases allow the dough to expand and attain its desired volume Therefore rocket science and baking had something in common. Roy |
"Roy" > wrote in message = ups.com... > [ ... ] > The rocket vent his gases from its butt to enable it to move forward. Very picturesque! =20 Calls up an ambiguous image of Roy zooming into outer space skillfully guiding his butt-propelled rocket.. |
Sourgrapes!
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"Roy" > wrote in message = oups.com... > Sourgrapes! Oh, Roy ...=20 Hey listen, Roy, Over there at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sourdough/ they are explaining to one another how to make barm. Why don't you jet yourself over there and teach them some rocket science? Well, you have to sign up, so let me give you a preview -- Below is a recent posting (given there as a non-attributed quotation). I thought it might have been due to Jeff Renner (a historic r.f.s. = poster) but I wonder if he would have exactly said some of those things. Roy, I would like you to critique the article, and tell us, and them, if = you=20 feel that any corrections could be usefully made. The article is by a beer maker, and, as you know, next to rocket scientists, they know the most. Quote: "How are the sourness and leavening of starters related? Don't let the subject scare you off. My kids tease me that since I left=20 teaching (biology among other subjects), I have to find other people to=20 listen to me. They are the usual targets. I'll try to be gentle - and=20 practical. There have been several posts over the last little while asking the=20 same question in different ways - how are the sourness and leavening of=20 starters related? Some starters seem too sour, or not sour enough, or=20 have lost their sourness, or are sluggish or too active (not a problem=20 for most) and folks want to know how to manipulate this. It also has=20 been pointed out that lactobacilli are anaerobes, but this needs=20 expansion. Here are some thoughts on this. I am a homebrewer, and have read a good bit about yeast growth. Baking=20 and brewing yeast are just different strains of the same species, but=20 wild yeasts are different species, and some are even different genera,=20 so this may not apply to all, but I suspect it does. Cultured yeast needs oxygen to reproduce, so once it has depleted the=20 oxygen in a starter/sponge/dough, it has pretty much reached the=20 population it's going to have. After this, it shifts its metabolism to=20 anaerobic. Assuming that wild yeast are much the same, this means that=20 letting a starter or sponge sit longer is not going to result in much=20 more yeast, and therefore will not increase its leavening power. It=20 will become more sour (see below). Lactobacilli are facultative anaerobes (as opposed to obligatory=20 anaerobes), so they will continue to metabolize and reproduce *either=20 with or without oxygen*. However, they only produce lactic acid once=20 the oxygen is depleted, resulting in a more sour starter/sponge/dough=20 the longer you let it sit. I don't think you need to worry about=20 excluding air - the surface above the sponge or whatever is full of CO2=20 from the yeast, so very little oxygen is going to diffuse into the=20 sponge, especially if you have it covered, and this will keep it from=20 drying out, too. Of course, during this time, the gluten will=20 deteriorate the longer you let it sit. What does this all mean? If you want a maximally active culture, whip=20 all the air you can into it each time you build it. I add the water=20 first and whip this thin batter to a froth with an electric mixer, then=20 mix in the flour. This results in maximum yeast reproduction. Then, as=20 soon as it has used up all this oxygen, I build it again. Of course,=20 it's hard to tell just when this is, but I generally let a sponge go=20 until it just begins to fall. If you want a more sour bread, let either=20 the starter/sponge/dough go longer. I find that with high protein flour=20 such as bread or hard whole wheat, the dough can withstand two full=20 rises before shaping into loaves, resulting in more flavor (not just=20 more sourness, but that, too). I hope this little science lesson has practical benefits to your bread=20 baking. If anyone knows more details about how wild yeasts and=20 lactobacilli interact, I'd welcome hearing it, especially if I'm wrong.=20 I suspect the symbiosis of some cultures may change things, but this=20 works with my Poilane (originally) starter. -Jeff " Unquote |
"Roy" > wrote in message = oups.com... > Sourgrapes! Oh, Roy ...=20 Hey listen, Roy, Over there at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sourdough/ they are explaining to one another how to make barm. Why don't you jet yourself over there and teach them some rocket science? Well, you have to sign up, so let me give you a preview -- Below is a recent posting (given there as a non-attributed quotation). I thought it might have been due to Jeff Renner (a historic r.f.s. = poster) but I wonder if he would have exactly said some of those things. Roy, I would like you to critique the article, and tell us, and them, if = you=20 feel that any corrections could be usefully made. The article is by a beer maker, and, as you know, next to rocket scientists, they know the most. Quote: "How are the sourness and leavening of starters related? Don't let the subject scare you off. My kids tease me that since I left=20 teaching (biology among other subjects), I have to find other people to=20 listen to me. They are the usual targets. I'll try to be gentle - and=20 practical. There have been several posts over the last little while asking the=20 same question in different ways - how are the sourness and leavening of=20 starters related? Some starters seem too sour, or not sour enough, or=20 have lost their sourness, or are sluggish or too active (not a problem=20 for most) and folks want to know how to manipulate this. It also has=20 been pointed out that lactobacilli are anaerobes, but this needs=20 expansion. Here are some thoughts on this. I am a homebrewer, and have read a good bit about yeast growth. Baking=20 and brewing yeast are just different strains of the same species, but=20 wild yeasts are different species, and some are even different genera,=20 so this may not apply to all, but I suspect it does. Cultured yeast needs oxygen to reproduce, so once it has depleted the=20 oxygen in a starter/sponge/dough, it has pretty much reached the=20 population it's going to have. After this, it shifts its metabolism to=20 anaerobic. Assuming that wild yeast are much the same, this means that=20 letting a starter or sponge sit longer is not going to result in much=20 more yeast, and therefore will not increase its leavening power. It=20 will become more sour (see below). Lactobacilli are facultative anaerobes (as opposed to obligatory=20 anaerobes), so they will continue to metabolize and reproduce *either=20 with or without oxygen*. However, they only produce lactic acid once=20 the oxygen is depleted, resulting in a more sour starter/sponge/dough=20 the longer you let it sit. I don't think you need to worry about=20 excluding air - the surface above the sponge or whatever is full of CO2=20 from the yeast, so very little oxygen is going to diffuse into the=20 sponge, especially if you have it covered, and this will keep it from=20 drying out, too. Of course, during this time, the gluten will=20 deteriorate the longer you let it sit. What does this all mean? If you want a maximally active culture, whip=20 all the air you can into it each time you build it. I add the water=20 first and whip this thin batter to a froth with an electric mixer, then=20 mix in the flour. This results in maximum yeast reproduction. Then, as=20 soon as it has used up all this oxygen, I build it again. Of course,=20 it's hard to tell just when this is, but I generally let a sponge go=20 until it just begins to fall. If you want a more sour bread, let either=20 the starter/sponge/dough go longer. I find that with high protein flour=20 such as bread or hard whole wheat, the dough can withstand two full=20 rises before shaping into loaves, resulting in more flavor (not just=20 more sourness, but that, too). I hope this little science lesson has practical benefits to your bread=20 baking. If anyone knows more details about how wild yeasts and=20 lactobacilli interact, I'd welcome hearing it, especially if I'm wrong.=20 I suspect the symbiosis of some cultures may change things, but this=20 works with my Poilane (originally) starter. -Jeff " Unquote |
Well, this is more than I was looking for, it gets hard to follow and find
thewell intentioned and informative answers when your not at the computer constantly and have to sift through replys for responces that relate to your question. I guess what I will try is lowering my temp, adding 20% more dough and slashing next time, I gleaned that much from this anyways, thanks all. hutchndi |
"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message=20 news:jaPae.30542$gV.4580@lakeread02... > it gets hard to follow and find the well intentioned and informative=20 > answers when your not at the computer constantly and have to sift=20 > through replys for responces that relate to your question.=20 > I guess what I will try is lowering my temp, adding 20% more dough > and slashing next time, I gleaned that much from this anyways, thanks=20 > all. Did you try taking more of your rise before baking, as per |
"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message=20 news:jaPae.30542$gV.4580@lakeread02... > it gets hard to follow and find the well intentioned and informative=20 > answers when your not at the computer constantly and have to sift=20 > through replys for responces that relate to your question.=20 > I guess what I will try is lowering my temp, adding 20% more dough > and slashing next time, I gleaned that much from this anyways, thanks=20 > all. Did you try taking more of your rise before baking, as per |
>Hey listen, Roy, I am all ears Dick >Over there at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/=ACSourdough/ they are >explaining to one another how to make barm. Why don't you jet >yourself over there and teach them some rocket science? Maybe some other time Dick, >Below is a recent posting (given there as a non-attributed quotation). >I thought it might have been due to Jeff Renner (a historic r.f.s. poster) >but I wonder if he would have exactly said some of those things. Thanks for that Dick! >Roy, I would like you to critique the article, and tell us, and them, if you >feel that any corrections could be usefully made. The article is by a >beer maker, and, as you know, next to rocket scientists, they know >the most. Hmmn .....let's see... "How are the sourness and leavening of starters related? >There have been several posts over the last little while asking the >same question in different ways - how are the sourness and leavening of >starters related? Some starters seem too sour, or not sour enough, or >have lost their sourness, or are sluggish or too active (not a problem >for most) and folks want to know how to manipulate this. It also has >been pointed out that lactobacilli are anaerobes, but this needs >expansion. Here are some thoughts on this. >I am a homebrewer, and have read a good bit about yeast growth. Baking >and brewing yeast are just different strains of the same species, but >wild yeasts are different species, and some are even different genera, >so this may not apply to all, but I suspect it does. He is right the same specie what we call Saccharomyces Cereviseae is the name for bakers, brewers, wine and distillers yeast but with a subspecie that specifies the particular strain. Brewers yeast varies: if its top fermenting of ale yeast that is called saccharomyces cereviseae that is the ancestor of our bakers yeast. This answers the question that wild yeasts that is present in sourdough can contain also the hardy and acid tolerant type of saccharomyces cereviseae in combination with Candida Millerie in some sourdoughs starter cultures. The other yeast known as lager yeast or bottom fermenting yeast is called by the name Saccharomyces uvarum, which was nicknamed by the Carsberg beer as Saccharomyces carbergensis. >Cultured yeast needs oxygen to reproduce, so once it has depleted the >oxygen in a starter/sponge/dough, it has pretty much reached the >population it's going to have. After this, it shifts its metabolism to >anaerobic. Assuming that wild yeast are much the same, this means that >letting a starter or sponge sit longer is not going to result in much >more yeast, and therefore will not increase its leavening power. It >will become more sour (see below). Yes, I think most yeasts can act both as an aerobe and anaerobe. The use oxygen for growth but does not need it for fermentative activity . >Lactobacilli are facultative anaerobes (as opposed to obligatory >anaerobes), so they will continue to metabolize and reproduce *either >with or without oxygen*. Yes >However, they only produce lactic acid once >the oxygen is depleted, resulting in a more sour starter/sponge/dough >the longer you let it sit. I don't think you need to worry about >excluding air - the surface above the sponge or whatever is full of CO2 >from the yeast, so very little oxygen is going to diffuse into the >sponge, especially if you have it covered, and this will keep it from >drying out, too. Hmnn in some point he is right but partially ,,,,, he is thinking only of the homofermentative microbes that produces only lactic acid, he missed out the heterofermentative cittters which are significantly more important in sourdough which can produce aside from weak acid lactic but also a stronger acid , acetic acid as well >What does this all mean? If you want a maximally active culture, whip >all the air you can into it each time you build it. I add the water >first and whip this thin batter to a froth with an electric mixer, then >mix in the flour. This results in maximum yeast reproduction. Then, as >soon as it has used up all this oxygen, I build it again. Of course, >it's hard to tell just when this is, but I generally let a sponge go >until it just begins to fall. If you want a more sour bread, let either >the starter/sponge/dough go longer. I find that with high protein flour >such as bread or hard whole wheat, the dough can withstand two full >rises before shaping into loaves, resulting in more flavor (not just >more sourness, but that, too). Yeah, ...That is the logic why certain bakeries that use Liquid starters refresh their culture only once a day( like I mentioned in my previous post in this NG) which is contrary to most of the hobbyist experience as they have to refresh their starter twice or even thrice a day!. But unfortunately he missed to apply his reasoning on the economic feasibility of one day refreshment if he can only managed the fermentation rate properly by temperature control just like what I elaborated in my previous posts. They are virtually wasting flour and their time by not economizing on the available nutrients that are still present in the substrate. An occasional aeration can go a long way in enhancing the yeast activity! Some sourdough and fermentation scientists may disagree on this scanty refreshment technique ,but they have to visit those bakeries who has been practicing these technique for years and see it with their own eyes , simulate those techniques in their laboratory, scale it up the tests and statistically analyze the data ( and by all means )humbly reconsider rewriting their ideas about the still undocumented technique related to sourdough fermentation=20 Roy |
"Dick Adams" > wrote in message ... "HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message news:jaPae.30542$gV.4580@lakeread02... > it gets hard to follow and find the well intentioned and informative > answers when your not at the computer constantly and have to sift > through replys for responces that relate to your question. > I guess what I will try is lowering my temp, adding 20% more dough > and slashing next time, I gleaned that much from this anyways, thanks > all. Did you try taking more of your rise before baking, as per Well, actually I believe that I did let these loaves rise their full extent or close to it. When I first put the dough in the pans, it was probably only an inch or so in the bottom. You had made a comment earlier that your basic loafpan holds 32 oz. I poured 50 oz of water from a measuring cup into my loafpan, so they are probably bigger than what you use, though I still go by your basic quantities to make my dough. As I said, I let them raise till peeking over the top. What I did not meantion though, if this mattersat all, is that immediately after placing the dough in the pans I placed them in the fridge covered with plastic wrap, as I did not want them to rise till the next day. hutchndi |
"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message = news:nh9be.33178$gV.25067@lakeread02... > You had made a comment earlier that your basic loafpan holds 32 oz.=20 If I said that, I must have been nuts -- these pans hold ~ 64 fl. oz. = Please see: http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...ead%5Frev.html > As I said, I let them raise till peeking over the top. The linked procedure above says 3 in. over the top of the pans is = possible. Actually, that may be conservative. If your dough has expanded by a factor of five, or even four, there is = not much potential for "oven push", nor big voids under the crust, nor collapses = where such big bubbles burst. Check out http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ad02JAN04.html = .. Those loaves were fully risen before going into the oven, i.e., no "oven = push". However, that is not the usual way of doing things. And it is not = entirely simple to develop dough to the point where it can sustain a 5X rise. > What I did not mention though, if this matters at all, is that = immediately=20 > after placing the dough in the pans I placed them in the fridge = covered=20 > with plastic wrap, as I did not want them to rise till the next day. Lemme ask you this: Suppose you are cozy in your cabin with chestnuts roasting on an open fire, and you got a babe ready to go on the couch: What do you do then -- open all of the windows and say "good night"? -- DickA |
AHEM>>>
What I consider to be a standard-sized bread pan holds one quart of water, which is to say that it has a volume of 32 fluid ounces. Please see: http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...ead%5Frev.html There is a link to more recent Instructions at http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/dickpics/billowy.html -- Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com Sorry, I just had to find that. As for the firdge thing... So, even though it wasn't my purpose to retard the dough in the fridge for more flavor, as some recommend, its not a good idea to slow down the process just for convenience? I work for a living, and this would work for my schedule, or should I quit my job, and just bake bread? hutchndi |
"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message = news:nNkbe.34207$gV.10136@lakeread02... > AHEM>>> > [ ... ] (content of = = )(reflecting volumetric dissonance) > AHEM>>>AHEM>>> So who is perfect? > should I quit my job, and just bake bread? Yeah, sure! Quit! Fit in with all us idle rich people. |
"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message = news:nNkbe.34207$gV.10136@lakeread02... > AHEM>>> > [ ... ] (content of = = )(reflecting volumetric dissonance) > AHEM>>>AHEM>>> So who is perfect? > should I quit my job, and just bake bread? Yeah, sure! Quit! Fit in with all us idle rich people. |
Well, tried lowering my temp to 375, , adding 20% more dough an slashing.
Same big bubbles on crust. I am going back to freeform bread, it was much easier, if my sister wants to bake with my starter with loaf pans, she can work it out. hutchndi |
>Well, tried lowering my temp to 375, , adding 20% more dough an slashing. Same big bubbles on crust. I am going back to freeform bread, it was much easier, if my sister wants to bake with my starter with loaf pans, she can work it out. Have pity on your sister who is not presumably used to breadmaking. I think she is the one asking you to help her with the problem. Keep in mind that you are the only one who can truly help her. And the rfs group is trying to help you! Please set aside your 'pride chicken' as that will not help .... Note: if you had read the following suggestions to letter and understood it but you still fail to attain your objective, you have let your pride chicken get the better of you<g>. by not following and understanding the instructions<g> I have given you a hint in my earlier post to this thread, for you sake I will try to explain it as simple as possible, BRATS...Breathe Relax,Aspire (what you want) Think and Start! Have a second look at the issue try focus on it,,,,, analyze the problem. Start by Estimate the approximate pan volume of your pans in cubic centimeters or inches by measuring the actual dimensions of the pan then multiplying the length, width and depth Estimate how many times was the volume of your fully proofed loaves before you bake it. Is it 2, 3 or 4 times the original molded size.? Then use that estimated value to calculate how much dough you need to scale for your loaf pans knowing the calculated volume of you loaf tin. That is divide the pan volume by that factor that you estimate from your observation. Say for example: you had a pan dimensions of 7 inches by 5 inches by 3 inches, L x W x D =7 x5 x3 = 105 inches cubed or cubic inches. Now if you estimate that your proofed dough was three times the original molded size, Then 105 /3 =35 ounces or if 4 times ; 105/4 =26 ounces. Taking that desired weight into consideration examine your recipe and check its total ingredient weights; or if you don't use a scale estimate your ingredients weight by using a tabulated values of measured ingredients .e.g.; for example a cup of flour weighs more than 4 ounces, a cup of water weighs 8 ounces, a cup of starter may weigh somewhat similar to water( about 8 ounces) a teaspoon of salt weighs about 1/6 of and ounce and so on. To see if your recipe was within that range sum up your ingredient weights and allow for (maximum )of 10% fermentation loss ; Say for example ; your total ingredient weight is 40 ounces then give allowance for fermentation loss about 4 ounces so, you have an approximate weight of 36 ounces more than enough for your calculated pan volume. If your existing recipe is below the range of the desired scaling weight then increase the recipe correspondingly. Now to minimize bubbles formation,roll your rested scaled and rounded dough piece with a rolling pin to an oblong shape and mold your dough into a tight cylinder ( like molding a normal loaf bread). To prevent holes formation dock the dough before you place in the pan by piercing it with a skewer several times. Give it enough proof preferably in humid conditions and bake when the bread is slightly above the pan rim . Another way to prevent holes is divide the scaled dough into two pieces ,Round it up and cover with tea towel, let it rest for 15 minutes, then mold it into a cylinder then twist them three times and place in your prepared load tin and proof. Proof it until the dough levels with the pan rim or slightly more. Bake Properly.... Good Luck! Roy |
>,Round it up and cover with tea towel, let it rest for 15 minutes,
then >mold it into a cylinder then twist them three times and place in your >prepared load tin and proof Here you have to twist them together to form a "loose rope" Another option for even grained loaf and no holes is to cut the molded one piece dough cylinder scaled to fit the pan size into 4 equal pieces then arrange them side by side ( adjacent) to form 4 segments. Place in the pan an proof. Roy |
HUTCHNDI wrote:
> Well, tried lowering my temp to 375, , adding 20% more dough an slashing. > Same big bubbles on crust. I am going back to freeform bread, it was much > easier, if my sister wants to bake with my starter with loaf pans, she can > work it out. > > hutchndi > > Can you say that it is one of these mistakes / bubbles in your bread or does it look totally different? http://www.cafeerner.de/Produkte/Bro...otfehler-1.jpg Those pictures show the worst mistakes in bread and describe the reason in a few words. Joschi -- Address to mail me: Um mir eine Nachricht zu schicken: non_tox ::ATE:: web ::DOG:: de |
Actually, here is a pic I took, and what I am doing, as I am attempting
things differently so as to give me time to let it rise in the pans, difficult on my second shift work schedule... http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm The pic doesnt show the crust bubbles that well, I ate the really big ones.... hutchndi |
"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message=20 news:Ffkce.53$%44.39@lakeread06... =20 > http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm > The pic doesnt show the crust bubbles that well, I ate the really big > ones.... Your bread and your photos could be improved. To start, simple dough based on bread flour alone (& salt & water) is easiest to get a good result with. Higher hydrations are the most = difficult. "Retarding" adds difficulty. Biggest pitfall is overdevelopment of the sponge -- after that poor gluten development. You seem to be starting out with things severely tipped against you, courageously striking out = for=20 the "holy grail" (the huge bubbles) at the outset. Another problem you get is bad advice, as the result of such pathetic postings. Anybody who considers his sorry loaves look slightly better than yours now feels qualified as an advice giver. I make pretty good white sourdough bread, and give good advice. The problem with my advice is that it is very hard to find. I suppose I = could try giving advice about taking digital photos, but how can you take bad pictures with a digital camera(?) -- well maybe a cheap one does not=20 focus down enough for close-ups (macrophotography). Notwithstanding that there will be people who will not be able to find it, here is an example which attempts to make my claims credible: http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F.../bread27APR05/ For what it's worth (probably nothing!). --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message=20 news:Ffkce.53$%44.39@lakeread06... =20 > http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm > The pic doesnt show the crust bubbles that well, I ate the really big > ones.... Your bread and your photos could be improved. To start, simple dough based on bread flour alone (& salt & water) is easiest to get a good result with. Higher hydrations are the most = difficult. "Retarding" adds difficulty. Biggest pitfall is overdevelopment of the sponge -- after that poor gluten development. You seem to be starting out with things severely tipped against you, courageously striking out = for=20 the "holy grail" (the huge bubbles) at the outset. Another problem you get is bad advice, as the result of such pathetic postings. Anybody who considers his sorry loaves look slightly better than yours now feels qualified as an advice giver. I make pretty good white sourdough bread, and give good advice. The problem with my advice is that it is very hard to find. I suppose I = could try giving advice about taking digital photos, but how can you take bad pictures with a digital camera(?) -- well maybe a cheap one does not=20 focus down enough for close-ups (macrophotography). Notwithstanding that there will be people who will not be able to find it, here is an example which attempts to make my claims credible: http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F.../bread27APR05/ For what it's worth (probably nothing!). --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
HUTCHNDI wrote:
> Actually, here is a pic I took, and what I am doing, as I am attempting > things differently so as to give me time to let it rise in the pans, > difficult on my second shift work schedule... > > http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm > > The pic doesnt show the crust bubbles that well, I ate the really big > ones.... > > hutchndi > > The german pictures show flying crust that is caused by high amylase activity - which canīt be the case with your bread. Amylase is stopped by high acidity - thatīs why we use it for rye bread. Rye has so much amylase in it that the dough could hardly hold any gas bubbles after the amylase has split up all the starch. Your bread looks as if the gluten had been damaged by overproofing. Either try to add some gluten to your dough by changing to high gluten flour or by adding it straight to your formula - or reduce the time of proofing. Just my two cents worth. Joschi -- Address to mail me: Um mir eine Nachricht zu schicken: non_tox ::ATE:: web ::DOG:: de |
HUTCHNDI wrote:
> Actually, here is a pic I took, and what I am doing, as I am attempting > things differently so as to give me time to let it rise in the pans, > difficult on my second shift work schedule... > > http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm > > The pic doesnt show the crust bubbles that well, I ate the really big > ones.... > > hutchndi > > The german pictures show flying crust that is caused by high amylase activity - which canīt be the case with your bread. Amylase is stopped by high acidity - thatīs why we use it for rye bread. Rye has so much amylase in it that the dough could hardly hold any gas bubbles after the amylase has split up all the starch. Your bread looks as if the gluten had been damaged by overproofing. Either try to add some gluten to your dough by changing to high gluten flour or by adding it straight to your formula - or reduce the time of proofing. Just my two cents worth. Joschi -- Address to mail me: Um mir eine Nachricht zu schicken: non_tox ::ATE:: web ::DOG:: de |
"Dick Adams" > wrote in message ... "HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message news:Ffkce.53$%44.39@lakeread06... > http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm > The pic doesnt show the crust bubbles that well, I ate the really big > ones.... Your bread and your photos could be improved. To start, simple dough based on bread flour alone (& salt & water) is easiest to get a good result with. Higher hydrations are the most difficult. "Retarding" adds difficulty. Biggest pitfall is overdevelopment of the sponge -- after that poor gluten development. You seem to be starting out with things severely tipped against you, courageously striking out for the "holy grail" (the huge bubbles) at the outset. Another problem you get is bad advice, as the result of such pathetic postings. Anybody who considers his sorry loaves look slightly better than yours now feels qualified as an advice giver. I make pretty good white sourdough bread, and give good advice. The problem with my advice is that it is very hard to find. I suppose I could try giving advice about taking digital photos, but how can you take bad pictures with a digital camera(?) -- well maybe a cheap one does not focus down enough for close-ups (macrophotography). Notwithstanding that there will be people who will not be able to find it, here is an example which attempts to make my claims credible: http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F.../bread27APR05/ For what it's worth (probably nothing!). -- Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html I dont actually have a digital camera, I had to use my cheapo $10.00 webcam and take a still shot. hutchndi |
"Dick Adams" > wrote in message ... "HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message news:Ffkce.53$%44.39@lakeread06... > http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm > The pic doesnt show the crust bubbles that well, I ate the really big > ones.... Your bread and your photos could be improved. To start, simple dough based on bread flour alone (& salt & water) is easiest to get a good result with. Higher hydrations are the most difficult. "Retarding" adds difficulty. Biggest pitfall is overdevelopment of the sponge -- after that poor gluten development. You seem to be starting out with things severely tipped against you, courageously striking out for the "holy grail" (the huge bubbles) at the outset. Another problem you get is bad advice, as the result of such pathetic postings. Anybody who considers his sorry loaves look slightly better than yours now feels qualified as an advice giver. I make pretty good white sourdough bread, and give good advice. The problem with my advice is that it is very hard to find. I suppose I could try giving advice about taking digital photos, but how can you take bad pictures with a digital camera(?) -- well maybe a cheap one does not focus down enough for close-ups (macrophotography). Notwithstanding that there will be people who will not be able to find it, here is an example which attempts to make my claims credible: http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F.../bread27APR05/ For what it's worth (probably nothing!). -- Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html Yes Dick you do make very good looking white bread, unfortunately we (me and the Mrs) do not care for white bread very much. Sourdough white bread is definately miles ahead of any store bought white bread, even the sourdough white bread I bake is pretty tasty, but to us it is still white bread, and I would much prefer to eat imperfectly baked bread with all the stuff I like in it than perfect white bread. That may be an unpopular statement, but it true for us. I am also not out for huge holes. I only use the wet dough because after I made all the changes in my breadbaking after watching an artisan bread DVD, and after getting so much better results, I stuck with the wet dough. This I may have to change in learning to use loafpans too, this is one of the things I am trying to learn here. Perhaps if I had just done everything the same and just put my streched and folded shaped and formed unrefrigerated dough in the pans and baked them, I never would have had a problem either. But I will say that the fridge delay added flavor that was nice anyways, I wouldnt mind keeping that step once I get this crust bubble problem solved. Oh yes, I will try to get my postings a notch closer to "not pathetic" in the future. hutchndi |
HUTCHNDI wrote:
> Yes Dick you do make very good looking white bread, unfortunately we (me and > the Mrs) do not care for white bread very much. Sourdough white bread is > definately miles ahead of any store bought white bread, even the sourdough > white bread I bake is pretty tasty, but to us it is still white bread, and I > would much prefer to eat imperfectly baked bread with all the stuff I like > in it than perfect white bread. I don't know what your level of expertise as a baker is, so I'll apologize up front if this is pointed at the wrong person. I strongly suggest to beginning bakers, and even beginning sourdough bakers, that they start with white breads. Why? They're easier. It lets you get a feel for how the dough should feel, how it handles, and so forth. Once you have that down, make some mixed breads, part white, parth whole wheat. And then move on from there. "Breads from Laurel's Kitchen" is an excellent book on whole grain breads, as is Beatrice Ojakangas' "Great Whole Grain Breads". However, neither of these otherwise fine bakers have a good handle on sourdough. Some people like other books, but I haven't gotten to them yet. Both books are usually available as used books on half.com for very reasonable prices. > But I will say that the fridge delay added flavor that was nice anyways, I wouldnt mind keeping > that step once I get this crust bubble problem solved. Having been there, overproofing and too high a level of hydration are key issues. You could also cut back on starter. Mike |
HUTCHNDI wrote:
> Yes Dick you do make very good looking white bread, unfortunately we (me and > the Mrs) do not care for white bread very much. Sourdough white bread is > definately miles ahead of any store bought white bread, even the sourdough > white bread I bake is pretty tasty, but to us it is still white bread, and I > would much prefer to eat imperfectly baked bread with all the stuff I like > in it than perfect white bread. I don't know what your level of expertise as a baker is, so I'll apologize up front if this is pointed at the wrong person. I strongly suggest to beginning bakers, and even beginning sourdough bakers, that they start with white breads. Why? They're easier. It lets you get a feel for how the dough should feel, how it handles, and so forth. Once you have that down, make some mixed breads, part white, parth whole wheat. And then move on from there. "Breads from Laurel's Kitchen" is an excellent book on whole grain breads, as is Beatrice Ojakangas' "Great Whole Grain Breads". However, neither of these otherwise fine bakers have a good handle on sourdough. Some people like other books, but I haven't gotten to them yet. Both books are usually available as used books on half.com for very reasonable prices. > But I will say that the fridge delay added flavor that was nice anyways, I wouldnt mind keeping > that step once I get this crust bubble problem solved. Having been there, overproofing and too high a level of hydration are key issues. You could also cut back on starter. Mike |
"Mike Avery" > wrote in message news:mailman.26.1114796076.62257.rec.food.sourdoug ... > HUTCHNDI wrote: > > > Yes Dick you do make very good looking white bread, unfortunately we > (me and > the Mrs) do not care for white bread very much. Sourdough > white bread is > definately miles ahead of any store bought white bread, > even the sourdough > white bread I bake is pretty tasty, but to us it is > still white bread, and I > would much prefer to eat imperfectly baked > bread with all the stuff I like > in it than perfect white bread. I > don't know what your level of expertise as a baker is, so I'll apologize > up front if this is pointed at the wrong person. I strongly suggest to > beginning bakers, and even beginning sourdough bakers, that they start > with white breads. Why? They're easier. It lets you get a feel for how > the dough should feel, how it handles, and so forth. Once you have that > down, make some mixed breads, part white, parth whole wheat. And then > move on from there. "Breads from Laurel's Kitchen" is an excellent book > on whole grain breads, as is Beatrice Ojakangas' "Great Whole Grain > Breads". However, neither of these otherwise fine bakers have a good > handle on sourdough. Some people like other books, but I haven't gotten > to them yet. Both books are usually available as used books on half.com > for very reasonable prices. > But I will say that the fridge delay added > flavor that was nice anyways, I wouldnt mind keeping > that step once I > get this crust bubble problem solved. Having been there, overproofing > and too high a level of hydration are key issues. You could also cut > back on starter. Mike > > Mike you are most right I am sure, And for the most part all of my first bread was white, and at my level I should probably be still baking all white, but I got far enough where I could at least bake something edible with a bit more good stuff added to the white, and we are enjoying the eating part of it at least too much to go back to all white. I occasionally do go back to it, and when I do I try to learn as much as possible. If my plan is to pretty much always bake with a somewhat more non white flour mix, why wouldn't it make sense too stick with it? hutchndi |
"Mike Avery" > wrote in message news:mailman.26.1114796076.62257.rec.food.sourdoug ... > HUTCHNDI wrote: > > > Yes Dick you do make very good looking white bread, unfortunately we > (me and > the Mrs) do not care for white bread very much. Sourdough > white bread is > definately miles ahead of any store bought white bread, > even the sourdough > white bread I bake is pretty tasty, but to us it is > still white bread, and I > would much prefer to eat imperfectly baked > bread with all the stuff I like > in it than perfect white bread. I > don't know what your level of expertise as a baker is, so I'll apologize > up front if this is pointed at the wrong person. I strongly suggest to > beginning bakers, and even beginning sourdough bakers, that they start > with white breads. Why? They're easier. It lets you get a feel for how > the dough should feel, how it handles, and so forth. Once you have that > down, make some mixed breads, part white, parth whole wheat. And then > move on from there. "Breads from Laurel's Kitchen" is an excellent book > on whole grain breads, as is Beatrice Ojakangas' "Great Whole Grain > Breads". However, neither of these otherwise fine bakers have a good > handle on sourdough. Some people like other books, but I haven't gotten > to them yet. Both books are usually available as used books on half.com > for very reasonable prices. > But I will say that the fridge delay added > flavor that was nice anyways, I wouldnt mind keeping > that step once I > get this crust bubble problem solved. Having been there, overproofing > and too high a level of hydration are key issues. You could also cut > back on starter. Mike > > Mike you are most right I am sure, And for the most part all of my first bread was white, and at my level I should probably be still baking all white, but I got far enough where I could at least bake something edible with a bit more good stuff added to the white, and we are enjoying the eating part of it at least too much to go back to all white. I occasionally do go back to it, and when I do I try to learn as much as possible. If my plan is to pretty much always bake with a somewhat more non white flour mix, why wouldn't it make sense too stick with it? hutchndi |
"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message = news:Lltce.71$%44.5@lakeread06... > we do not care for white bread very much.=20 Sorry to have bothered you with all of that useless advice. : | > I may have to change in learning to use loafpans too... =20 Loaf pans are tough! : | > Oh yes, I will try to get my postings a notch closer to "not pathetic" = in > the future. If they are pathetic enough, you get lots of sympathy and = commisseration. "HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message=20 news:chsce.61$%44.29@lakeread06... > I dont actually have a digital camera, I had to use my cheapo $10.00 = webcam > and take a still shot. In many, if not most cases, webcams can be focused (but it takes hooking up and using the CRT [or LCD or whatever} screen as a viewer). See = these sequences made with webcams (Intel PC Cameras for all of these, I = think): http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/jo...5Fdetails.html http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/ca...isanalLoaf.htm http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/album1.html Colors really suck, but not all blur. --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message = news:Lltce.71$%44.5@lakeread06... > we do not care for white bread very much.=20 Sorry to have bothered you with all of that useless advice. : | > I may have to change in learning to use loafpans too... =20 Loaf pans are tough! : | > Oh yes, I will try to get my postings a notch closer to "not pathetic" = in > the future. If they are pathetic enough, you get lots of sympathy and = commisseration. "HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message=20 news:chsce.61$%44.29@lakeread06... > I dont actually have a digital camera, I had to use my cheapo $10.00 = webcam > and take a still shot. In many, if not most cases, webcams can be focused (but it takes hooking up and using the CRT [or LCD or whatever} screen as a viewer). See = these sequences made with webcams (Intel PC Cameras for all of these, I = think): http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/jo...5Fdetails.html http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/ca...isanalLoaf.htm http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/album1.html Colors really suck, but not all blur. --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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