Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Fred
 
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Default Artisanal crumb

I'm still trying to reproduce the large-hole artisanal crumb I see in some
breads. Truthfully, I don't care for it but I want to know how to do it.
I've tried baking right after fermentation, I've undermixed and overmixed
and underproofed and overproofed, I've even tried wet doughs (65% liquid at
any rate.) I get my small, uniform and lovely crumb every time. What have
I not done? Or what have I done wrong? Thanks.

Fred
Foodie Forums
http://www.foodieforums.com



  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Pearce
 
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Default

"Fred" wrote in message ...

> I'm still trying to reproduce the large-hole artisanal crumb
> I've even tried wet doughs (65% liquid at any rate.)
>I get my small, uniform and lovely crumb every time. What have
> I not done? Or what have I done wrong? Thanks.


You might want to try a wetter dough with at least 70% hydration.

-Mike



  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Wcsjohn
 
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Default

>
>I'm still trying to reproduce the large-hole artisanal crumb I see in some
>breads. Truthfully, I don't care for it but I want to know how to do it.
>I've tried baking right after fermentation, I've undermixed and overmixed
>and underproofed and overproofed, I've even tried wet doughs (65% liquid at
>any rate.) I get my small, uniform and lovely crumb every time. What have
>I not done? Or what have I done wrong? Thanks.
>
>Fred


The only method I know works is to use hydrations of 80% or more and intensive
dough development by use of long, fast mixes and/or Stretch 'n' Fold.

A very hot oven helps, a little.

John
  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kenneth
 
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Default

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 13:57:50 -0500, "Fred" >
wrote:

>I'm still trying to reproduce the large-hole artisanal crumb I see in some
>breads. Truthfully, I don't care for it but I want to know how to do it.
>I've tried baking right after fermentation, I've undermixed and overmixed
>and underproofed and overproofed, I've even tried wet doughs (65% liquid at
>any rate.) I get my small, uniform and lovely crumb every time. What have
>I not done? Or what have I done wrong? Thanks.
>
>Fred
>Foodie Forums
>http://www.foodieforums.com
>
>


Hey Fred,

I would add to the good thoughts you have already seen:

Generally, higher protein flours yield a finer crumb. Lower protein
flours produce a coarser crumb.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kenneth
 
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Default

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 13:57:50 -0500, "Fred" >
wrote:

>I'm still trying to reproduce the large-hole artisanal crumb I see in some
>breads. Truthfully, I don't care for it but I want to know how to do it.
>I've tried baking right after fermentation, I've undermixed and overmixed
>and underproofed and overproofed, I've even tried wet doughs (65% liquid at
>any rate.) I get my small, uniform and lovely crumb every time. What have
>I not done? Or what have I done wrong? Thanks.
>
>Fred
>Foodie Forums
>http://www.foodieforums.com
>
>


Hey Fred,

I would add to the good thoughts you have already seen:

Generally, higher protein flours yield a finer crumb. Lower protein
flours produce a coarser crumb.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."


  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Janet Bostwick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Fred" > wrote in message
...
> I'm still trying to reproduce the large-hole artisanal crumb I see in some
> breads. Truthfully, I don't care for it but I want to know how to do it.
> I've tried baking right after fermentation, I've undermixed and overmixed
> and underproofed and overproofed, I've even tried wet doughs (65% liquid

at
> any rate.) I get my small, uniform and lovely crumb every time. What

have
> I not done? Or what have I done wrong? Thanks.
>
> Fred
> Foodie Forums
> http://www.foodieforums.com
>

You have to minimize the handling, particularly after the first rise. Pour
the dough from the bowl onto a lightly floured board, do not punch down--you
are trying to preserve the air bubbles that you have created during
fermentation. Do not knead, etc., Cut the dough into the pieces that you
want and shape with very gentle hands and an economy of handling. More
handling equals finer crumb.
Janet


  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Janet Bostwick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Fred" > wrote in message
...
> I'm still trying to reproduce the large-hole artisanal crumb I see in some
> breads. Truthfully, I don't care for it but I want to know how to do it.
> I've tried baking right after fermentation, I've undermixed and overmixed
> and underproofed and overproofed, I've even tried wet doughs (65% liquid

at
> any rate.) I get my small, uniform and lovely crumb every time. What

have
> I not done? Or what have I done wrong? Thanks.
>
> Fred
> Foodie Forums
> http://www.foodieforums.com
>

You have to minimize the handling, particularly after the first rise. Pour
the dough from the bowl onto a lightly floured board, do not punch down--you
are trying to preserve the air bubbles that you have created during
fermentation. Do not knead, etc., Cut the dough into the pieces that you
want and shape with very gentle hands and an economy of handling. More
handling equals finer crumb.
Janet


  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Fred
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Fred" > wrote in message
...
> I'm still trying to reproduce the large-hole artisanal crumb I see in some
> breads. Truthfully, I don't care for it but I want to know how to do it.
> I've tried baking right after fermentation, I've undermixed and overmixed
> and underproofed and overproofed, I've even tried wet doughs (65% liquid

at
> any rate.) I get my small, uniform and lovely crumb every time. What

have
> I not done? Or what have I done wrong? Thanks.
>
> Fred
> Foodie Forums
> http://www.foodieforums.com
>


Let's go through some of these. If I get the dough moist enough that it's
almost a batter my hearth loaves will look like pancakes. I suppose I could
live with panned loaves but that isn't what I had in mind. Someone talked
about "pouring" a dough. My doughs don't pour. I have tried over mixing.
I've even gone to the point of breaking the protein strands with a 25 minute
mix. I haven't tried using a lower gluten flour but I've certainly tried
mixing rye, spelt and whole wheat flours which certainly decreased the
"average" gluten in the dough. I've tried making up the dough right after
mixing and then baking it directly without deflating and proofing. I'll go
back to the well on the high hydration idea because I've never gone to 80%.
So how do you get a normal looking loaf from a dough that is so wet it will
spread like batter? I want to conquer this without resorting to a panned
loaf. Thanks to all of you for the input.

Fred
Foodie Forums
http://www.foodieforums.com



  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Fred
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Fred" > wrote in message
...
> I'm still trying to reproduce the large-hole artisanal crumb I see in some
> breads. Truthfully, I don't care for it but I want to know how to do it.
> I've tried baking right after fermentation, I've undermixed and overmixed
> and underproofed and overproofed, I've even tried wet doughs (65% liquid

at
> any rate.) I get my small, uniform and lovely crumb every time. What

have
> I not done? Or what have I done wrong? Thanks.
>
> Fred
> Foodie Forums
> http://www.foodieforums.com
>


Let's go through some of these. If I get the dough moist enough that it's
almost a batter my hearth loaves will look like pancakes. I suppose I could
live with panned loaves but that isn't what I had in mind. Someone talked
about "pouring" a dough. My doughs don't pour. I have tried over mixing.
I've even gone to the point of breaking the protein strands with a 25 minute
mix. I haven't tried using a lower gluten flour but I've certainly tried
mixing rye, spelt and whole wheat flours which certainly decreased the
"average" gluten in the dough. I've tried making up the dough right after
mixing and then baking it directly without deflating and proofing. I'll go
back to the well on the high hydration idea because I've never gone to 80%.
So how do you get a normal looking loaf from a dough that is so wet it will
spread like batter? I want to conquer this without resorting to a panned
loaf. Thanks to all of you for the input.

Fred
Foodie Forums
http://www.foodieforums.com



  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Janet Bostwick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Fred" > wrote in message
...
snip
>
> Let's go through some of these. If I get the dough moist enough that it's
> almost a batter my hearth loaves will look like pancakes. I suppose I

could
> live with panned loaves but that isn't what I had in mind. Someone talked
> about "pouring" a dough. My doughs don't pour. I have tried over

mixing.
> I've even gone to the point of breaking the protein strands with a 25

minute
> mix. I haven't tried using a lower gluten flour but I've certainly tried
> mixing rye, spelt and whole wheat flours which certainly decreased the
> "average" gluten in the dough. I've tried making up the dough right after
> mixing and then baking it directly without deflating and proofing. I'll

go
> back to the well on the high hydration idea because I've never gone to

80%.
> So how do you get a normal looking loaf from a dough that is so wet it

will
> spread like batter? I want to conquer this without resorting to a panned
> loaf. Thanks to all of you for the input.
>
> Fred
> Foodie Forums
> http://www.foodieforums.com
>

When I said pour the dough, I meant that instead of 'punching the dough
down,' you simply tip the bowl of dough over the floured board and allow the
risen dough to ooze out. You don't have to have a particularly high
hydration dough to do this, normal hydration will work. But you do have to
be careful that you are not making an overly dry dough--you know, one of
those 'knead until no longer sticky' things. Too often we add too much
additional flour during the kneading stage and the dough is really too dry.
You're looking for a dough that doesn't goop up your hands or stick to them
if you quickly stab or pat at it. When you make your dough into pieces for
individual loaves, cut directly downward instead of dragging a knife through
it. Lightly flour your cut line if that helps. Gently pat the dough into
the shape that you want and then gently pull the sides down and pinch
underneath to form a tight gluten skin to help the dough resist outward sag.
You can even use the traditional method of rolling the dough ball under the
palm to shape as long as you do it gently and quickly.
Janet




  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Janet Bostwick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Fred" > wrote in message
...
snip
>
> Let's go through some of these. If I get the dough moist enough that it's
> almost a batter my hearth loaves will look like pancakes. I suppose I

could
> live with panned loaves but that isn't what I had in mind. Someone talked
> about "pouring" a dough. My doughs don't pour. I have tried over

mixing.
> I've even gone to the point of breaking the protein strands with a 25

minute
> mix. I haven't tried using a lower gluten flour but I've certainly tried
> mixing rye, spelt and whole wheat flours which certainly decreased the
> "average" gluten in the dough. I've tried making up the dough right after
> mixing and then baking it directly without deflating and proofing. I'll

go
> back to the well on the high hydration idea because I've never gone to

80%.
> So how do you get a normal looking loaf from a dough that is so wet it

will
> spread like batter? I want to conquer this without resorting to a panned
> loaf. Thanks to all of you for the input.
>
> Fred
> Foodie Forums
> http://www.foodieforums.com
>

When I said pour the dough, I meant that instead of 'punching the dough
down,' you simply tip the bowl of dough over the floured board and allow the
risen dough to ooze out. You don't have to have a particularly high
hydration dough to do this, normal hydration will work. But you do have to
be careful that you are not making an overly dry dough--you know, one of
those 'knead until no longer sticky' things. Too often we add too much
additional flour during the kneading stage and the dough is really too dry.
You're looking for a dough that doesn't goop up your hands or stick to them
if you quickly stab or pat at it. When you make your dough into pieces for
individual loaves, cut directly downward instead of dragging a knife through
it. Lightly flour your cut line if that helps. Gently pat the dough into
the shape that you want and then gently pull the sides down and pinch
underneath to form a tight gluten skin to help the dough resist outward sag.
You can even use the traditional method of rolling the dough ball under the
palm to shape as long as you do it gently and quickly.
Janet


  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Janet Bostwick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Fred" > wrote in message
...
>
> Let's go through some of these. If I get the dough moist enough that it's
> almost a batter my hearth loaves will look like pancakes. I suppose I

could
> live with panned loaves but that isn't what I had in mind. Someone talked
> about "pouring" a dough. My doughs don't pour. I have tried over

mixing.
> I've even gone to the point of breaking the protein strands with a 25

minute
> mix. I haven't tried using a lower gluten flour but I've certainly tried
> mixing rye, spelt and whole wheat flours which certainly decreased the
> "average" gluten in the dough. I've tried making up the dough right after
> mixing and then baking it directly without deflating and proofing. I'll

go
> back to the well on the high hydration idea because I've never gone to

80%.
> So how do you get a normal looking loaf from a dough that is so wet it

will
> spread like batter? I want to conquer this without resorting to a panned
> loaf. Thanks to all of you for the input.
>
> Fred

You don't need 25 minutes of mixing/kneading. That's going to make a tight
crumb. 4-6 minutes should do it for kneading by machine.
Janet
> Foodie Forums
> http://www.foodieforums.com
>
>
>



  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Janet Bostwick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Fred" > wrote in message
...
>
> Let's go through some of these. If I get the dough moist enough that it's
> almost a batter my hearth loaves will look like pancakes. I suppose I

could
> live with panned loaves but that isn't what I had in mind. Someone talked
> about "pouring" a dough. My doughs don't pour. I have tried over

mixing.
> I've even gone to the point of breaking the protein strands with a 25

minute
> mix. I haven't tried using a lower gluten flour but I've certainly tried
> mixing rye, spelt and whole wheat flours which certainly decreased the
> "average" gluten in the dough. I've tried making up the dough right after
> mixing and then baking it directly without deflating and proofing. I'll

go
> back to the well on the high hydration idea because I've never gone to

80%.
> So how do you get a normal looking loaf from a dough that is so wet it

will
> spread like batter? I want to conquer this without resorting to a panned
> loaf. Thanks to all of you for the input.
>
> Fred

You don't need 25 minutes of mixing/kneading. That's going to make a tight
crumb. 4-6 minutes should do it for kneading by machine.
Janet
> Foodie Forums
> http://www.foodieforums.com
>
>
>



  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
williamwaller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 8/29/04 9:13 PM, "Fred" > wrote:

>
> "Fred" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I'm still trying to reproduce the large-hole artisanal crumb I see in some
>> breads. Truthfully, I don't care for it but I want to know how to do it.
>> I've tried baking right after fermentation, I've undermixed and overmixed
>> and underproofed and overproofed, I've even tried wet doughs (65% liquid

> at
>> any rate.) I get my small, uniform and lovely crumb every time. What

> have
>> I not done? Or what have I done wrong? Thanks.
>>
>> Fred
>> Foodie Forums
>> http://www.foodieforums.com
>>

>
> Let's go through some of these. If I get the dough moist enough that it's
> almost a batter my hearth loaves will look like pancakes. I suppose I could
> live with panned loaves but that isn't what I had in mind. Someone talked
> about "pouring" a dough. My doughs don't pour. I have tried over mixing.
> I've even gone to the point of breaking the protein strands with a 25 minute
> mix. I haven't tried using a lower gluten flour but I've certainly tried
> mixing rye, spelt and whole wheat flours which certainly decreased the
> "average" gluten in the dough. I've tried making up the dough right after
> mixing and then baking it directly without deflating and proofing. I'll go
> back to the well on the high hydration idea because I've never gone to 80%.
> So how do you get a normal looking loaf from a dough that is so wet it will
> spread like batter? I want to conquer this without resorting to a panned
> loaf. Thanks to all of you for the input.
>
> Fred
> Foodie Forums
> http://www.foodieforums.com
>
> Fred,


Janet and Kenneth offered good advice. Don't handle the dough. Ease it from
it's proofing container and minimally shape. To which, I would add, be sure
to provide a warm final proof environment around 85-90 degrees F.

Kenneth indicated low gluten flour as in: all purpose flour (as opposed to
bread flour). The rye, spelt and whole wheat flours add husk material which
punctures the crumb and degasses the bread.

I do OK with this at 68 to 70 percent hydration (and use lots of flour when
I handle the dough). I feed the starter twice the day before. You need an
active starter and lots of it to push this loaf. I don't mix much or knead
much either. A long cool fermentation replaces the mechanical gymnastics
(not to be confused with warm final proof).

Someone else mentioned a hot oven. I'd shoot for at least 475. 500 F. is
better. And I'd back off the salt a bit. Use half what you usually use.

Have your good olive oil at the ready... you'll get there.

Will



_______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
>
http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough


  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
williamwaller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 8/29/04 9:13 PM, "Fred" > wrote:

>
> "Fred" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I'm still trying to reproduce the large-hole artisanal crumb I see in some
>> breads. Truthfully, I don't care for it but I want to know how to do it.
>> I've tried baking right after fermentation, I've undermixed and overmixed
>> and underproofed and overproofed, I've even tried wet doughs (65% liquid

> at
>> any rate.) I get my small, uniform and lovely crumb every time. What

> have
>> I not done? Or what have I done wrong? Thanks.
>>
>> Fred
>> Foodie Forums
>> http://www.foodieforums.com
>>

>
> Let's go through some of these. If I get the dough moist enough that it's
> almost a batter my hearth loaves will look like pancakes. I suppose I could
> live with panned loaves but that isn't what I had in mind. Someone talked
> about "pouring" a dough. My doughs don't pour. I have tried over mixing.
> I've even gone to the point of breaking the protein strands with a 25 minute
> mix. I haven't tried using a lower gluten flour but I've certainly tried
> mixing rye, spelt and whole wheat flours which certainly decreased the
> "average" gluten in the dough. I've tried making up the dough right after
> mixing and then baking it directly without deflating and proofing. I'll go
> back to the well on the high hydration idea because I've never gone to 80%.
> So how do you get a normal looking loaf from a dough that is so wet it will
> spread like batter? I want to conquer this without resorting to a panned
> loaf. Thanks to all of you for the input.
>
> Fred
> Foodie Forums
> http://www.foodieforums.com
>
> Fred,


Janet and Kenneth offered good advice. Don't handle the dough. Ease it from
it's proofing container and minimally shape. To which, I would add, be sure
to provide a warm final proof environment around 85-90 degrees F.

Kenneth indicated low gluten flour as in: all purpose flour (as opposed to
bread flour). The rye, spelt and whole wheat flours add husk material which
punctures the crumb and degasses the bread.

I do OK with this at 68 to 70 percent hydration (and use lots of flour when
I handle the dough). I feed the starter twice the day before. You need an
active starter and lots of it to push this loaf. I don't mix much or knead
much either. A long cool fermentation replaces the mechanical gymnastics
(not to be confused with warm final proof).

Someone else mentioned a hot oven. I'd shoot for at least 475. 500 F. is
better. And I'd back off the salt a bit. Use half what you usually use.

Have your good olive oil at the ready... you'll get there.

Will



_______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
>
http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough




  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Pearce
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Fred" wrote in message ...

> Let's go through some of these.


>If I get the dough moist enough that it's
> almost a batter my hearth loaves will look like pancakes.


Even at 80% hydration your loaves shouldn't look like pancakes, but you
really don't need to go that high to get larger holes, though at 80% it's
pretty much a guarantee you'll get them.

> I suppose I could
> live with panned loaves but that isn't what I had in mind.


I don't think anyone suggested pan loaves, not that there is anything wrong
with pan loaves.

>Someone talked
> about "pouring" a dough. My doughs don't pour.


Janet mentioned pouring. When working with wetter doughs they will come out
of the bowl used for the first rise by just tilting the bowl and letting the
dough "pour" out onto the work surface. It doesn't exactly flow. It's not
pouring in the same way a cake or pancake batter would pour. It's
significantly thicker than that even at 80% hydration.

>I'll go
> back to the well on the high hydration idea because I've never gone to

80%.
> So how do you get a normal looking loaf from a dough that is so wet it

will
> spread like batter?


Handling and shaping wetter dough can take some practice. Over a couple of
years I slowly increased the amount of water I had in my dough. I wouldn't
increase the hydration until I felt comfortable working with the dough at
the current hydration level. I still can't shape "normal" loaves once I get
past the high 60s or 70%.

You might want to try making some loaves with a more free shape like
ciabatta when first using wetter dough.

-Mike



  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Pearce
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Fred" wrote in message ...

> Let's go through some of these.


>If I get the dough moist enough that it's
> almost a batter my hearth loaves will look like pancakes.


Even at 80% hydration your loaves shouldn't look like pancakes, but you
really don't need to go that high to get larger holes, though at 80% it's
pretty much a guarantee you'll get them.

> I suppose I could
> live with panned loaves but that isn't what I had in mind.


I don't think anyone suggested pan loaves, not that there is anything wrong
with pan loaves.

>Someone talked
> about "pouring" a dough. My doughs don't pour.


Janet mentioned pouring. When working with wetter doughs they will come out
of the bowl used for the first rise by just tilting the bowl and letting the
dough "pour" out onto the work surface. It doesn't exactly flow. It's not
pouring in the same way a cake or pancake batter would pour. It's
significantly thicker than that even at 80% hydration.

>I'll go
> back to the well on the high hydration idea because I've never gone to

80%.
> So how do you get a normal looking loaf from a dough that is so wet it

will
> spread like batter?


Handling and shaping wetter dough can take some practice. Over a couple of
years I slowly increased the amount of water I had in my dough. I wouldn't
increase the hydration until I felt comfortable working with the dough at
the current hydration level. I still can't shape "normal" loaves once I get
past the high 60s or 70%.

You might want to try making some loaves with a more free shape like
ciabatta when first using wetter dough.

-Mike



  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dave Bell
 
Posts: n/a
Default

williamwaller wrote:


> Kenneth indicated low gluten flour as in: all purpose flour (as opposed to
> bread flour). The rye, spelt and whole wheat flours add husk material which
> punctures the crumb and degasses the bread.


Use white spelt - no husk!
  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dave Bell
 
Posts: n/a
Default

williamwaller wrote:


> Kenneth indicated low gluten flour as in: all purpose flour (as opposed to
> bread flour). The rye, spelt and whole wheat flours add husk material which
> punctures the crumb and degasses the bread.


Use white spelt - no husk!
  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Here is a fine opportunity for the expert advisor to punctuate his
prose with graphics. An easy way is to scan a slice on the platen
of a scanner, and put the result in evidence in web space to be
referenced in one's post(s). www.zippyimages.com is good
for that, probably the easiest among the many possibilities.

Regards per cent hydration, consider this conundrum: If I make
my dough to 80% without regard to say, the flour's normal 14%
moisture content, the actual hydration will be considerably higher
than I suspect. If the normal 14% is conventionally be ignored
when stating the bakers' per cent hydration, how should one
manage the potential errors due to moisture adsorption in a humid
atmosphere (which could take the base moisture content to 21%,=20
I understand), or moisture depletion due to desiccation in an arid=20
region?

For instance, actual per cent hydration obtained by adding .8 pounds
of water to 1.0 pound of flour which came at ~14% moisture, which=20
soaked up another ~7% of moisture, would be closer to 130% than
to 80%. I would have different results with my soggy flour, I suspect,
than do the Mountain People and the Desert People.

I expect that this thread's respondents are weighing. Measurement
in cups, which have been precalibrated by weighing the amount of=20
flour contained, may fail in an additional way -- as the flour sits =
around
and soaks up moisture, it settles down and becomes more dense.

In this vein, I should like to ask how the big-hole folks are coming
along with the "window-pane" test.

???

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html









  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Here is a fine opportunity for the expert advisor to punctuate his
prose with graphics. An easy way is to scan a slice on the platen
of a scanner, and put the result in evidence in web space to be
referenced in one's post(s). www.zippyimages.com is good
for that, probably the easiest among the many possibilities.

Regards per cent hydration, consider this conundrum: If I make
my dough to 80% without regard to say, the flour's normal 14%
moisture content, the actual hydration will be considerably higher
than I suspect. If the normal 14% is conventionally be ignored
when stating the bakers' per cent hydration, how should one
manage the potential errors due to moisture adsorption in a humid
atmosphere (which could take the base moisture content to 21%,=20
I understand), or moisture depletion due to desiccation in an arid=20
region?

For instance, actual per cent hydration obtained by adding .8 pounds
of water to 1.0 pound of flour which came at ~14% moisture, which=20
soaked up another ~7% of moisture, would be closer to 130% than
to 80%. I would have different results with my soggy flour, I suspect,
than do the Mountain People and the Desert People.

I expect that this thread's respondents are weighing. Measurement
in cups, which have been precalibrated by weighing the amount of=20
flour contained, may fail in an additional way -- as the flour sits =
around
and soaks up moisture, it settles down and becomes more dense.

In this vein, I should like to ask how the big-hole folks are coming
along with the "window-pane" test.

???

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html







  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
Thomas Just
 
Posts: n/a
Default



> >
> > Fred,

>
> Janet and Kenneth offered good advice. Don't handle the dough. Ease it

from
> it's proofing container and minimally shape. To which, I would add, be

sure
> to provide a warm final proof environment around 85-90 degrees F.
>
> Kenneth indicated low gluten flour as in: all purpose flour (as opposed to
> bread flour). The rye, spelt and whole wheat flours add husk material

which
> punctures the crumb and degasses the bread.
>
> I do OK with this at 68 to 70 percent hydration (and use lots of flour

when
> I handle the dough). I feed the starter twice the day before. You need an
> active starter and lots of it to push this loaf.




I wonder how much that is? 20 %, 30%, 40% starter of final dough? Any
suggestions?


> I don't mix much or knead
> much either. A long cool fermentation replaces the mechanical gymnastics
> (not to be confused with warm final proof).
>
> Someone else mentioned a hot oven. I'd shoot for at least 475. 500 F. is
> better. And I'd back off the salt a bit. Use half what you usually use.
>
> Have your good olive oil at the ready... you'll get there.
>
> Will
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> > rec.food.sourdough mailing list
> >
> >
http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

>



  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
Thomas Just
 
Posts: n/a
Default



> >
> > Fred,

>
> Janet and Kenneth offered good advice. Don't handle the dough. Ease it

from
> it's proofing container and minimally shape. To which, I would add, be

sure
> to provide a warm final proof environment around 85-90 degrees F.
>
> Kenneth indicated low gluten flour as in: all purpose flour (as opposed to
> bread flour). The rye, spelt and whole wheat flours add husk material

which
> punctures the crumb and degasses the bread.
>
> I do OK with this at 68 to 70 percent hydration (and use lots of flour

when
> I handle the dough). I feed the starter twice the day before. You need an
> active starter and lots of it to push this loaf.




I wonder how much that is? 20 %, 30%, 40% starter of final dough? Any
suggestions?


> I don't mix much or knead
> much either. A long cool fermentation replaces the mechanical gymnastics
> (not to be confused with warm final proof).
>
> Someone else mentioned a hot oven. I'd shoot for at least 475. 500 F. is
> better. And I'd back off the salt a bit. Use half what you usually use.
>
> Have your good olive oil at the ready... you'll get there.
>
> Will
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> > rec.food.sourdough mailing list
> >
> >
http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

>



  #24 (permalink)   Report Post  
Wcsjohn
 
Posts: n/a
Default

>
>Here is a fine opportunity for the expert advisor to punctuate his
>prose with graphics. An easy way is to scan a slice on the platen
>of a scanner, and put the result in evidence in web space to be
>referenced in one's post(s). www.zippyimages.com is good
>for that, probably the easiest among the many possibilities.


http://www.zippyimages.com/files/100448/DSC00758.jpg

is a picture, which I may have posted before, my short term memory is not the
most accurate of tools.

It's the sourdough Ciabatta for which I posted a recipe a few months back.


>Regards per cent hydration, consider this conundrum: If I make
>my dough to 80% without regard to say, the flour's normal 14%
>moisture content, the actual hydration will be considerably higher
>than I suspect. If the normal 14% is conventionally be ignored
>when stating the bakers' per cent hydration, how should one
>manage the potential errors due to moisture adsorption in a humid
>atmosphere (which could take the base moisture content to 21%,=20
>I understand), or moisture depletion due to desiccation in an arid=20
>region?


I don't see it as a conundrum, just one of the many variables to be taken into
account when making bread. The major problem is not the allowance for moisture
content variations, you just add more flour or water, but describing the
viscosity, texture and "feel" of the dough the recipe is describing so that
someone making the bread for the first time will have something for which to
aim. Given extremes of moisture content that may vary from, say, 7% to your
quoted maximum of 21% (chapter and verse for that one would be appreciated,
I've never seen a figure that high, you live and learn) the "actual" hydration
of a dough made from 1 kilo of flour, at a nominal 14% moisture, and 800 gm
water would be a total water/dry matter ratio of 940/860. At 21% the ratio
would be 1010/790 and at 7% the ratio would be 870/930.

So, "actual" hydration, including flour moisture content, could range from 127%
to 93% with a median of 109%.

And if you think that makes casual discussions of an "80% hydration" bread
imprecise you're perfectly correct.

Any formula makes assumptions and a flour moisture content the same as or close
to the flour used to develop the forrmula in the first place is one of those
assumptions.

>
>For instance, actual per cent hydration obtained by adding .8 pounds
>of water to 1.0 pound of flour which came at ~14% moisture, which=20
>soaked up another ~7% of moisture, would be closer to 130% than
>to 80%. I would have different results with my soggy flour, I suspect,
>than do the Mountain People and the Desert People.
>
>I expect that this thread's respondents are weighing. Measurement
>in cups, which have been precalibrated by weighing the amount of=20
>flour contained, may fail in an additional way -- as the flour sits =
>around
>and soaks up moisture, it settles down and becomes more dense.
>
>In this vein, I should like to ask how the big-hole folks are coming
>along with the "window-pane" test.
>


I don't know if you're employing irony here but all my "high hydration",
intensively worked doughs "windowpane" very nicely but then, I've never been
convinced of the power of the
"windowpane test" to provide a reliable prediction of bread quality.





  #25 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message=20
...

> http://www.zippyimages.com/files/100448/DSC00758.jpg=20
> is a picture, which I may have posted before, my short term memory is =

not the
> most accurate of tools. It's the sourdough Ciabatta for which I =

posted a recipe=20
> a few months back.


Well done! Well, the photo is a bit big for my screen, so it takes a =
bit of work
to see it all at once. Your article can be retrieved from Google:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...00000593@mb-m=
04.aol.com

> ... I don't know if you're employing irony here but all my "high =

hydration",
> intensively worked doughs "windowpane" very nicely but then, I've =

never been
> convinced of the power of the "windowpane test" to provide a reliable =


> prediction of bread quality.


Of course I am! It would be a good thing to develop a way to =
demonstrate
windopaneing at zippyimages. Your good result may very well not the the =
same
as I would expect mine to be. A good windowpane result, and the amount =
of
machine kneading you describe, implies a well-developed dough. =
Otherwise
I could suppose that dough can develop itself during a long sit in the =
fridge, as
reported by some others, but I would not want to bet on it.

--
DickA


  #26 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message=20
...

> http://www.zippyimages.com/files/100448/DSC00758.jpg=20
> is a picture, which I may have posted before, my short term memory is =

not the
> most accurate of tools. It's the sourdough Ciabatta for which I =

posted a recipe=20
> a few months back.


Well done! Well, the photo is a bit big for my screen, so it takes a =
bit of work
to see it all at once. Your article can be retrieved from Google:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...00000593@mb-m=
04.aol.com

> ... I don't know if you're employing irony here but all my "high =

hydration",
> intensively worked doughs "windowpane" very nicely but then, I've =

never been
> convinced of the power of the "windowpane test" to provide a reliable =


> prediction of bread quality.


Of course I am! It would be a good thing to develop a way to =
demonstrate
windopaneing at zippyimages. Your good result may very well not the the =
same
as I would expect mine to be. A good windowpane result, and the amount =
of
machine kneading you describe, implies a well-developed dough. =
Otherwise
I could suppose that dough can develop itself during a long sit in the =
fridge, as
reported by some others, but I would not want to bet on it.

--
DickA
  #27 (permalink)   Report Post  
Wcsjohn
 
Posts: n/a
Default

>
>Of course I am! It would be a good thing to develop a way to =
>demonstrate
>windopaneing at zippyimages.


I'm working on that, my plan ("Mr Blackadder, I have a cunning plan.") is to
photograph a brightly lit collection of easily recognisable kitchen items
THROUGH a dough windowpane. It's proving a trifle tricky but we will succeed.


> Your good result may very well not the the =
>same
>as I would expect mine to be. A good windowpane result, and the amount =
>of
>machine kneading you describe, implies a well-developed dough. =


It is indeed, a fast (Kenwood speed 3, ca. 120 rpm) mix until the dough
(nominal hydration 80%) is slapping the bowl and has cleared the bottom and
Stretch 'n' Fold cycles to make it even more elastic.

>otherwise
>I could suppose that dough can develop itself during a long sit in the =
>fridge, as
>reported by some others, but I would not want to bet on it.
>
>--
>DickA


I've never known gluten development to arise spontaneously, it requires
mechanical work input. Unless, of course, you've trained your Fridge Fairies to
while away their time by kneading dough.

John
  #28 (permalink)   Report Post  
Wcsjohn
 
Posts: n/a
Default

>
>Of course I am! It would be a good thing to develop a way to =
>demonstrate
>windopaneing at zippyimages.


I'm working on that, my plan ("Mr Blackadder, I have a cunning plan.") is to
photograph a brightly lit collection of easily recognisable kitchen items
THROUGH a dough windowpane. It's proving a trifle tricky but we will succeed.


> Your good result may very well not the the =
>same
>as I would expect mine to be. A good windowpane result, and the amount =
>of
>machine kneading you describe, implies a well-developed dough. =


It is indeed, a fast (Kenwood speed 3, ca. 120 rpm) mix until the dough
(nominal hydration 80%) is slapping the bowl and has cleared the bottom and
Stretch 'n' Fold cycles to make it even more elastic.

>otherwise
>I could suppose that dough can develop itself during a long sit in the =
>fridge, as
>reported by some others, but I would not want to bet on it.
>
>--
>DickA


I've never known gluten development to arise spontaneously, it requires
mechanical work input. Unless, of course, you've trained your Fridge Fairies to
while away their time by kneading dough.

John
  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
Charles Perry
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Wcsjohn wrote:
>
> I've never known gluten development to arise spontaneously, it requires
> mechanical work input. Unless, of course, you've trained your Fridge Fairies to
> while away their time by kneading dough.
>


Nice looking bread, John.

It is Bread Faeries, John, not Fridge Fairies. They hate it when
their name is spelled wrong. I once, in an idle moment,
speculated that the cold in the fridge caused the Bread Faeries
to shiver and that, in turn, was enough mechanical movement to do
some gluten development.

Of course I don't know that for certain. I do know they are not
above taking credit for work they did not do, while getting
pretty testy when their real efforts are not acknowledged. And,
Lord knows, it is bad news for us when any of the Wee Folk are
upset.

Regards,

Charles


--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **
  #32 (permalink)   Report Post  
Charles Perry
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Wcsjohn wrote:
>
> I've never known gluten development to arise spontaneously, it requires
> mechanical work input. Unless, of course, you've trained your Fridge Fairies to
> while away their time by kneading dough.
>


Nice looking bread, John.

It is Bread Faeries, John, not Fridge Fairies. They hate it when
their name is spelled wrong. I once, in an idle moment,
speculated that the cold in the fridge caused the Bread Faeries
to shiver and that, in turn, was enough mechanical movement to do
some gluten development.

Of course I don't know that for certain. I do know they are not
above taking credit for work they did not do, while getting
pretty testy when their real efforts are not acknowledged. And,
Lord knows, it is bad news for us when any of the Wee Folk are
upset.

Regards,

Charles


--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **
  #33 (permalink)   Report Post  
williamwaller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

>> I could suppose that dough can develop itself during a long sit in the =
>> fridge, as
>> reported by some others, but I would not want to bet on it.
>>
>> --
>> DickA

>
> I've never known gluten development to arise spontaneously, it requires
> mechanical work input. Unless, of course, you've trained your Fridge Fairies
> to
> while away their time by kneading dough.
>
> John


Well... AP or bread flours actually do very well at developing gluten with
sufficient time (at least mine do). I flogged dough for years before coming
to this realization. My first KitchenAid, the unfortunate facilitator of my
early enthusiasm, was retired with worn transfer gears from developing
gluten. KitchenAid #2 will survive longer. A little mixing and 2 or 3
minutes of kneading is wonderfully sufficient... even for 100% whole grain
loaves.

It's a more relaxed way of bread making, and perhaps not so comforting,
given many of us have invested several hundred $$$ in dough hook action, but
it is TRUE.

Will




  #34 (permalink)   Report Post  
williamwaller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

>> I could suppose that dough can develop itself during a long sit in the =
>> fridge, as
>> reported by some others, but I would not want to bet on it.
>>
>> --
>> DickA

>
> I've never known gluten development to arise spontaneously, it requires
> mechanical work input. Unless, of course, you've trained your Fridge Fairies
> to
> while away their time by kneading dough.
>
> John


Well... AP or bread flours actually do very well at developing gluten with
sufficient time (at least mine do). I flogged dough for years before coming
to this realization. My first KitchenAid, the unfortunate facilitator of my
early enthusiasm, was retired with worn transfer gears from developing
gluten. KitchenAid #2 will survive longer. A little mixing and 2 or 3
minutes of kneading is wonderfully sufficient... even for 100% whole grain
loaves.

It's a more relaxed way of bread making, and perhaps not so comforting,
given many of us have invested several hundred $$$ in dough hook action, but
it is TRUE.

Will




  #35 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kenneth
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:18:03 -0500, williamwaller
> wrote:

>but
>it is TRUE.


Hi Will,

Indeed, it is...

Also, in my experience, one result of gluten development by hydration
(just mixing long enough that there are no pockets of dry flour) is
that the crumb is coarser.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."


  #36 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kenneth
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:18:03 -0500, williamwaller
> wrote:

>but
>it is TRUE.


Hi Will,

Indeed, it is...

Also, in my experience, one result of gluten development by hydration
(just mixing long enough that there are no pockets of dry flour) is
that the crumb is coarser.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
  #37 (permalink)   Report Post  
Wcsjohn
 
Posts: n/a
Default

>
>Well, no... Gluten can be developed mechanically as you mention,
>chemically (see supermarket bread labels for more on that), and by
>hydration alone: Just mix some flour with water, and wait.
>
>All the best,
>
>--
>Kenneth
>

Are you seriously saying that dough merely needs to be mixed and left and that
it will, without further mechanical input, develop a gluten elasticity and
structure that is good enough to make bread worth eating?

John
  #38 (permalink)   Report Post  
Wcsjohn
 
Posts: n/a
Default

>
>Well, no... Gluten can be developed mechanically as you mention,
>chemically (see supermarket bread labels for more on that), and by
>hydration alone: Just mix some flour with water, and wait.
>
>All the best,
>
>--
>Kenneth
>

Are you seriously saying that dough merely needs to be mixed and left and that
it will, without further mechanical input, develop a gluten elasticity and
structure that is good enough to make bread worth eating?

John
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