I have just received my copy of HANDBOOK OF DOUGH FERMENTATINS. (NY :
Marcel Dekker, c.2003) and dekker.com.

At $170.00 I'm sure it's not within everybodies reach. But, it sure am
good!

Chapter 6, "Commercial Starters in the United States" is by T. Frank
Sugihara. OK, purists out there, "Commercial" means to use flour and
water to get your starter going, not some behemoth landing on your
genetic structure.

Brief tips, as I've only had the book 2 days:

Use some cooked yeast in your starter, the bread bugs need vitamin B
in "quantity". Take yeast 1-2 tsp., 1/4 tsp. sugar, add 1/2 C. of
water (di-hydrogen oxide). Allow to ferment 90 minutes. Bring it to a
boil. Allow to sit, covered on countertop, overnight. Strain off the
water and use it as part of the water for the starter. Leave the yeast
residue behind.

San Francisco style bread prefers a starter development temperature of
around 72 degrees F.

More interestingly, according to the work, it would be impossible for
Ed Wood's San Francisco dried starters to work. Or for anybody eles's
as well. Freeze drying kills the yeasts, the "fluidized bed" to make
yeast, kills the bacteria. So, it's unlikely that purchasing starter
will help. However, the Lesaffre Co. (France) has patented a process
to keep both LAB and yeast alive for use. We have tried some of their
products. As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, the yeast, S.
Chevalieri has been used due to it's "high flavoring potential" and is
a strain "isolated from spontaneous breadmaking sourdoughs".

Mark Preston wrote:

> San Francisco style bread prefers a starter development temperature of
> around 72 degrees F.

72 around here is called "summer." Last year it came on a weekend and
everybody was very excited about it.

62 is more like it. It may activate faster at 72, but 62 is quite
adequate.

B/

Mark Preston wrote:
>
>
> ... it would be impossible for
> Ed Wood's San Francisco dried starters to work. Or for anybody eles's
> as well. Freeze drying kills the yeasts, the "fluidized bed" to make
> yeast, kills the bacteria. So, it's unlikely that purchasing starter
> will help...

Well, drying and freezing is a bit different than freeze drying.
I believe Ed Wood just dries and some have reported luck getting
his cultures to revive. I have killed yeast cultures just by
freezing, but I have dried and frozen Carl's and revived it after
years in the freezer.

Even if freeze drying could be shown to kill all yeast cultures,
it is a long leap from there to say that purchased starter won't
work.

Once again, I have to choose between learned scientific authors
or my own lying eyes.

Wait 'til Ticker hears this.

Regards,

Charles



--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

(Mark Preston) wrote in message . com>...
> I have just received my copy of HANDBOOK OF DOUGH FERMENTATINS. (NY :
> Marcel Dekker, c.2003) and dekker.com.
>
> At $170.00 I'm sure it's not within everybodies reach. But, it sure am
> good!
>
> Chapter 6, "Commercial Starters in the United States" is by T. Frank
> Sugihara. OK, purists out there, "Commercial" means to use flour and
> water to get your starter going, not some behemoth landing on your
> genetic structure.
>
> Brief tips, as I've only had the book 2 days:
>
> Use some cooked yeast in your starter, the bread bugs need vitamin B
> in "quantity". Take yeast 1-2 tsp., 1/4 tsp. sugar, add 1/2 C. of
> water (di-hydrogen oxide). Allow to ferment 90 minutes. Bring it to a
> boil. Allow to sit, covered on countertop, overnight. Strain off the
> water and use it as part of the water for the starter. Leave the yeast
> residue behind.
>
> San Francisco style bread prefers a starter development temperature of
> around 72 degrees F.
>
> More interestingly, according to the work, it would be impossible for
> Ed Wood's San Francisco dried starters to work. Or for anybody eles's
> as well. Freeze drying kills the yeasts, the "fluidized bed" to make
> yeast, kills the bacteria. So, it's unlikely that purchasing starter
> will help. However, the Lesaffre Co. (France) has patented a process
> to keep both LAB and yeast alive for use. We have tried some of their
> products. As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, the yeast, S.
> Chevalieri has been used due to it's "high flavoring potential" and is
> a strain "isolated from spontaneous breadmaking sourdoughs".

The authors are respected cereal chemists, but do they have their own
papers related to sourdough in that book?

That's odd. I've had Ed Woods' San Francisco starter for a good many years,
and it works wonderfully. I lived in the Bay Area for many, many years, and
know and love SF sourdough, and my starter is as good as any in the Bay
Area. Tastes like it, too. I've also had Carl's for many years, and it works
just as well. Carl sent it to me years before he passed away.

My impression is that the Woods don't freeze dry their starters. They just
dry them, I'm told. Carl did, too.

For $170, this "handbook" sounds like a waste of money!

"Mark Preston" > wrote in message
om...
>
> More interestingly, according to the work, it would be impossible for
> Ed Wood's San Francisco dried starters to work. Or for anybody eles's
> as well. Freeze drying kills the yeasts, the "fluidized bed" to make

"Pawnee" > wrote in message =
...

> My impression is that the Woods don't freeze dry their starters. They =
just
> dry them, I'm told. Carl did, too.

Jean Wood, years ago, reported at r.f.s. that their long-term storage =
cultures
are fed every six months. My impression is that they are all kept in =
the same
fridge, and I wonder about their distinctness after all of these years.

Carl did propose to freeze some starter as a reserve against =
emergencies.
Please see: http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/canifree...mystarter.html
It has never been clear to me that he depended at any time on his frozen
reserve, but Charles Perry thinks he did, and reports having =
successfully
reactivated frozen specimens. Joan Ross has reported similarly. I have
reported my theory that any attempt to catch, or to revive a dead or =
nearly-
dead, culture may find the hardiest of whatever cultures may be lurking =
in
the local nooks and crannies. It is a reason why keepers of a classic=20
culture should keep it only, with no fooling around, and keep it quite =
active.
Those are rules for the official keepers of Carl's culture.

Frozen is not a unique condition. Pure water freezes quite differently =
than
dough or batter does. It seems to me that water tied up with dough =
structures
may hardly freeze at the temperature of kitchen freezers. Thus there =
may not
always be a big difference between frozen cultures and dried cultures.

Carl kept his dried cultures in the freezer as the orders came in, over =
a period
of several weeks. It would be difficult to conclude that the dried =
cultures were
totally dry, or that they would freeze in the freezer.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

Mark Preston wrote:
>
> I have just received my copy of HANDBOOK OF DOUGH FERMENTATINS. (NY :
> Marcel Dekker, c.2003) and dekker.com.

....

#1:

> More interestingly, according to the work, it would be impossible for
> Ed Wood's San Francisco dried starters to work.

#2:

> Or for anybody eles's
> as well. Freeze drying kills the yeasts, the "fluidized bed" to make
> yeast, kills the bacteria. So, it's unlikely that purchasing starter
> will help.

#3:

> However, the Lesaffre Co. (France) has patented a process
> to keep both LAB and yeast alive for use.

...

> We have tried some of their
> products. As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, the yeast, S.
> Chevalieri has been used due to it's "high flavoring potential" and is
> a strain "isolated from spontaneous breadmaking sourdoughs".

So:

1: Drying starters does not preserve the properties since the organisms
don't survive the dehydration.

2: Freeze drying is different from drying and does not work either.

3: A process patented by a company works!

Nice sequence for a spin if the excerpts would be representative for the
sourdough preservation topic in this book, which appears doubtful.

In any case, if #1 & # 2 would be true in every case, how would the
sourdoughs in conventionally-, freeze-dried and frozen forms be sellable
by sourdough vendors?

Or, if the processes would fail (with the exception of the patented
one), how could pure strains of organisms be preserved in depositories,
which apparently are freeze dried?

Or - if sourdough organisms living in their natural environment would
survive freezing?

Or - how sourdough organisms LB brevis, plantarum and Pediococcus
pentosaecus would become known for their specific property to be
resistant to drying and are transferable to and from dried forms?

The quotes # 1, # 2 given from the book may be true in a very narrow
context not visible from the excerpts. IMO, from a wider perspective
they definitely not hold any validity.

my 0.02 EUR

Samartha



--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

Samartha Deva <snip>

According to the book, the yeasts and bacteria are very incompatible
as to the processes used to preserve them.

Somewhere it said that when the "proper" micro-organisms have died,
what's left is a flavoring agent, but not a fermenter. Also, another
micro-organism "takes over" in place of the preferred ones.

It's a very interesting book. I wish I could scan some pages and put
them up here. Maybe I'll try to get hold of the author and see if
he'll give me a copyright release.

"Mark Preston" > wrote in message =
om...

> ... Somewhere it said that when the "proper" micro-organisms have =
died,
> what's left is a flavoring agent, but not a fermenter. Also, another
> micro-organism "takes over" in place of the preferred ones ...

Sounds pretty hopeless. Well, for those who may not know it already,
here are some pretty sure ways to beat the rap:

1. Get a live culture as an active dough.

2. Get a very freshly prepared dried start free.

3. Get a mail-order start with a good reputation for freshness.

For instance:

1. =
http://ww2.kingarthurflour.com/cgibi...7368580910617=
735

2. http://www.carlsfriends.org

3. Search for SDSYEAST at http://www.yankeeharvest.com/

Also 4. You may be able to catch a good culture from the environment, or =
from
some whole-grain organic flour, or grapes, or other stuff, if you are =
lucky.
For instance, see =
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howcanis...terfromsc.html

"Dick Adams" <snip>

You all seem paranoid sometimes.

From Chapter 5 "Baker's Yeast and Sourdough Technologies in the
Production of U.S. Bread Products".

Page 116:

"5. Starting a Sour in Bakeries" [which will do for homes as well --
MP]

Doerry [32,34], who recently investigated baking of breads with a
natural sour, described the starting of sour as follows: Only two
ingredients -- water and flour -- are needed to start a spontaneous
sour. Although whole grain flour (wheat or rye or its blends) is
preferred by most bakers because of the higher microbial count and
higher buffering capacity resulting form higher mineral salts content
than that of more purified flours, well-functioning starter can be
prepared from regular flours."

Doerry then goes on to specify the flour to water ratio, temperatures,
and replenishment timing requirements.

Enough of the r.f.s. "purists". See, a bakery can make "real"
sourdough. They just have an interest in making bread! (pun intended).

(Roy Basan) wrote in message <snip>

The authors are respected cereal chemists, but do they have their own
papers related to sourdough in that book?

Karel Kulp's Chapter (No. 5)

Bakery's Yeast and Sourdough Technologies in the Production of U.S. Bread Products.


Karl Lorenz' Chapter (No. 7)

Rey Bread: Fermentation Processes and Products in the United States.

My response to this posted below, under a response from Dick Adams.

"Mark Preston" > wrote in message =
om...

> My response to this posted below, under a response from Dick Adams.

> [ blank ]

Mark,.your response in this case seemed a bit vacuous.

Elsewhere=20
"Mark Preston" > wrote in message =
om...

> > "Dick Adams" <snip>

> You all seem paranoid sometimes.

Constant fear of being sold something too expensive and not needed.

Of being snipped.

Of WMDs being found (losing bet, must vote for GW).

Etc.

Please see:
http://www.post-trib.com/cgi-bin/pto...5-04_z1%5Fnei=
g%5F2.html

---
DickA

Mark Preston wrote:

> From Chapter 5 "Baker's Yeast and Sourdough Technologies in the
> Production of U.S. Bread Products".
>
> Page 116:
>
> Doerry [32,34], who recently investigated baking of breads with a
> natural sour, described the starting of sour as follows: Only two
> ingredients -- water and flour -- are needed to start a spontaneous
> sour. Although whole grain flour (wheat or rye or its blends) is
> preferred by most bakers because of the higher microbial count and
> higher buffering capacity resulting form higher mineral salts content
> than that of more purified flours, well-functioning starter can be
> prepared from regular flours."
>
> Doerry then goes on to specify the flour to water ratio, temperatures,
> and replenishment timing requirements.
>
OK is what is the flour to water ratio, temperatures and replenishment
timing per your new $170.00 book?

Forget Dick Adams, we already know his opinions.

Joe Umstead

Mark Preston wrote:
....
> "5. Starting a Sour in Bakeries" [which will do for homes as well --
> MP]
>
> Doerry [32,34], who recently investigated baking of breads with a natural sour

....

> and higher buffering capacity resulting

....

> well-functioning starter can be
> prepared from regular flours."

Thank you for your effort to inform. However, I find this quote labeled
"recent investigation" somewhat strange.

Spontaneous sourdough fermentation is ancient, more looked into,
scientifically researched and documented maybe for more than a century.
Looked upon in more detail as above (buffering) maybe half a century, so
what is the great news here?

I assume, there is more to it, although not visible from this quote.

Maybe you could enlighten (quote what is behind) the [32,34] references
- i. e. post the references verbatim (publication, issue, page),
normally in the back part of a book/article referenced by numbers in the
text, allowing more insights about the specifics addressed here.

As for copyright issues (for the sake of being redundant) - any brief
quotes as part of a discussion here IMO would fall under fair use
copyright and not require explicit permission from the authors (from
http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html ):

"quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of
illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or
technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author's
observations; use in a parody of some of the content of the work
parodied; summary of an address or article, with brief quotations, in a
news report; reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace
part of a damaged copy; reproduction by a teacher or student of a small
part of a work to illustrate a lesson; reproduction of a work in
legislative or judicial proceedings or reports; incidental and
fortuitous reproduction, in a newsreel or broadcast, of a work located
in the scene of an event being reported."

Scanning complete pages, as you mentioned, could be another issue.

> Doerry then goes on to specify the flour to water ratio, temperatures,
> and replenishment timing requirements.

What would interest me is if there are any references to germ counts in
US flours because apparently, there are big differences depending on
origin, processing- and weather conditions.

> Enough of the r.f.s. "purists". See, a bakery can make "real"
> sourdough. They just have an interest in making bread! (pun intended).

Was that ever a question?

One remark to your:

"At $170.00 I'm sure it's not within everybody's reach."

A much larger number of people (in US) will be able to effort (able to
reach) a $ 170.- expense than finding the benefit/price ratio attractive
or justified (deciding to purchase the item).


Samartha


--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

Joe > wrote in message >...

> OK is what is the flour to water ratio, temperatures and replenishment
> timing per your new $170.00 book?
>
> Forget Dick Adams, we already know his opinions.
>
> Joe Umstead

IMO these techical book is not suitable for the hobbyist but for the
baking professional who want to know more ideas about the technical
aspecst of fermented dough.
I would say that the price is relative anyway; reasonable for the
bakery professional but expensive for the baking hobbyist.
Roy

Roy Basan wrote:

> IMO these techical book is not suitable for the hobbyist but for the
> baking professional who want to know more ideas about the technical
> aspecst of fermented dough.

Your opinion in honor, if you need it, it's all yours. But I
respectfully disagree. I personally am a hobbyist, never even thinking
to surrender the freedom of "hobbying" to a commercial/money making
endeavor. Every role has it's drawbacks and benefits but overlaps can be
very fluid and there is no telling (IMO) where one ends and the other
starts, production volume out of question.

Under this umbrella, I have to say that I get a lot of insights from
research papers and professional books (mainly Sourdough Manual (German:
Handbuch Sauerteig - Spicher/Stephan). Something you label as "not
suitable".

You are apparently a professional, possibly retired baker. From where do
you arrogate the right to judge "suitability" of material for other
people's use and appetite?

Quite a telling and revealing statement, I would say.


Samartha



--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 17:25:17 -0700, Samartha Deva
> wrote:

>Roy Basan wrote:
>
>> IMO these techical book is not suitable for the hobbyist but for the
>> baking professional who want to know more ideas about the technical
>> aspecst of fermented dough.
>
>Your opinion in honor, if you need it, it's all yours. But I
>respectfully disagree. I personally am a hobbyist, never even thinking
>to surrender the freedom of "hobbying" to a commercial/money making
>endeavor. Every role has it's drawbacks and benefits but overlaps can be
>very fluid and there is no telling (IMO) where one ends and the other
>starts, production volume out of question.
>
>Under this umbrella, I have to say that I get a lot of insights from
>research papers and professional books (mainly Sourdough Manual (German:
>Handbuch Sauerteig - Spicher/Stephan). Something you label as "not
>suitable".
>
>You are apparently a professional, possibly retired baker. From where do
>you arrogate the right to judge "suitability" of material for other
>people's use and appetite?
>
>Quite a telling and revealing statement, I would say.
>
>
>Samartha
>

Hi Samartha,

I agree with you completely about those who "surrender the freedom of
'hobbying'" and was reminded of an experience I had years ago:

I have played string band music for nearly fifty years. When I moved
to my current home area about 27 years ago, I posted a note on local
bulletin boards (the thumb-tack kind) that said "Do you fiddle? If so,
please give me a call. I play clawhammer banjo..."

A few days later I heard from a fellow who turned out to be a
wonderful musician, and in a while, I was playing contra dances in the
local band. We played at dances once a month, and it was a delight.
Until, the gentleman who introduced me to the band decided to leave
his graduate school studies in psychology to pursue his interests in
music full time.

Well, you can guess the rest: The pleasures of the band vanished as it
became a business...

In fact, those with a commercial interest in most things are likely to
be vastly more restricted in their interests than would those who
engage the activity purely for pleasure. Of course those with a
commercial interest can experiment far less as their livelihood is at
stake. For the hobbyist, the opposite is true. What is there to risk?
Usually little more than a few minutes, and a few cents worth of
flour...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Samartha Deva > wrote in message >...


>
> Under this umbrella, I have to say that I get a lot of insights from
> research papers and professional books (mainly Sourdough Manual (German:
> Handbuch Sauerteig - Spicher/Stephan). Something you label as "not
> suitable".
There is always and exception to the rule….
But can you count on your fingers how many people who are just
hobbyist share the same interest as you?
Many of the individuals who share such interest cannot comprehend the
technical explanation in such books and would rather keep a safe
distance from it.
I doubt also if your level of technical competence and your limited
scope of your interest would find a technical book useful to you.
You only care about true sourdough and want to understand baking from
that point alone.. A bakery professional would take every information
with keen interest as they are all important to his work. But would
you do the same. I doubt it.
So if a hobbyist will complain that a certain professional book is
expensive but a true professional will find it reasonable;Then it
leads me to think that those people who dabble on such things but
complains about the reason in procuring it,find it not useful for
their practice of their hobby. And they can still perfectly practice
their art without the need for it.

>you arrogate the right to judge "suitability" of material for other
>ÿ people's use and appetite?
People( mostly professional) who really cares about such material do
not question the price of it. And if there is a hobbyist who do not
question it but buy it, even he has not much use to it but just for
the sake of collecting things in order to brag to his cohorts of his
supposed interests.

On the other hand....
You really need the book ? Then who prevent you from procuring it? But
when you have it in your possession and (I pray )you really are
capable to read and undestand it contents ( from cover to cover) ,I
hope that your phobia for baker's yeast will disappear.
Until now ,I cannot find any suitable reason why you extremely avoid
bakers yeast if you are not suffering from candidasis..
As this yeast phobia reminds me when I met a woman who had a
peculiar hypersensitivity; they avoid bakers yeast raised bread as
this tend to incite itchiness( onset of yeast infection) in her
reproductive organ.
Roy

On 3/29/04 2:42 PM, "Roy Basan" > wrote:

> Samartha Deva > wrote in message
> >...
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> Under this umbrella, I have to say that I get a lot of insights from
>> research papers and professional books (mainly Sourdough Manual (German:
>> Handbuch Sauerteig - Spicher/Stephan). Something you label as "not
>> suitable".
> There is always and exception to the rule=85.
> But can you count on your fingers how many people who are just
> hobbyist share the same interest as you?
> Many of the individuals who share such interest cannot comprehend the
> technical explanation in such books and would rather keep a safe
> distance from it.
> I doubt also if your level of technical competence and your limited
> scope of your interest would find a technical book useful to you.
> You only care about true sourdough and want to understand baking from
> that point alone.. A bakery professional would take every information
> with keen interest as they are all important to his work. But would
> you do the same. I doubt it.
> So if a hobbyist will complain that a certain professional book is
> expensive but a true professional will find it reasonable;Then it
> leads me to think that those people who dabble on such things but
> complains about the reason in procuring it,find it not useful for
> their practice of their hobby. And they can still perfectly practice
> their art without the need for it.
>=20
>> you arrogate the right to judge "suitability" of material for other
>> =FF people's use and appetite?
> People( mostly professional) who really cares about such material do
> not question the price of it. And if there is a hobbyist who do not
> question it but buy it, even he has not much use to it but just for
> the sake of collecting things in order to brag to his cohorts of his
> supposed interests.
>=20
> On the other hand....
> You really need the book ? Then who prevent you from procuring it? But
> when you have it in your possession and (I pray )you really are
> capable to read and undestand it contents ( from cover to cover) ,I
> hope that your phobia for baker's yeast will disappear.
> Until now ,I cannot find any suitable reason why you extremely avoid
> bakers yeast if you are not suffering from candidasis..
> As this yeast phobia reminds me when I met a woman who had a
> peculiar hypersensitivity; they avoid bakers yeast raised bread as
> this tend to incite itchiness( onset of yeast infection) in her
> reproductive organ.
> Roy

Can't speak to the reproductive organ issue but I did read something
interesting in the New York Times last week about glycemic levels. It
appears that naturally leavened breads do not register the same glucose
spike as commercially yeasted breads.

Will
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

"williamwaller" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.7.1080596813.229.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...

> [ ... ] (requoted stuff deleted)

> ... I did read something interesting in the New York Times last week=20
> about glycemic levels. It appears that naturally leavened breads do=20
> not register the same glucose spike as commercially yeasted breads.

Interesting if true. NYTimes search engine reported the following:
"There were no matches for your search unleavened AND (glucose OR=20
glycemic) / past 30 days."

Could the reference be made more specific?=20

---
DickA

P.S. There is no reason to quote an entire article in a reply, nor,
by the same token, the thread history.=20
=20

"Roy Basan" > wrote in message =
om...

> Until now ,I cannot find any suitable reason why you extremely avoid=20
> bakers yeast if you are not suffering from candidasis..
> As this yeast phobia reminds me when I met a woman who had a =20
> peculiar hypersensitivity; they avoid bakers yeast raised bread as
> this tend to incite itchiness( onset of yeast infection) in her
> reproductive organ.

That might be the reason for precluding them from professional bakeries,
not only on account of the commotion due to itching and scratching, but,
if that stuff (candida) ever got into the bread yeast or sourdough =
culture,=20
it could cause an epidemic (itching and scratching all over the =
countryside)..

Boys, some of you are getting way off topic, given that I'm trying to
give what info I can find time for.

I don't know 'nothing 'bout hobbies, clawhammer, etc.

I also now believe that (M)Ad-dams/Samartha can't be pleased, so I
quit with them so to speak. See first the problem is "it's patented"
and "ain't natural" and next, "it's already been done"

DUH! I guess the professional cerial chemists, scientists, research
fellows and lovers of sourdough can't be trusted, read, accepted,
understood. Give (M)ad-dams citing r.f.s. FAQ, which is sometims
directly quoting Ganzle, Spicher, etc. you'ld think reading what thest
newer researchrs/writers had to say wasn't worth much.

My first post about this said the books "out of sight" price wise. I'm
trying to share what few tips I think "home" bakers can use.

Did I mention it has Raymond Clavel (Cavel?) in translation? I don't
think anybody here talked about that before. Ahhh forget it, I'm
disgusted. R.F.S. ain't what it used to be.

As for the poster who asked for the times/temps/refreshment schedule.

I would try to post it, but it's in tabular form and very hard to put
into a ng posting. If you really want it, email me directly with
name/address and I will copy that page(s) and send it to you.

Don't nobody else ask. He's got dibs.

"Mark Preston" > wrote in message =
om...

> Boys, some of you are getting way off topic, given that I'm trying to
> give what info I can find time for.

Now there's public-spiritedness! Finding time! Giving! Wow!

> ... I also now believe that (M)Ad-dams/Samartha can't be pleased ...

But *titillated* is a possibility.

> ... Give (M)ad-dams citing r.f.s. FAQ, which is sometims
> directly quoting Ganzle, Spicher, etc. you'ld think reading what thest
> newer researchrs/writers had to say wasn't worth much.

Well if you can paraphrase or precis it, we can probably get it into=20
the FAQs.

> I'm trying to share what few tips I think "home" bakers can use.

You think a lousy few tips will do it? Heck, us home bakers need
whole courses, not just a few measly little tips. =20

> Did I mention it has Raymond Clavel (Cavel?) in translation? I don't
> think anybody here talked about that before.

Name dropping is good, but spelling of dropped names needs=20
more work.

> Ahhh forget it, I'm disgusted. R.F.S. ain't what it used to be.

You mean, like before you got here?

: )

> As for the poster who asked for the times/temps/refreshment schedule.
> I would try to post it, but it's in tabular form and very hard to put
> into a ng posting.=20

Well, you could make a HTML table, and post it somewhere, or send it
to Samartha -- he posts OP stuff, 'cause he is truly magnanimous.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message >...
> "Roy Basan" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> > Until now ,I cannot find any suitable reason why you extremely avoid
> > bakers yeast if you are not suffering from candidasis..
> > As this yeast phobia reminds me when I met a woman who had a
> > peculiar hypersensitivity; they avoid bakers yeast raised bread as
> > this tend to incite itchiness( onset of yeast infection) in her
> > reproductive organ.
>
> That might be the reason for precluding them from professional bakeries,
> not only on account of the commotion due to itching and scratching, but,
> if that stuff (candida) ever got into the bread yeast or sourdough
> culture,
> it could cause an epidemic (itching and scratching all over the
> countryside)..

That is funny Dick<g>.
( if that ever happens) bakers (male and female ) will be scratching
all over the bakery instead of minding the dough;
they will knead their genitals for relief<g>.
On the other hand,
the males are fortunate....
I am not aware that the men have sensitivity to candida albicans.AS
far as I know, I think its only a problem with the fairer sex.

But in this particular case she was not a baker but a consumer.And its
not only candida albicans that is the only cause of her problem but
other yeast made goods.
It is indeed strange....
That particular lady after she has eaten common homemade or bakery
bread an allergic symptoms just arise.
It is just sensitivity to yeast containing foods.
It is not gluten,flour and other cereals as he is fond of eating other
wheat flour bakery products with no reaction except it was pinpointed
that the root of her misery is all yeast raised goods in particular
those leavened by bakers yeast.
Meanwhile... it is suprising that
True Sourdough bread gave her only a mild allergic reaction
..When (in fact)the wild yeast candida milliere which is part of
the leavening agent in sourdough is partly related to candida
albicans according to yeast classification.

As she is a teetotaler I am not aware if drinking beer, wine and other
spirits could exhibit the same allergic result...
Roy

Roy Basan wrote:

> On the other hand,
> the males are fortunate....
> I am not aware that the men have sensitivity to candida albicans.AS
> far as I know, I think its only a problem with the fairer sex.

Systemic candidiasis can affect more than a woman's reproductive organs,
and does affect men as well as women. It is a fungus that normally
resides without problem in the intestine in humans. It only causes
trouble when the body's immune and digestive system go wrong somehow and
allows overgrowth of the fungus to parts of the body where it is not
supposed to be.

informative link for any interested:
http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic76.htm

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:53:06 GMT, HeatherInSwampscott
> wrote:

>Roy Basan wrote:
>
>> On the other hand,
>> the males are fortunate....
>> I am not aware that the men have sensitivity to candida albicans.AS
>> far as I know, I think its only a problem with the fairer sex.
>
>Systemic candidiasis can affect more than a woman's reproductive organs,
>and does affect men as well as women. It is a fungus that normally
>resides without problem in the intestine in humans. It only causes
>trouble when the body's immune and digestive system go wrong somehow and
>allows overgrowth of the fungus to parts of the body where it is not
>supposed to be.
>
>informative link for any interested:
>http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic76.htm
>
>Heather
>_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom


And is a common mouth or throat affliction of babies or those with
compromised immune systems. It is often called "thrush," in its oral
form.

Boron

<snip>

The yeasts, recently added to the genera Candia are many. The yeast
infection you are speaking of has nothing to do with Pacific Slope Old
Fashioned San Francisco Sourdough bread.

A search at the ATCC for the term: candida returned the following:

"The search engine found 5056 entries for candida. "

Try it yourself:

http://www.atcc.org/SearchCatalogs/Fungi_Yeasts.cfm

Before I got here?


> Well, you could make a HTML table, and post it somewhere, or send it
> to Samartha -- he posts OP stuff, 'cause he is truly magnanimous.

I'ld really like to, but don't know HTML. If I sent you a copy, Dick,
would you be willing to do it?

Mark Preston wrote:

> Before I got here?
>
>
>
>>Well, you could make a HTML table, and post it somewhere, or send it
>>to Samartha -- he posts OP stuff, 'cause he is truly magnanimous.
>
>
> I'ld really like to, but don't know HTML. If I sent you a copy, Dick,
> would you be willing to do it?

I'd be happy to write a script to do it. Send me the data. I'll slice
and dice it and put it out on the web.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

"Mark Preston" > wrote in message =
om...

> I'ld really like to, but don't know HTML. If I sent you a copy, Dick,
> would you be willing to do it?

That stuff is probably too rich for my blood. I am trying to get some =
of
my stuff onto HTML pages. It is really pretty easy, since MSWord will
output an HTML page from a Word document. Possibly a table from your
book could be scanned and OCRed to MSWord. OCR software comes
with most scanners, but doing a good job on tables might take the deluxe
edition. Also of interest: some of today's OCR software can output=20
*.PDF files.

You don't have to know too much if you have got the software, or can
get the use of it. One of my resources is the place I worked before=20
retiring. (They are still happy enough to see me because I was wise
enough not to reveal all of my secrets before I left.)

Creating a table de novo from MSWord is very easy once you learn how.

Otherwise, it appears that "Reg" is willing to do the job if you send =
him
a copy.

---
DickA

P.S. I am sending you as an email attachment a copy of a MSWord =
document
with a table. You might comment upon it by email, and also try =
outputting it as
an HTML file from MSWord, assuming you have that. If you don't, you can
download a reader for MSWord from www.microsoft.com

Reg >

> I'd be happy to write a script to do it. Send me the data. I'll slice
> and dice it and put it out on the web


First, thanks.

Second, the scanner does not have OCR, sad to say. (for D.A.)

Third, If I type it into an email, I guess, but could I send the
scanned page? I apologize if this comes off as lazy, but I have only
my free time for this enterprise.

Thanks to all for the interest.

Mark Preston wrote:

> Third, If I type it into an email, I guess, but could I send the
> scanned page? I apologize if this comes off as lazy, but I have only
> my free time for this enterprise.

If it's a good quality scan I should be able to OCR it with good
results. Send along a good description of the data so I can mark
it up properly.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

(Mark Preston) wrote in message . com>...
> <snip>
>
> The yeasts, recently added to the genera Candia are many. The yeast
> infection you are speaking of has nothing to do with Pacific Slope Old
> Fashioned San Francisco Sourdough bread.
>
> A search at the ATCC for the term: candida returned the following:
>
> "The search engine found 5056 entries for candida. "
>
> Try it yourself:
>
> http://www.atcc.org/SearchCatalogs/Fungi_Yeasts.cfm

Indeed it has nothing to do with sourdough yeast.
But the name candida is attractive and effeminate.


The san francisco sourdough yeast can have varied nomenclature, such
as Saccharmoyces Exiguus, Torulopsis holmii, candida milliere etc.

But I doubt about that so called 5066 entries you said.
If you just search the URL ATCC, you are shown a horde of yeast that
includes not only candida but also other varieties.
If you look at a textbook The Chemistry and Biology of Yeast candida
is composed usually of C .
albicans,parapsilosis,pseudotropicalis,reukaufi,pu lcherima,tropicalis,pseudotropicalis,guiellermondi ,lipolytica,rogusa,nycoderma,krusei,
and others never reach the hundred in varieties.
maybe the yeast book is old
So where did you get the other thousands of Candida?

A search engine if compared to a specialised book of the topic is an
inaccurate way to look for facts.

Therefore I think its better that you help me sing....
that old song. IIRC titled Candida

...Intead of worrying about that pathogenic yeast.C albicans.
Maybe you can still help me remember the lyrics.....
IIRC

I am just an ordinary man....trying hard to make you...
my first prize.......
Wooooh..... Candida.... take my hand and I led ya.
I promise everything will be better.....hmmnnnn
Roy

Roy Basan wrote in message: <snip>

Roy,

Searching the CBS:

http://www.belspo.be/bccm/index.htm

A brief search of that culture collection for the word "candida"
returned the following:

1076 strain(s) found - displaying strain(s) 1 through 20

The ATCC "said" they had 5000 +/- references. But on review, I agree,
there may be multiple uses, and fewer types. Still, my research points
to a huge shift of yeast into the Candida genera.

Yours truly,

Mammal Homo Sapiens Male
M.Preston

Dear Reg:

I apologize for not understanding whose free email service your
e-address is at, but, I will be happy to send you the page(s), drop me
a private email, my address is as above, make the subject, please,
SOURDOUGH, and I'll get either a tiff, jpg or whatever you like ASAP,
just let me know.

Mark Preston wrote:


> I apologize for not understanding whose free email service your
> e-address is at, but, I will be happy to send you the page(s), drop me
> a private email, my address is as above, make the subject, please,
> SOURDOUGH, and I'll get either a tiff, jpg or whatever you like ASAP,
> just let me know.

Done.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

Mark Preston wrote:

> Dear Reg:
>
> I apologize for not understanding whose free email service your
> e-address is at, but, I will be happy to send you the page(s), drop me
> a private email, my address is as above, make the subject, please,
> SOURDOUGH, and I'll get either a tiff, jpg or whatever you like ASAP,
> just let me know.

Mail to emarkpreston at yahoo just bounced.

Mark, please send the jpg(s) to regforte at hotmail.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

Dear Reg:

I have the phone number for one of the authors and am going to ask for
his permission to reproduce some of the work. That will be sometime
in the coming week. I'll start calling Monday A.M. As soon as I can
get it, I'll scan it and send it along.

Dear Mr. Adams:

Am in receipt of an email with attachment. I tried to open it and I
saw a picture of a slice of bread and a ruler. Sadly, I'm not enough
of a computer knerd? gnerd? ne/u-rd to know what to do. But please
stand-by. Reg and I will get the job done.

There are three superscripts in the following table. In the book they
are labeled, a, b, and c. Having no way to make a superscript letter,
I have denominated them by: sup.a, b, c.

From the Chapter "Baker's Yeast adn Sourdough in U.S. Bread Products"
/ Karel Kulp.

Page 117-

Table 6 Development of Sourdough Starter

__________________________________________________ ________________________
Maturing Temp.
time (h) (F/C) Amount (WU) sup.a
__________________________________________________ ________________________

Starter sup.b Flour Water
Total
24 95/35 -- 1 1.25
2.25
8 95/35 2.25 1 1.25
4.50
16 95/35 4.50 2 2.50
9.00
__________________________________________________ ________________________

8 80/27 9.00 sup.c 16 20 45
16 80/27 45 80 100 225
8 80/27 225 400 500 1125
16 80/27 1125 2000 2500 5625
8 80/27 5625 10000 12500 28125
16 80/27 28125 50000 62500 140625
8 80/27 140625 250000 312500 703125

16-64 39/4 703125 703125

sup.a - Weight units (WU) based on any unit: gram, kilogram, ounce or
pound
sup.b - In [the] first two replenishments, the flour and water are
doubled
sup.c - In subsequent replenishments, the multiplier 4 is used (the
multiplier is the amount of flour and water added to sourdough starter
in the replinishment steps). The rate of replenishment increases the
total starter fivefold.
Source: Ref. 32.

[slightly above the table in the original text -- M.Preston]

"The development of natural sour is outlined in Table 6, which
details flour water ratios, temperature, and maturing times. According
to this schedule, the staring flour-water blend is set at 82-85
degrees F. (28-30 degrees C.) and kept at 90-95 degrees F. (32-35
degrees C.) for 24h. During that time, some acidity develops. At that
point the flour-water blend must be supplied with additional fresh
flour and water . . .

Replenished starters are best set and kept at 75-80 degrees F.
(24-27 degrees C.) Nonrefrigerated sourdoughs after reaching maturity
should be kept at cooler temperatures and must be replenished at least
daily . . .

Development of a properly matured starter does not only require
an achievement of the proper degree of acidity, generally indicated by
pH values within 3.6. to 3.8, and total titratable acidity of 16-20mL
.. . . even after this stage has been reached, development requires an
additional 6-8 replenishments with maturing at 80 degrees F. for full
flavor and leavening quality."

.. . . means I've left out some words.

I've not left anything important out. If the author will allow, maybe
I will go to a friend's house and do the OCR bit and repost, it's just
I don't see how this Google/groups will do that.

I hope this helps our sour'd friends.