"HeatherInSwampscott" > wrote in message =
...

> I went to the root of that page, and found this link, was this what=20
> you were thinking of?

> http://www.ssc.upenn.edu/~croehler/sourdough.htm

You are resourceful. I had not seen that page. She initially posted =
some
photos of her own bread. But that information seems very useful.

> My rye is somewhat between Backwert 4 and 5, with the slight=20
> separation at the top crust, except my separation happens about=20
> 1/4 inch, right at the top crust.

Seems you may be quite far along in you all-rye quest. When you
are ready, you might consider inspiring us with some digital photos.
(especially if you succeed to couple an exercise machine with a mill).

With regard to Ms. Roehler, she was approachably conversational=20
years back when she dropped briefly in at r.f.s. She would probably=20
respond with some enthusiasm if you were to direct some knotty=20
questions to her, as there seems to have developed very little interest=20
in all-rye among amateur bakers.

Message ID =3D
is as far as I got with all-rye, or rye + fortuitous schrot. It is =
pretty
easy to do, and I still do it every now and then. It is not, in any =
way,
pumpernickel, as Samartha has most vociferously pointed out, but=20
it reminds Mrs. Adams of some kind of "old-world" bread and goes
well with stinky little pickled fishes.

---
DickA

Dick Adams wrote:
> "HeatherInSwampscott" > wrote in message ...

>
>>My rye is somewhat between Backwert 4 and 5, with the slight
>>separation at the top crust, except my separation happens about
>>1/4 inch, right at the top crust.
>
>
> Seems you may be quite far along in you all-rye quest. When you
> are ready, you might consider inspiring us with some digital photos.
> (especially if you succeed to couple an exercise machine with a mill).

I wanted to edit that last posting, but ran out of time. I should have
said the GAP between the crumb and crust of my bread resembles the GAP
of Backwert 4 and 5! (In an earlier email I mentioned the crumb
separating entirely from the crust, that is not happening anymore.) The
holes in my bread are more irregular than the photos on that page. My
crumb looks more like Samartha's 24 hour pumperknickle, just not as
dense. And my loaves are not free form (not sure of the correct term),
they are made in a bread pan.

I will photo my next batch, if I remember to bring my work camera home : -)
And I have not gone further than the idea of "exerciser-mill", but my
arms are shaping up nicely thank you!

> Message ID =
> is as far as I got with all-rye, or rye + fortuitous schrot. It is pretty
> easy to do, and I still do it every now and then.

A while ago I was looking for rye recipes and came across your "Vollkorn
without tears" variation,
that is on my list to try as well, thank you!
(took me a minute to figure out the message id thing:
(shrort URL to recipe: http://tinyurl.com/skzn )
(long url for Vollkorn without tears
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Vo...t.net&rn um=1

The recipe I am using is very similar, but no molasses, and I have a rye
starter, and add onions sauteed in butter to the slurry. Yum!

Photos soon! And then I will try 100% whole wheat and see if I can't
make a tasty version I like as much as the rye.

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

"HeatherInSwampscott" > wrote in message =
...

> A while ago I was looking for rye recipes and came across your=20
> "Vollkorn without tears" variation, that is on my list to try as well, =

> thank you! (took me a minute to figure out the message id thing

I figured you could do figure it out, but I did not suspect that you=20
would do it for everyone. That post gets me in bad trouble with the=20
Pumpernickel Police. So now I am probably in for it again.

> (short URL to recipe: http://tinyurl.com/skzn )
> (long url for Vollkorn without tears
> =
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=3D...l=3Den&lr=3D&=
ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&selm=3D6jpjbb%248i0%40bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net& rnu=
m=3D1

Didja know that once you have the message-ID (that is, the news=20
ID without the <news:> you can prefix it with
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D
and give it directly you your browser, or, in most cases, click it
up from your newsreader..

For instance, here is your message referenced above, at the Google
archive (assuming it has reached there already, otherwise try again =
later):
=
link.net

That trick was taught at r.f.s. by Darrell.

A few people know that a message can be brought back by clicking on its
news ID (which makes full requoting an absurdity suitable only for =
novices),=20
but almost no one remembers/knows Darrell's trick.

Of course there is the problem that it is quite impossible to prevent=20
newsreaders from breaking long url references, and once broken, they
are impossible to repair. So maybe the tiny thing is the best answer.

: )

Happy ryemucking.

---
DickA

Dick Adams wrote:

> Didja know that once you have the message-ID (that is, the news
> ID without the <news:> you can prefix it with
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=
> and give it directly you your browser, or, in most cases, click it
> up from your newsreader..

Good tip, thanks!

> : )
>
> Happy ryemucking.

That is a good name for it, "ryemucking". I like that!

Thank you,

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

I've been baking 100% Rye Sourdough for about 12 years. I try to minimize
cleanup effort. I bake the dough in a loaf pan. I mix the dough in a flat
17 cup Tupperware bowl (discontinued item), and I wear green "plastic/rubber"
food prep gloves to handle the dough. I use a large melamine spoon to mix the
dough, with help from a small (2x2") hard plastic scraper.

Towards the end of the mixing, I rub off the small amount of rye dough stuck to
the gloves, and incorporate it back into the dough.

I have discovered two similar methods, beginner and advanced. Once one gets
the feel for working with such a soft dough using the beginner method, then
one is ready for advanced method.

The beginner method disturbs the dough after the primary fermentation, while
the advanced method distrubs the dough much less. With 100% rye, there is
actually not much difference between the methods, but with 24% rye and 76%
unbleached wheat flour, the difference is considerable (try it, you will see
what I mean, I am too lazy to explain it any further).

I will now post the recipe, so that there is a complete context in which to
understand what I am doing.

1st leaven sponge (1pt wide mouth mason jar)
-----------------
34g - storage leaven (from refrigerator)
38g - water
29g - flour (100% SG Org Rye)
----
101g - ferment for 7 hours, covered (~~ 78-deg F), with SDI SF starter it
rises to 4x volume

2nd leaven sponge (17c mixing bowl)
-----------------
101g - 1st leaven sponge, ripe
126g - water
97g - flour (Rye)
----
324g - to be divided
-19g - for storage leaven, details omitted (again, too lazy)
----
305g - ferment 11 hours, covered (overnight)

final dough (17c mixing bowl - the same)
-----------
305g - 2nd leaven sponge, ripe
182g - water
420g - flour (Rye)
1.125% - salt (1 + 1/4 + 1/8 tsp Lima sea salt)
----
907g = 354g water + 553g flour (64% hydration)

Now for the method.

o push ripe leaven aside with spoon

o add all water to space freed up by prior step

o add all salt, wait 30 sec for salt to hydrate

o add a small amount of flour to the salt water, mix with spoon

o repeat prior step until salt water/flour is pancake batter consistency

o mix leaven and buffered salt mixture together until homogeneous

For the beginner method, reserve 55g of the total flour (10%).
For the advanced method, reserve 1Tbs of the total flour.

o continue to add a quantity of flour to the dough mixture, and mix until
all of the newly added flour is fully hydrated

o repeat prior step until all of the flour (except for the reserved quantity)
has been mixed into the dough. at a certain point, the dough will begin to
come together into a rough ball, and it will be not so easy to work. use
the scraper to move the wetter dough from the spoon back into the main
dough mass. use the scraper to move any drier peices of dough stuck to the
bowl back into the dough mass. for a man, i am not so strong, so if i can
mix the dough ball so that it is fully hydrated, then so can you. note
that my hands are still clean, and i haven't put on the gloves yet.

Ferment the dough, covered, for 1 1/2 hours at 78-deg F. It will expand
to 1 1/2 to 2 times in volume.

Now, put on the gloves. The goal is to free the dough mass from the bowl,
and to lightly coat it with flour, so that it can be manipulated with a
minimum of amount of dough sticking to the gloves.

Use the 2x2" scraper and sprinkle a little of the flour over the top and
exposed sides of the dough mass, then free a portion of the dough from the
bottom of the bowl, sprinkle a little flour on the just uncovered and freed
area of the bottom of the bowl, continue around until the dough mass has
been coated with flour and is not stuck to the bowl anymore.

The dough will be very soft, it needs to be handled very gently, otherwise,
the coating of flour will be breached, and then you will have a big sticky
mess on your hands.

Now the goal is to incorporate all of the (reserved) flour into the dough
mass, so that it is completely mixed in and fully hydrated. Actually, a
very fine coating of flour will remain on the dough, just enough so that
the dough can be shaped into its final (loaf for pan, round for free form)
shape.

With the beginner method, one has a lot of flour to incorporate into the
dough, so folding and gentle compression will be used to do this. One will
slowly develop a feel for the dough, as this "very gentle kneading" action
takes place. Be gentle and patient, and slowly, the dough will begin to firm
up, and will become much easier to handle.

With the advanced method, one has just a very small amount of flour to work
into the dough, fortunately, the dough is less hydrated to begin with, so
that with sufficient practice of the beginner method, one is able to manage.

Note that at the end of the beginner method, one is actually entering into
the advanced method, but with an "on the job training" lesson being learned
at a gradual pace.

It is really easy to breach the flour coating when transferring the formed
dough loaf into its pan for final proofing.

I use a pan that is about twice the volume of the dough mass, so that it
is easy to tell when to light the oven and commence baking.

Now for the remainder of the recipe,

o proof the loaf until it reaches the top of the pan (~~ 50 minutes)

o preheat oven at 350-deg F, for 35 minutes

o slash dough (determine experimentally - where it cracks after baking)

o spray top of loaf with a fine mist (optional)

o bake at 350-deg F for 45 minutes

o done, interior temp should be about 200-deg F

o remove loaf from pan, let cool on a wire rack for at least 5 hours

I would recommend at least another 18 hours of rest before attempting to
slice and consume this bread.

Actually, I prefer a soft crust, so after the initial 5 hour cool down,
I put the loaf in a plastic bag for the remaining 18 hours.

Due to the porosity of the rye dough, the loaf will have shrunk a bit from
its fully proofed size before baking.

I apologize for the formatting of this post, I am using an unfamiliar editor,
I will switch back to my usual editor in the future.

Enjoy,
--
Jeff Sheinberg -- jeff (at) bsrd (dot) net

Jeff provided a very detailed rye recipe including the method for incorporating
the last bit of flour...

<< The dough will be very soft, it needs to be handled very gently, otherwise,
the coating of flour will be breached, and then you will have a big sticky
mess on your hands. >>

Ed responds:
Jeff, I've copied the recipe and started the first innoculation. One thing
that is confusing is how one incorporates the last 10 percent flour or last 1
Tbsp of flour as quoted above.
I visualize kneading and folding the dough to incorporate the last bit of flour
which would obviously burst this floured bubble you describe. What am I
missing?


Ed

Ed Bechtel > wrote:
> Ed responds: Jeff, I've copied the recipe and started the
> first innoculation. One thing that is confusing is how one
> incorporates the last 10 percent flour or last 1 Tbsp of flour
> as quoted above. I visualize kneading and folding the dough to
> incorporate the last bit of flour which would obviously burst
> this floured bubble you describe. What am I missing?

The dough mass is not a "floured bubble", it is an expanded, very
soft dough mass.

Usually, working with whole rye flour is a real shock to someone
that is used to working only with white flour.

Now I will try to answer your question. By the time one gets to
the remaining 1 Tbsp of flour, the dough mass will have developed
enough cohesiveness so that it can be easily manipulated (gently
folded and pressed) without sticking.

I suggest that you begin with the "beginner" method, and when you
become confortable with it, then you are ready for the "advanced"
method.

--
Jeff Sheinberg
for email addr: remove "l1." and change ".invalid" to ".net"