I am useing KNode under LINUX so the problum may be on my end.

Joe Umstead



Ed Bechtel wrote:

> Joe asks:
>
> << Why do your post show up twice?
>
> Joe Umstead >>
>
> Ed replies:
> I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what you're talking
> about.
>
> I know very little about newsgroup and browsers. I use AOL to post and
> read threads. It is very primitive and displays threads in a linear
> fashion, not a
> heirarchial manner. I don't see duplicates in that reader.
>
> When I use groups.google.rec.food.sourdough via Internet Explorer to view
> a long topic displayed as a heirarchial stair case of threads, I also
> don't see duplicates.
>
> I have yet to use Outlook or Entourage (mail client) as a newsgroup reader
> because my head is full.
>
> What reader do you use?
>
> Do you still see duplicates?
>
>
>
> Ed

On 24 Apr 2004 at 14:30, Kenneth wrote:

> But none of us know what the breads of hundreds of years ago tasted
> like. My own strong suspicion is that they were vastly inferior to the
> best that is available today. And that is for several reasons:

> We know how to measure and control the temperatures, they did not. We
> can produce grain with the characteristics we desire, they baked with
> the flour that grew in their area, and, by the way, that was often
> contaminated.

Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit invented the alcohol thermometer in 1709
and the mercury thermometer in 1714. Anders Celsius first described
the centigrade thermometer in 1742.

2004 - 1709 = 295 So, thermometers have been in use for hundreds
of years.

Descriptions of medieval bread gathered by SCA members suggest
that the nobility ate bread that most of us would enjoy.

Here are some pointers..
http://www.whirlwind-design.com/madb...eadfaq.html#Q2

http://www.history.uk.com/recipes/index.php?archive=13

http://www.bakersfederation.org.uk/Medieval_Times.aspx

There are other sources available also. The information is skimpy, but
not totally absent.

Mike
--
Mike Avery

ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0280
* Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other
way *

Once seen on road signs all over the United States:
Train approaching
Whistle squealing
Pause!
Avoid that
Rundown feeling!
Burma-Shave

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 01:01:01 GMT, "graham" > wrote:

>
>"Kenneth" > wrote in message
.. .
>>> No, we cannot go back and taste it, but there would be other
>> indicators. Are there comments about the gustatory delights of bread
>> in older literature for example?
>
>"I care not for that neither, because I love crusts"
>
>Shakespeare, Two Gentlemen of Verona, III/1
>
>Cheers
>Graham
>

Thanks Graham!!!

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 19:17:18 -0600, "Mike Avery"
> wrote:

>On 24 Apr 2004 at 14:30, Kenneth wrote:
>
>> But none of us know what the breads of hundreds of years ago tasted
>> like. My own strong suspicion is that they were vastly inferior to the
>> best that is available today. And that is for several reasons:
>
>> We know how to measure and control the temperatures, they did not. We
>> can produce grain with the characteristics we desire, they baked with
>> the flour that grew in their area, and, by the way, that was often
>> contaminated.
>
>Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit invented the alcohol thermometer in 1709
>and the mercury thermometer in 1714. Anders Celsius first described
>the centigrade thermometer in 1742.
>
>2004 - 1709 = 295 So, thermometers have been in use for hundreds
>of years.
>
>Descriptions of medieval bread gathered by SCA members suggest
>that the nobility ate bread that most of us would enjoy.
>
>Here are some pointers..
>http://www.whirlwind-design.com/madb...eadfaq.html#Q2
>
>http://www.history.uk.com/recipes/index.php?archive=13
>
>http://www.bakersfederation.org.uk/Medieval_Times.aspx
>
>There are other sources available also. The information is skimpy, but
>not totally absent.
>
>Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for those most interesting links...

On the last I saw: "1400. Chaucer wrote The Miller's Tale, pointing to
the greedy ways of millers and their suspicious standing in society."

so at least some things have not changed <VBG>.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
snip
Are there comments about the gustatory delights of bread
> in older literature for example? Going back to ancient times, there
> certainly are such comments about any of a variety of other delights
> and those tell us about the perceptions of people alive at the time.
> The same might be true of bread.
snip
> Kenneth

This may be of interest

http://tinyurl.com/23khr

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:40:44 -0400, Kenneth wrote:

> On the last I saw: "1400. Chaucer wrote The Miller's Tale, pointing to
> the greedy ways of millers and their suspicious standing in society."

"We seeketh every house and every place

where as we hopeth for to finde our bred,

But we ne coud finde cept holes an aeir

which thae speakth as a holy graile

Damneth all miilers and thaer aeir"

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 16:38:35 -0700, "Tom Stanton"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >So forgive me for waxing - just thought it should be addressed (I'm not a
> >big fan of romanticism - unless its in Tennyson),
> >
> >Tom
> >
>
> Hi Tom,
>
> You say that you are not a "big fan of romanticism" <g> but you also
> mention "the bread produced over the ages has certainly been
> good" and "what some ancient master created" and those comments, I
> would respectfully suggest might indicate otherwise.
>

Ahh - exactly my point. I am not a fan of romanticism because I thoroughly
doubt the existence of "the ancient master." Also not being an expert in the
history of food - I would say that some pleasure must have been taken even
as early as Shakespeare. Unless we consider Falstaff to be something wholly
different than what his character suggests - there was at least some
pleasure related to food.

Granted, my statements had a certain romantic quality but I had hoped that
my satire was evident (curses, foiled again). Ahh well - back to the drawing
board.

Tom

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 07:15:33 -0700, "Tom Stanton"
> wrote:

>
>"Kenneth" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 16:38:35 -0700, "Tom Stanton"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >So forgive me for waxing - just thought it should be addressed (I'm not a
>> >big fan of romanticism - unless its in Tennyson),
>> >
>> >Tom
>> >
>>
>> Hi Tom,
>>
>> You say that you are not a "big fan of romanticism" <g> but you also
>> mention "the bread produced over the ages has certainly been
>> good" and "what some ancient master created" and those comments, I
>> would respectfully suggest might indicate otherwise.
>>
>
>Ahh - exactly my point. I am not a fan of romanticism because I thoroughly
>doubt the existence of "the ancient master." Also not being an expert in the
>history of food - I would say that some pleasure must have been taken even
>as early as Shakespeare. Unless we consider Falstaff to be something wholly
>different than what his character suggests - there was at least some
>pleasure related to food.
>
>Granted, my statements had a certain romantic quality but I had hoped that
>my satire was evident (curses, foiled again). Ahh well - back to the drawing
>board.
>
>Tom
>

Hi Tom,

I did, indeed, miss your intended ironic tone. Perhaps next time I
should listen to the pixels with more care <g>...

Thanks for your comments, and all the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 08:15:48 -0400, "gobadaba" >
wrote:

>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:40:44 -0400, Kenneth wrote:
>
>> On the last I saw: "1400. Chaucer wrote The Miller's Tale, pointing to
>> the greedy ways of millers and their suspicious standing in society."
>
> "We seeketh every house and every place
>
>where as we hopeth for to finde our bred,
>
>But we ne coud finde cept holes an aeir
>
>which thae speakth as a holy graile
>
>Damneth all miilers and thaer aeir"
>
>
>
>
Howdy,

Thanks for that! So our quest for the "big holes" goes back a ways...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 08:15:48 -0400, "gobadaba" >
> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:40:44 -0400, Kenneth wrote:
> >
> >> On the last I saw: "1400. Chaucer wrote The Miller's Tale, pointing to
> >> the greedy ways of millers and their suspicious standing in society."
> >
> > "We seeketh every house and every place
> >
> >where as we hopeth for to finde our bred,
> >
> >But we ne coud finde cept holes an aeir
> >
> >which thae speakth as a holy graile
> >
> >Damneth all miilers and thaer aeir"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Howdy,
>
> Thanks for that! So our quest for the "big holes" goes back a ways...
>
"And his kissing is as full of sanctity as the touch of holy bread"
As You Like It, III/4
I'm sure he meant "holey" ;-)

Cheers
Graham

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 16:33:44 GMT, "graham" > wrote:

>
>"Kenneth" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 08:15:48 -0400, "gobadaba" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:40:44 -0400, Kenneth wrote:
>> >
>> >> On the last I saw: "1400. Chaucer wrote The Miller's Tale, pointing to
>> >> the greedy ways of millers and their suspicious standing in society."
>> >
>> > "We seeketh every house and every place
>> >
>> >where as we hopeth for to finde our bred,
>> >
>> >But we ne coud finde cept holes an aeir
>> >
>> >which thae speakth as a holy graile
>> >
>> >Damneth all miilers and thaer aeir"
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> Howdy,
>>
>> Thanks for that! So our quest for the "big holes" goes back a ways...
>>
>"And his kissing is as full of sanctity as the touch of holy bread"
>As You Like It, III/4
>I'm sure he meant "holey" ;-)
>
>Cheers
>Graham
>
Hi Graham,

I will grant you the "holey" but are you sure about the "kissing?" <g>

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:08:40 -0500, williamwaller
> wrote:

>On 4/24/04 8:17 PM, "Mike Avery" > wrote:
>
>> On 24 Apr 2004 at 14:30, Kenneth wrote:
>>
>>> But none of us know what the breads of hundreds of years ago tasted
>>> like. My own strong suspicion is that they were vastly inferior to the
>>> best that is available today. And that is for several reasons:
>>
>>> We know how to measure and control the temperatures, they did not. We
>>> can produce grain with the characteristics we desire, they baked with
>>> the flour that grew in their area, and, by the way, that was often
>>> contaminated.
>>
>> Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit invented the alcohol thermometer in 1709
>> and the mercury thermometer in 1714. Anders Celsius first described
>> the centigrade thermometer in 1742.
>>
>> 2004 - 1709 = 295 So, thermometers have been in use for hundreds
>> of years.
>>
>> Descriptions of medieval bread gathered by SCA members suggest
>> that the nobility ate bread that most of us would enjoy.
>>
>> Here are some pointers..
>> http://www.whirlwind-design.com/madb...eadfaq.html#Q2
>>
>> http://www.history.uk.com/recipes/index.php?archive=13
>>
>> http://www.bakersfederation.org.uk/Medieval_Times.aspx
>>
>> There are other sources available also. The information is skimpy, but
>> not totally absent.
>>
>> Mike
>
>Thankyou Mike,
>
>I cannot imagine that the markets in Europe 150 years ago sold bread as
>worthless as what I see in the supermarket aisle today. No, make that 500
>years. The bread in grocery stores is pitiful.
>
>My original rant was not that we cannot make the best bread ever today. We
>can. But, in general, we have used technology to lower the standard, not
>raise it.
>
>Will
>
>

A big problem with food sources, historically, was not so much the
availablilty of top quality, as the consistancy of quality. Something
might be great, one day, and horrable the next, and it was quite
difficult to find out why. A top-quality baker, when the available
ingredients were top-quality, might produce bread as good as anything
made today. But not all bakers were top-quality. Ingredients could
vary, based on source, season, and the character of various suppliers.
And the buyer may, or may not, have had alternative sources available,
particularly since most of the population was pesants, living in tiny
villages.

Commercial bread isn't great. But it is never a disaster, either.
You don't need to worry about it being contaminated, or burned, or
having an unexpected change in texture, which might, in turn affect
how it works when you use it.

The appeal of commercial bread, or other processed foods such as
processed cheese, is based not on comparing to the best which can be
made the old fashioned way, but by comparing it to the range of
quality. If the bread you ate (at every meal, every day) varied
unpredictably from the best homemade sourdough you've ever had, to the
worst burnt hockey-pucks you've ever dumped (but dumping wasn't an
option) consistantly average has its appeal.

Fortunately food, these days, in much of the world, is pleantiful
enough for people who want a higher quality to be able to afford to
pay a premium for it, or to spend the time making it, even risking the
disaster of ruining a batch and wasting precious food.

Ursula

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 16:47:43 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:

>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 14:56:17 -0500, williamwaller
> wrote:
>
>>Haven't made Pain de Mie for a while, not since the yeast days. Mine wasn't
>>very good. But I love the Poilane formula you shared (fermenting some now)
>>and am willing to give PdM another shot if you have a good one.
>
>Hi Will,
>
>I am just in the process of modifying mine, and will report back
>shortly.
>
>All the best,

Hi again,

Here you go:

This is my levain naturel Pain de Mie. It is for the standard pullman
pan which is something like 4" x 4" x 16". As you may know, the whole
trick is getting the dough to rise just the right amount so that it
fully fills the pan.

This works for me -

Day 1 - 7pm 376g AP + 74g Starter (I use Poilne 100%) + 244g 2% milk

Mix above, and ferment at 72F.

Day 2 - 7am add 240g AP + 10g salt + 40g sugar + 1 egg yolk + 50g
melted butter. Knead fully. Put release on all surfaces of pan. Form
loaf, flatten into bottom of the pan trying to get it evenly
distributed.

Put on lid, then ferment at 78F for 3 hours 30 minutes.

Bake at 350F for 50 minutes.


I hope that you give it a try!

Please let me know,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."