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In the past we've had heated discussions about authenticity fo cuisine,
particularly related to Mexican foof (natch, it is a Mexican cooking group). Here's an Italian weighing in on the subject: There are only two questions to ask about food. Is it good? And is it authentic? We are open to new ideas, but not if it means destroying our history. And food is history. Giuliano Bugialli jim |
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![]() "Jim Lane" wrote in message ... In the past we've had heated discussions about authenticity fo cuisine, particularly related to Mexican foof (natch, it is a Mexican cooking group). Here's an Italian weighing in on the subject: There are only two questions to ask about food. Is it good? And is it authentic? We are open to new ideas, but not if it means destroying our history. And food is history. Giuliano Bugialli jim No reason not to start a conversation about this again Jim. Bugialli is honored, but I suggest a longer list. This list starts to describe authenticity and its destruction or abuse. Food IS history. 1. New ideas should be welcomed, but not at the expense of forgetting or corroding the traditional nor its terminology. 2. An history is reflected in an historical diet. 3. Culture is described by the development of a cuisine. 4. The destruction of a culture is marked by the destruction of its cultural cuisine. 5. The borrowing of food cultures, without the destruction of two or more cultures, can only be accomplished by recognizing the history and culture of both the originator and the borrower. 6. Adaptation and absorption of one food culture into another creating a new sub-cuisine must be reflected in terminology and acceptance of the reality of the new sub-cuisine. Charlie |
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On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:13:43 GMT, "Charles Gifford"
wrote: "Jim Lane" wrote There are only two questions to ask about food. Is it good? And is it authentic? We are open to new ideas, but not if it means destroying our history. And food is history. Giuliano Bugialli No reason not to start a conversation about this again Jim. Bugialli is honored, but I suggest a longer list. This list starts to describe authenticity and its destruction or abuse. Food IS history. 1. New ideas should be welcomed, but not at the expense of forgetting or corroding the traditional nor its terminology. 2. An history is reflected in an historical diet. 3. Culture is described by the development of a cuisine. 4. The destruction of a culture is marked by the destruction of its cultural cuisine. 5. The borrowing of food cultures, without the destruction of two or more cultures, can only be accomplished by recognizing the history and culture of both the originator and the borrower. 6. Adaptation and absorption of one food culture into another creating a new sub-cuisine must be reflected in terminology and acceptance of the reality of the new sub-cuisine. I quarrel passionately with the term 'authentic.' Just taking an American example, look at the recipes/methods for chile or barbecue. Not only are there broad regional differences, but every enthusiastic cook and restaurant has what he/it claims to be the 'authentic' or only correct version. I assume the same is true with regional and individual preferences all over the world. 'Traditional' may be a more appropriate and elastic term. Treating food as a sub-set of definable culture assumes that both exist within some kind of impentrable geographic, temporal, and political fortress, which is patently absurd. Culture and cuisine are *always* changing. Trade, travel, and invasion change culture and food. 'Historic' Mexican meals wouldn't include beef, pork, or goat. No 'historic' European diet would contain tomatoes or potatoes. Indian food would lack chile. The USA would lack apple pie. 'Though these examples came about through contact between the Americas and the 'Old World,' similar interaction occurs constantly between all aspects of culture. Languages change and die out. Costume changes. Religious affiliation changes. Architecture, art, music, literature all change constantly. Food may indeed be history, but that history is hardly one of pure descent from some Ur-cusine of any sort. |
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Jim Lane posted in message
... In the past we've had heated discussions about authenticity fo cuisine, particularly related to Mexican foof (natch, it is a Mexican cooking group). Here's an Italian weighing in on the subject: There are only two questions to ask about food. Is it good? And is it authentic? We are open to new ideas, but not if it means destroying our history. And food is history. Giuliano Bugialli Main Entry: au·then·tic Pronunciation: &-'then-tik, o- Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English autentik, from Middle French autentique, from Late Latin authenticus, from Greek authentikos, from authentEs perpetrator, master, from aut- + -hentEs (akin to Greek anyein to accomplish, Sanskrit sanoti he gains) 1 obsolete : AUTHORITATIVE 2 a : worthy of acceptance or belief as conforming to or based on fact paints an authentic picture of our society b : conforming to an original so as to reproduce essential features an authentic reproduction of a colonial farmhouse c : made or done the same way as an original authentic Mexican fare 3 : not false or imitation : REAL, ACTUAL based on authentic documents an authentic cockney accent 4 a of a church mode : ranging upward from the keynote -- compare PLAGAL 1 b of a cadence : progressing from the dominant chord to the tonic -- compare PLAGAL 2 5 : true to one's own personality, spirit, or character - au·then·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb - au·then·tic·i·ty /"o-"then-'ti-s&-tE, -th&n-/ noun Pasta, tomatoes, and many spices used in many "authentic" dishes being trumpeted loudly nowadays were not always part of the Italian diet (prior to their stealing them from other cultures and lands). How does Mr. Bugialli justify the use of these items and dishes? Does authenticity have to be a certain age before traditionalists will accept it? Do the cultures that provided these dishes and foods have to be completely subverted and/or destroyed before the superceding culture accepts them as their own? "Authenticity" is an albatross, an achor, hanging about a recipe's neck, always dragging at it, attempting to push it below the surface before the dogmatic-bound accept it. The Ranger |
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The Ranger wrote:
Jim Lane posted in message ... In the past we've had heated discussions about authenticity fo cuisine, particularly related to Mexican foof (natch, it is a Mexican cooking group). Here's an Italian weighing in on the subject: snip "Authenticity" is an albatross, an achor, hanging about a recipe's neck, always dragging at it, attempting to push it below the surface before the dogmatic-bound accept it. The Ranger Interesting. Perhaps to those who are not themselves "authentic?" To those "mongrels" without a sense of history? Is there any reason why "authentic" should perish, in any aspect of life, other than making those who are not, uncomfortable? That is what your diatribe carries with it Ranger, your discomfort with the word. Your alienation from the authentic. Were it valueless, you would ignore it. Can you? Or do your hackles rise every time this comes up? Is not the authentic the foundation upon which everything else is built? Seems anarchists would be most interested is destroying or denigrating authenticity (history), even in food. There will be no rules, anything goes. "Authentic" is the base, Ranger, not an albatross. It gives something its history. It does not drag anything anywhere, especially down or pushing it below anything else. Not really. But authenticity does exist. Like it or not, something can rightfully be judged on its authenticity. If it is not, it is not. That does not speak to whether or not it tastes good, looks good, smell good. Only if it is authentic or not. You are correct there are those who get overly hung up on the concept of things having to be authentic. However, those individuals lie on both sides of the issue, Ranger. Are you not as dogmatic as those you point your finger at? On the other side of the issue, but nevertheless, dogmatic? jim |
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Charles Gifford wrote:
"Jim Lane" wrote in message ... In the past we've had heated discussions about authenticity fo cuisine, particularly related to Mexican foof (natch, it is a Mexican cooking group). Here's an Italian weighing in on the subject: There are only two questions to ask about food. Is it good? And is it authentic? We are open to new ideas, but not if it means destroying our history. And food is history. Giuliano Bugialli jim No reason not to start a conversation about this again Jim. Bugialli is honored, but I suggest a longer list. This list starts to describe authenticity and its destruction or abuse. Food IS history. 1. New ideas should be welcomed, but not at the expense of forgetting or corroding the traditional nor its terminology. 2. An history is reflected in an historical diet. 3. Culture is described by the development of a cuisine. 4. The destruction of a culture is marked by the destruction of its cultural cuisine. 5. The borrowing of food cultures, without the destruction of two or more cultures, can only be accomplished by recognizing the history and culture of both the originator and the borrower. 6. Adaptation and absorption of one food culture into another creating a new sub-cuisine must be reflected in terminology and acceptance of the reality of the new sub-cuisine. Charlie Great list, Charlie. Each of these topics deserves its own thread. If no one else has divided this up, I'll do it later tonight. jim |
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Frogleg wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:13:43 GMT, "Charles Gifford" wrote: "Jim Lane" wrote There are only two questions to ask about food. Is it good? And is it authentic? We are open to new ideas, but not if it means destroying our history. And food is history. Giuliano Bugialli No reason not to start a conversation about this again Jim. Bugialli is honored, but I suggest a longer list. This list starts to describe authenticity and its destruction or abuse. Food IS history. 1. New ideas should be welcomed, but not at the expense of forgetting or corroding the traditional nor its terminology. 2. An history is reflected in an historical diet. 3. Culture is described by the development of a cuisine. 4. The destruction of a culture is marked by the destruction of its cultural cuisine. 5. The borrowing of food cultures, without the destruction of two or more cultures, can only be accomplished by recognizing the history and culture of both the originator and the borrower. 6. Adaptation and absorption of one food culture into another creating a new sub-cuisine must be reflected in terminology and acceptance of the reality of the new sub-cuisine. I quarrel passionately with the term 'authentic.' Just taking an American example, look at the recipes/methods for chile or barbecue. Good thoughts, Frogleg. I'll divide the list up into separate threads later tonight. It should help keep things "clean." So we don't have a quoting problem, would you then cut and paste your thoughts to the individual threads? Hmmm, I see I'll probably have to do the subthreads now. Oh well, its only a short delay for my ride. jim |
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Charles Gifford wrote:
1. New ideas should be welcomed, but not at the expense of forgetting or corroding the traditional nor its terminology. |
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Charles Gifford wrote:
2. An history is reflected in an historical diet. |
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Charles Gifford wrote:
3. Culture is described by the development of a cuisine. |
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Charles Gifford wrote:
4. The destruction of a culture is marked by the destruction of its cultural cuisine. |
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Charles Gifford wrote:
5. The borrowing of food cultures, without the destruction of two or more cultures, can only be accomplished by recognizing the history and culture of both the originator and the borrower. |
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Charles Gifford wrote:
6. Adaptation and absorption of one food culture into another creating a new sub-cuisine must be reflected in terminology and acceptance of the reality of the new sub-cuisine. |
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Giuliano Bugialli.
Yep, this from a guy whose cooking classes I have taken who dumps so much salt into his dishes that only an Italian could love them. Italians have a long tradition of oversalting their food. So I guess it would destroy his history by using a little less salt? Sorry about my rant here, but I got really depressed in his cooking class when I saw how much salt he was throwing into everything. |
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Jimmy-Bob-Jumbo asked rhetorically throughout
message ... ["Authenticity is" text elided] I'm sorry to see that you're no better at reading here than in sdnet.eats but I'll make it easy on you so there's less strain this time. Authenticity is not the base for anything except what the cook believes it to be. I can easily point out that dishes that substitute anything non-native (olive oil, corn, pork, beef) for those regions a cook is attempting to mimic; none of those dishes that used those verboten products can ever be "authentic." Because those items were not available to Mayans or Aztecs (or the Yuccans). Yet each culture has adapted their cooking, acceptance of different -- and new -- foods, methods for preparing those new foods, and manners in which to serve them as items became more available through trade. A culture that holds so rigidly to the past will be supplanted -- often violently -- while those that adapt and change to suit the population stay around longer. The Ranger -- When you momentarily shifted from your customary pathological diatribes [..] I began thinking your pills were working. Recent behavior indicates, however, that you've been breaking them in half. -- Oorah!!, sdnet.eats, 6/19/03 |
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