Preserving (rec.food.preserving) Devoted to the discussion of recipes, equipment, and techniques of food preservation. Techniques that should be discussed in this forum include canning, freezing, dehydration, pickling, smoking, salting, and distilling.

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what did they use before rubber rings, plastics
or rubber lined edges of metal lids?

pine resin/pitch? honey? wax seems too
hard and brittle. hmm...

i'm trying to make my list of things to have
on hand or know where to get easily just in case
we ever need them.

to replace metal lids i was thinking circles
of glass would work, with the edge ground to dull
the sharpness.

plastics don't appeal to me at all, but natural
latex or waxes would be ok as long as i can grow
them or somehow have a decent supply. plant based
products a definite plus, plant based products i
can actually grow here in the midwest USoA would
be even better.

right now i'm leaning towards a plant wax as i
think you only need a very thin layer to seal the
rims imperfections, but it would need some kind
of heat stablizer to protect it while sealing
(otherwise it would be a return to hot pack
methods and very little additional heat to seal).

any other ideas?


songbird
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On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 23:50:59 -0500, songbird >
wrote:

> what did they use before rubber rings, plastics
>or rubber lined edges of metal lids?
>
> pine resin/pitch? honey? wax seems too
>hard and brittle. hmm...
>
> i'm trying to make my list of things to have
>on hand or know where to get easily just in case
>we ever need them.
>
> to replace metal lids i was thinking circles
>of glass would work, with the edge ground to dull
>the sharpness.
>
> plastics don't appeal to me at all, but natural
>latex or waxes would be ok as long as i can grow
>them or somehow have a decent supply. plant based
>products a definite plus, plant based products i
>can actually grow here in the midwest USoA would
>be even better.
>
> right now i'm leaning towards a plant wax as i
>think you only need a very thin layer to seal the
>rims imperfections, but it would need some kind
>of heat stablizer to protect it while sealing
>(otherwise it would be a return to hot pack
>methods and very little additional heat to seal).
>
> any other ideas?
>
>
> songbird


Check out this site for the history of canning.
http://foodpreservation.about.com/od...nning-Food.htm

Seems like since 1858 rubber gaskets have been used to seal jars. You
need something that would withstand the heat of at least a boiling
water bath. And that limits you to acidic foods. Unless you are
willing to take the chance of spoiled food or Botulism.

If you are planning for Doomsday I think that drying foods and meats
would be the best idea.
--
Susan N.

"Moral indignation is in most cases two percent moral,
48 percent indignation, and 50 percent envy."
Vittorio De Sica, Italian movie director (1901-1974)
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The Cook wrote:
....
> Check out this site for the history of canning.
> http://foodpreservation.about.com/od...nning-Food.htm


i did thanks...


> Seems like since 1858 rubber gaskets have been used to seal jars. You
> need something that would withstand the heat of at least a boiling
> water bath. And that limits you to acidic foods. Unless you are
> willing to take the chance of spoiled food or Botulism.


they still have rubber ring systems available out
there (Germany), but what happens when the rubber
wears out? useless...


> If you are planning for Doomsday I think that drying foods and meats
> would be the best idea.


yes, some of those, plenty of fermented foods too,
just trying to see what people can think up that is
out of the box and not reliant upon manufactured
items from far away.

also, having plenty of beans and grains on hand
for sprouting is a good alternative to not having
any fresh greens during the winter months. still
i would like to have a full variety of things to work
with and choose from. nutrition from a mix of
sources.


songbird
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In article >, songbird
> wrote:

> yes, some of those, plenty of fermented foods too,
> just trying to see what people can think up that is
> out of the box and not reliant upon manufactured
> items from far away.
>
> also, having plenty of beans and grains on hand
> for sprouting is a good alternative to not having
> any fresh greens during the winter months. still
> i would like to have a full variety of things to work
> with and choose from. nutrition from a mix of
> sources.


Back "in the day" (40-50 years ago) we used paraffin for jams, jellies
and such. Anything else went in the pressure cooker with rubber
sealers.

Not sure what Great Granny used...

Pickles and sauerkraut were left fermenting in crocks in the cold
cellar... Kimchee (in some recipes) is fermented in crocks that are
buried in the ground.

Humans have been curing meat for centuries. Nitrates/nitrites have
been/are used (and can be harvested as crystals from manure piles, or
potash if you happen to live in an area like ours where it very
common), but as well as drying meat (aka jerky) there's salting (salt
beef, salt cod) pickling (herring for instance, and corned beef) and of
course smoking and combinations thereof (curing and smoking ham and
bacon comes to mind, as well as sausages).

Root cellars (caves, if there are any accessible) are critical. Grampa
had a huge underground one, walled and roofed with timbers then covered
with soil.

Drying fruits and veggies, of course.

If you have access to grain, you can grind for flour, but best to
acquire mill stones before the zombie apocalypse.

You may also want to investigate snares and deadfall traps for game.

Stocking up on things like fish hooks, line and snare wire would seem
to me a good idea.

Learning to weave vessels for storage could be a useful skill as well,
as is tanning hides. If you're in an area where you have a freeze in
the winter, an icehouse is a great thing to have for the warmer months.
You'll want an ice auger and saw.

Also don't forget basic medical skills like setting breaks, dealing
with infection, and serious lacerations or puncture wounds.

Interesting thread.

djb

--
³Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness
sobered, but stupid lasts forever.² -- Aristophanes
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On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 22:19:25 -0600, Dave Balderstone
> wrote:

>In article >, songbird
> wrote:
>
>> yes, some of those, plenty of fermented foods too,
>> just trying to see what people can think up that is
>> out of the box and not reliant upon manufactured
>> items from far away.
>>
>> also, having plenty of beans and grains on hand
>> for sprouting is a good alternative to not having
>> any fresh greens during the winter months. still
>> i would like to have a full variety of things to work
>> with and choose from. nutrition from a mix of
>> sources.

>
>Back "in the day" (40-50 years ago) we used paraffin for jams, jellies
>and such. Anything else went in the pressure cooker with rubber
>sealers.


Even in the 70's I used paraffin for jams and jellies until I saw the
ants marching in and going through the paraffin.
>
>Not sure what Great Granny used...
>
>Pickles and sauerkraut were left fermenting in crocks in the cold
>cellar... Kimchee (in some recipes) is fermented in crocks that are
>buried in the ground.
>
>Humans have been curing meat for centuries. Nitrates/nitrites have
>been/are used (and can be harvested as crystals from manure piles, or
>potash if you happen to live in an area like ours where it very
>common), but as well as drying meat (aka jerky) there's salting (salt
>beef, salt cod) pickling (herring for instance, and corned beef) and of
>course smoking and combinations thereof (curing and smoking ham and
>bacon comes to mind, as well as sausages).
>
>Root cellars (caves, if there are any accessible) are critical. Grampa
>had a huge underground one, walled and roofed with timbers then covered
>with soil.
>
>Drying fruits and veggies, of course.
>
>If you have access to grain, you can grind for flour, but best to
>acquire mill stones before the zombie apocalypse.
>
>You may also want to investigate snares and deadfall traps for game.
>
>Stocking up on things like fish hooks, line and snare wire would seem
>to me a good idea.
>
>Learning to weave vessels for storage could be a useful skill as well,
>as is tanning hides. If you're in an area where you have a freeze in
>the winter, an icehouse is a great thing to have for the warmer months.
>You'll want an ice auger and saw.
>
>Also don't forget basic medical skills like setting breaks, dealing
>with infection, and serious lacerations or puncture wounds.
>
>Interesting thread.
>
>djb


Frankly I don't think that finding a way to seal glass jars is going
to do you much good if no one is still producing the jars. Instead of
trying to figure out how to make today's products work, you best learn
how people in the 1700's - early 1800's lived, and how long.

One of the first things you would have to do is dig yourself a well.
Then build an outhouse, more digging.
While you are digging go ahead and dig a root cellar.
Get yourself some basic tools, nothing that runs on electricity or
even gas.
Livestock. Learn how to butcher them.
Find a source of wood. You will probably have to cut the trees
yourself.

Remember too, people had large families. They were necessary to keep
everything going since one or two people could not do it.


--
Susan N.

"Moral indignation is in most cases two percent moral,
48 percent indignation, and 50 percent envy."
Vittorio De Sica, Italian movie director (1901-1974)


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On 2/16/2014 10:19 PM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
> In article >, songbird
> > wrote:
>
>> yes, some of those, plenty of fermented foods too,
>> just trying to see what people can think up that is
>> out of the box and not reliant upon manufactured
>> items from far away.
>>
>> also, having plenty of beans and grains on hand
>> for sprouting is a good alternative to not having
>> any fresh greens during the winter months. still
>> i would like to have a full variety of things to work
>> with and choose from. nutrition from a mix of
>> sources.

>
> Back "in the day" (40-50 years ago) we used paraffin for jams, jellies
> and such. Anything else went in the pressure cooker with rubber
> sealers.
>
> Not sure what Great Granny used...
>
> Pickles and sauerkraut were left fermenting in crocks in the cold
> cellar... Kimchee (in some recipes) is fermented in crocks that are
> buried in the ground.
>
> Humans have been curing meat for centuries. Nitrates/nitrites have
> been/are used (and can be harvested as crystals from manure piles, or
> potash if you happen to live in an area like ours where it very
> common), but as well as drying meat (aka jerky) there's salting (salt
> beef, salt cod) pickling (herring for instance, and corned beef) and of
> course smoking and combinations thereof (curing and smoking ham and
> bacon comes to mind, as well as sausages).
>
> Root cellars (caves, if there are any accessible) are critical. Grampa
> had a huge underground one, walled and roofed with timbers then covered
> with soil.
>
> Drying fruits and veggies, of course.
>
> If you have access to grain, you can grind for flour, but best to
> acquire mill stones before the zombie apocalypse.
>
> You may also want to investigate snares and deadfall traps for game.
>
> Stocking up on things like fish hooks, line and snare wire would seem
> to me a good idea.
>
> Learning to weave vessels for storage could be a useful skill as well,
> as is tanning hides. If you're in an area where you have a freeze in
> the winter, an icehouse is a great thing to have for the warmer months.
> You'll want an ice auger and saw.
>
> Also don't forget basic medical skills like setting breaks, dealing
> with infection, and serious lacerations or puncture wounds.
>
> Interesting thread.
>
> djb
>

Not to mention a large supply of various weapons and ammo for them,
include a few bows and many arrows. Sling shots are good for small game
and don't make a lot of noise. A large cache of Victor traps and lead
for the slings and for your ammunition, reloading equipment, steel for
arrow heads (chipping flint is a real job), stash of bow wood and arrow
shafts, wouldn't hurt to set up a small smithy.

How about an rfp apocalypse hide out?

George
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On 2/17/2014 7:06 AM, The Cook wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 22:19:25 -0600, Dave Balderstone
> > wrote:
>
>> In article >, songbird
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> yes, some of those, plenty of fermented foods too,
>>> just trying to see what people can think up that is
>>> out of the box and not reliant upon manufactured
>>> items from far away.
>>>
>>> also, having plenty of beans and grains on hand
>>> for sprouting is a good alternative to not having
>>> any fresh greens during the winter months. still
>>> i would like to have a full variety of things to work
>>> with and choose from. nutrition from a mix of
>>> sources.

>>
>> Back "in the day" (40-50 years ago) we used paraffin for jams, jellies
>> and such. Anything else went in the pressure cooker with rubber
>> sealers.

>
> Even in the 70's I used paraffin for jams and jellies until I saw the
> ants marching in and going through the paraffin.
>>
>> Not sure what Great Granny used...
>>
>> Pickles and sauerkraut were left fermenting in crocks in the cold
>> cellar... Kimchee (in some recipes) is fermented in crocks that are
>> buried in the ground.
>>
>> Humans have been curing meat for centuries. Nitrates/nitrites have
>> been/are used (and can be harvested as crystals from manure piles, or
>> potash if you happen to live in an area like ours where it very
>> common), but as well as drying meat (aka jerky) there's salting (salt
>> beef, salt cod) pickling (herring for instance, and corned beef) and of
>> course smoking and combinations thereof (curing and smoking ham and
>> bacon comes to mind, as well as sausages).
>>
>> Root cellars (caves, if there are any accessible) are critical. Grampa
>> had a huge underground one, walled and roofed with timbers then covered
>> with soil.
>>
>> Drying fruits and veggies, of course.
>>
>> If you have access to grain, you can grind for flour, but best to
>> acquire mill stones before the zombie apocalypse.
>>
>> You may also want to investigate snares and deadfall traps for game.
>>
>> Stocking up on things like fish hooks, line and snare wire would seem
>> to me a good idea.
>>
>> Learning to weave vessels for storage could be a useful skill as well,
>> as is tanning hides. If you're in an area where you have a freeze in
>> the winter, an icehouse is a great thing to have for the warmer months.
>> You'll want an ice auger and saw.
>>
>> Also don't forget basic medical skills like setting breaks, dealing
>> with infection, and serious lacerations or puncture wounds.
>>
>> Interesting thread.
>>
>> djb

>
> Frankly I don't think that finding a way to seal glass jars is going
> to do you much good if no one is still producing the jars. Instead of
> trying to figure out how to make today's products work, you best learn
> how people in the 1700's - early 1800's lived, and how long.
>
> One of the first things you would have to do is dig yourself a well.
> Then build an outhouse, more digging.
> While you are digging go ahead and dig a root cellar.
> Get yourself some basic tools, nothing that runs on electricity or
> even gas.
> Livestock. Learn how to butcher them.
> Find a source of wood. You will probably have to cut the trees
> yourself.


Remember not to put the well to close to the privy, that's important.

>
> Remember too, people had large families. They were necessary to keep
> everything going since one or two people could not do it.
>
>

That's why we have so many grands and great grands. Use them as labor
before the zombies get us or use them for food. Ancient peoples had
large families for a reason, 1) free labor, 2) food if necessary, look
at ancient Chinese history, they were open enough to admit it where the
Europeans kept it quiet.

I may start watching the myriad of TV shows on the subject. Hmm, may
need more weapons.

George, enjoying this conversation
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In article >, George Shirley
> wrote:

> Not to mention a large supply of various weapons and ammo for them,
> include a few bows and many arrows. Sling shots are good for small game
> and don't make a lot of noise. A large cache of Victor traps and lead
> for the slings and for your ammunition, reloading equipment, steel for
> arrow heads (chipping flint is a real job), stash of bow wood and arrow
> shafts, wouldn't hurt to set up a small smithy.


Firearms and ammo a definite. I've been considering a bow, maybe a
crossbow. A fellow I work with built a powerful recurve bow out of PVC
piping. Yew and Ash are more traditional. Of course, learning to fletch
arrows would be a good skill too.

Oh, did I mention duct tape? Lots and lots of duct tape...

--
³Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness
sobered, but stupid lasts forever.² -- Aristophanes
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On 2/17/2014 9:58 AM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
> In article >, George Shirley
> > wrote:
>
>> Not to mention a large supply of various weapons and ammo for them,
>> include a few bows and many arrows. Sling shots are good for small game
>> and don't make a lot of noise. A large cache of Victor traps and lead
>> for the slings and for your ammunition, reloading equipment, steel for
>> arrow heads (chipping flint is a real job), stash of bow wood and arrow
>> shafts, wouldn't hurt to set up a small smithy.

>
> Firearms and ammo a definite. I've been considering a bow, maybe a
> crossbow. A fellow I work with built a powerful recurve bow out of PVC
> piping. Yew and Ash are more traditional. Of course, learning to fletch
> arrows would be a good skill too.
>
> Oh, did I mention duct tape? Lots and lots of duct tape...
>

My ancestors here in the New World made bows from Bois de Arc, aka Osage
Orange, native tree with inedible fruit. When I was in my early teens I
made lots of bows from the straight limbs or from saplings. Cut,
skinned, dried in the attic for about six months to a year. Really good
wood for bows here in the New World. River cane made excellent, easy to
make arrows. I used arrow heads cut out of galvanized sheet metal, easy
to cut and sharpen, not very heavy. Bois de Arc makes good spears and
quarter staffs too. Made a recurve bow once too, based on the Mongol
horse bows. Went to the local abattoir and pulled a lot of cow horn out
of the discard pile and went from there. Took a good while to do it
right and, since I didn't have a horse at the time I sold it.

George
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In article >, George Shirley
> wrote:

> On 2/17/2014 9:58 AM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
> > In article >, George Shirley
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> Not to mention a large supply of various weapons and ammo for them,
> >> include a few bows and many arrows. Sling shots are good for small game
> >> and don't make a lot of noise. A large cache of Victor traps and lead
> >> for the slings and for your ammunition, reloading equipment, steel for
> >> arrow heads (chipping flint is a real job), stash of bow wood and arrow
> >> shafts, wouldn't hurt to set up a small smithy.

> >
> > Firearms and ammo a definite. I've been considering a bow, maybe a
> > crossbow. A fellow I work with built a powerful recurve bow out of PVC
> > piping. Yew and Ash are more traditional. Of course, learning to fletch
> > arrows would be a good skill too.
> >
> > Oh, did I mention duct tape? Lots and lots of duct tape...
> >

> My ancestors here in the New World made bows from Bois de Arc, aka Osage
> Orange, native tree with inedible fruit. When I was in my early teens I
> made lots of bows from the straight limbs or from saplings. Cut,
> skinned, dried in the attic for about six months to a year. Really good
> wood for bows here in the New World. River cane made excellent, easy to
> make arrows. I used arrow heads cut out of galvanized sheet metal, easy
> to cut and sharpen, not very heavy. Bois de Arc makes good spears and
> quarter staffs too. Made a recurve bow once too, based on the Mongol
> horse bows. Went to the local abattoir and pulled a lot of cow horn out
> of the discard pile and went from there. Took a good while to do it
> right and, since I didn't have a horse at the time I sold it.


I'm WAY too far north for Bois de Arc, alas. Ash, oak, and maple are
fairly common here, maple (box elder) by far the most common. I'm not
sure what would be suitable for arrows... Lots of willow but it may not
be stiff enough at the diameter I'd want.

Back to preserving, my elk hunt is on for later this week, and we hope
to get some boar as well. Bacon, ham and smoked chops from the boar,
hopefully, and as for the elk... sausage, jerky, and lots vacuum sealed
and into the freezer.

My tummy is growling in anticipation. Wish I didn't have to drive 5
hours to get to the hunt zone, though. My Envoy doesn't get the best
mileage towing my trailer...

djb

--
³Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness
sobered, but stupid lasts forever.² -- Aristophanes


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On 2/17/2014 2:18 PM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
> In article >, George Shirley
> > wrote:
>
>> On 2/17/2014 9:58 AM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
>>> In article >, George Shirley
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Not to mention a large supply of various weapons and ammo for them,
>>>> include a few bows and many arrows. Sling shots are good for small game
>>>> and don't make a lot of noise. A large cache of Victor traps and lead
>>>> for the slings and for your ammunition, reloading equipment, steel for
>>>> arrow heads (chipping flint is a real job), stash of bow wood and arrow
>>>> shafts, wouldn't hurt to set up a small smithy.
>>>
>>> Firearms and ammo a definite. I've been considering a bow, maybe a
>>> crossbow. A fellow I work with built a powerful recurve bow out of PVC
>>> piping. Yew and Ash are more traditional. Of course, learning to fletch
>>> arrows would be a good skill too.
>>>
>>> Oh, did I mention duct tape? Lots and lots of duct tape...
>>>

>> My ancestors here in the New World made bows from Bois de Arc, aka Osage
>> Orange, native tree with inedible fruit. When I was in my early teens I
>> made lots of bows from the straight limbs or from saplings. Cut,
>> skinned, dried in the attic for about six months to a year. Really good
>> wood for bows here in the New World. River cane made excellent, easy to
>> make arrows. I used arrow heads cut out of galvanized sheet metal, easy
>> to cut and sharpen, not very heavy. Bois de Arc makes good spears and
>> quarter staffs too. Made a recurve bow once too, based on the Mongol
>> horse bows. Went to the local abattoir and pulled a lot of cow horn out
>> of the discard pile and went from there. Took a good while to do it
>> right and, since I didn't have a horse at the time I sold it.

>
> I'm WAY too far north for Bois de Arc, alas. Ash, oak, and maple are
> fairly common here, maple (box elder) by far the most common. I'm not
> sure what would be suitable for arrows... Lots of willow but it may not
> be stiff enough at the diameter I'd want.

Ash should work pretty good. You can always dry and laminate the various
woods, with the harder woods in the middle. Not difficult to do, my
eleven year old great grandson has some laminate bow wood we cut
together drying in the attic of his home.
>
> Back to preserving, my elk hunt is on for later this week, and we hope
> to get some boar as well. Bacon, ham and smoked chops from the boar,
> hopefully, and as for the elk... sausage, jerky, and lots vacuum sealed
> and into the freezer.

We eat a lot of pork/venison sausage links that we smoke a good bit. We
still put them in the freezer. Very tasty depending on how you season
it. I can't handle it with a lot of cayenne in it anymore but still
tasty with sage and/or seasonings.
>
> My tummy is growling in anticipation. Wish I didn't have to drive 5
> hours to get to the hunt zone, though. My Envoy doesn't get the best
> mileage towing my trailer...
>
> djb
>

I don't know of anything that gets good gas mileage towing a trailer.
It's the sacrifice to the Gods of the Woods hunters and fishermen make.

George
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Dave Balderstone wrote:
....
> Interesting thread.


i've been reading a lot of "old time" and what if
kinds of things recently _When Technology Fails_ is
a great spring board for many other references.

also, the foxfire books (articles taken from a
magazine written by high school kids interviewing
mountain and other folks with various skills).

one fun food preserving example from this weeks
reading:

"bleaching", while i've always been familiar with
sulfides on foods (i'm reactive to them so i gotta
watch out), i'd never heard of it being done by folks
in the past (obviously it was, i'd just never read
about it before).

i always read up on any method to check it for
safety and other considerations, but i am interested
in about anything so it's all interesting and fair
game.

(alt.survival exists, seems ok, but i'm not much
into talk about guns or weapons... *sigh*)


songbird
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In article >, George Shirley
> wrote:

> I don't know of anything that gets good gas mileage towing a trailer.
> It's the sacrifice to the Gods of the Woods hunters and fishermen make.


Yes, but the next truck I get will have a Cummins diesel... If I'm
going to burn copious quantities of hydrocarbons I want some TORQUE.
;-)

--
³Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness
sobered, but stupid lasts forever.² -- Aristophanes
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Dave Balderstone wrote:
>songbird wrote:
>
>> yes, some of those, plenty of fermented foods too,
>> just trying to see what people can think up that is
>> out of the box and not reliant upon manufactured
>> items from far away.
>>
>> also, having plenty of beans and grains on hand
>> for sprouting is a good alternative to not having
>> any fresh greens during the winter months. still
>> i would like to have a full variety of things to work
>> with and choose from. nutrition from a mix of
>> sources.

>
> Back "in the day" (40-50 years ago) we used paraffin for jams, jellies
> and such. Anything else went in the pressure cooker with rubber
> sealers.


yeah, it's not a very reliable method, but for
jams/jellies it was often good enough.


> Not sure what Great Granny used...
>
> Pickles and sauerkraut were left fermenting in crocks in the cold
> cellar... Kimchee (in some recipes) is fermented in crocks that are
> buried in the ground.


*nods*

hams, chunks of meat, often just left in the smoke
house or cellar after they were cured and smoked.

in my recent reading another method was to put the
cured/smoked meats in layers of sifted ashes. somewhat
similar to lye coatings.

and then there are cheeses and yogurts.

spring houses, lakes or ponds can be cool enough
for some refrigeration.


> Humans have been curing meat for centuries. Nitrates/nitrites have
> been/are used (and can be harvested as crystals from manure piles, or
> potash if you happen to live in an area like ours where it very
> common), but as well as drying meat (aka jerky) there's salting (salt
> beef, salt cod) pickling (herring for instance, and corned beef) and of
> course smoking and combinations thereof (curing and smoking ham and
> bacon comes to mind, as well as sausages).


yep.


> Root cellars (caves, if there are any accessible) are critical. Grampa
> had a huge underground one, walled and roofed with timbers then covered
> with soil.
>
> Drying fruits and veggies, of course.
>
> If you have access to grain, you can grind for flour, but best to
> acquire mill stones before the zombie apocalypse.


haha, this is funny, but i have a side thread for
pondering that a bit further. it doesn't fit here
at all. i'll mark it [OT] for those who wish to
filter...


> You may also want to investigate snares and deadfall traps for game.


doing, done, but i am just like that even if i
have absolutely no plans of ever having to do it.
i figure if i cannot kill it, clean it then i'm
not going to be doing any trapping either. i
barely got by fishing, and most of the time i
just did catch and release.


> Stocking up on things like fish hooks, line and snare wire would seem
> to me a good idea.


one ahead of me!


> Learning to weave vessels for storage could be a useful skill as well,
> as is tanning hides. If you're in an area where you have a freeze in
> the winter, an icehouse is a great thing to have for the warmer months.
> You'll want an ice auger and saw.


basic hand tools of all sorts will always come
in useful. i've also got references on hand for
about anything here, chemistry, physics, maths,
biology, blacksmithing/metalworking/machining,
wood working, canning. if i see anything that
looks like it might be useful in the library
book sales i'll add it to my own collection here.

i used to work there, i'd quit in disgust over
many things, i was not surprised by this sort of
direction either. but it sucks when a place you
used to love goes bad and i'd burned too many
bridges with the library board that my comments
would get blank stares. eek, just writing this
small bit has my stomach in knots and i've been
gone for years now. heh... ok, different topic,
see you in the zombie apocolypse OT thread.


> Also don't forget basic medical skills like setting breaks, dealing
> with infection, and serious lacerations or puncture wounds.


got those basics down too.


> Interesting thread.


it was getting a bit quiet, right now it's snowing
again (talking about refrigeration it was close to
0F again last night, 33F is average) and i'm trying
to be patient waiting for spring to come around so
i can get back outside into the gardens and projects.


songbird
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In article >, songbird
> wrote:

> (alt.survival exists, seems ok, but i'm not much
> into talk about guns or weapons... *sigh*)


There's a BIG difference between survival and survivalist. Up here in
the frozen north the winter takes care of a lot all by itself. <g>

We have a ready made deep freeze from November through March. Good for
food storage. For a fridge, you just need to dig deeper than 8 feet
(below the frost line).

djb

--
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sobered, but stupid lasts forever.² -- Aristophanes


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On 2/17/2014 4:49 PM, songbird wrote:
> Dave Balderstone wrote:
>> songbird wrote:
>>
>>> yes, some of those, plenty of fermented foods too,
>>> just trying to see what people can think up that is
>>> out of the box and not reliant upon manufactured
>>> items from far away.
>>>
>>> also, having plenty of beans and grains on hand
>>> for sprouting is a good alternative to not having
>>> any fresh greens during the winter months. still
>>> i would like to have a full variety of things to work
>>> with and choose from. nutrition from a mix of
>>> sources.

>>
>> Back "in the day" (40-50 years ago) we used paraffin for jams, jellies
>> and such. Anything else went in the pressure cooker with rubber
>> sealers.

>
> yeah, it's not a very reliable method, but for
> jams/jellies it was often good enough.
>
>
>> Not sure what Great Granny used...
>>
>> Pickles and sauerkraut were left fermenting in crocks in the cold
>> cellar... Kimchee (in some recipes) is fermented in crocks that are
>> buried in the ground.

>
> *nods*
>
> hams, chunks of meat, often just left in the smoke
> house or cellar after they were cured and smoked.
>
> in my recent reading another method was to put the
> cured/smoked meats in layers of sifted ashes. somewhat
> similar to lye coatings.
>
> and then there are cheeses and yogurts.
>
> spring houses, lakes or ponds can be cool enough
> for some refrigeration.
>
>
>> Humans have been curing meat for centuries. Nitrates/nitrites have
>> been/are used (and can be harvested as crystals from manure piles, or
>> potash if you happen to live in an area like ours where it very
>> common), but as well as drying meat (aka jerky) there's salting (salt
>> beef, salt cod) pickling (herring for instance, and corned beef) and of
>> course smoking and combinations thereof (curing and smoking ham and
>> bacon comes to mind, as well as sausages).

>
> yep.
>
>
>> Root cellars (caves, if there are any accessible) are critical. Grampa
>> had a huge underground one, walled and roofed with timbers then covered
>> with soil.
>>
>> Drying fruits and veggies, of course.
>>
>> If you have access to grain, you can grind for flour, but best to
>> acquire mill stones before the zombie apocalypse.

>
> haha, this is funny, but i have a side thread for
> pondering that a bit further. it doesn't fit here
> at all. i'll mark it [OT] for those who wish to
> filter...
>
>
>> You may also want to investigate snares and deadfall traps for game.

>
> doing, done, but i am just like that even if i
> have absolutely no plans of ever having to do it.
> i figure if i cannot kill it, clean it then i'm
> not going to be doing any trapping either. i
> barely got by fishing, and most of the time i
> just did catch and release.
>
>
>> Stocking up on things like fish hooks, line and snare wire would seem
>> to me a good idea.

>
> one ahead of me!
>
>
>> Learning to weave vessels for storage could be a useful skill as well,
>> as is tanning hides. If you're in an area where you have a freeze in
>> the winter, an icehouse is a great thing to have for the warmer months.
>> You'll want an ice auger and saw.

>
> basic hand tools of all sorts will always come
> in useful. i've also got references on hand for
> about anything here, chemistry, physics, maths,
> biology, blacksmithing/metalworking/machining,
> wood working, canning. if i see anything that
> looks like it might be useful in the library
> book sales i'll add it to my own collection here.
>
> i used to work there, i'd quit in disgust over
> many things, i was not surprised by this sort of
> direction either. but it sucks when a place you
> used to love goes bad and i'd burned too many
> bridges with the library board that my comments
> would get blank stares. eek, just writing this
> small bit has my stomach in knots and i've been
> gone for years now. heh... ok, different topic,
> see you in the zombie apocolypse OT thread.
>
>
>> Also don't forget basic medical skills like setting breaks, dealing
>> with infection, and serious lacerations or puncture wounds.

>
> got those basics down too.
>
>
>> Interesting thread.

>
> it was getting a bit quiet, right now it's snowing
> again (talking about refrigeration it was close to
> 0F again last night, 33F is average) and i'm trying
> to be patient waiting for spring to come around so
> i can get back outside into the gardens and projects.
>
>
> songbird
>

My folks were born in 1905(Mother) and 1911 (Father), grandparents were
born from 1862 to 1880 and 1890. They used all the methods we have
talked about. My father's family were share croppers in Central
Louisiana, mother's family were Cherokee and were migrant farm workers,
stoop labor. Mostly in the area where Oklahoma, Missouri, Kansas, and
Arkansas meet. Dad's family would make pork sausage patties, pour a
layer of lard in a five or ten gallon crock, put down a layer of
sausage, another layer of lard, and continue on until the crock was
full. The crock was then stored in the spring house. Hams, bacon, link
sausages, etc. were moved to the "cool" area of the large smokehouse
once fully smoked and were kept in the light smoke until eaten. There
are many ways you can preserve food in the old styles but you have to
keep an eye on that food as it can spoil rapidly if the surroundings change.

I remember my aunts and mom going through last years canning jars and
tossing out those that went bad and then boiling the jars and rings to
"clean" them. With modern canning technology we are much better off with
both we and our food surviving longer. In addition, having a smoke house
going all the time in survival condition just means the bad guys can
follow their noses to your place. If the economy tanks, always a
possibility nowadays I will stand my ground and do my best to look after
family and friends but I don't think I will ever go into the
"survivalist" mode. Have friends who are and I think they're off about
half a bubble. They spend more time figuring out how to kill someone
than they do figuring out how to grow and save food.

George
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In article >, songbird
> wrote:

> basic hand tools of all sorts will always come
> in useful. i've also got references on hand for
> about anything here, chemistry, physics, maths,
> biology, blacksmithing/metalworking/machining,
> wood working, canning. if i see anything that
> looks like it might be useful in the library
> book sales i'll add it to my own collection here.


Have a peruse of the books he
http://www.leevalley.com/en/gifts/pa...3216&cat=4,104

Lots of woodworking, but some that could be quite useful in other areas.

This pocket ref is always in the truck with me:
<http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/pag...43513,43556,30
039>

--
³Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness
sobered, but stupid lasts forever.² -- Aristophanes
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The Cook wrote:
....
> Frankly I don't think that finding a way to seal glass jars is going
> to do you much good if no one is still producing the jars.


glass making is fairly low tech compared to many of
today's gadgets. if using stocks of recycled glass it
is even easier. just uses a lot of energy to do it.
also, a glazed pot that was strong enough would also
work well enough. it's not the container i'm as curious
and wondering about, but the sealing method/materials
and how they might be replaced.


> Instead of
> trying to figure out how to make today's products work, you best learn
> how people in the 1700's - early 1800's lived, and how long.


i'm doing plenty of that, off and on, it's stuff that
is on the reading list.


> One of the first things you would have to do is dig yourself a well.


already done, the deep well would need a manual
pump to get water out, but it is there and the
water is good.

for other water supply, we are on a very high
water table (two running ditches pretty much all
year run through the property), i can dig down a
few feet and have water. that is one of the only
reasons why i'd consider staying here if the
surrounding area remains stable enough to keep
living without too much hassle.


> Then build an outhouse, more digging.


no, much better to compost and reuse, _the
Humanure Handbook_ is a good reference, it misses
a few things (hormone treatments and chemo or drug
regimens that need to be avoided, but once we are
post-industrial then those kinds of things will
gradually fade from being used and no longer a
concern). as long as you compost human waste it
is safe to use, to be on the safer side you can
let it sit for a year or two longer before using.
once you get the production line going and piles
built then eventuall each year you have a fairly
closed system.


> While you are digging go ahead and dig a root cellar.


too high a water table to dig much here, would
likely put it off to the north of this room as that
would be the best spot for it and that would also
provide more insulation for this room.


> Get yourself some basic tools, nothing that runs on electricity or
> even gas.


pretty much have most of those covered. could
use some extras.


> Livestock. Learn how to butcher them.


check. i don't plan on having to ever do this,
but i do read up on the skill and learn what i
can about basics like tanning hides and using
parts of animals for other purposes.


> Find a source of wood. You will probably have to cut the trees
> yourself.


we're ok on that as long as we can get to the
woods down the road. onsite, only a few trees.
if the surrounding lands are abandoned they will
fill in with poplars fairly quickly if not kept
cleared. i'd rapidly expand the gardens out into
the surrounding fields hoping to be a welcome food
source for many others besides just us here. i
would hope to build a community. luckily we do
know most of our neighbors in some way or another.
i try to pay attention to who has what kinds of
toys and skills.


> Remember too, people had large families. They were necessary to keep
> everything going since one or two people could not do it.


yep, in my case though, i'm only trying to get by
until i'm done and gone. then others can garden here
if they'd like or just let it revert to wildlands.
at least there is a wide range of diversity in place
now and i'm always trying to do more. the ideas of
adding food plants to the fields around me is starting
to happen. next year i'll likely have quite a few
more squash plants and other veggies growing off in
wilder areas in patches. some will not make it, but
some will and they'll be a source of potential food
for us, for critters or for others. it's fun and
it keeps me thinking of systems/layers, nutrient
cycling, soil building, supporting the bees and other
critters.


songbird
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George Shirley wrote:
....
> Remember not to put the well to close to the privy, that's important.


no privy here, too high of a water table and
chances of flooding in some areas, just not worth
the risk, if we are forced to go low tech, i'll
hot pile compost our poo in the highest area i
can build up (making sure that any run off goes
into a non-veggie garden to filter it and keep
it from ruining crops). keeping the pile covered
and managed through time will give safe compost
for garden use.


>> Remember too, people had large families. They were necessary to keep
>> everything going since one or two people could not do it.
>>
>>

> That's why we have so many grands and great grands. Use them as labor
> before the zombies get us or use them for food. Ancient peoples had
> large families for a reason, 1) free labor, 2) food if necessary, look
> at ancient Chinese history, they were open enough to admit it where the
> Europeans kept it quiet.


i recently came across references to this in
the book called _Dirt_ by Montgomery. also to
the fact that while China may recycle human wastes
in the countryside it doesn't mean they avoid
famines (they've suffered an estimated 1800+ number
of famines over the period of recent recorded
history, about one every year and a half). they
would not eat their own children (very often) but
they would sell them to another family...

personally, i don't think enough is gained by
eating people to make it worth it. low quality
contaminated meat from an apex omnivore, not
what i want to be eating. at least for the
first few generations. by the time the
environment recovers i'll be long gone. in the
meantime, use me as compost or bury me right
into a garden. i don't care, at least then the
soil can do most of the detox and the critters
can use what they can and the plants will get
some of it. a fair exchange for what they have
given me.


> I may start watching the myriad of TV shows on the subject. Hmm, may
> need more weapons.
>
> George, enjoying this conversation





songbird
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George Shirley wrote:
....
> Not to mention a large supply of various weapons and ammo for them,
> include a few bows and many arrows. Sling shots are good for small game
> and don't make a lot of noise.


arrows are simple, can just harden the end of the
stick and that will often be good enough for small
game.


> A large cache of Victor traps and lead
> for the slings and for your ammunition, reloading equipment, steel for
> arrow heads (chipping flint is a real job), stash of bow wood and arrow
> shafts, wouldn't hurt to set up a small smithy.


no desire on my part to get into the arms
race all over again. if people want to fight,
i'll try to get out of their way as much as
possible. otherwise, i garden, and try to
enjoy what is as long as i can.


> How about an rfp apocalypse hide out?


this place isn't remote enough, but anyone who
could get here would be welcome as long as they
would help in the gardens. reliable water
supply and a fair number people around who do
have weapons will likely be good enough for any
short term mayhem. the longer term is where it
gets interesting. how the surrounding people
would organize and get along...


songbird


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George Shirley wrote:
....
> My ancestors here in the New World made bows from Bois de Arc, aka Osage
> Orange, native tree with inedible fruit. When I was in my early teens I
> made lots of bows from the straight limbs or from saplings. Cut,
> skinned, dried in the attic for about six months to a year. Really good
> wood for bows here in the New World. River cane made excellent, easy to
> make arrows. I used arrow heads cut out of galvanized sheet metal, easy
> to cut and sharpen, not very heavy. Bois de Arc makes good spears and
> quarter staffs too. Made a recurve bow once too, based on the Mongol
> horse bows. Went to the local abattoir and pulled a lot of cow horn out
> of the discard pile and went from there. Took a good while to do it
> right and, since I didn't have a horse at the time I sold it.


i would have liked to have seen it.


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Dave Balderstone wrote:
>songbird wrote:
>
>> (alt.survival exists, seems ok, but i'm not much
>> into talk about guns or weapons... *sigh*)

>
> There's a BIG difference between survival and survivalist.


sure...


> Up here in
> the frozen north the winter takes care of a lot all by itself. <g>


i'm in mid-michigan now, but have lived in the UP
for 15 years a while back, so i get winter weather
well enough.


> We have a ready made deep freeze from November through March. Good for
> food storage. For a fridge, you just need to dig deeper than 8 feet
> (below the frost line).


won't work here on this site, would have the
cellar above grade to avoid water/flooding
troubles. it's very flat around here. any
hills/elevation you want you have to build it
yourself...


songbird
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George Shirley wrote:
....
> My folks were born in 1905(Mother) and 1911 (Father), grandparents were
> born from 1862 to 1880 and 1890. They used all the methods we have
> talked about. My father's family were share croppers in Central
> Louisiana, mother's family were Cherokee and were migrant farm workers,
> stoop labor. Mostly in the area where Oklahoma, Missouri, Kansas, and
> Arkansas meet. Dad's family would make pork sausage patties, pour a
> layer of lard in a five or ten gallon crock, put down a layer of
> sausage, another layer of lard, and continue on until the crock was
> full. The crock was then stored in the spring house. Hams, bacon, link
> sausages, etc. were moved to the "cool" area of the large smokehouse
> once fully smoked and were kept in the light smoke until eaten. There
> are many ways you can preserve food in the old styles but you have to
> keep an eye on that food as it can spoil rapidly if the surroundings change.


yeah, and that method also requires a large
amount of lard.


> I remember my aunts and mom going through last years canning jars and
> tossing out those that went bad and then boiling the jars and rings to
> "clean" them. With modern canning technology we are much better off with
> both we and our food surviving longer.


somewhat, but in my readings of history it is
not food preservation that has extended life for
most of us, it is basic medical knowledge,
antibiotics, etc. when those become limited we'll
be losing more people to diseases and traumas again.


> In addition, having a smoke house
> going all the time in survival condition just means the bad guys can
> follow their noses to your place.


yep. or they just come and steal your animals
before you can make them into sausage...

one reason i much prefer gardening and also
learning how to garden in wilder ways (off in
different areas, less obviously gardens, putting
in plants that most people don't know as food
plants, etc.). the ideas of food forests and
gorrilla gardening are interesting, along with
the other general ideas of increasing diversity
in various ways. like now i'm adding more
veggies to some of my wilder patches. i may
not ever need them for emergency food sources
or such, but i do like the idea of having them
out there just in case. that the animals will
likely eat most of them doesn't bother me, many
serve the nice double function of also helping
to improve the soil over the long term if they
will open pollinate and reseed themselves.

next year i'm hoping to add a bunch more
squash plants out back to see what happens. it
should be interesting... we just finished
cooking up the last three tonight and they
were still in reasonably good condition. these
ones did not have viable seeds in them, but i
have plenty of seeds from the previous squash.
we didn't lose any of them to spoilage or bugs,
not a one. but we did have a few with a bit of
rot that i had to cut out before cooking.
nothing major. overall it was a great crop for
zero cost and very little time spent other
than planting and harvesting and a bit of
watering when it was dry. i think we had about
30 squash in the tub.


> If the economy tanks, always a
> possibility nowadays I will stand my ground and do my best to look after
> family and friends but I don't think I will ever go into the
> "survivalist" mode.


me either, i would hope to work with the neighbors
to turn the surrounding fields into workable gardens
for everyone and try to make a community of it. i am
not interested in living if all i have to do is fight
and kill. that's too much like what is already going
on in the world in too many places. but then again,
that would be if it were only me. if i still have to
protect Ma then that becomes a bit different, but
that just might mean banding together with one of
the neighboring families that do have weapons and
sharing watch duties and going from there until things
get sorted out.


> Have friends who are and I think they're off about
> half a bubble. They spend more time figuring out how to kill someone
> than they do figuring out how to grow and save food.


i'm trying really hard to not make this a gun
or politics kind of thread...


songbird
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On 2/18/2014 10:13 PM, songbird wrote:
> George Shirley wrote:
> ...
>> My ancestors here in the New World made bows from Bois de Arc, aka Osage
>> Orange, native tree with inedible fruit. When I was in my early teens I
>> made lots of bows from the straight limbs or from saplings. Cut,
>> skinned, dried in the attic for about six months to a year. Really good
>> wood for bows here in the New World. River cane made excellent, easy to
>> make arrows. I used arrow heads cut out of galvanized sheet metal, easy
>> to cut and sharpen, not very heavy. Bois de Arc makes good spears and
>> quarter staffs too. Made a recurve bow once too, based on the Mongol
>> horse bows. Went to the local abattoir and pulled a lot of cow horn out
>> of the discard pile and went from there. Took a good while to do it
>> right and, since I didn't have a horse at the time I sold it.

>
> i would have liked to have seen it.
>
>
> songbird
>

My favorite weapon when I was about ten was a pipe gun. Took a piece of
half inch diameter galvanized steel pipe, bent the handle end into nice
90 degree turn, drilled a small hole at the bend. Put on a pair of
wooden grips with screws. Slide a firecracker fuse first into the pipe,
the fuse came out through the hole. Put in a small ball bearing, light
the fuse and point at what you wanted to hit, usually squirrels and
rabbits. My Dad threw a hissy fit when I showed him what I had made.
Made me ditch my hand gun as dangerous. Wasn't nearly as dangerous as
the dynamite I borrowed from a neighbor and blasted a swimming hole in
the little spring fed branch near the house. Collapsed most of the
drilled wells within a half mile of me. An old powder monkey uncle
taught me how to blast. Back then you could go to the general store and
buy dynamite, if you were an adult. I switched over to black powder and
made my own blasting charges later on, no limit on black powder for
muzzle loaders. Maybe that's why I liked being a gunsmith for about
twenty years as my side job. Lots of fun for kids back in olden times as
my great-grands call my youth.

Off to the family doc this morning, old age is catching up to me again.

George
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In article >, songbird
> wrote:

> already done, the deep well would need a manual
> pump to get water out, but it is there and the
> water is good.


Hmm. Might be an idea to have some junker bicycles and spare chains and
sprockets on hand...

--
³Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness
sobered, but stupid lasts forever.² -- Aristophanes


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In article >, songbird
> wrote:

> won't work here on this site, would have the
> cellar above grade to avoid water/flooding
> troubles. it's very flat around here. any
> hills/elevation you want you have to build it
> yourself..


Ice house, then. Is there a handy source of sawdust within a reasonable
distance?

--
³Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness
sobered, but stupid lasts forever.² -- Aristophanes
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In article >, songbird
> wrote:

> me either, i would hope to work with the neighbors
> to turn the surrounding fields into workable gardens
> for everyone and try to make a community of it. i am
> not interested in living if all i have to do is fight
> and kill. that's too much like what is already going
> on in the world in too many places. but then again,
> that would be if it were only me. if i still have to
> protect Ma then that becomes a bit different, but
> that just might mean banding together with one of
> the neighboring families that do have weapons and
> sharing watch duties and going from there until things
> get sorted out.


If you enjoy sci-fi, grab a copy of Lucifer's Hammer by Larry Niven and
Jerry Pournelle. Post-apocalypse story line (comet strike destroys
civilization), but the prep work and things their characters consider
and act on is well thought out and quite interesting for ideas.

--
³Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness
sobered, but stupid lasts forever.² -- Aristophanes
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Dave Balderstone wrote:
>songbird wrote:
>
>> already done, the deep well would need a manual
>> pump to get water out, but it is there and the
>> water is good.

>
> Hmm. Might be an idea to have some junker bicycles and spare chains and
> sprockets on hand...


or just go get one of those old time windmills
that pump water very reliably (and make sure to
know how to fix it when it breaks, have spare
parts on hand or are able to make, etc.).

for ditchwater i could lift it using wind driven
water wheels. but we don't often need that much
water for the gardens, a simple bucket on a rope
would work.

this is all beyond simple and low tech for most
people... and far afield from preserving too.
better mark this as [OT].


songbird
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Dave Balderstone wrote:
....
> If you enjoy sci-fi, grab a copy of Lucifer's Hammer by Larry Niven and
> Jerry Pournelle. Post-apocalypse story line (comet strike destroys
> civilization), but the prep work and things their characters consider
> and act on is well thought out and quite interesting for ideas.


already read it when it came out those many
years ago. i don't recall much of it at all
now it was that long ago. nowadays, if i want
prep and planning there are more decent books
that will cover it in detail. for good reads
these days, not much of sci-fi or fantasy has
gotten my interest once the vampire craze came
along it really sucked the life out of almost
any thing else (that wasn't meant to be a
pun, but now that i wrote it i like it )...

i did enjoy the ringworld book, not so sure
about the following books, a more recent one
they/he wrote did not work for me.

when i read science fiction i actually do
like there to be actual science involved.
favorite recent author of science fiction that
i like is Alastair Reynolds. he's not much into
apocalyptic literature though (at least not yet).
very imaginative author. i also liked the book
_Wool_ recently. for older stuff i have shelves
of them here. i'm not reading as much fantasy
as i used to. guess when life is fantasy you
no longer need to escape. or me
rereading _the wheel of time_ series when it was
finally finished may have been enough for a
while. (i never count JRRT's Hobbit, TLOTR,
Silmarillion, etc. as fantasy...) much liked
the Dune books written by Frank Herbert. he
passed too early.


songbird
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George Shirley wrote:
....
> My favorite weapon when I was about ten was a pipe gun. Took a piece of
> half inch diameter galvanized steel pipe, bent the handle end into nice
> 90 degree turn, drilled a small hole at the bend. Put on a pair of
> wooden grips with screws. Slide a firecracker fuse first into the pipe,
> the fuse came out through the hole. Put in a small ball bearing, light
> the fuse and point at what you wanted to hit, usually squirrels and
> rabbits. My Dad threw a hissy fit when I showed him what I had made.
> Made me ditch my hand gun as dangerous.


an old friend of the family had one eye, less
fingers and no hearing in one of his ears because
of a fireworks mistake. i had some fun with model
rockets, but otherwise didn't get involved in
things going boom, but i did like my chemistry set.
we won't talk about green food coloring, white
ceilings, vinegar, baking soda, etc... for
critters we had the bb gun. i now repent of my
previous ways and make sure to encourage
frogs/toads. kharma would line me up at the wall
and let the frogs/toads take me out.


> Wasn't nearly as dangerous as
> the dynamite I borrowed from a neighbor and blasted a swimming hole in
> the little spring fed branch near the house. Collapsed most of the
> drilled wells within a half mile of me. An old powder monkey uncle
> taught me how to blast. Back then you could go to the general store and
> buy dynamite, if you were an adult. I switched over to black powder and
> made my own blasting charges later on, no limit on black powder for
> muzzle loaders. Maybe that's why I liked being a gunsmith for about
> twenty years as my side job. Lots of fun for kids back in olden times as
> my great-grands call my youth.


i had some fun helping to "dig" out a pond once.
very impressive.


> Off to the family doc this morning, old age is catching up to me again.


good luck,


songbird


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Dave Balderstone wrote:
>songbird wrote:
>
>> won't work here on this site, would have the
>> cellar above grade to avoid water/flooding
>> troubles. it's very flat around here. any
>> hills/elevation you want you have to build it
>> yourself..

>
> Ice house, then. Is there a handy source of sawdust within a reasonable
> distance?


after the zombie apocalypse? not too likely.
there's huge piles of it in town miles away,
but i suspect that will all burn along with the
pallet mill.

i think a cellar to the north of this room a
bit above grade and bermed well will do good
enough for cool storage. evaporative and
ground cooling passive systems added.

hauling ice chunks from the river may be
tough. the pond a bit out back may be a
reasonable compromise, but the neighbors
would likely get dibs... it's their pond.
to make enough ice right on this property
during the winter would be possible, but i
suspect the challenge will not be food as
much as keeping warm and avoiding the
zombies.


songbird
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