Hey ho.

I've been trying to kick off my own starter using the standard flour
plus water plus feedings method. The past couple of days, when I've gone
to feed it, I've noticed a very strong smell of acetone.

Feeding the starter today produced a reasonable supply of bubbles on the
surface in fairly short order, but I'm still concerned -- is that smell
normal? Or is it an indication that the starter has been spoilt, and
should be thrown away and I need to start from scratch?

I've noted a few comments in the sourdough FAQs that I need to deal with
(in terms of feeding and suchlike), but I doubt they're of enough
significance to change the answers to the above questions.
(Specifically: tap water that hasn't been filtered or allowed to sit;
and using a metal rather than wooden spoon during feeding).

If all else fails, does anybody know of a good source for starters in
Melbourne, Australia? Sourdough International seems to be a little on
the steep side.

Many thanks for all suggestions.

--
My Usenet From: address now expires after two weeks. If you email me, and
the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@" to "usenet".

Stuart Lamble wrote:
> I've been trying to kick off my own starter using the standard flour
> plus water plus feedings method. The past couple of days, when I've gone
> to feed it, I've noticed a very strong smell of acetone.
>
> Feeding the starter today produced a reasonable supply of bubbles on the
> surface in fairly short order, but I'm still concerned -- is that smell
> normal? Or is it an indication that the starter has been spoilt, and
> should be thrown away and I need to start from scratch?

AFAIK, as long as something is alive and producing bubbles some time
after a feeding, things are more or less OK. I would only consider such
a starter spoilt if it had developed a persistent mould.

In my experience, acetone smell is fairly normal for a new starter, but
it often indicates a feeding schedule that is too "slow". You haven't
said how often you feed the starter, the ratio of old starter and new
flour + water, for how long this has been going on, or at what
temperature you're keeping the beasties, but if you're keeping it at
room temperature or above, one feeding per day may just not be enough.

> If all else fails, does anybody know of a good source for starters in
> Melbourne, Australia? Sourdough International seems to be a little on
> the steep side.

Carl's Friends? There's bound to be a Carl's Friend somewhere in eastern
Australia who can send you some of Carl's Oregon Trail starter, which is
said to be fairly reliable, for a nominal fee.

Greetings,
Gudy

On 2005-01-27, Gudy > wrote:
> Stuart Lamble wrote:
>> Feeding the starter today produced a reasonable supply of bubbles on the
>> surface in fairly short order, but I'm still concerned -- is that smell
>> normal? Or is it an indication that the starter has been spoilt, and
>> should be thrown away and I need to start from scratch?
[...]
> In my experience, acetone smell is fairly normal for a new starter, but
> it often indicates a feeding schedule that is too "slow". You haven't
> said how often you feed the starter, the ratio of old starter and new
> flour + water, for how long this has been going on, or at what
> temperature you're keeping the beasties, but if you're keeping it at
> room temperature or above, one feeding per day may just not be enough.

Room temperature (currently around 30 degrees [Celcius]; the weather in
Melbourne's pretty warm at the moment, and the aircon in my place is
broken), with one feeding a day. Doing more than one feeding a day is a
little problematic at the moment, mostly because I actually haven't
finished moving in to the place where I'm doing this (and doing it where
I currently am has other difficulties).

If I keep up at one feeding a day during the week, two during weekends,
I assume that there's not likely to be a major problem down the road? I
won't be using the starter for actually baking bread until after I've
moved in, and I can delay the first bake indefinitely, so there's no
issue there; I'd just like to be baking sooner rather than later, is all


Thanks for the reply. At least it says that I'm roughly on the right
track, which is good to know.

--
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the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@" to "usenet".

Stuart Lamble wrote:
> On 2005-01-27, Gudy > wrote:
>>[...] if you're keeping it at
>>room temperature or above, one feeding per day may just not be enough.
>
> Room temperature (currently around 30 degrees [Celcius]; the weather
> in Melbourne's pretty warm at the moment, and the aircon in my place
> is broken), with one feeding a day. Doing more than one feeding a day
> is a little problematic at the moment, mostly because I actually
> haven't finished moving in to the place where I'm doing this (and
> doing it where I currently am has other difficulties).

30°C is too warm for feeding only once a day, so you'll probably have to
live with that acetone smell for a while unless you can keep the starter
at a somewhat cooler place (e.g. basement or fridge). If your culture
has stabilized enough, you might consider raising the flour vs. starter
ratio for feeding, so the sourdough culture has more nutrients to
consume during a hot day of non-stop go-forth-and-multiply. (I'm using
roughly a 1:4 ratio of starter vs. flour+water for keeping my starter
alive for a two week hibernation in the fridge. This has worked reliably
for more than a year now.)

> If I keep up at one feeding a day during the week, two during
> weekends, I assume that there's not likely to be a major problem down
> the road?

Unlikely. You'll have to throw away quite a bit of starter over time,
but other than that I don't see a problem.

> Thanks for the reply. At least it says that I'm roughly on the right
> track, which is good to know.

You're welcome.

Greetings,
Gudy

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:54:54 GMT, Stuart Lamble
> wrote:

>If all else fails, does anybody know of a good source for starters in
>Melbourne, Australia? Sourdough International seems to be a little on
>the steep side.

Hi Stuart,

If you email me your mailing address I would be happy to
send you the Poilne starter that I have used happily for
years.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Stuart Lamble wrote:

> I've been trying to kick off my own starter using the standard flour
> plus water plus feedings method. The past couple of days, when I've gone
> to feed it, I've noticed a very strong smell of acetone.

My experience with starters suggests that when a starter starts smelling
of acetone, you're getting into trouble. It seems to happen when the
starter learns how to break down proteins and feed on them, rather than
on starches or sugars. This leads to startes that break down gluten,
and that means you don't have a very cohesive loaf of bread.

A number of people suggest that when a starter learns that trick, it's
best to pitch it and start over.

The starter learns that trick when it's underfed.

At room temperature, two feedings a day are the bare minimum.

> Feeding the starter today produced a reasonable supply of bubbles on the
> surface in fairly short order, but I'm still concerned -- is that smell
> normal? Or is it an indication that the starter has been spoilt, and
> should be thrown away and I need to start from scratch?

It's not spoiled in the sense that it is dangerous, but it may not be a
very good starter for you.

In your shoes, I'd either feed it and refrigerate it until, or pitch it
and start over when, you have the ability to feed it two or three times
a day.


> I've noted a few comments in the sourdough FAQs that I need to deal with
> (in terms of feeding and suchlike), but I doubt they're of enough
> significance to change the answers to the above questions.
> (Specifically: tap water that hasn't been filtered or allowed to sit;
> and using a metal rather than wooden spoon during feeding).

A lot of the comments in the FAQ are what you might call old-husband
tales. The goal of the FAQ keepers seems to be to preserve all the
sourdough lore, even if some of it is not currently popular.

I use straight tap water all the time, no filtration, no sitting, no
boiling and cooling. My starters are all happy. If you can drink the
water, it's probably OK for a starter.

As to the metal spoon or fork thing, that's totally bogus. If you stir
it with a metal spoon, the contact period is so short that no ill
effects will occur. If you feed your starter and keep it in a base
metal container, you can get into trouble. The acidity of the starter
can dissolve the metal, and that can introduce off-tastes. If you use
stainless steel, there's no problem. The issue here is the length of
exposure. A quick stir isn't a problem. A long term contact is a
potential problem.

> If all else fails, does anybody know of a good source for starters in
> Melbourne, Australia? Sourdough International seems to be a little on
> the steep side.

Actually, considering a starter, if properly maintained, will last
longer than a lifetime, it's not that unreasonable a fee. However, if
you treat it the way you're treating your current starter, you won't be
happy with their starters either.

Good luck,
Mike

--
Mike Avery
ICQ: 16241692
AOL IM: MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0280

* Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way *

I'm a newbie too, and tried to get my own starter going also, and I just
want to say, find somewhere to get a little starter from, it will save you
allot of aggravation. You may have better luck than I, but my starter
smelled like latex paint, barely made my bread rise, and didn't add any
flavor worth the effort. After a friend sent me a bit of established
starter, I immediately started baking bread, instead of working on a
science project.

Good Luck, Hutchndi

"Stuart Lamble" > wrote in message
...
> Hey ho.
>
> I've been trying to kick off my own starter using the standard flour
> plus water plus feedings method. The past couple of days, when I've gone
> to feed it, I've noticed a very strong smell of acetone.
>
> Feeding the starter today produced a reasonable supply of bubbles on the
> surface in fairly short order, but I'm still concerned -- is that smell
> normal? Or is it an indication that the starter has been spoilt, and
> should be thrown away and I need to start from scratch?
>
> I've noted a few comments in the sourdough FAQs that I need to deal with
> (in terms of feeding and suchlike), but I doubt they're of enough
> significance to change the answers to the above questions.
> (Specifically: tap water that hasn't been filtered or allowed to sit;
> and using a metal rather than wooden spoon during feeding).
>
> If all else fails, does anybody know of a good source for starters in
> Melbourne, Australia? Sourdough International seems to be a little on
> the steep side.
>
> Many thanks for all suggestions.
>
> --
> My Usenet From: address now expires after two weeks. If you email me, and
> the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@" to "usenet".

Stuart Lamble wrote:

> If I keep up at one feeding a day during the week, two during weekends,
> I assume that there's not likely to be a major problem down the road? I
> won't be using the starter for actually baking bread until after I've
> moved in,

Why don't you dry a bit and revive it when you have the time to deal
with it?

B/

On 2005-01-27, Kenneth > wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:54:54 GMT, Stuart Lamble
> wrote:
>
>>If all else fails, does anybody know of a good source for starters in
>>Melbourne, Australia? Sourdough International seems to be a little on
>>the steep side.
>
> Hi Stuart,
>
> If you email me your mailing address I would be happy to
> send you the Poilne starter that I have used happily for
> years.

I appreciate the offer; I'll take you up on it once I've moved into my
new place (hopefully no more than a couple of weeks away).

As to the other replies to date, it's greatly appreciated. If I'd known
before I started that this thing wanted feeding twice a day or more, I
would've left off until I could do that reliably. Oh, well, live and
learn. Looks like I'll be turfing the slops I have at the moment and
restarting with Kenneth's kind offer.

But hey, it's all good, and I've learnt a bit from the experience.
Looking forward to getting into the actual baking.

Thanks once again,

Stuart.

--
My Usenet From: address now expires after two weeks. If you email me, and
the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@" to "usenet".

Mike, wouldn't you think that inoculation size, flour multiplication
factor or something like that would play into this as well?

If you double it, it's one thing, if you quadruple it, you should have
more time to goof off, I would think. One might get differnt results,
but that could be compensated for - perhaps.

Mike Avery wrote:

> [...]
>
> At room temperature, two feedings a day are the bare minimum.
>

Samartha wrote:
> Mike, wouldn't you think that inoculation size, flour multiplication
> factor or something like that would play into this as well?
>
> If you double it, it's one thing, if you quadruple it, you should have
> more time to goof off, I would think. One might get differnt results,
> but that could be compensated for - perhaps.

You'd think so, but I find when I do larger feedings, the starter just
goes through it proportionally more quickly. If you quadruple instead
of doubling, you can't do one feeding a day. Is there a magic number,
8x, 16x, or something? Maybe.

A number of people I know have wanted to go to one feeding a day, but it
hasn't worked out well for any of them. As a point of reference, they
were trying to use their starters daily in a bakery, not establish a
starter or use a starter from a fridge.

Mike

--
Mike Avery
ICQ: 16241692
AOL IM: MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0280

* Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way *

Mike Avery wrote:

> Samartha wrote:
>
>> Mike, wouldn't you think that inoculation size, flour multiplication
>> factor or something like that would play into this as well?
>>
>> If you double it, it's one thing, if you quadruple it, you should
>> have more time to goof off, I would think. One might get differnt
>> results, but that could be compensated for - perhaps.
>
>
> You'd think so, but I find when I do larger feedings, the starter just
> goes through it proportionally more quickly. If you quadruple instead
> of doubling, you can't do one feeding a day. Is there a magic number,
> 8x, 16x, or something? Maybe.
>
> A number of people I know have wanted to go to one feeding a day, but
> it hasn't worked out well for any of them. As a point of reference,
> they were trying to use their starters daily in a bakery, not
> establish a starter or use a starter from a fridge.
>
> Mike
>
I am sure there is something to the faster rate when there is a lower
inoculation. But... seeing a 24 hour fermentation time with a factor
13, a lower temp with a lower hydration in the DM-3 routine and the
receipe pasted below and posted on Dec, 4 '04 also with a 24 hour
fermentation and pretty stiff producing something absolutely edible, I
would think it could be manageable - that's what I meant with
"compensating". Maybe adding a short refresh of a couple of hours to
get it in a decent shape again.

Isn't there also this "keep your starter as a ball in flour - it keeps
better"-something floating around somewhere?

In the original poster's situation with being around 30 C and no
possibility for fridge access and no baking possibility coming up soon,
I'd put a nut size stiff starter ball in a flour cup, half it every
evening, knead it up really dry with some flour and water and put it
back in the flour cup and not worry about it until I have a fridge
and/or can bake. Case closed. I am sure there is nicer stuff to do when
it's that warm than worrying about a starter.

Samartha

-----
A rye bread (2 loaves)


Sourdough:


- 12g (.4 oz) mature Levain, stiff (i.e. white sourdough at least 8
hours old)
- 200g (7 oz) bread flour
- 100 g (3.5 oz) water
- large pinch of salt


Let sit for 24 hours at 21°C (70°F)


Dough:
- 270g (9.5 oz) sourdough from above
- 1kg (2 lb 3.3 oz) bread flour
- 360g (12.7 oz) rye flour
- 35g (1.2 oz) salt
- 730g (25.8 oz) water


Mix for about 6 minutes. The dough will be very firm. Let rest for
about 4 hours at room temperature shape into loaves. Place into
bannetons. Final fermentation: 15 - 20 hours. Speed of fermentation
will depend on room temperature. 25°C (77°F) is recommended and should
yield a nice loaf after 20 hours.
Bake for 50-60 minutes / 230°C (346°F) / with steam


Variation: Use whole-rye flour and whole-wheat flour. Adjust proofing
time, if necessary.


Regards,
Konny

Samartha forgot:

to write that using full grain flour - preferrable rye; but FG wheat ok
as well - could possibly take the edge off that repulsive smell and
make it more interesting.

S.

>
> In the original poster's situation with being around 30 C and no
> possibility for fridge access and no baking possibility coming up
> soon, I'd put a nut size stiff starter ball in a flour cup, half it
> every evening, knead it up really dry with some flour and water and
> put it back in the flour cup and not worry about it until I have a
> fridge and/or can bake. Case closed. I am sure there is nicer stuff to
> do when it's that warm than worrying about a starter.
>
> Samartha

"Mike Avery" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.32.1106884310.263.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com...

> A number of people I know have wanted to go to one feeding a day, but =
it=20
> hasn't worked out well for any of them.

Maybe you could tell them about temperature dependence. Some =
temperature
between 50 and 60 degr. F. should be good for 1 daily feeding. See the =
plot at
http://www.prettycolors.com/bread_cu...eastgrowth.jpg which is derived =
from
some of Gaenzle's data.

Well, that is an unusual temperature. One would need a constant =
temperature=20
device at that temperature. Notwithstanding the excellent ideas here =
for=20
temperature controllers, I am looking even further to =
www.rube-goldberg.com=20
for inspiration.

--
DickA

Samartha wrote:

> I am sure there is something to the faster rate when there is a lower
> inoculation. But... seeing a 24 hour fermentation time with a factor
> 13, a lower temp with a lower hydration in the DM-3 routine and the
> receipe pasted below and posted on Dec, 4 '04 also with a 24 hour
> fermentation and pretty stiff producing something absolutely edible, I
> would think it could be manageable - that's what I meant with
> "compensating". Maybe adding a short refresh of a couple of hours to
> get it in a decent shape again.

NOW I remember - a friend uses a relatively stiff starter because,
"things don't happen as quickly". I have been keeping my refridgerated
master starter at about 50% hdration instead of 100%. 6 months and no
hooch. And quick starts on blobs taken from it.

So, a lower hydration/stiffer starter might be an answer...

> Isn't there also this "keep your starter as a ball in flour - it keeps
> better"-something floating around somewhere?

I think the old settlers in the USA did that....

Mike

--
Mike Avery
ICQ: 16241692
AOL IM: MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0280

* Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way *

Samartha wrote:

> I am sure there is something to the faster rate when there is a lower
> inoculation. But... seeing a 24 hour fermentation time with a factor
> 13, a lower temp with a lower hydration in the DM-3 routine and the
> receipe pasted below and posted on Dec, 4 '04 also with a 24 hour
> fermentation and pretty stiff producing something absolutely edible, I
> would think it could be manageable - that's what I meant with
> "compensating". Maybe adding a short refresh of a couple of hours to
> get it in a decent shape again.

NOW I remember - a friend uses a relatively stiff starter because,
"things don't happen as quickly". I have been keeping my refridgerated
master starter at about 50% hdration instead of 100%. 6 months and no
hooch. And quick starts on blobs taken from it.

So, a lower hydration/stiffer starter might be an answer...

> Isn't there also this "keep your starter as a ball in flour - it keeps
> better"-something floating around somewhere?

I think the old settlers in the USA did that....

Mike

--
Mike Avery
ICQ: 16241692
AOL IM: MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0280

* Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way *

Mike Avery wrote:

> Samartha wrote:

>> Isn't there also this "keep your starter as a ball in flour - it keeps
>> better"-something floating around somewhere?
>
> I think the old settlers in the USA did that....

Conestoga Wagon. Cattle drive, chuck wagon.

B/

"Stuart Lamble" > wrote in message
...
> Hey ho.
>
> I've been trying to kick off my own starter using the standard flour
> plus water plus feedings method. The past couple of days, when I've gone
> to feed it, I've noticed a very strong smell of acetone.
>
> Feeding the starter today produced a reasonable supply of bubbles on the
> surface in fairly short order, but I'm still concerned -- is that smell
> normal? Or is it an indication that the starter has been spoilt, and
> should be thrown away and I need to start from scratch?
>
> I've noted a few comments in the sourdough FAQs that I need to deal with
> (in terms of feeding and suchlike), but I doubt they're of enough
> significance to change the answers to the above questions.
> (Specifically: tap water that hasn't been filtered or allowed to sit;
> and using a metal rather than wooden spoon during feeding).
>
> If all else fails, does anybody know of a good source for starters in
> Melbourne, Australia? Sourdough International seems to be a little on
> the steep side.
>
> Many thanks for all suggestions.
>
> --
> My Usenet From: address now expires after two weeks. If you email me, and
> the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@" to "usenet".

I don't think it is as complex as people make it out to be. My seasoned
starters usually smell a little like alcohol. The fermentation process
produces alcohol so that's pretty normal. Perhaps that is what you are
smelling.

As long as the sponge isn't discolored or smelling really awful, I suspect
it is fine and just needs time to mature. My starters have never really
made very good bread until they are a couple of weeks old or older. Don't
forget, natural yeasts are very slow acting compared to baker's yeast. 18
hour fermentations are normal for me. Sourdough takes some planning and
patience.

Fred
Foodie Forums
http://www.foodieforums.com

I have a friend who is a winemaker. He says that the acetone (not just
acetone smell but actual acetone) is produced by a particular strain of
yeast. Unless your idea of gastronomic delight is sipping nail polish
remover, run, do not walk, to your nearest trash container and throw that
stuff away. You can refresh it all day long if you like, as long as that
yeast strain dominates the starter, acetone is what you'll end up with.
Seriously folks, the human body does not metabolize acetone very well; it is
poisonous.

Sam
Just because you haven't seen me posting before,
it doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about.

"Stuart Lamble" > wrote in message
...
> Hey ho.
>
> I've been trying to kick off my own starter using the standard flour
> plus water plus feedings method. The past couple of days, when I've gone
> to feed it, I've noticed a very strong smell of acetone.
>
> Feeding the starter today produced a reasonable supply of bubbles on the
> surface in fairly short order, but I'm still concerned -- is that smell
> normal? Or is it an indication that the starter has been spoilt, and
> should be thrown away and I need to start from scratch?
>
> I've noted a few comments in the sourdough FAQs that I need to deal with
> (in terms of feeding and suchlike), but I doubt they're of enough
> significance to change the answers to the above questions.
> (Specifically: tap water that hasn't been filtered or allowed to sit;
> and using a metal rather than wooden spoon during feeding).
>
> If all else fails, does anybody know of a good source for starters in
> Melbourne, Australia? Sourdough International seems to be a little on
> the steep side.
>
> Many thanks for all suggestions.
>
> --
> My Usenet From: address now expires after two weeks. If you email me, and
> the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@" to "usenet".

On 2005-02-07, Sam Orez > wrote:
> I have a friend who is a winemaker. He says that the acetone (not just
> acetone smell but actual acetone) is produced by a particular strain of
> yeast. Unless your idea of gastronomic delight is sipping nail polish
> remover, run, do not walk, to your nearest trash container and throw that
> stuff away. You can refresh it all day long if you like, as long as that
> yeast strain dominates the starter, acetone is what you'll end up with.

Already done. I'll try again when I actually move into the place (soon.
Very soon now.)

> Seriously folks, the human body does not metabolize acetone very well; it is
> poisonous.

Quite. Which is why the odour is a definite cause for concern when I
find it coming from what should be a sourdough starter.

--
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the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@" to "usenet".