I have a sourdough starter going, initially made from rye flour and
water but now I feed it with AP flour and all the gray rye color is
gone. It smells sour and throws a "hooch", but it never gets frothy
or rises. It does bubble a little, so I know there's yeast in there.
I tried dumping out half of it and feeding every 6 hours this
weekend, but it's still the same.

How can I encourage the yeast to be more assertive? I hate to think
what will happen when I try baking with it and the it gets its first
exposure to salt.

I know it's cheating, but can I make a batch of bread using bakers
yeast, then add some of my starter to sour it? Or will bakers yeast
inhibit the sour bacteria? (I'm not talking about adding yeast to the
starter)

-Bob

On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 13:03:38 -0600, zxcvbob >
wrote:

>I have a sourdough starter going, initially made from rye flour and
>water but now I feed it with AP flour and all the gray rye color is
>gone. It smells sour and throws a "hooch", but it never gets frothy
>or rises. It does bubble a little, so I know there's yeast in there.
> I tried dumping out half of it and feeding every 6 hours this
>weekend, but it's still the same.
Just feed it once a day.
Temperatures select yeast/lactobacilli ratio. What
temperatures are you using ?
Hotter = more acid
Cooler = more yeasty.
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/64/7/2616
>
>How can I encourage the yeast to be more assertive? I hate to think
>what will happen when I try baking with it and the it gets its first
>exposure to salt.
>
>I know it's cheating, but can I make a batch of bread using bakers
>yeast, then add some of my starter to sour it?
Not a good idea. It's not the starter that gives the bread
it's special taste, it's the biological process. And ordinary yeast
will probably kill that.
>Or will bakers yeast
>inhibit the sour bacteria? (I'm not talking about adding yeast to the
>starter)

Shadow wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 13:03:38 -0600, zxcvbob >
> wrote:
>
>> I have a sourdough starter going, initially made from rye flour and
>> water but now I feed it with AP flour and all the gray rye color is
>> gone. It smells sour and throws a "hooch", but it never gets frothy
>> or rises. It does bubble a little, so I know there's yeast in there.
>> I tried dumping out half of it and feeding every 6 hours this
>> weekend, but it's still the same.
> Just feed it once a day.
> Temperatures select yeast/lactobacilli ratio. What
> temperatures are you using ?
> Hotter = more acid
> Cooler = more yeasty.
> http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/64/7/2616
>> How can I encourage the yeast to be more assertive? I hate to think
>> what will happen when I try baking with it and the it gets its first
>> exposure to salt.
>>
>> I know it's cheating, but can I make a batch of bread using bakers
>> yeast, then add some of my starter to sour it?

> Not a good idea. It's not the starter that gives the bread
> it's special taste, it's the biological process. And ordinary yeast
> will probably kill that.

>> Or will bakers yeast
>> inhibit the sour bacteria? (I'm not talking about adding yeast to the
>> starter)
>

I was feeding it once a day, with the starter sitting on the kitchen
counter (kitchen is kind of cool this time of year) and I increased
the feedings thinking that would rejuvenate it.

So I'd be better off feeding it less often and put it someplace
cooler? I can do that. (going to go read your links now)

Thanks,
-Bob

zxcvbob wrote:
> I have a sourdough starter going, initially made from rye flour and
> water but now I feed it with AP flour and all the gray rye color is
> gone. It smells sour and throws a "hooch", but it never gets frothy
> or rises. It does bubble a little, so I know there's yeast in there.
> I tried dumping out half of it and feeding every 6 hours this
> weekend, but it's still the same.
A couple of questions, 'zxcvbob':
1) How soon do you get your hooch, and where is it (top, middle, bottom)?
2) Approximately what temperature does it exerience where you had it in
your kitchen?
3) Does it ever get any sun?
4) What's the approximate hydration of your starter? It should be kind of
like pancake batter. If it's too thin, it'll bubble but won't rise at all.
5) If it's already like pancake batter, try making it a bit stiffer, that
should both slow it down and capture the effects of any yeast-rising
action.

> How can I encourage the yeast to be more assertive? I hate to think
> what will happen when I try baking with it and the it gets its first
> exposure to salt.
Donno...they always did their thing without me having to yell
anything...(:-o)!

> I know it's cheating, but can I make a batch of bread using bakers
> yeast, then add some of my starter to sour it? Or will bakers yeast
> inhibit the sour bacteria? (I'm not talking about adding yeast to the
> starter)
Yes, it's "cheating", but it will work fine. There will of course be some
difference in taste from true sourdough, but it should work fine in a
pinch.

L8r all,
Dusty
--
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual
ignorance." -- Henry Louis Mencken

BakerBoy wrote:
> zxcvbob wrote:
>> I have a sourdough starter going, initially made from rye flour and
>> water but now I feed it with AP flour and all the gray rye color is
>> gone. It smells sour and throws a "hooch", but it never gets frothy
>> or rises. It does bubble a little, so I know there's yeast in there.
>> I tried dumping out half of it and feeding every 6 hours this
>> weekend, but it's still the same.
> A couple of questions, 'zxcvbob':
> 1) How soon do you get your hooch, and where is it (top, middle, bottom)?
> 2) Approximately what temperature does it exerience where you had it in
> your kitchen?
> 3) Does it ever get any sun?
> 4) What's the approximate hydration of your starter? It should be kind of
> like pancake batter. If it's too thin, it'll bubble but won't rise at all.
> 5) If it's already like pancake batter, try making it a bit stiffer, that
> should both slow it down and capture the effects of any yeast-rising
> action.
>
>> How can I encourage the yeast to be more assertive? I hate to think
>> what will happen when I try baking with it and the it gets its first
>> exposure to salt.
> Donno...they always did their thing without me having to yell
> anything...(:-o)!
>
>> I know it's cheating, but can I make a batch of bread using bakers
>> yeast, then add some of my starter to sour it? Or will bakers yeast
>> inhibit the sour bacteria? (I'm not talking about adding yeast to the
>> starter)
> Yes, it's "cheating", but it will work fine. There will of course be some
> difference in taste from true sourdough, but it should work fine in a
> pinch.
>
> L8r all,
> Dusty


Hooch is on top.

It looks like pancake batter. To about 1/2 cup of starter, I add 1/2
of AP flour and 1/2 cup of warm tapwater. Stir it up with a fork,
trying to incorporate a little air, cover it, and sit it on the
countertop in a cool room. No sunlight. I can try feeding it once
with just flour and no water and see what happens.

This is a starter that's been languishing in the back of the fridge
for months and I'm trying to bring it back and actually try it out. I
never did bake with it back when I first started it because it never
got bubbly enough.

BTW, I don't have a covered earthenware "boule" to bake it in. How
about using an old blue cornflower Corningware casserole dish?

-Bob

In article >,
zxcvbob > wrote:

> I have a sourdough starter going, initially made from rye flour and
> water but now I feed it with AP flour and all the gray rye color is
> gone. It smells sour and throws a "hooch", but it never gets frothy
> or rises. It does bubble a little, so I know there's yeast in there.
> I tried dumping out half of it and feeding every 6 hours this
> weekend, but it's still the same.
>
> How can I encourage the yeast to be more assertive? I hate to think
> what will happen when I try baking with it and the it gets its first
> exposure to salt.
>
> I know it's cheating, but can I make a batch of bread using bakers
> yeast, then add some of my starter to sour it? Or will bakers yeast
> inhibit the sour bacteria? (I'm not talking about adding yeast to the
> starter)
>
> -Bob

First of all, if you cheat, my lips are sealed!

I have the same problem. I gave up fighting it. I use YEAST! Note that
most store bought sourdough also uses yeast.

Here is what I do.

I let my sourdough sit out on the counter.I may be days before I use it.
It gets more flavorful with time. It is a covered plastic container.
After I use it I add a cup of warm water and a cup of all purpose flour.

To use the starter, in my bread machine, I stir my starter, and pour it
all into the pan. That leaves the container coated with old starter. I
add the water and flour. The residual starter in the container
inoculates the new starter food.

I then add other ingredients to the pan making adjustments for the water
in the starter.

This way, I get good rise AND good flavor. As for the fundamentalist
zealots, I cite the First Amendment to the Constitution. There is no
established religion.

Bill

--
An old man would be better off never having been born.

"zxcvbob" > wrote in message
...
> BakerBoy wrote:
>> zxcvbob wrote:
>>> I have a sourdough starter going, initially made from rye flour and
>>> water but now I feed it with AP flour and all the gray rye color is
>>> gone. It smells sour and throws a "hooch", but it never gets frothy
>>> or rises. It does bubble a little, so I know there's yeast in there.
>>> I tried dumping out half of it and feeding every 6 hours this
>>> weekend, but it's still the same.
>> A couple of questions, 'zxcvbob':
>> 1) How soon do you get your hooch, and where is it (top, middle,
>> bottom)?
>> 2) Approximately what temperature does it exerience where you had it in
>> your kitchen?
>> 3) Does it ever get any sun?
>> 4) What's the approximate hydration of your starter? It should be kind
>> of like pancake batter. If it's too thin, it'll bubble but won't rise at
>> all.
>> 5) If it's already like pancake batter, try making it a bit stiffer,
>> that should both slow it down and capture the effects of any yeast-rising
>> action.
>>
>>> How can I encourage the yeast to be more assertive? I hate to think
>>> what will happen when I try baking with it and the it gets its first
>>> exposure to salt.
>> Donno...they always did their thing without me having to yell
>> anything...(:-o)!
>>
>>> I know it's cheating, but can I make a batch of bread using bakers
>>> yeast, then add some of my starter to sour it? Or will bakers yeast
>>> inhibit the sour bacteria? (I'm not talking about adding yeast to the
>>> starter)
>> Yes, it's "cheating", but it will work fine. There will of course be
>> some difference in taste from true sourdough, but it should work fine in
>> a pinch.
>>
>> L8r all,
>> Dusty
>
>
> Hooch is on top.
>
> It looks like pancake batter. To about 1/2 cup of starter, I add 1/2 of
> AP flour and 1/2 cup of warm tapwater. Stir it up with a fork, trying to
> incorporate a little air, cover it, and sit it on the countertop in a cool
> room. No sunlight. I can try feeding it once with just flour and no
> water and see what happens.
>
> This is a starter that's been languishing in the back of the fridge for
> months and I'm trying to bring it back and actually try it out. I never
> did bake with it back when I first started it because it never got bubbly
> enough.
>
> BTW, I don't have a covered earthenware "boule" to bake it in. How about
> using an old blue cornflower Corningware casserole dish?
>
> -Bob

I'd pour off the hooch and add fresh water when you refresh. Also, as Dusty
suggested, try a stiffer mix, say, 1/2cup of flour to 1/3 cup water.
Graham

On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 17:14:32 -0700, "graham" > wrote:

>
>"zxcvbob" > wrote in message
...

>> AP flour and 1/2 cup of warm tapwater. Stir it up with a fork, trying to
>> incorporate a little air, cover it, and sit it on the countertop in a cool
>> room. No sunlight. I can try feeding it once with just flour and no
>> water and see what happens.
>>
>> This is a starter that's been languishing in the back of the fridge for
>> months and I'm trying to bring it back and actually try it out. I never
>> did bake with it back when I first started it because it never got bubbly
>> enough.
>>
>> BTW, I don't have a covered earthenware "boule" to bake it in. How about
>> using an old blue cornflower Corningware casserole dish?
I use Teflon bread pans.
>>
>> -Bob
>
>I'd pour off the hooch and add fresh water when you refresh. Also, as Dusty
>suggested, try a stiffer mix, say, 1/2cup of flour to 1/3 cup water.
>Graham
And try and feed it around 27 degrees Celsius.
[]'s

Hello Bob!

zxcvbob wrote:
> BakerBoy wrote:
>> zxcvbob wrote:
....
> Hooch is on top.
Okay, that's good. At least it doesn't sound like it's been contaminated.
You did, however, not tell me the time it took or the temperature where you
usually keep it.

> It looks like pancake batter. To about 1/2 cup of starter, I add 1/2
> of AP flour and 1/2 cup of warm tapwater. Stir it up with a fork,
Your "tapwater" could be problematical if you have "city water". In the US
(since I don't know where in the world you are) that usually means that it
has either chlorine, or worse yet, chloranimines. The chlorine can be
allowed to "air out" and will evaporate in a day or so, the chloranimines
will never go away. So, as your first step, I'd suggest you try some real,
bottled spring water (not the processed "tap" water some places sell as
"drinking water").

Also, I find your 50-50 mix (by volume) a bit too wet--not wrong, mind you,
just a bit wetter than I've found workable. For each cup of water I use
about 1-1/2 cups flour...and you can even go thicker than that. Maybe
trying to thicken it up a bit will yield a better mix leading to better
visual cues as to the progress of your starter.

> trying to incorporate a little air, cover it, and sit it on the
> countertop in a cool room. No sunlight. I can try feeding it once
> with just flour and no water and see what happens.
Yep. Except for the previous note about water, probably a good next step.

> This is a starter that's been languishing in the back of the fridge
> for months and I'm trying to bring it back and actually try it out. I
> never did bake with it back when I first started it because it never
> got bubbly enough.
>
> BTW, I don't have a covered earthenware "boule" to bake it in. How
I don't either.

> about using an old blue cornflower Corningware casserole dish?
Donno...maybe one of the folks that bake in containers will chime in. It
should work, but it's not something I've done so I can't really say. Some
time back I finally learned to bake 'au natural', like my grandcestors did.
Consequently I only make freeform, European farm/country-style breads and
never use a pan or form. I saw that my old friend Graham chimed in
earlier, I think he used to do breads like that, so you might want to ping
him on that.

In any event, let's get your starter humming in the key of 'C', and we can
cue the chorus for your casserole dish when it's time to hit the aria.

As an aside, where is you is? Maybe we can arrange a starter
replacement...?

L8r all,
Dusty
--
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual
ignorance." -- Henry Louis Mencken

Salmon Egg wrote:
> In article >,
> zxcvbob > wrote:
>
>> I have a sourdough starter going, initially made from rye flour and
>> water but now I feed it with AP flour and all the gray rye color is
>> gone. It smells sour and throws a "hooch", but it never gets frothy
>> or rises. It does bubble a little, so I know there's yeast in there.
>> I tried dumping out half of it and feeding every 6 hours this
>> weekend, but it's still the same.
>>
>> How can I encourage the yeast to be more assertive? I hate to think
>> what will happen when I try baking with it and the it gets its first
>> exposure to salt.
>>
>> I know it's cheating, but can I make a batch of bread using bakers
>> yeast, then add some of my starter to sour it? Or will bakers yeast
>> inhibit the sour bacteria? (I'm not talking about adding yeast to the
>> starter)
>>
>> -Bob
>
> First of all, if you cheat, my lips are sealed!
>
> I have the same problem. I gave up fighting it. I use YEAST! Note that
> most store bought sourdough also uses yeast.
>
> Here is what I do.
>
> I let my sourdough sit out on the counter.I may be days before I use it.
> It gets more flavorful with time. It is a covered plastic container.
> After I use it I add a cup of warm water and a cup of all purpose flour.
>
> To use the starter, in my bread machine, I stir my starter, and pour it
> all into the pan. That leaves the container coated with old starter. I
> add the water and flour. The residual starter in the container
> inoculates the new starter food.
>
> I then add other ingredients to the pan making adjustments for the water
> in the starter.
>
> This way, I get good rise AND good flavor. As for the fundamentalist
> zealots, I cite the First Amendment to the Constitution. There is no
> established religion.
>
> Bill
>


I tried it your way and got a dense but tasty loaf of faux sourdough
bread. The dough rose rapidly, and I punched it down, and it didn't
want to come back. But eventually it kind of rose again and I baked it.

Afterwards, I added 1/2 cup of flour and 1/3 cup of water to the
dirty starter bowl and stirred it up. After a couple of days it
started smelling pleasantly sour and had a few bubbles in it. (here
comes the good part) I stirred it vigorously with a fork to
incorporate some more air, and the yeast took off. It's bubbling
and rising now; I need to feed it again tomorrow morning. Turns out
the yeast just didn't have enough oxygen for a long enough aerobic
phase.

This might be a clue for both of us.

-Bob

In article >,
zxcvbob > wrote:

> I tried it your way and got a dense but tasty loaf of faux sourdough
> bread. The dough rose rapidly, and I punched it down, and it didn't
> want to come back. But eventually it kind of rose again and I baked it.
>
> Afterwards, I added 1/2 cup of flour and 1/3 cup of water to the
> dirty starter bowl and stirred it up. After a couple of days it
> started smelling pleasantly sour and had a few bubbles in it. (here
> comes the good part) I stirred it vigorously with a fork to
> incorporate some more air, and the yeast took off. It's bubbling
> and rising now; I need to feed it again tomorrow morning. Turns out
> the yeast just didn't have enough oxygen for a long enough aerobic
> phase.
>
> This might be a clue for both of us.

VERY INTERESTING! Because the term "fermentation" was always used with
respect to yeast, I thought it was an anaerobic process. Maybe not.

You may notice that I posted thinking that excess acidity might be a
culprit. Barry Harmon > posted a thoughtful
response on that subject. It may have been on alt.bread.recipes.

Keep us informed of your results. I will try to incorporate them in what
I do.

Bill

--
An old man would be better off never having been born.

Salmon Egg wrote:
> In article >,
> zxcvbob > wrote:
>
>> I tried it your way and got a dense but tasty loaf of faux sourdough
>> bread. The dough rose rapidly, and I punched it down, and it didn't
>> want to come back. But eventually it kind of rose again and I baked it.
>>
>> Afterwards, I added 1/2 cup of flour and 1/3 cup of water to the
>> dirty starter bowl and stirred it up. After a couple of days it
>> started smelling pleasantly sour and had a few bubbles in it. (here
>> comes the good part) I stirred it vigorously with a fork to
>> incorporate some more air, and the yeast took off. It's bubbling
>> and rising now; I need to feed it again tomorrow morning. Turns out
>> the yeast just didn't have enough oxygen for a long enough aerobic
>> phase.
>>
>> This might be a clue for both of us.
>
> VERY INTERESTING! Because the term "fermentation" was always used with
> respect to yeast, I thought it was an anaerobic process. Maybe not.
>
> You may notice that I posted thinking that excess acidity might be a
> culprit. Barry Harmon > posted a thoughtful
> response on that subject. It may have been on alt.bread.recipes.
>
> Keep us informed of your results. I will try to incorporate them in what
> I do.
>
> Bill
>


Yeast has both aerobic and anaerobic metabolism. It stores up energy
during the aerobic phase, and that /might/ be where it does most of it
reproduction but I don't know. The anaerobic phase is when it
produces alcohol.

When brewing beer, you have to aerate the "wort" when you pitch the
yeast so the yeast has some oxygen to work with. (after the yeast
uses up that initial dissolved oxygen, additional oxygen becomes your
enemy)

-Bob