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| Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
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First Attempt
Hi All,
I made my first sourdough "loaf" (HAH!) over the weekend. I used Carl's starter, grown up from a small amount of dry granules to 2 quart jars full that were bubbling away (overflowed once). I hate to say it, but I made this first loaf in my bread machine. I didn't know it beforehand, but the machine kneads quite a few times, and that caused the dense loaf. After the 4th or 5th kneading, the loaf didn't rise much... I used 1.25 cups starter and 2.25 cups unbleached white flour. Put it in the machine, let it knead for about 5 minutes, and put the machine pan in my 85 degree proofing box for 8 hours. It easily doubled in size. I then added water, salt, honey and olive oil. Put it back in the machine and let it run on the whole wheat setting, which takes 4 hours. The crumb was dense, heavy, fine-textured and chewy with a thick, brown, crispy crust (but not browned on top). BUT - it wasn't sour at all! It had a pretty good flavor but no sour. It's like a "rustic" white bread (if "rustic" means "brick"). Any ideas on what happened to the sour? TIA, Tim Walters |
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> wrote in message = news:mailman.21.1102942616.221.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com > ... I made this first loaf in my bread machine...=20 > ... After the 4th or 5th kneading, the loaf didn't rise much...=20 > ... added water, salt, honey and olive oil ...=20 > ... it wasn't sour at all!...=20 > ... It's like a "rustic" white bread (if "rustic" means "brick").=20 > Any ideas on what happened to the sour? You're kidding -- you're putting us on, right? > ... I used Carl's starter ... Must be something wrong with the starter. Maybe you should try a rye starter or a grape starter or something?=20 : | --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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> wrote in message = news:mailman.21.1102942616.221.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com > ... I made this first loaf in my bread machine...=20 > ... After the 4th or 5th kneading, the loaf didn't rise much...=20 > ... added water, salt, honey and olive oil ...=20 > ... it wasn't sour at all!...=20 > ... It's like a "rustic" white bread (if "rustic" means "brick").=20 > Any ideas on what happened to the sour? You're kidding -- you're putting us on, right? > ... I used Carl's starter ... Must be something wrong with the starter. Maybe you should try a rye starter or a grape starter or something?=20 : | --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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Hi Dick,
> You're kidding -- you're putting us on, right? Ahhhhh, well no.... Apparently, from your response, I really screwed up. What part of what I did was the goof? After looking back at my original post, I forgot to mention that I also added more flour. My experience up to this point has been bread machine. I knew I had to add salt and more flour, but I thought I'd add the other stuff so maybe the wife would like it a little more. > Must be something wrong with the starter. Maybe you should try a rye starter or a grape starter or something? I'm pretty sure the starter is okay. I -DO- know enough about starters not to go the grape route... The main reason for the steps I took was reading a book co-authored by Ed Wood, "World Sourdoughs From Your Bread Machine". This was a recipe and baking instructions from that book. I liked the idea of letting the machine do the kneading. The 8-hour rise was supposed to have let the sour develop. The second rise in the machine after adding more flour and water was supposed to have taken care of the leavening. The extra kneading really shot that down. So, I'm really serious about making sourdough. If you could offer some suggestions, I'd really appreciate it! TIA, Tim |
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> wrote in message = news:mailman.22.1102965713.221.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com > ... The main reason for the steps I took was reading a book = co-authored by=20 > Ed Wood, "World Sourdoughs From Your Bread Machine".=20 It is safe to say, I think, that Dr. Wood has disowned that book. The = claim in general seems to be that his co-author made him do bad things. > So, I'm really serious about making sourdough. If you could offer some = suggestions,=20 > I'd really appreciate it! The first suggestion would be to forget the bread machine, as far as = making=20 sourdough is concerned. It is certainly true that sourdough bread can = be made in=20 bread machines, and it is also true that dimes can be stood on end. But = I don't think=20 it is worth the trouble. Secondly, read the FAQs. I am partial to the way I do it, which is = described at www.carlsfriends.org on the photo page in a link which contains the word = "billowy". Samartha wants you to make traditional rye bread, so you might look at = his stuff while you are there, if you do not mind some real challenges. Look also at = the other sites mentioned in the link below. You have to be very careful about taking advice from people who write = books! --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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> wrote in message = news:mailman.22.1102965713.221.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com > ... The main reason for the steps I took was reading a book = co-authored by=20 > Ed Wood, "World Sourdoughs From Your Bread Machine".=20 It is safe to say, I think, that Dr. Wood has disowned that book. The = claim in general seems to be that his co-author made him do bad things. > So, I'm really serious about making sourdough. If you could offer some = suggestions,=20 > I'd really appreciate it! The first suggestion would be to forget the bread machine, as far as = making=20 sourdough is concerned. It is certainly true that sourdough bread can = be made in=20 bread machines, and it is also true that dimes can be stood on end. But = I don't think=20 it is worth the trouble. Secondly, read the FAQs. I am partial to the way I do it, which is = described at www.carlsfriends.org on the photo page in a link which contains the word = "billowy". Samartha wants you to make traditional rye bread, so you might look at = his stuff while you are there, if you do not mind some real challenges. Look also at = the other sites mentioned in the link below. You have to be very careful about taking advice from people who write = books! --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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Hi Dick,
Thanks for the tips! I also read "Classic Sourdoughs" as well as Mike Avery's "Introduction to Sourdough". You'd think that with all that info, I wouldn't have screwed up so bad! > Dr. Wood has disowned that book I was "a-scared" of that... The other books seemed a lot better, but I was in a hurry to make some bread! ;-) I have seen your instructions before, as well as Samartha's. I guess I'll take "y'alls" advice instead of the book's. Thanks again, Tim |
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Hi Dick,
Thanks for the tips! I also read "Classic Sourdoughs" as well as Mike Avery's "Introduction to Sourdough". You'd think that with all that info, I wouldn't have screwed up so bad! > Dr. Wood has disowned that book I was "a-scared" of that... The other books seemed a lot better, but I was in a hurry to make some bread! ;-) I have seen your instructions before, as well as Samartha's. I guess I'll take "y'alls" advice instead of the book's. Thanks again, Tim |
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Tim, I'd advise going back to square 1. if you want sour definately
leave out the honey and I'd also postpone adding any olive oil at this stage. Just go with the basics - culture, flour, water, salt. Bake a few loaves (without the bread machine - use that later) and get a feel for it. Every loaf is an adventure... |
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Tim, I'd advise going back to square 1. if you want sour definately
leave out the honey and I'd also postpone adding any olive oil at this stage. Just go with the basics - culture, flour, water, salt. Bake a few loaves (without the bread machine - use that later) and get a feel for it. Every loaf is an adventure... |
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On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:50:05 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote: I'm noticing the same thing with the Carl's starter I got a week or so ago. I'm getting good rise, but the bread isn't sour. > > wrote in message news:mailman.21.1102942616.221.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com > >> ... I made this first loaf in my bread machine... >> ... After the 4th or 5th kneading, the loaf didn't rise much... >> ... added water, salt, honey and olive oil ... >> ... it wasn't sour at all!... >> ... It's like a "rustic" white bread (if "rustic" means "brick"). >> Any ideas on what happened to the sour? > >You're kidding -- you're putting us on, right? > >> ... I used Carl's starter ... > >Must be something wrong with the starter. Maybe you >should try a rye starter or a grape starter or something? > : | |
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"The Ghost of Thomas Jefferson" > wrote in message = ... : > I'm noticing the same thing with the Carl's starter I got a week or so > ago. I'm getting good rise, but the bread isn't sour. Well, you're lucky you got a rise. Are you making it in a bread machine like that other knucklehead? Dunno what to say about ghosts. We have some faeries here, and, some say, a troll or two, and a telepathic cat. So why not a Jeffersonian = spook? BillyFish made some kind of sourdough in his bread machine. He = recommended Krusteaz sourdough bread mix. Samartha says that you can get sour bread with Carl's. Instructions as = well as photos are provided (but nothing about bread machines): http://samartha.net/images/SD/BYDATE...-26/index.html --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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*Dick* wrote:
Are you making it in a bread machine like that other knucklehead? Dunno what to say about ghosts. We have some faeries here, and, some say, a troll or two, and a telepathic cat. So why not a Jeffersonian spook? BillyFish made some kind of sourdough in his bread machine. He recommended Krusteaz sourdough bread mix. Hey *Dick*, If you've got all the answers and make perfect sourdough every time, what's the point of showing up on this newsgroup? Is it just so you can pontificate and bad-mouth everyone else? Out of the 9 sentences you wrote in response to that last post, only 2 of them had anything to do with it. The other 7 seemed to be designed to **** people off. Good job. Tim Walters |
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> wrote in message = news:mailman.24.1103289827.221.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com *Dick* wrote: > what's the point of showing up on this newsgroup? Is it just so you = can pontificate=20 > and bad-mouth everyone else? *Everyone* is unfair to say. Anyway, some balance against the usual = goodmouthing=20 should be well received. > Out of the 9 sentences you wrote in response to that last post, only 2 = of them had=20 > anything to do with it.=20 Two out of nine is pretty good is this league. (Consider, for instance, = the abundance of full-thread requotes over single-line comments.) Also, there is extra = credit for lines=20 which contain cogent links.=20 > The other 7 seemed to be designed to **** people off. To politely chide persons who post on certain tiresome subjects. > Good job. One does one's best. -- *Dick* (Dick Adams) <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html Newcomer suggestions at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/newcomertips.html Draft Noobie guide at http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F.../noobiness.txt |
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> wrote in message = news:mailman.24.1103289827.221.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com *Dick* wrote: > what's the point of showing up on this newsgroup? Is it just so you = can pontificate=20 > and bad-mouth everyone else? *Everyone* is unfair to say. Anyway, some balance against the usual = goodmouthing=20 should be well received. > Out of the 9 sentences you wrote in response to that last post, only 2 = of them had=20 > anything to do with it.=20 Two out of nine is pretty good is this league. (Consider, for instance, = the abundance of full-thread requotes over single-line comments.) Also, there is extra = credit for lines=20 which contain cogent links.=20 > The other 7 seemed to be designed to **** people off. To politely chide persons who post on certain tiresome subjects. > Good job. One does one's best. -- *Dick* (Dick Adams) <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html Newcomer suggestions at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/newcomertips.html Draft Noobie guide at http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F.../noobiness.txt |
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On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 04:30:00 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote: > >"The Ghost of Thomas Jefferson" > wrote in message ... >: >> I'm noticing the same thing with the Carl's starter I got a week or so >> ago. I'm getting good rise, but the bread isn't sour. > >Well, you're lucky you got a rise. Are you making it in a bread machine >like that other knucklehead? I am using a bread machine to do the initial kneading. I got an excellent rise. The loaf was beautiful, had excellent crumb and had a golden crust. I've used the same process using the Goldrush starter sold at Earthfare. That starter made a very sour tasting loaf, but the rise was not nearly as robust as the Carl's. I'm using Carl's again tonight to make to loaves of french bread. > >Dunno what to say about ghosts. We have some faeries here, and, some >say, a troll or two, and a telepathic cat. So why not a Jeffersonian spook? > >BillyFish made some kind of sourdough in his bread machine. He recommended >Krusteaz sourdough bread mix. > >Samartha says that you can get sour bread with Carl's. Instructions as well >as photos are provided (but nothing about bread machines): >http://samartha.net/images/SD/BYDATE...-26/index.html |
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On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 04:30:00 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote: > >"The Ghost of Thomas Jefferson" > wrote in message ... >: >> I'm noticing the same thing with the Carl's starter I got a week or so >> ago. I'm getting good rise, but the bread isn't sour. > >Well, you're lucky you got a rise. Are you making it in a bread machine >like that other knucklehead? I am using a bread machine to do the initial kneading. I got an excellent rise. The loaf was beautiful, had excellent crumb and had a golden crust. I've used the same process using the Goldrush starter sold at Earthfare. That starter made a very sour tasting loaf, but the rise was not nearly as robust as the Carl's. I'm using Carl's again tonight to make to loaves of french bread. > >Dunno what to say about ghosts. We have some faeries here, and, some >say, a troll or two, and a telepathic cat. So why not a Jeffersonian spook? > >BillyFish made some kind of sourdough in his bread machine. He recommended >Krusteaz sourdough bread mix. > >Samartha says that you can get sour bread with Carl's. Instructions as well >as photos are provided (but nothing about bread machines): >http://samartha.net/images/SD/BYDATE...-26/index.html |
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"The Ghost of Thomas Jefferson" >=20 wrote in message ... > Me thinks his first name is on the money ... "Me thinks"??! Hey, you are really weird, Ghost! "The Ghost of Thomas Jefferson" >=20 wrote in message ... > [ ... ] > I am using a bread machine to do the initial kneading. > I got an excellent rise. The loaf was beautiful, had excellent=20 > crumb and had a golden crust. Lemme guess: Your wife and kids loved it and clamored for more? > I've used the same process using the Goldrush starter sold at > Earthfare. That starter made a very sour tasting loaf, but the rise > was not nearly as robust as the Carl's. I have had good luck with Goldrush, but most people don't like it. You don't know how long it has sat on the shelf before you buy it. Carl's, on the other hand, is refreshed and dried for each distribution. Eventually, there is not much different about reviving an expired=20 starter and starting one of your own. A dried start that revives quickly and vigorously is more apt to be what it is claimed to be than one which does not. -- Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com P.S. The part you have in mind is spelled with a lower case 'd'. |
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"The Ghost of Thomas Jefferson" >=20 wrote in message ... > Me thinks his first name is on the money ... "Me thinks"??! Hey, you are really weird, Ghost! "The Ghost of Thomas Jefferson" >=20 wrote in message ... > [ ... ] > I am using a bread machine to do the initial kneading. > I got an excellent rise. The loaf was beautiful, had excellent=20 > crumb and had a golden crust. Lemme guess: Your wife and kids loved it and clamored for more? > I've used the same process using the Goldrush starter sold at > Earthfare. That starter made a very sour tasting loaf, but the rise > was not nearly as robust as the Carl's. I have had good luck with Goldrush, but most people don't like it. You don't know how long it has sat on the shelf before you buy it. Carl's, on the other hand, is refreshed and dried for each distribution. Eventually, there is not much different about reviving an expired=20 starter and starting one of your own. A dried start that revives quickly and vigorously is more apt to be what it is claimed to be than one which does not. -- Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com P.S. The part you have in mind is spelled with a lower case 'd'. |
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On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 05:05:27 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote: > >"The Ghost of Thomas Jefferson" > >wrote in message ... > >> Me thinks his first name is on the money ... > >"Me thinks"??! Hey, you are really weird, Ghost! I can't compete with you for the weirdness award. Does your posted email address reflect your low self esteem? > >"The Ghost of Thomas Jefferson" > >wrote in message ... > >> [ ... ] >> I am using a bread machine to do the initial kneading. >> I got an excellent rise. The loaf was beautiful, had excellent >> crumb and had a golden crust. > >Lemme guess: Your wife and kids loved it and clamored for more? Sure did. Repeated the same experiment last night. Made 2 bagettes. Bread looks great. I haven't tasted it yet since I made it for tonight's dinner. > >> I've used the same process using the Goldrush starter sold at >> Earthfare. That starter made a very sour tasting loaf, but the rise >> was not nearly as robust as the Carl's. > >I have had good luck with Goldrush, but most people don't like it. >You don't know how long it has sat on the shelf before you buy it. >Carl's, on the other hand, is refreshed and dried for each distribution. > >Eventually, there is not much different about reviving an expired >starter and starting one of your own. A dried start that revives >quickly and vigorously is more apt to be what it is claimed to be >than one which does not. |
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On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 05:05:27 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote: > >"The Ghost of Thomas Jefferson" > >wrote in message ... > >> Me thinks his first name is on the money ... > >"Me thinks"??! Hey, you are really weird, Ghost! I can't compete with you for the weirdness award. Does your posted email address reflect your low self esteem? > >"The Ghost of Thomas Jefferson" > >wrote in message ... > >> [ ... ] >> I am using a bread machine to do the initial kneading. >> I got an excellent rise. The loaf was beautiful, had excellent >> crumb and had a golden crust. > >Lemme guess: Your wife and kids loved it and clamored for more? Sure did. Repeated the same experiment last night. Made 2 bagettes. Bread looks great. I haven't tasted it yet since I made it for tonight's dinner. > >> I've used the same process using the Goldrush starter sold at >> Earthfare. That starter made a very sour tasting loaf, but the rise >> was not nearly as robust as the Carl's. > >I have had good luck with Goldrush, but most people don't like it. >You don't know how long it has sat on the shelf before you buy it. >Carl's, on the other hand, is refreshed and dried for each distribution. > >Eventually, there is not much different about reviving an expired >starter and starting one of your own. A dried start that revives >quickly and vigorously is more apt to be what it is claimed to be >than one which does not. |
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"The Ghost of Thomas Jefferson" > wrote in message = ... > Does your posted email address reflect your low self esteem? It reflects my low esteem for spammers. The coded one below is good, esp. since the dummies can't figure it out. > > Made 2 bagettes. =20 Are they real long, like actual baguettes? Then you could use them for sticks for chasing dogs with. But it is very hard in usual home ovens to make bread sticks long enough for chasing dogs. Throwing is always a possibility. That possibility has been mentioned: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DxiAR7.124213$S93.6278418@e3500-atl= 2.usenetserver.com (but for compact loaves). If your intent is to achieve some semblance of Jeffersonian Grandeur with your strange ID, you should consider losing the bread machine, = since such things reek of plebeianism. Do you see any bread machine here?: http://www.monticello.org/gallery/re...%5Fpre2003.jp= g=20 --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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"The Ghost of Thomas Jefferson" > wrote in message = ... > Does your posted email address reflect your low self esteem? It reflects my low esteem for spammers. The coded one below is good, esp. since the dummies can't figure it out. > > Made 2 bagettes. =20 Are they real long, like actual baguettes? Then you could use them for sticks for chasing dogs with. But it is very hard in usual home ovens to make bread sticks long enough for chasing dogs. Throwing is always a possibility. That possibility has been mentioned: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DxiAR7.124213$S93.6278418@e3500-atl= 2.usenetserver.com (but for compact loaves). If your intent is to achieve some semblance of Jeffersonian Grandeur with your strange ID, you should consider losing the bread machine, = since such things reek of plebeianism. Do you see any bread machine here?: http://www.monticello.org/gallery/re...%5Fpre2003.jp= g=20 --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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