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Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
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"Another Newbie" has First Success
After the many helpful suggestions I received when I last posted, I am
happy to report some real success. I'd thought I'd share my most recent experience in some detail to show how I got to this point. Although I'm fairly experienced at making yeast breads, I am very, very new to trying my hand at sourdoughs. I know I have much to learn and that much of what follows will make that abundently clear! I'm pretty sure that my luck was due to the bread faeries and not anything I did! <g> (Forgive me, in advance, once again for a rather long post.) As mentioned in my earlier posts, I had made a wheat starter that I hadn't been able to use successfully to produce a decent true sourdough bread, although it was very successful in a mixed sourdough/baker's yeast recipe. The problem I was having with the pure sourdough was getting the starter active enough to produce proper rise. The taste of the loaves I made was very authentically "sour," but the bread itself was very much a brick. For reference, the base of this starter was the barm recipe from Reinhart's Bread Baker's Apprentice. Although I have ordered the Carl's starter, I wanted to try some experiments with making a couple of my own starters from scratch. These experiments involved both modifying my existing starter and beginning a new rye starter using Samartha's formula from his web site. The remainder of this post deals only with the modifications to my original starter and the subsequent first use to bake bread. I began by taking 4 oz. my old wheat starter and fed it with 4 oz. each of whole rye (Arrowhead) and bottled spring water. I placed this in a clean clear plastic covered container. I checked on this starter hourly for the next few hours. At 3 hours, a small amount of additional moisture began appearing on the surface. Some very, very small imbedded bubbles (no surface bubbles) appeared after 6 hours, but no swelling. After 9 hours, there seemed to be a little "softening" of the starter mixture and maybe a tiny bit of swelling, with a little bit more softening and movement after another hour. I haven't found a way yet to maintain consistent temperatures within the recommended 80f - 85f range. So, all of the above took place at ambient temps ranging from 85f at the beginning down to 75f after 10 hours, with most of the time in the 80 to 82 degree range. I went to bed at this point. In the morning (9 hours later), there was no noticeable change in the appearance of the starter. The ambient temperature was 66f. Two and a half hours later, the temperature had risen to 80f, but there was no noticeable change. At this point, I took 4oz of the starter, threw the rest away, and fed with 4oz each whole rye (Arrowhead) and spring water. After about 2 hours at 75f, there was a slight softening and more moisture appearing on the surface. Around 7 hours later, there were some small bubbles. The temp had fallen to 70f. There were no further changes over the next 3 hours, at which point I went to bed. There was no further visable activity at all during the next 30 hours....yes, I mean 30 hours! A half hour later, however, things had changed! There was lots of bubbling and the starter had nearly doubled in volume. Since it was my intention to return this to more of a wheat starter, I immediately fed it with 4oz each of stone ground whole wheat (KA) and spring water. Four hours later, the starter had nearly tripled and I put it in the fridge overnight. The next day (yesterday), I took the starter out of the fridge and let it warm up on the counter for about 3 hours at which point there was moderate activity. I then used 4oz to make the "firm starter" for the Basic Sourdough Bread recipe from BBA, pg. 233. I refed the remaining starter with stone ground whole wheat (KA) and spring water to double the weight and left out for 4 hours at which point it had doubled in volume and I refrigerated it along with the firm starter. Today, I finished making the above bread. I finally got the appropriate rise and the bread is good. It's a bit more sour than I'd like but the texture of the crumb is just right. The crust is a little chewy but not as firm or thick as I'd like. (Next time, I'll try leaving it in the oven...turned off and door ajar...for 10 minutes after it finishes baking.) Although I seem to have finally produced a viable starter, I suspect that I haven't been feeding it as regularly as I should have. Perhaps, this is the reason for the higher degree of sourness than I would have preferred. I'm also considering increasing the ratio of flour and water in the next feeding (tripling vs. doubling) to see if I can improve this to my taste. I'll look forward to your thoughts and suggestions. As I said above, I have a lot to learn! |
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"Another Newbie" has First Success
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:05:25 GMT, jeff higgins
> wrote: >At 3 hours, a small amount of >additional moisture began appearing on the surface. Some very, very >small imbedded bubbles (no surface bubbles) appeared after 6 hours, >but no swelling. After 9 hours, there seemed to be a little >"softening" of the starter mixture and maybe a tiny bit of swelling, >with a little bit more softening and movement after another hour. I did manage to get vigorous action initially but it took 18 hours. >At this point, I took 4oz of the starter, threw the rest away, and fed >with 4oz each whole rye (Arrowhead) and spring water. This is the same stage I was at yesterday at 3:00 pm. >After about 2 >hours at 75f, there was a slight softening and more moisture appearing >on the surface. Around 7 hours later, there were some small bubbles. >The temp had fallen to 70f. There were no further changes over the >next 3 hours, at which point I went to bed. This is the stage I am at now. >There was no further visable activity at all during the next 30 >hours....yes, I mean 30 hours! I had to wait 18 hours the first time, so it looks like I will have to wait a similar period for the second round. >A half hour later, however, things had >changed! There was lots of bubbling and the starter had nearly >doubled in volume. That's what happened at 18 hours from the beginning. It appears that our experiences match somewhat. The main difference is that I am starting from scratch using a mix of 75% freshly-milled organic whole wheat flour and 25% of the same rye flour you are using (Arrowhead). Other than that we are getting about the same results. Now I am waiting for the second round of activity to happen again - the one which took 30 hours for you. |
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"Another Newbie" has First Success
* jeff higgins > 2003-10-28:
> After the many helpful suggestions I received when I last posted, I am > happy to report some real success. Congratulations! Sounds like you have made great progress. > I haven't found a way yet to maintain consistent temperatures within > the recommended 80f - 85f range. Me either. With the cooler weather upon us I have returned to thinking about building my thermostatically controlled proofing chamber, but more on that another day. > So, all of the above took place at > ambient temps ranging from 85f at the beginning down to 75f after 10 > hours, with most of the time in the 80 to 82 degree range. Should be fine, sourdough is not delicate. The only problem is timing. I find that things happen about twice as fast at 85F when compared to 70F. > I then used 4oz to make the "firm starter" for the > Basic Sourdough Bread recipe from BBA, pg. 233. My normal procedure is based on this recipe, I find it quite successful. > I refed the > remaining starter with stone ground whole wheat (KA) and spring water > to double the weight and left out for 4 hours at which point it had > doubled in volume and I refrigerated it along with the firm starter. Perfect. > > Today, I finished making the above bread. I finally got the > appropriate rise and the bread is good. It's a bit more sour than I'd > like but the texture of the crumb is just right. The crust is a > little chewy but not as firm or thick as I'd like. Most likely not enough steam. > Although I seem to have finally produced a viable starter, I suspect > that I haven't been feeding it as regularly as I should have. > Perhaps, this is the reason for the higher degree of sourness than I > would have preferred. I'm also considering increasing the ratio of > flour and water in the next feeding (tripling vs. doubling) to see if > I can improve this to my taste. Degree of sourness of the final loaf is most dependant on time and temperature of ferment. Did you stick close to Reinhart's timing? I typically use a primary ferment of 3.5 hours at 75F and a final rise of 2.5 hours at 75F. Timings must be adjusted to compensate for temperature. Also your culture has probably not stabilized yet and will continue to evolve over time. The more feeding cycles you put it through the faster it will stabilize. When you get your sample of Carl's try that for comparison. > > I'll look forward to your thoughts and suggestions. As I said above, > I have a lot to learn! The joy is in the journey. Great work! -- Steve W s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net |
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"Another Newbie" has First Success
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:03:20 GMT, Steve W >
wrote: >Me either. With the cooler weather upon us I have returned to thinking >about building my thermostatically controlled proofing chamber, but more >on that another day. Howdy, If you need help with this, please post again. There are a number of techniques that are easy, and inexpensive. HTH, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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"Another Newbie" has First Success
* Kenneth > 2003-10-28:
> On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:03:20 GMT, Steve W > > wrote: > >>Me either. With the cooler weather upon us I have returned to thinking >>about building my thermostatically controlled proofing chamber, but more >>on that another day. > > Howdy, > > If you need help with this, please post again. There are a number of > techniques that are easy, and inexpensive. Easy and inexpensive sounds good to me! I have the following parts on hand: - A clear plastic storage bin for main enclosure - 12 volt DC power supply ( AC wall adapter ) - standard round Honeywell mechanical home thermostat - 12 volt computer fan for circulation - 110 VAC lamp fixture for heating element I think all I need now is an appropriate relay with 12 VDC coil which should be available cheaply at RxxxxShack, and some sort of small enclosure for the "guts". I have already seen discussions in earlier threads about Samartha's fish tank heater, Dick's modified coffee pot thermostat, and your own modified refrigerator. Good solutions all! More ideas are certainly welcome. -- Steve W s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net |
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"Another Newbie" has First Success
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 23:22:52 GMT, Steve W >
wrote: >* Kenneth > 2003-10-28: >> On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:03:20 GMT, Steve W > >> wrote: >> >>>Me either. With the cooler weather upon us I have returned to thinking >>>about building my thermostatically controlled proofing chamber, but more >>>on that another day. >> >> Howdy, >> >> If you need help with this, please post again. There are a number of >> techniques that are easy, and inexpensive. > >Easy and inexpensive sounds good to me! I have the following parts on >hand: > >- A clear plastic storage bin for main enclosure >- 12 volt DC power supply ( AC wall adapter ) >- standard round Honeywell mechanical home thermostat >- 12 volt computer fan for circulation >- 110 VAC lamp fixture for heating element > >I think all I need now is an appropriate relay with 12 VDC coil which >should be available cheaply at RxxxxShack, and some sort of small >enclosure for the "guts". > >I have already seen discussions in earlier threads about Samartha's fish >tank heater, Dick's modified coffee pot thermostat, and your own >modified refrigerator. Good solutions all! More ideas are certainly >welcome. Hi Steve, I think you are probably ahead of me... I would forget about the fan, get the relay, screw in a low wattage bulb, and turn it on and off with the thermostat. Put something above the bulb so that the warm air coming off it will have to "go around the barrier." With that, convection will even out the temperature inside the box. Have fun with it. I think you are on your way. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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"Another Newbie" has First Success
jeff higgins wrote:
> I haven't found a way yet to maintain consistent temperatures within > the recommended 80f - 85f range. An aquarium water heater in a tank does it very precise. If you want to do it accurate and repeatable, it's probably the cheapest way of regulating temperature with that precision. Also, many things can happen - very interesting. I maintain temperatures for growing starters and rising doughs with that. You can see pictures on my Detmold 3-Stage starter process web page, but you probably already have... It depends what you want and what your general objective is. Everything should go just fine with fluctuating temperatures, it just may take longer when the temp is lower. You can make very good breads with that "imprecision" ;-). And - just a thought, where in nature is something constant? Things always fluctuate, mostly... And - I forgot to send this off this morning, so I do it now.. And - I have used bedlamps, low power lamps in a plastic pail - computer tops, stove tops, garden sun, oven light (dangerous since too hot, radiation was a problem besides overall heating, the dough in the rising bowl next to the lamp, with oven full had one side almost cooking and the dough going totally bananas one-sided, so I put a smaller lamp on a cable in the bottom of the oven instead). The water with pump and heater is great, I have two tanks now hooked up together - very stable in temperature and when a swimming bread basket tanks because the loaf rises uneven, things can get very exciting;-) Samartha -- remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/ |
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"Another Newbie" has First Success
[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]] In article >, Steve W > wrote: > More ideas are certainly > welcome. In the philosophy of 'keep it simple', IMHO you don't need thermostatic control. I used; 1 cheap styrofoam cooler or almost any container or box of suitable size 1 lamp dimmer switch 1 lamp socket with 15 watt bulb. My setup maintained any temperature it was set to. I could never see the thermometer vary by even 1 degree F from where I set it. (The temperature in almost any home is thermostatically controlled, you only want to have an offset from that temperature) Nowadays I don't bother with it, when I want to speed things up I use an electric self-cleaning oven (lots of insulation in those) with the interior lamp turned on or the main element turned on for a couple of minutes. Most of time I don't even do that but go with the ambient temperature and adjust the time accordingly. Cheers, Darrell -- To reply, substitute .net for .invalid in address, i.e., darrell.usenet2 (at) telus.net |
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"Another Newbie" has First Success
"Steve W" > wrote in message ... > > Me either. With the cooler weather upon us I have returned to thinking > about building my thermostatically controlled proofing chamber, but more > on that another day. > -- > Steve W > s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net How curious, this came from a posting at a.b.r. today http://members.cox.net/hebertcooking/proofing_box.htm Janet |
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"Another Newbie" has First Success
Janet Bostwick wrote:
> > "Steve W" > wrote in message > ... > > > > Me either. With the cooler weather upon us I have returned to thinking > > about building my thermostatically controlled proofing chamber, but more > > on that another day. > > -- > > Steve W > > s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net > > How curious, this came from a posting at a.b.r. today > http://members.cox.net/hebertcooking/proofing_box.htm very good picture - one can see how the right side of the dough gets more radiation heat from the lamp and warmer. The effects on crumb and taste should be researched and documented. Probably very interesting if somebody is into those things. What is needed is a microwave rotating plates. Also, the temperature is not regulated and if you have more than one box, they won't stack very well because of the stupid switch/cable arrangement on the side. Samartha -- remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/ |
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"Another Newbie" has First Success
Janet Bostwick wrote:
> http://members.cox.net/hebertcooking/proofing_box.htm in addition - I wonder, what the thermometer is going to measure right on the top with still (unarticulated) air? To calculate from that the temperature the dough bowl has on the bottom depending on ambient temperature is another great project - if somebody is into it. S. -- remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/ |
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"Another Newbie" has First Success
Darrell Greenwood wrote:
> My setup maintained any temperature it was set to. I could never see > the thermometer vary by even 1 degree F from where I set it. (The > temperature in almost any home is thermostatically controlled, you only > want to have an offset from that temperature) Although thermostatically controlled, this does not work with my heating since it has this automatic night temperature reduction (which could be disabled) - then during day, it gets really warm, depending on cloud cover. In my case, when growing starter 30-something hours it would not work if I want the temperature to be fairly constant (for repeatibility and intended comparison). Samartha -- remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/ |
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"Another Newbie" has First Success
* Kenneth > 2003-10-28:
> On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 23:22:52 GMT, Steve W > > wrote: > >>* Kenneth > 2003-10-28: >>> On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:03:20 GMT, Steve W > >>> wrote: >>> >>>>Me either. With the cooler weather upon us I have returned to thinking >>>>about building my thermostatically controlled proofing chamber, but more >>>>on that another day. >>> >>> Howdy, >>> >>> If you need help with this, please post again. There are a number of >>> techniques that are easy, and inexpensive. >> >>Easy and inexpensive sounds good to me! I have the following parts on >>hand: >> >>- A clear plastic storage bin for main enclosure >>- 12 volt DC power supply ( AC wall adapter ) >>- standard round Honeywell mechanical home thermostat >>- 12 volt computer fan for circulation >>- 110 VAC lamp fixture for heating element >> >>I think all I need now is an appropriate relay with 12 VDC coil which >>should be available cheaply at RxxxxShack, and some sort of small >>enclosure for the "guts". >> >>I have already seen discussions in earlier threads about Samartha's fish >>tank heater, Dick's modified coffee pot thermostat, and your own >>modified refrigerator. Good solutions all! More ideas are certainly >>welcome. > > Hi Steve, > > I think you are probably ahead of me... Not likely. :-) > > I would forget about the fan, Yes, maybe I will start out that way and add the fan only if problems arise. > get the relay, screw in a low wattage > bulb, and turn it on and off with the thermostat. Put something above > the bulb so that the warm air coming off it will have to "go around > the barrier." So what's the idea here? The barrier difuses the rising stream of hot air? > With that, convection will even out the temperature > inside the box. Thanks for your ideas. -- Steve W s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net |
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"Another Newbie" has First Success
* Darrell Greenwood > 2003-10-29:
> In the philosophy of 'keep it simple', IMHO you don't need thermostatic > control. I used; > > 1 cheap styrofoam cooler or almost any container or box of suitable size > 1 lamp dimmer switch > 1 lamp socket with 15 watt bulb. > > My setup maintained any temperature it was set to. I could never see > the thermometer vary by even 1 degree F from where I set it. (The > temperature in almost any home is thermostatically controlled, you only > want to have an offset from that temperature) Yes, I used this setup successfully for a couple of years. Haven't used it lately because my existing box is too small for my current needs. However, the temperature in my house varys quite a bit between day and night. I often let my sourdough ferment for 24 hours (pancakes) so the daily fluctuation in ambient temperature becomes an issue. > > Nowadays I don't bother with it, when I want to speed things up I use > an electric self-cleaning oven (lots of insulation in those) with the > interior lamp turned on or the main element turned on for a couple of > minutes. This is the method I have been using lately. My experience is similar to Samartha's on this. The 15 watt bulb in my oven generates far too much heat for such a well insulated space. If I leave the light on my temperature gets much too high. This requires too much supervision for my taste. > Most of time I don't even do that but go with the ambient > temperature and adjust the time accordingly. Fine in Summer. The price of natural gas dictates a temperature that is much too low during the Winter. Thanks for your input. -- Steve W s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net |
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"Another Newbie" has First Success
* Janet Bostwick > 2003-10-29:
> > How curious, this came from a posting at a.b.r. today > http://members.cox.net/hebertcooking/proofing_box.htm Rather expensive for such a simple design. No thermostat. :-( -- Steve W s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net |
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"Another Newbie" has First Success
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:29:54 GMT, Steve W >
wrote: >So what's the idea here? The barrier difuses the rising stream of hot >air? Hi Steve, Yup. But do remember that with the very low wattage bulb that we are talking about there is not exactly a "stream" of hot air. It was just that I thought it best to avoid having the surface of the bulb radiate its heat directly. With a piece of cardboard (or some such) between the bulb and the dough, that problem would be avoided, and the overall temperature inside the box would be more uniform. HTH, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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"Another Newbie" has First Success
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:30:33 -0500, Kenneth
> wrote: >>So what's the idea here? The barrier difuses the rising stream of hot >>air? >Hi Steve, >Yup. But do remember that with the very low wattage bulb that we are >talking about there is not exactly a "stream" of hot air. It was just >that I thought it best to avoid having the surface of the bulb radiate >its heat directly. With a piece of cardboard (or some such) between >the bulb and the dough, that problem would be avoided, and the overall >temperature inside the box would be more uniform. If you want a heat radiation barrier use a piece of heavy duty aluminum foil folded several times to make it stronger. |
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