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| Historic (rec.food.historic) Discussing and discovering how food was made and prepared way back when--From ancient times down until (& possibly including or even going slightly beyond) the times when industrial revolution began to change our lives. |
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Lobster
TMO wrote:
> >...and then there were the servants of 18th century littoral New England on >several occasions revolting against the practice of being fed on lobster, >then the cheapest of seafood products. I've read this for years in secondary sources. Anyone ever found a primary source that said this? Andy Smith |
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Lobster
>
>I have not seen it in a primary source. My memory of the account I did >see was that it was a contract in which A was borrowing B's indentured >servants, and agreeing not to feed them lobster more than X days a week. > >-- I've heard a similar story for sturgeon, i.e. loggers signing contracts for eating sturgeon only three days a week. Don't recall seeing a primary source on this story either... Andy Smith |
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Lobster
In article >, ASmith1946
> wrote: > > > >I have not seen it in a primary source. My memory of the account I did > >see was that it was a contract in which A was borrowing B's indentured > >servants, and agreeing not to feed them lobster more than X days a week. > > > >-- > > > I've heard a similar story for sturgeon, i.e. loggers signing contracts for > eating sturgeon only three days a week. Don't recall seeing a primary source > on > this story either... > > Andy Smith I'm afraid that this exists as a tale in the Uk, too, with both salmon and oysters. Lazarus -- Remover the rock from the email address |
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Lobster
>> I have not seen it in a primary source. My memory of the account I did >> see was that it was a contract in which A was borrowing B's indentured >> servants, and agreeing not to feed them lobster more than X days a week. > I've heard a similar story for sturgeon, i.e. loggers signing > contracts for eating sturgeon only three days a week. Don't recall > seeing a primary source on this story either... And there is a similar urban legend about a contract for servants in London in the 18th or 19th century, the fish being salmon. No primary source I know of for that one, either. ========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <======== Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music. |
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Lobster
Lazarus Cooke wrote:
>In article >, ASmith1946 > wrote: > >>> >>>I have not seen it in a primary source. My memory of the account I did >>>see was that it was a contract in which A was borrowing B's indentured >>>servants, and agreeing not to feed them lobster more than X days a week. >>> >>>-- > > >>I've heard a similar story for sturgeon, i.e. loggers signing contracts for >>eating sturgeon only three days a week. Don't recall seeing a primary source >>on >>this story either... > >I'm afraid that this exists as a tale in the Uk, too, with both salmon >and oysters. I have had a first-person account of not quite the same thing, for salmon. A mathematical colleague of mine (Stepan Orevkov, now of the Universite Paul Sabatier) fulfilled part of his military obligations to the then-USSR as part of a group doing geodetic surveys in the Russian Far East (I think the Kamchatka Peninsula, but am not sure). He told me, one evening when we were dining in Toulouse and he had declined the salmon appetizer at our chosen restaurant, that for about three months he had eaten (fresh-caught) salmon at every meal, and thereafter had never yet wanted to eat it again. Lee Rudolph |
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Lobster
Lazarus Cooke wrote:
> > In article >, ASmith1946 > > wrote: > > > > > > >I have not seen it in a primary source. My memory of the account I did > > >see was that it was a contract in which A was borrowing B's indentured > > >servants, and agreeing not to feed them lobster more than X days a week. > > > > > >-- > > > > > > I've heard a similar story for sturgeon, i.e. loggers signing contracts for > > eating sturgeon only three days a week. Don't recall seeing a primary source > > on > > this story either... > > > > Andy Smith > I'm afraid that this exists as a tale in the Uk, too, with both salmon > and oysters. > > Lazarus > > -- > Remover the rock from the email address Here both student and apprentice riots on these issues in the middle ages are fairly well documented. Lucky buggers! In my day we could barely afford a cheese butty and pint of Newcastle Brown Ale at 11p a pint in the college bar! Salmon & oysters! Cor! -- Kate XXXXXX Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk Click on Kate's Pages and explore! |
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Lobster
Lee Rudolph wrote:
> > Lazarus Cooke wrote: > > >In article >, ASmith1946 > > wrote: > > > >>> > >>>I have not seen it in a primary source. My memory of the account I did > >>>see was that it was a contract in which A was borrowing B's indentured > >>>servants, and agreeing not to feed them lobster more than X days a week. > >>> > >>>-- > > > > > >>I've heard a similar story for sturgeon, i.e. loggers signing contracts for > >>eating sturgeon only three days a week. Don't recall seeing a primary source > >>on > >>this story either... > > > >I'm afraid that this exists as a tale in the Uk, too, with both salmon > >and oysters. > > I have had a first-person account of not quite the same thing, for salmon. > A mathematical colleague of mine (Stepan Orevkov, now of the Universite > Paul Sabatier) fulfilled part of his military obligations to the > then-USSR as part of a group doing geodetic surveys in the Russian > Far East (I think the Kamchatka Peninsula, but am not sure). He > told me, one evening when we were dining in Toulouse and he had > declined the salmon appetizer at our chosen restaurant, that for > about three months he had eaten (fresh-caught) salmon at every meal, > and thereafter had never yet wanted to eat it again. > > Lee Rudolph I felt much the same for over a year after working in a chicken processing factory for my 16th summer... -- Kate XXXXXX Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk Click on Kate's Pages and explore! |
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Lobster
In article >, Kate Dicey
> wrote: > Here both student and apprentice riots on these issues in the middle > ages are fairly well documented. Hi Kate. Are you sure? I've always heard it but I'm filled with a horrible fear that it might be one of those stories.... L -- Remover the rock from the email address |
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Lobster
Lazarus Cooke wrote:
> > In article >, Kate Dicey > > wrote: > > > Here both student and apprentice riots on these issues in the middle > > ages are fairly well documented. > > Hi Kate. Are you sure? I've always heard it but I'm filled with a > horrible fear that it might be one of those stories.... > > L > > -- > Remover the rock from the email address Both my long departed dad and Big Sis read history at university. First time I heard about this was when they were discussing it. I can't remember the references after 20+ years, but you need to dig into court rolls and the like and see who was brought before the courts for riotous behaviour and assault. Oxford and Cambridge both suffered, and some of the older colleges have accounts in their documents, I think. My grandmother lived next door to one of the girls who gutted the herring catch in the little coastal fishing villages of Fife in the early 20th C, and she used to tell tales of having fish fights, when there were so many herring everyone got sick of them and used them as ammunition in local disputes! YEKK! Tired ole herring STINKS! I wish I had time to look into this more fully, but I'm just taking a break from bridesmaid outfits and a sewing machine on the fritz! -- Kate XXXXXX Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk Click on Kate's Pages and explore! |
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Lobster
"Kate Dicey" > wrote in message
- > early 20th C, and she used to tell tales of having fish fights, when > there were so many herring everyone got sick of them and used them as > ammunition in local disputes! YEKK! Tired ole herring STINKS! "Fish fights"... The idea is entrancing. I see a movie: "Gangs of Fife". Could "fish fights" be the antecedents of today's "food fights"? -- Bob Kanyak's Doghouse http://kanyak.com |
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Lobster
On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 22:41:24 +0200, "Opinicus" >
wrote: >"Fish fights"... The idea is entrancing. I see a movie: "Gangs of Fife". > >Could "fish fights" be the antecedents of today's "food fights"? I suspect that food fights go back a long, long way. There's a great passage in Castiglione's "The Courtier": Many times they shoulder one another downe the stayers, and hurle billettes and brickes, one at an others head. They hurle handfulles of dust in mens eyes. Thei cast horse and man into ditches, or downe on the side of some hill. Then at table, potage, sauce, gelies, and what ever commeth to hande, into the face it goith. And afterwarde laughe: and whoso can doe most of these trickes, he counteth himselfe the best and galantest Courtyer, and supposeth that he hath wonne great glorye. Baldassare Castiglione, "Il Cortegiano", 1528 Translation by Sir Thomas Hoby (1561) http://www.uoregon.edu/~rbear/courtier/courtier2.html Robin Carroll-Mann "Mostly Harmless" -- Douglas Adams To email me, remove the fish |
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Lobster
>>>> I have not seen it in a primary source. My memory of the account I did >>>> see was that it was a contract in which A was borrowing B's indentured >>>> servants, and agreeing not to feed them lobster more than X days a week. >>> I've heard a similar story for sturgeon, i.e. loggers signing contracts >>> for eating sturgeon only three days a week. Don't recall seeing a >>> primary source on this story either... >> I'm afraid that this exists as a tale in the Uk, too, with both salmon >> and oysters. > Here both student and apprentice riots on these issues in the middle > ages are fairly well documented. Show us the documentation, then. I have read some primary sources on student riots in the Middle Ages and I don't believe you. ========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <======== Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music. |
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Lobster
>My grandmother lived next door to one of the girls who gutted the >herring catch in the little coastal fishing villages of Fife in the >early 20th C, and she used to tell tales of having fish fights, when >there were so many herring everyone got sick of them and used them as >ammunition in local disputes! YEKK! Tired ole herring STINKS! Herring are money. People in a fishing village don't get sick of their primary source of income. But there is at least one well-known case from the period of fish being thrown as weapons, simply because they were the handiest available - look up the recent book on the Eyemouth disaster. There had been an acrimonious dispute about the Church of Scotland collecting local taxes for its ministry, when most of the locals didn't belong to it (they were typically Brethren). So the Kirk's minister and his bailiffs got bombarded with fish when they turned up to exercise their authority, and in that situation you're hardly likely to make sure that every fish you biff at the opposition is within its sell-by date. We used to drop spleens in each other's boots or hurl rectums across the factory floor when I worked in a New Zealand slaughterhouse. The sensation of a lukewarm rectum wrapping itself round your neck like a scarf is one you don't forget in a hurry. ========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <======== Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music. |
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Lobster
bogus address muttered....
> >>>>> I have not seen it in a primary source. My memory of the account I >>>>> did see was that it was a contract in which A was borrowing B's >>>>> indentured servants, and agreeing not to feed them lobster more >>>>> than X days a week. >>>> I've heard a similar story for sturgeon, i.e. loggers signing >>>> contracts for eating sturgeon only three days a week. Don't recall >>>> seeing a primary source on this story either... >>> I'm afraid that this exists as a tale in the Uk, too, with both >>> salmon and oysters. >> Here both student and apprentice riots on these issues in the middle >> ages are fairly well documented. > > Show us the documentation, then. > > I have read some primary sources on student riots in the Middle Ages > and I don't believe you. > Absent "evidence", the anecdotal accounts of discord among the small servant class of New England over too much lobster and/or salmon and similar tales from the UK remain quite credible. A semester or two in the dormitories of my youth provide all the confirmation of "student reaction" required. Why, in 1957, the tuna and noodles in the Wll Rice College Commons had the students marching on the President's home demanding relief... The stories are too frequent, too reasonable and so well attuned to observations of human nature today to have much deniability on the grounds of "lack of evidence". I find the tales as credible as my sincere belief that many/most/some of mine and thine ancestry were adept at picking their noses (although little documentary or graphic evidence of same is available). I used to be fascinated by constant references to "pemmican" as a foodstuff enjoyed by Native Americans. After actually trying some, I better understood that AmerIndians (along with every one else) ate what was available and like students, sailors and most others, complained loudly and often about it. I suspect that boiled lobster gets old after daily doses for a few weeks. I'd like to try, but will admit to once having tired of beefsteak after two meals a day for 10 days. Enough to make me desperately desire a bowl of grits, even without butter.... .....and I've known merchant mariners, sailors and officers, who would never eat any seafood of any sort... TMO |
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Lobster
In article >, Olivers
> wrote: > The stories are too frequent, too reasonable and so well attuned to > observations of human nature today to have much deniability on the grounds > of "lack of evidence". So do stories about the sun going round the earth. Any other theory defies common sense and the evidence of my eyes. Lazarus -- Remover the rock from the email address |
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Lobster
Lazarus Cooke muttered....
> In article >, Olivers > > wrote: > >> The stories are too frequent, too reasonable and so well attuned to >> observations of human nature today to have much deniability on the >> grounds of "lack of evidence". > > So do stories about the sun going round the earth. Any other theory > defies common sense and the evidence of my eyes. > You realize of course that it does. It's all a matter of perspective. Why every noon I used to have to go out on the Bridge Wing with my sextant to wait for it to reach its zenith and pass by on the way around, thus signifying that local Noon had arrived. Of course, meanwhile the stars are running their predictable courses around the earth so they can arrive at the altitude necessary for dawn's fix. Why would you disbelieve repeated and quite reasonbale anecdotes of groups forced to dine repeatedly on foods unfamiliar to their childhood and previous experiences and objecting to same? I suspect that an individual raised in rural England, unlikely to have ever eaten fresh fish, transported on a diet of salt meat and dried peas to cold new England and forces to eat boiled salmon and lobster every day could be expected to raise his/her voice in objection. Let's face it...caviar in your baked potato goes well for the first week, but there comes a night when you'll beg for bacon. TMO |
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Lobster
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 17:43:03 -0600, Olivers >
wrote: > I suspect that an individual >raised in rural England, unlikely to have ever eaten fresh fish, >transported on a diet of salt meat and dried peas to cold new England and >forces to eat boiled salmon and lobster every day could be expected to >raise his/her voice in objection. And how much more so when it's badly cooked, as it likely was... -- rbc: vixen Fairly harmless Hit reply to email. But strip out the 'invalid.' Though I'm very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli |
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Lobster
In article >, Olivers
> wrote: > Lazarus Cooke muttered.... > > > > > So do stories about the sun going round the earth. Any other theory > > defies common sense and the evidence of my eyes. > > > > You realize of course that it does. I do > Why would you disbelieve repeated and quite reasonbale anecdotes of groups > forced to dine repeatedly on foods unfamiliar to their childhood and > previous experiences and objecting to same? I don't necessarily disbelieve them. I just become suspicious when the same tale (which has a moral attached) pops up all over the place, and yet I haven't seen a primary source. When I see a primary source that I can check, I'll believe it. Until then, I'll stay wary. (I don't want to start talking about WMD...) Lazarus -- Remover the rock from the email address |
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Lobster
On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 10:37:47 +0000, Lazarus Cooke
> wrote: >In article >, Olivers > wrote: > >> Lazarus Cooke muttered.... >> > >> > >> > So do stories about the sun going round the earth. Any other theory >> > defies common sense and the evidence of my eyes. >> > >> >> You realize of course that it does. > >I do > >> Why would you disbelieve repeated and quite reasonbale anecdotes of groups >> forced to dine repeatedly on foods unfamiliar to their childhood and >> previous experiences and objecting to same? > >I don't necessarily disbelieve them. I just become suspicious when the >same tale (which has a moral attached) pops up all over the place, and >yet I haven't seen a primary source. > Pops up all over the place? In northern colonies of a country that has never been big on cooking prowess or known for lavishing unnecessary expense on apprentices or indentured servants? And just what is the moral? I missed that part. I thought it was about people getting tired of the same food every day, even though it is now expensive. >When I see a primary source that I can check, I'll believe it. Until >then, I'll stay wary. > (I don't want to start talking about WMD...) > >Lazarus Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a "Be careful. The toe you stepped on yesterday may be connected to the ass you have to kiss today." --Former mayor Ciancia |
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Lobster
Olivers > nattered on
: > The stories are too frequent, too reasonable and so well attuned to > observations of human nature today to have much deniability on the > grounds of "lack of evidence". I suggest that you go look up what an "urban legend" is and how they are propagated, no matter how false they actually are. |
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Lobster
Michel Boucher > nattered on
. 17: > (ASmith1946) wrote in > : > >> TMO wrote: >>>...and then there were the servants of 18th century littoral New >>>England on several occasions revolting against the practice of >>>being fed on lobster, then the cheapest of seafood products. >> >> I've read this for years in secondary sources. Anyone ever found a >> primary source that said this? > > The farmers of Prince Edward Island, well-known for its lobsters, > never ate them, but picked up beached ones and ground them into the > soil as fertilizer. Tourism made lobsters an industry commodity. And how often did they riot over being required to eat them? > There's a related passage in the film Mystic Pizza where the daughter And this was a documentary, right? |
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Lobster
> primary source that said this?
> >The farmers of Prince Edward Island, well-known for its lobsters, >never ate them, but picked up beached ones and ground them into the >soil as fertilizer. Tourism made lobsters an industry commodity. In Colonial America, the lobster was considered a hunger food. They were eaten when necessary and were not considered a delicacy. BTW, there were early reports of lobsters that were 6 feet in length, but one account claimed that the smaller lobsters tasted better. I have never understood why lobsters became so important during the 1950s in America. They are essentially tasteless without sauces. Oysters, on the other hand, were so common in New York during colonial times that they were considered both a delicacy and food for the poor. Andy Smith |
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Lobster
Bryan J. Maloney muttered....
> Olivers > nattered on > : > > >> The stories are too frequent, too reasonable and so well attuned to >> observations of human nature today to have much deniability on the >> grounds of "lack of evidence". > > I suggest that you go look up what an "urban legend" is and how they are > propagated, no matter how false they actually are. > > > Since I remain a regular reader and contributor to the a.f.u ng (That alt.folklore.urban), the home of urban legends, I suspect I'm quite well attuned to the credible/incredible threshold of such legends. This is a subject which googling may open entirely new and unconsidered vistas to you about lobsters and other delicacies for the identured staff... Hint: The literary references alone would serve to validate the "legend". TMO |
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Lobster
"ASmith1946" > wrote
> I have never understood why lobsters became so important during the 1950s in > America. They are essentially tasteless without sauces. Tasteless? I must demur. (Could the ability to taste the sublimity of lobster be a genetic thing, perhaps?) > Oysters, on the other hand, were so common in New York during colonial times > that they were considered both a delicacy and food for the poor. Oysters in any form make me gag. As a kid I remember going to bed hungry one night after refusing to eat an "oyster stew". -- Bob Kanyak's Doghouse http://kanyak.com |
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Lobster
"Bryan J. Maloney" > wrote in
93.32: >> The farmers of Prince Edward Island, well-known for its lobsters, >> never ate them, but picked up beached ones and ground them into >> the soil as fertilizer. Tourism made lobsters an industry >> commodity. > > And how often did they riot over being required to eat them? They didn't. But then again, they considered the lobster to be beneath the horizon of human consumption, as did many people in the past, which may explain why the others rioted, if they felt they were being fed with food they felt was not suitable. Like, get with the program, already. >> There's a related passage in the film Mystic Pizza where the >> daughter > > And this was a documentary, right? Yes, if it makes you happy. It's what we call in the history biz an allusion which is a literary device used by people who have a modicum of culture to help illustrate points. It is least likely to be understood by those lacking said modicum of culture, or humourless buffoons. Take your pick. -- "I'm the master of low expectations." GWB, aboard Air Force One, 04Jun2003 |
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Lobster
> > Hint: The literary references alone would serve to validate the "legend". > > TMO eh? L -- Remover the rock from the email address |
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Lobster
> > And just what is the moral? I missed that part. I thought it was about > people getting tired of the same food every day, even though it is now > expensive. The moral is that even the finest products provide no true comfort. Compare the Princess and the pea, or most fairy stories. L -- Remover the rock from the email address |
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Lobster
> Oysters in any form make me gag. As a kid I remember going to bed hungry one > night after refusing to eat an "oyster stew". There's no excuse for stewing oysters L -- Remover the rock from the email address |
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Lobster
In article >, Michel
Boucher > wrote: > (ASmith1946) wrote in > : > > > Oysters, on the other hand, were so common in New York during > > colonial times that they were considered both a delicacy and food > > for the poor. > > The people living in the Sorel islands fished eels, not for local > consumption, because they thought it was a vile animal, but for sale to > the best restaurants of New York where it was considered a delicacy. > The railway linking New York to Montréal was built primarily to meet > the demand in eel flesh. Hungry people, I can assure you, don't fuss that much. There are plenty of populations where intelligent, sensitive people eat the same food day in , day out, year in, year out, and are glad to get it. L -- Remover the rock from the email address |
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Lobster
Michel Boucher > nattered on
. 17: > Yes, if it makes you happy. It's what we call in the history biz an > allusion which is a literary device used by people who have a modicum > of culture to help illustrate points. It is least likely to be > understood by those lacking said modicum of culture, or humourless > buffoons. Take your pick. > Ah, you mean pathetic little pricks like you. |
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Lobster
On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 22:04:06 +0000, Lazarus Cooke
> wrote: > >> >> And just what is the moral? I missed that part. I thought it was about >> people getting tired of the same food every day, even though it is now >> expensive. > >The moral is that even the finest products provide no true comfort. >Compare the Princess and the pea, or most fairy stories. > If I'd have been thinking of a moral for it, it would have been 'monotony breeds boredom and boredom breeds action.' -- rbc: vixen Fairly harmless Hit reply to email. But strip out the 'invalid.' Though I'm very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli |
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On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 21:20:53 +0200, "Opinicus" >
wrote: >> Oysters, on the other hand, were so common in New York during colonial >times >> that they were considered both a delicacy and food for the poor. > >Oysters in any form make me gag. As a kid I remember going to bed hungry one >night after refusing to eat an "oyster stew". > To each his own. My mother in law feels the same way, so you are not alone. Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a "Be careful. The toe you stepped on yesterday may be connected to the ass you have to kiss today." --Former mayor Ciancia |
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Lobster
On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 22:04:06 +0000, Lazarus Cooke
> wrote: > >> >> And just what is the moral? I missed that part. I thought it was about >> people getting tired of the same food every day, even though it is now >> expensive. > >The moral is that even the finest products provide no true comfort. >Compare the Princess and the pea, or most fairy stories. > Oh. Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a "Be careful. The toe you stepped on yesterday may be connected to the ass you have to kiss today." --Former mayor Ciancia |
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Lobster
"Bryan J. Maloney" > wrote in
93.32: > Michel Boucher > nattered on > . 17: > >> Yes, if it makes you happy. It's what we call in the history biz >> an allusion which is a literary device used by people who have a >> modicum of culture to help illustrate points. It is least likely >> to be understood by those lacking said modicum of culture, or >> humourless buffoons. Take your pick. > > Ah, you mean pathetic little pricks like you. Ouch. Boy, do I feel put in my place. Bwahaha!!!! -- "I'm the master of low expectations." GWB, aboard Air Force One, 04Jun2003 |
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