I have just received my copy of HANDBOOK OF DOUGH FERMENTATINS. (NY :
Marcel Dekker, c.2003) and dekker.com.

At $170.00 I'm sure it's not within everybodies reach. But, it sure am
good!

Chapter 6, "Commercial Starters in the United States" is by T. Frank
Sugihara. OK, purists out there, "Commercial" means to use flour and
water to get your starter going, not some behemoth landing on your
genetic structure.

Brief tips, as I've only had the book 2 days:

Use some cooked yeast in your starter, the bread bugs need vitamin B
in "quantity". Take yeast 1-2 tsp., 1/4 tsp. sugar, add 1/2 C. of
water (di-hydrogen oxide). Allow to ferment 90 minutes. Bring it to a
boil. Allow to sit, covered on countertop, overnight. Strain off the
water and use it as part of the water for the starter. Leave the yeast
residue behind.

San Francisco style bread prefers a starter development temperature of
around 72 degrees F.

More interestingly, according to the work, it would be impossible for
Ed Wood's San Francisco dried starters to work. Or for anybody eles's
as well. Freeze drying kills the yeasts, the "fluidized bed" to make
yeast, kills the bacteria. So, it's unlikely that purchasing starter
will help. However, the Lesaffre Co. (France) has patented a process
to keep both LAB and yeast alive for use. We have tried some of their
products. As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, the yeast, S.
Chevalieri has been used due to it's "high flavoring potential" and is
a strain "isolated from spontaneous breadmaking sourdoughs".

Mark Preston wrote:

> San Francisco style bread prefers a starter development temperature of
> around 72 degrees F.

72 around here is called "summer." Last year it came on a weekend and
everybody was very excited about it.

62 is more like it. It may activate faster at 72, but 62 is quite
adequate.

B/

Mark Preston wrote:
>
>
> ... it would be impossible for
> Ed Wood's San Francisco dried starters to work. Or for anybody eles's
> as well. Freeze drying kills the yeasts, the "fluidized bed" to make
> yeast, kills the bacteria. So, it's unlikely that purchasing starter
> will help...

Well, drying and freezing is a bit different than freeze drying.
I believe Ed Wood just dries and some have reported luck getting
his cultures to revive. I have killed yeast cultures just by
freezing, but I have dried and frozen Carl's and revived it after
years in the freezer.

Even if freeze drying could be shown to kill all yeast cultures,
it is a long leap from there to say that purchased starter won't
work.

Once again, I have to choose between learned scientific authors
or my own lying eyes.

Wait 'til Ticker hears this.

Regards,

Charles



--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

(Mark Preston) wrote in message . com>...
> I have just received my copy of HANDBOOK OF DOUGH FERMENTATINS. (NY :
> Marcel Dekker, c.2003) and dekker.com.
>
> At $170.00 I'm sure it's not within everybodies reach. But, it sure am
> good!
>
> Chapter 6, "Commercial Starters in the United States" is by T. Frank
> Sugihara. OK, purists out there, "Commercial" means to use flour and
> water to get your starter going, not some behemoth landing on your
> genetic structure.
>
> Brief tips, as I've only had the book 2 days:
>
> Use some cooked yeast in your starter, the bread bugs need vitamin B
> in "quantity". Take yeast 1-2 tsp., 1/4 tsp. sugar, add 1/2 C. of
> water (di-hydrogen oxide). Allow to ferment 90 minutes. Bring it to a
> boil. Allow to sit, covered on countertop, overnight. Strain off the
> water and use it as part of the water for the starter. Leave the yeast
> residue behind.
>
> San Francisco style bread prefers a starter development temperature of
> around 72 degrees F.
>
> More interestingly, according to the work, it would be impossible for
> Ed Wood's San Francisco dried starters to work. Or for anybody eles's
> as well. Freeze drying kills the yeasts, the "fluidized bed" to make
> yeast, kills the bacteria. So, it's unlikely that purchasing starter
> will help. However, the Lesaffre Co. (France) has patented a process
> to keep both LAB and yeast alive for use. We have tried some of their
> products. As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, the yeast, S.
> Chevalieri has been used due to it's "high flavoring potential" and is
> a strain "isolated from spontaneous breadmaking sourdoughs".

The authors are respected cereal chemists, but do they have their own
papers related to sourdough in that book?

(Roy Basan) wrote in message <snip>

The authors are respected cereal chemists, but do they have their own
papers related to sourdough in that book?

Karel Kulp's Chapter (No. 5)

Bakery's Yeast and Sourdough Technologies in the Production of U.S. Bread Products.


Karl Lorenz' Chapter (No. 7)

Rey Bread: Fermentation Processes and Products in the United States.

That's odd. I've had Ed Woods' San Francisco starter for a good many years,
and it works wonderfully. I lived in the Bay Area for many, many years, and
know and love SF sourdough, and my starter is as good as any in the Bay
Area. Tastes like it, too. I've also had Carl's for many years, and it works
just as well. Carl sent it to me years before he passed away.

My impression is that the Woods don't freeze dry their starters. They just
dry them, I'm told. Carl did, too.

For $170, this "handbook" sounds like a waste of money!

"Mark Preston" > wrote in message
om...
>
> More interestingly, according to the work, it would be impossible for
> Ed Wood's San Francisco dried starters to work. Or for anybody eles's
> as well. Freeze drying kills the yeasts, the "fluidized bed" to make

"Pawnee" > wrote in message =
...

> My impression is that the Woods don't freeze dry their starters. They =
just
> dry them, I'm told. Carl did, too.

Jean Wood, years ago, reported at r.f.s. that their long-term storage =
cultures
are fed every six months. My impression is that they are all kept in =
the same
fridge, and I wonder about their distinctness after all of these years.

Carl did propose to freeze some starter as a reserve against =
emergencies.
Please see: http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/canifree...mystarter.html
It has never been clear to me that he depended at any time on his frozen
reserve, but Charles Perry thinks he did, and reports having =
successfully
reactivated frozen specimens. Joan Ross has reported similarly. I have
reported my theory that any attempt to catch, or to revive a dead or =
nearly-
dead, culture may find the hardiest of whatever cultures may be lurking =
in
the local nooks and crannies. It is a reason why keepers of a classic=20
culture should keep it only, with no fooling around, and keep it quite =
active.
Those are rules for the official keepers of Carl's culture.

Frozen is not a unique condition. Pure water freezes quite differently =
than
dough or batter does. It seems to me that water tied up with dough =
structures
may hardly freeze at the temperature of kitchen freezers. Thus there =
may not
always be a big difference between frozen cultures and dried cultures.

Carl kept his dried cultures in the freezer as the orders came in, over =
a period
of several weeks. It would be difficult to conclude that the dried =
cultures were
totally dry, or that they would freeze in the freezer.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

Mark Preston wrote:
>
> I have just received my copy of HANDBOOK OF DOUGH FERMENTATINS. (NY :
> Marcel Dekker, c.2003) and dekker.com.

....

#1:

> More interestingly, according to the work, it would be impossible for
> Ed Wood's San Francisco dried starters to work.

#2:

> Or for anybody eles's
> as well. Freeze drying kills the yeasts, the "fluidized bed" to make
> yeast, kills the bacteria. So, it's unlikely that purchasing starter
> will help.

#3:

> However, the Lesaffre Co. (France) has patented a process
> to keep both LAB and yeast alive for use.

...

> We have tried some of their
> products. As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, the yeast, S.
> Chevalieri has been used due to it's "high flavoring potential" and is
> a strain "isolated from spontaneous breadmaking sourdoughs".

So:

1: Drying starters does not preserve the properties since the organisms
don't survive the dehydration.

2: Freeze drying is different from drying and does not work either.

3: A process patented by a company works!

Nice sequence for a spin if the excerpts would be representative for the
sourdough preservation topic in this book, which appears doubtful.

In any case, if #1 & # 2 would be true in every case, how would the
sourdoughs in conventionally-, freeze-dried and frozen forms be sellable
by sourdough vendors?

Or, if the processes would fail (with the exception of the patented
one), how could pure strains of organisms be preserved in depositories,
which apparently are freeze dried?

Or - if sourdough organisms living in their natural environment would
survive freezing?

Or - how sourdough organisms LB brevis, plantarum and Pediococcus
pentosaecus would become known for their specific property to be
resistant to drying and are transferable to and from dried forms?

The quotes # 1, # 2 given from the book may be true in a very narrow
context not visible from the excerpts. IMO, from a wider perspective
they definitely not hold any validity.

my 0.02 EUR

Samartha



--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

Samartha Deva <snip>

According to the book, the yeasts and bacteria are very incompatible
as to the processes used to preserve them.

Somewhere it said that when the "proper" micro-organisms have died,
what's left is a flavoring agent, but not a fermenter. Also, another
micro-organism "takes over" in place of the preferred ones.

It's a very interesting book. I wish I could scan some pages and put
them up here. Maybe I'll try to get hold of the author and see if
he'll give me a copyright release.

"Mark Preston" > wrote in message =
om...

> ... Somewhere it said that when the "proper" micro-organisms have =
died,
> what's left is a flavoring agent, but not a fermenter. Also, another
> micro-organism "takes over" in place of the preferred ones ...

Sounds pretty hopeless. Well, for those who may not know it already,
here are some pretty sure ways to beat the rap:

1. Get a live culture as an active dough.

2. Get a very freshly prepared dried start free.

3. Get a mail-order start with a good reputation for freshness.

For instance:

1. =
http://ww2.kingarthurflour.com/cgibi...7368580910617=
735

2. http://www.carlsfriends.org

3. Search for SDSYEAST at http://www.yankeeharvest.com/

Also 4. You may be able to catch a good culture from the environment, or =
from
some whole-grain organic flour, or grapes, or other stuff, if you are =
lucky.
For instance, see =
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howcanis...terfromsc.html

"Dick Adams" <snip>

You all seem paranoid sometimes.

From Chapter 5 "Baker's Yeast and Sourdough Technologies in the
Production of U.S. Bread Products".

Page 116:

"5. Starting a Sour in Bakeries" [which will do for homes as well --
MP]

Doerry [32,34], who recently investigated baking of breads with a
natural sour, described the starting of sour as follows: Only two
ingredients -- water and flour -- are needed to start a spontaneous
sour. Although whole grain flour (wheat or rye or its blends) is
preferred by most bakers because of the higher microbial count and
higher buffering capacity resulting form higher mineral salts content
than that of more purified flours, well-functioning starter can be
prepared from regular flours."

Doerry then goes on to specify the flour to water ratio, temperatures,
and replenishment timing requirements.

Enough of the r.f.s. "purists". See, a bakery can make "real"
sourdough. They just have an interest in making bread! (pun intended).

Mark Preston wrote:

> From Chapter 5 "Baker's Yeast and Sourdough Technologies in the
> Production of U.S. Bread Products".
>
> Page 116:
>
> Doerry [32,34], who recently investigated baking of breads with a
> natural sour, described the starting of sour as follows: Only two
> ingredients -- water and flour -- are needed to start a spontaneous
> sour. Although whole grain flour (wheat or rye or its blends) is
> preferred by most bakers because of the higher microbial count and
> higher buffering capacity resulting form higher mineral salts content
> than that of more purified flours, well-functioning starter can be
> prepared from regular flours."
>
> Doerry then goes on to specify the flour to water ratio, temperatures,
> and replenishment timing requirements.
>
OK is what is the flour to water ratio, temperatures and replenishment
timing per your new $170.00 book?

Forget Dick Adams, we already know his opinions.

Joe Umstead

Mark Preston wrote:
....
> "5. Starting a Sour in Bakeries" [which will do for homes as well --
> MP]
>
> Doerry [32,34], who recently investigated baking of breads with a natural sour

....

> and higher buffering capacity resulting

....

> well-functioning starter can be
> prepared from regular flours."

Thank you for your effort to inform. However, I find this quote labeled
"recent investigation" somewhat strange.

Spontaneous sourdough fermentation is ancient, more looked into,
scientifically researched and documented maybe for more than a century.
Looked upon in more detail as above (buffering) maybe half a century, so
what is the great news here?

I assume, there is more to it, although not visible from this quote.

Maybe you could enlighten (quote what is behind) the [32,34] references
- i. e. post the references verbatim (publication, issue, page),
normally in the back part of a book/article referenced by numbers in the
text, allowing more insights about the specifics addressed here.

As for copyright issues (for the sake of being redundant) - any brief
quotes as part of a discussion here IMO would fall under fair use
copyright and not require explicit permission from the authors (from
http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html ):

"quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of
illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or
technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author's
observations; use in a parody of some of the content of the work
parodied; summary of an address or article, with brief quotations, in a
news report; reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace
part of a damaged copy; reproduction by a teacher or student of a small
part of a work to illustrate a lesson; reproduction of a work in
legislative or judicial proceedings or reports; incidental and
fortuitous reproduction, in a newsreel or broadcast, of a work located
in the scene of an event being reported."

Scanning complete pages, as you mentioned, could be another issue.

> Doerry then goes on to specify the flour to water ratio, temperatures,
> and replenishment timing requirements.

What would interest me is if there are any references to germ counts in
US flours because apparently, there are big differences depending on
origin, processing- and weather conditions.

> Enough of the r.f.s. "purists". See, a bakery can make "real"
> sourdough. They just have an interest in making bread! (pun intended).

Was that ever a question?

One remark to your:

"At $170.00 I'm sure it's not within everybody's reach."

A much larger number of people (in US) will be able to effort (able to
reach) a $ 170.- expense than finding the benefit/price ratio attractive
or justified (deciding to purchase the item).


Samartha


--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

My response to this posted below, under a response from Dick Adams.

"Mark Preston" > wrote in message =
om...

> My response to this posted below, under a response from Dick Adams.

> [ blank ]

Mark,.your response in this case seemed a bit vacuous.

Elsewhere=20
"Mark Preston" > wrote in message =
om...

> > "Dick Adams" <snip>

> You all seem paranoid sometimes.

Constant fear of being sold something too expensive and not needed.

Of being snipped.

Of WMDs being found (losing bet, must vote for GW).

Etc.

Please see:
http://www.post-trib.com/cgi-bin/pto...5-04_z1%5Fnei=
g%5F2.html

---
DickA