In regards to mixing rye -

When I did my pumpernickel in a KA, the dough hook just would not do the
mixing, same with any other higher hydration doughs. This was extremely
frustrating: everything ready to go and the damn thing would not mix!
Just the dough hook cutting circles into the dough with nothing moving.

Now, thinking back, I could have used/tried another implement. There is
something like a paddle consisting mostly out of holes (if you know what
I mean;-) which could have worked.

The major frustration with the KA for me was the limited capacity so I
got a Magic Mill.
For a while, I was using the KA for mixing smaller amounts because it's
easier to clean but lately it's unused.

If you are able to utilize the amount of dough (I can mix 2 x 1500 g
loafs easily in one going which would cause the KA to start smoking and
requiring servicing) and can afford it, it's definitely worth
considering. The mixing process is very much different from a KA which
cuts with it's dough hook through the dough. The MM is
pressing/stretching which gives a different dough/gluten structure IMO.

But this has been covered many times over here and in other newsgroups.


As for kneading the rye - I am still experimental on this, same with
fermentation times. It's hard to find info on that (for me). Sure it's
less than with wheat. It's also probably a taste issue - how much sour
or taste you want. Can be done either all in the starter or some in the
starter and some in the final dough, in theory. What's done practically
in bakeries - who is doing full rye breads would know and probably won't
tell. Also, I really distrust US sources in rye procedures.

When I did the baking tests, the amount of water going into the dough
was amazing in comparison to wheat.

In essence, one would have to do a baking test for every flour or berry
bag - or batches thereof if you get more than one bag. And - I found
(untested hunch) that the light rye flour (50 lb bag) I had changed it's
property when I had it for maybe over 6 month.

The stickiness when handling the dough you overcome with wet hands -
bowl of cold water nearby and just keep it wet and slimy.


Samartha


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On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:59:43 -0700, Samartha Deva
> wrote:

>and just keep it wet and slimy.

Hi Samartha,

Hmmm... I assume you are still talking about the bread here <g>.

Your "cutting circles" description is exactly right. I have had that
problem and as you suggest, the "paddle" works well.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:
>
> On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:59:43 -0700, Samartha Deva
> > wrote:
>
> >and just keep it wet and slimy.
>
> Hi Samartha,
>
> Hmmm... I assume you are still talking about the bread here <g>.

Sure just not on the blocked threads and not <void>

Just because one dork is <withheld>.

There would be much more to say - anyone can backchannel me, just not
feeding the trolls;-) The mechanics are very clear and ....

Samartha

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"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message
...
> The major frustration with the KA for me was the limited capacity so I
> got a Magic Mill.

My major frustration with the KA was that I just could not get sufficient
gluten development using AP flour without long mix times and significant
mixer heating. With the Magic Mill, I've been able to significantly reduce
mix times (and overoxidation of the dough) and have been able to achieve far
superior gluten development, as evidenced by the nice grigne that now form
on my loaves.

- Steve Brandt

"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message
...
> In regards to mixing rye -
>
> When I did my pumpernickel in a KA, the dough hook just would not do the
> mixing, same with any other higher hydration doughs. This was extremely
> frustrating: everything ready to go and the damn thing would not mix!
> Just the dough hook cutting circles into the dough with nothing moving.
>
> Samartha
>
I'm glad that I read this thread. So what did you do after the hook just
cut circles? How did you judge the correct amount of kneading by hand. I
had a new recipe run out of oomph on me the other night. I did the wet hand
kneading, got what I judged to be correct development and the rise in the
bowl went well. However, the formed loaves rose just enough not to be
bricks, but not what I was expecting. I've been trying to analyze possible
problem areas. I'm using a preferment(sour). This recipe works for others,
I just don't know where my weakness is and I'm not very good at analyzing
rye. Suggestions?
Janet

Janet,

there may be some misunderstanding - it was pumpernickel dough!
Hydration 70 % with very coarse, partially cracked 100 % rye kernel
mixture. There is absolutely nothing keeping it together. Like you have
1/2 very large cup of oatmeal and put in milk so it's just good wet and
then stir with a chopstick. The stick moves right through the mass of
wet oats flakes.

There was absolutely no development, just the necessity to mix the
water, grain stuff, starter and salt well. When the dough hook drew it's
circles in the mass, my jaw fell open - what?

How I actually mixed it, I don't remember, but it was no big deal,
probably some stirring spoon.

Janet Bostwick wrote:

> I'm glad that I read this thread. So what did you do after the hook just
> cut circles? How did you judge the correct amount of kneading by hand. I
> had a new recipe run out of oomph on me the other night. I did the wet hand
> kneading, got what I judged to be correct development and the rise in the
> bowl went well.
> However, the formed loaves rose just enough not to be
> bricks, but not what I was expecting. I've been trying to analyze possible
> problem areas. I'm using a preferment(sour). This recipe works for others,
> I just don't know where my weakness is and I'm not very good at analyzing
> rye. Suggestions?

If I would know more that mixture of grains you are talking about,
maybe?

If you are talking pure rye, it needs a certain amount of sourness to
defeat some enzymatic activity or it gets into brick territory.

Samartha

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remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
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"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message
...
> > However, the formed loaves rose just enough not to be
> > bricks, but not what I was expecting. I've been trying to analyze
possible
> > problem areas. I'm using a preferment(sour). This recipe works for
others,
> > I just don't know where my weakness is and I'm not very good at
analyzing
> > rye. Suggestions?
>
> If I would know more that mixture of grains you are talking about,
> maybe?
>
> If you are talking pure rye, it needs a certain amount of sourness to
> defeat some enzymatic activity or it gets into brick territory.
>
> Samartha
>
> --
> remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
> SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

The sour is 1 tablespoon firm rye starter, 540 grams dark rye, 42 grams AP,
14 grams whole wheat, added to 810 grams dark rye, 63 grams AP, 27 grams
whole wheat to make the dough. I think my hydration was wrong, probably
much dryer flour here in my location. But I think I addressed that(not
really sure) when I wetted my hands several times during completion of
kneading by hand. I just am not sure how much this dough should 'flow'
after mix taking in account that water will continue to be absorbed. Maybe
I over-handled it. I just need some ideas.
Janet

Janet Bostwick wrote:

> The sour is 1 tablespoon firm rye starter, 540 grams dark rye, 42 grams AP,
> 14 grams whole wheat,


And how long is that growing at ? temp?

The ratios of starter/dough flour look ok, but is it fermenting long
enough?

(just asking maybe dumb questions to make your reality fit into my model
of thinking)

> added to 810 grams dark rye, 63 grams AP, 27 grams
> whole wheat to make the dough.

That's pretty good in rye %

> I think my hydration was wrong, probably
> much dryer flour here in my location.

How much was the hydration? I have done rye baking tests with
standardized flour humidity and I would like to be able to compare it to
that.

> But I think I addressed that(not
> really sure) when I wetted my hands several times during completion of
> kneading by hand. I just am not sure how much this dough should 'flow'
> after mix taking in account that water will continue to be absorbed. Maybe
> I over-handled it. I just need some ideas.

Maybe they come in the process of what we are doing here.

Samartha

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remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message
...
> Janet Bostwick wrote:
>
> > The sour is 1 tablespoon firm rye starter, 540 grams dark rye, 42 grams
AP,
> > 14 grams whole wheat,
>
> 
> And how long is that growing at ? temp?
>
> The ratios of starter/dough flour look ok, but is it fermenting long
> enough?
>
> (just asking maybe dumb questions to make your reality fit into my model
> of thinking)
>
> > added to 810 grams dark rye, 63 grams AP, 27 grams
> > whole wheat to make the dough.
>
> That's pretty good in rye %
>
> > I think my hydration was wrong, probably
> > much dryer flour here in my location.
>
> How much was the hydration? I have done rye baking tests with
> standardized flour humidity and I would like to be able to compare it to
> that.
>
> > But I think I addressed that(not
> > really sure) when I wetted my hands several times during completion of
> > kneading by hand. I just am not sure how much this dough should 'flow'
> > after mix taking in account that water will continue to be absorbed.
Maybe
> > I over-handled it. I just need some ideas.
>
> Maybe they come in the process of what we are doing here.
>
> Samartha
>
whoops, sorry, forgot the water didn't I? 1100ml, all in the sour, 48
hours, room temp 70-75. very foamy, bubbly, knock your head back with the
vapors, starting to fall.
Janet