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Old 26-07-2013, 12:15 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default Pots and pans.

I just ordered a metal, deep lasagna pan. Thank you Sheldon for the link!
I did not get the one you posted at Amazon but the deeper one at OSP/Brylane
Home. The link for it showed below but when I tried to order it, the link
was no longer valid. I did however track it down and I also ordered this:

http://www.brylanehome.com/decor/4Ot...3&StyleNo=0385

So I should be set for a while at least with pots and pans. But... It
occurred to me just now that I rarely use any of my smaller pans any more.
I guess my microwave has replaced those things! Used to be if I needed to
reheat a leftover, I would use the oven or the top of the stove. Now I
rarely reheat leftovers this way. Perhaps soup because if done in the
microwave, the container I use gets too hot.

I do have a large Revereware Dutch Oven but they do not make Revereware like
they used to. Hopefully this will work better. Mostly I use my two
Circulon pans, one being like a deep skillet and the other more of a rounded
shape but still like a skillet, my Rachael Ray pasta pot or my old
Revereware pan that I pop popcorn in. I tend to use that for other things
too. Rice, heating a can of soup, etc. I think I have only pulled out my
smaller pans maybe a few times since I moved here.

Do you find that you use your pans less now, if you have a microwave? I
realize that not all people here do have them. My mom doesn't cook a lot
but when she does, she seems to use a lot of pans. Perhaps more than I
would if I were to make the same meal.



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Old 26-07-2013, 01:15 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default Pots and pans.

On 7/25/13 7:15 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
I just ordered a metal, deep lasagna pan. Thank you Sheldon for the link!
I did not get the one you posted at Amazon but the deeper one at OSP/Brylane
Home. The link for it showed below but when I tried to order it, the link
was no longer valid. I did however track it down and I also ordered this:

http://www.brylanehome.com/decor/4Ot...3&StyleNo=0385

So I should be set for a while at least with pots and pans. But... It
occurred to me just now that I rarely use any of my smaller pans any more.
I guess my microwave has replaced those things! Used to be if I needed to
reheat a leftover, I would use the oven or the top of the stove. Now I
rarely reheat leftovers this way. Perhaps soup because if done in the
microwave, the container I use gets too hot.

I do have a large Revereware Dutch Oven but they do not make Revereware like
they used to. Hopefully this will work better. Mostly I use my two
Circulon pans, one being like a deep skillet and the other more of a rounded
shape but still like a skillet, my Rachael Ray pasta pot or my old
Revereware pan that I pop popcorn in. I tend to use that for other things
too. Rice, heating a can of soup, etc. I think I have only pulled out my
smaller pans maybe a few times since I moved here.

Do you find that you use your pans less now, if you have a microwave? I
realize that not all people here do have them. My mom doesn't cook a lot
but when she does, she seems to use a lot of pans. Perhaps more than I
would if I were to make the same meal.


I've got lots of expensive pans I haven't used for years. A cheap 1-qt
Revere pan and a cheap iron skillet with a silicone cover (fries and
bakes) would handle almost everything. (I've even melted the copper on
the pan, but when I've overheated it, a couple of hammer taps will get
it to sit flat.) If I overheat the skillet, I can season it with
linseed oil. When my microwave failed, I decided I was better off
without one.

Now my cheap 6-qt aluminum pressure cooker has become my favorite.
Because it can take advantage of a full-size burner and the aluminum
spreads the heat well, it will heat a given amount of food faster than
most pans, with no stirring. The pressure ensures that everything gets
hot and minimizes the heat and humidity in the kitchen. For some
purposes there's no need to come up to full temperature. It's light and
easy to clean.

Unlike a microwave, my pans don't have timers. For that, I have a
digital beeper on the side of the refrigerator.
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Old 26-07-2013, 02:08 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default Pots and pans.

On 7/25/2013 5:15 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
I just ordered a metal, deep lasagna pan. Thank you Sheldon for the link!
I did not get the one you posted at Amazon but the deeper one at OSP/Brylane
Home. The link for it showed below but when I tried to order it, the link
was no longer valid. I did however track it down and I also ordered this:

http://www.brylanehome.com/decor/4Ot...3&StyleNo=0385

So I should be set for a while at least with pots and pans. But... It
occurred to me just now that I rarely use any of my smaller pans any more.
I guess my microwave has replaced those things! Used to be if I needed to
reheat a leftover, I would use the oven or the top of the stove. Now I
rarely reheat leftovers this way. Perhaps soup because if done in the
microwave, the container I use gets too hot.

I do have a large Revereware Dutch Oven but they do not make Revereware like
they used to. Hopefully this will work better. Mostly I use my two
Circulon pans, one being like a deep skillet and the other more of a rounded
shape but still like a skillet, my Rachael Ray pasta pot or my old
Revereware pan that I pop popcorn in. I tend to use that for other things
too. Rice, heating a can of soup, etc. I think I have only pulled out my
smaller pans maybe a few times since I moved here.

Do you find that you use your pans less now, if you have a microwave? I
realize that not all people here do have them. My mom doesn't cook a lot
but when she does, she seems to use a lot of pans. Perhaps more than I
would if I were to make the same meal.


That's a wonderful Dutch oven, good buying call.
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Old 26-07-2013, 02:13 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default Pots and pans.

In article , says...

On 7/25/2013 5:15 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
I just ordered a metal, deep lasagna pan. Thank you Sheldon for the link!
I did not get the one you posted at Amazon but the deeper one at OSP/Brylane
Home. The link for it showed below but when I tried to order it, the link
was no longer valid. I did however track it down and I also ordered this:

http://www.brylanehome.com/decor/4Ot...3&StyleNo=0385

So I should be set for a while at least with pots and pans. But... It
occurred to me just now that I rarely use any of my smaller pans any more.
I guess my microwave has replaced those things! Used to be if I needed to
reheat a leftover, I would use the oven or the top of the stove. Now I
rarely reheat leftovers this way. Perhaps soup because if done in the
microwave, the container I use gets too hot.

I do have a large Revereware Dutch Oven but they do not make Revereware like
they used to. Hopefully this will work better. Mostly I use my two
Circulon pans, one being like a deep skillet and the other more of a rounded
shape but still like a skillet, my Rachael Ray pasta pot or my old
Revereware pan that I pop popcorn in. I tend to use that for other things
too. Rice, heating a can of soup, etc. I think I have only pulled out my
smaller pans maybe a few times since I moved here.

Do you find that you use your pans less now, if you have a microwave? I
realize that not all people here do have them. My mom doesn't cook a lot
but when she does, she seems to use a lot of pans. Perhaps more than I
would if I were to make the same meal.


That's a wonderful Dutch oven, good buying call.


Hi

--


GIT-R-DONE !

In article ,
says...

"you are the ones who are responsible for the way me and others are
assholes"
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Old 26-07-2013, 02:48 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default Pots and pans.

On 7/25/13 7:15 PM, Julie Bove wrote:

I do have a large Revereware Dutch Oven but they do not make Revereware like
they used to....


More like they never did. Revereware has always been cheap, thin steel.
I still have a box of my mom's Revereware pots and pans from the 1950's...

-- Larry



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Old 26-07-2013, 04:07 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default Pots and pans.

On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 16:15:41 -0700, "Julie Bove"
wrote:

I just ordered a metal, deep lasagna pan. Thank you Sheldon for the link!
I did not get the one you posted at Amazon but the deeper one at OSP/Brylane
Home. The link for it showed below but when I tried to order it, the link
was no longer valid. I did however track it down and I also ordered this:

http://www.brylanehome.com/decor/4Ot...3&StyleNo=0385

So I should be set for a while at least with pots and pans. But... It
occurred to me just now that I rarely use any of my smaller pans any more.
I guess my microwave has replaced those things! Used to be if I needed to
reheat a leftover, I would use the oven or the top of the stove. Now I
rarely reheat leftovers this way. Perhaps soup because if done in the
microwave, the container I use gets too hot.

I do have a large Revereware Dutch Oven but they do not make Revereware like
they used to. Hopefully this will work better. Mostly I use my two
Circulon pans, one being like a deep skillet and the other more of a rounded
shape but still like a skillet, my Rachael Ray pasta pot or my old
Revereware pan that I pop popcorn in. I tend to use that for other things
too. Rice, heating a can of soup, etc. I think I have only pulled out my
smaller pans maybe a few times since I moved here.

Do you find that you use your pans less now, if you have a microwave? I
realize that not all people here do have them. My mom doesn't cook a lot
but when she does, she seems to use a lot of pans. Perhaps more than I
would if I were to make the same meal.


I have a microwave, and it is used mainly for the following:

- making oatmeal for breakfast
- re-heating leftovers
- defrosting meat

My set of pots has a steamer, and I use that just about every day.
It's quite big, so I can put in 3-4 different types of vegetables to
steam at the same time.

I use my smallest pans for boiled eggs. I boil eggs at least three
times a week. Also, my husband will warm up soup in the small pan.

Doris

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Old 26-07-2013, 04:38 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default Pots and pans.


"j Burns" wrote in message
...
On 7/25/13 7:15 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
I just ordered a metal, deep lasagna pan. Thank you Sheldon for the
link!
I did not get the one you posted at Amazon but the deeper one at
OSP/Brylane
Home. The link for it showed below but when I tried to order it, the
link
was no longer valid. I did however track it down and I also ordered
this:

http://www.brylanehome.com/decor/4Ot...3&StyleNo=0385

So I should be set for a while at least with pots and pans. But... It
occurred to me just now that I rarely use any of my smaller pans any
more.
I guess my microwave has replaced those things! Used to be if I needed
to
reheat a leftover, I would use the oven or the top of the stove. Now I
rarely reheat leftovers this way. Perhaps soup because if done in the
microwave, the container I use gets too hot.

I do have a large Revereware Dutch Oven but they do not make Revereware
like
they used to. Hopefully this will work better. Mostly I use my two
Circulon pans, one being like a deep skillet and the other more of a
rounded
shape but still like a skillet, my Rachael Ray pasta pot or my old
Revereware pan that I pop popcorn in. I tend to use that for other
things
too. Rice, heating a can of soup, etc. I think I have only pulled out
my
smaller pans maybe a few times since I moved here.

Do you find that you use your pans less now, if you have a microwave? I
realize that not all people here do have them. My mom doesn't cook a lot
but when she does, she seems to use a lot of pans. Perhaps more than I
would if I were to make the same meal.


I've got lots of expensive pans I haven't used for years. A cheap 1-qt
Revere pan and a cheap iron skillet with a silicone cover (fries and
bakes) would handle almost everything. (I've even melted the copper on
the pan, but when I've overheated it, a couple of hammer taps will get it
to sit flat.) If I overheat the skillet, I can season it with linseed
oil. When my microwave failed, I decided I was better off without one.

Now my cheap 6-qt aluminum pressure cooker has become my favorite. Because
it can take advantage of a full-size burner and the aluminum spreads the
heat well, it will heat a given amount of food faster than most pans, with
no stirring. The pressure ensures that everything gets hot and minimizes
the heat and humidity in the kitchen. For some purposes there's no need
to come up to full temperature. It's light and easy to clean.

Unlike a microwave, my pans don't have timers. For that, I have a digital
beeper on the side of the refrigerator.


Hmmm... They were showing a pressure cooker on HSN the other day. It did
look tempting but I'm just not sure I would get enough use out of it to
justify the space it would take up.


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Old 26-07-2013, 04:38 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Posts: 44,155
Default Pots and pans.


"casa bona" wrote in message
...
On 7/25/2013 5:15 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
I just ordered a metal, deep lasagna pan. Thank you Sheldon for the
link!
I did not get the one you posted at Amazon but the deeper one at
OSP/Brylane
Home. The link for it showed below but when I tried to order it, the
link
was no longer valid. I did however track it down and I also ordered
this:

http://www.brylanehome.com/decor/4Ot...3&StyleNo=0385

So I should be set for a while at least with pots and pans. But... It
occurred to me just now that I rarely use any of my smaller pans any
more.
I guess my microwave has replaced those things! Used to be if I needed
to
reheat a leftover, I would use the oven or the top of the stove. Now I
rarely reheat leftovers this way. Perhaps soup because if done in the
microwave, the container I use gets too hot.

I do have a large Revereware Dutch Oven but they do not make Revereware
like
they used to. Hopefully this will work better. Mostly I use my two
Circulon pans, one being like a deep skillet and the other more of a
rounded
shape but still like a skillet, my Rachael Ray pasta pot or my old
Revereware pan that I pop popcorn in. I tend to use that for other
things
too. Rice, heating a can of soup, etc. I think I have only pulled out
my
smaller pans maybe a few times since I moved here.

Do you find that you use your pans less now, if you have a microwave? I
realize that not all people here do have them. My mom doesn't cook a lot
but when she does, she seems to use a lot of pans. Perhaps more than I
would if I were to make the same meal.


That's a wonderful Dutch oven, good buying call.


Thanks!


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Old 26-07-2013, 04:50 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default Pots and pans.

On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 21:48:22 -0400, pltrgyst wrote:

On 7/25/13 7:15 PM, Julie Bove wrote:

I do have a large Revereware Dutch Oven but they do not make Revereware like
they used to....


More like they never did. Revereware has always been cheap, thin steel.
I still have a box of my mom's Revereware pots and pans from the 1950's...

I hated my mother's Revereware too and am always mystified when it's
discussed as if it's something wonderful. Her Revereware is 100% of
the reason why I came to so late the modern ss party.


--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.
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Old 26-07-2013, 06:02 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Posts: 5,744
Default Pots and pans.

Two words

Le Creuset

Can't go wrong.


"Julie Bove" wrote in message
...
I just ordered a metal, deep lasagna pan. Thank you Sheldon for the link!
I did not get the one you posted at Amazon but the deeper one at
OSP/Brylane Home. The link for it showed below but when I tried to order
it, the link was no longer valid. I did however track it down and I also
ordered this:

http://www.brylanehome.com/decor/4Ot...3&StyleNo=0385

So I should be set for a while at least with pots and pans. But... It
occurred to me just now that I rarely use any of my smaller pans any more.
I guess my microwave has replaced those things! Used to be if I needed to
reheat a leftover, I would use the oven or the top of the stove. Now I
rarely reheat leftovers this way. Perhaps soup because if done in the
microwave, the container I use gets too hot.

I do have a large Revereware Dutch Oven but they do not make Revereware
like they used to. Hopefully this will work better. Mostly I use my two
Circulon pans, one being like a deep skillet and the other more of a
rounded shape but still like a skillet, my Rachael Ray pasta pot or my old
Revereware pan that I pop popcorn in. I tend to use that for other things
too. Rice, heating a can of soup, etc. I think I have only pulled out my
smaller pans maybe a few times since I moved here.

Do you find that you use your pans less now, if you have a microwave? I
realize that not all people here do have them. My mom doesn't cook a lot
but when she does, she seems to use a lot of pans. Perhaps more than I
would if I were to make the same meal.





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Old 26-07-2013, 06:10 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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"Paul M. Cook" wrote in message
...
Two words

Le Creuset

Can't go wrong.


Too expensive.


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Old 26-07-2013, 06:36 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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"Julie Bove" wrote in message
...

"Paul M. Cook" wrote in message
...
Two words

Le Creuset

Can't go wrong.


Too expensive.



Not hardly. And they last forever. Probably the last really good cookware
you can buy. You can get them a lot cheaper online.



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Old 26-07-2013, 09:31 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default Pots and pans.


"Paul M. Cook" wrote in message
...

"Julie Bove" wrote in message
...

"Paul M. Cook" wrote in message
...
Two words

Le Creuset

Can't go wrong.


Too expensive.



Not hardly. And they last forever. Probably the last really good
cookware you can buy. You can get them a lot cheaper online.


I did look but saw nothing of the size I need in my price range. Would have
to pay over $100 for that and don't see any deals. Plus to get that size,
it would likely be super heavy. I used to have two pieces. One was a tiny
skillet. Never really used that. The other was a casserole for one and I
think I did get rid of that. Neither was a color I would have chosen.
Orange. They were a present from an ex. I did love the casserole when I
was single and took it to work a lot. People always wanted to see what I
put in it. One thing was a doctored frozen burrito. Bean and cheese.
Those were hard to find. I won't eat TVP and most frozen burritos contain
there. I would smother it (sf will just love this) in some kind of tomato
sauce. Sometimes I would buy enchilada sauce, sometimes make it, or if in a
hurry then just canned tomato sauce, canned tomatoes or even a whole mess of
raw tomatoes, perhaps with just a dab of canned tomato sauce. Then strips
of green pepper and white onion and a lot of cheese. Oh my was that good!
And because I added so much stuff to it, it kinda looked like I made it
myself.

Over time, the white inside of the casserole had gray marks on it, probably
from a fork. Just like my ancient Corningware blue flower casserole now
does. I'm sure it was still usable but I have far less use for a single
casserole these days. If could find and afford to get 4-6 of those, I
probably would. I just don't tend to shop at any places that sell the stuff
and never think to look for it online. Would be nice if I could find it
somewhere in like...a deeply discounted discontinued color but I never seem
to.

In the meantime I bought some in a similar shape (but cheap imports) at
Christmas Tree shop but they turned out not to be large enough. Then I
bought some little green ones (I think they are Le Creuset but maybe just a
really good imitation) that are vintage from Ebay. I am a lousy judge of
size and can not tell most of the time by looking at the measurements how
big something will actually be. Which could be why I just bought something
akin to a suitcase for my new purse. It is Laurel Burch and it is Fabric so
it won't be heavy. But still, when I saw the measurements, I assumed it was
about the same size as the extra large bag that I have. Oops! And they did
have a warning that the bags could be larger than we thought they were.
Anyway... These baking dishes turned out to be super flat. Not really sure
what they would be good for except perhaps for baked apples and really when
I do those, I usually do them in a larger dish. I suppose they would be
good for apple dumplings but I haven't made those in years.


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Old 26-07-2013, 09:59 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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"The Other Guy" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 22:36:45 -0700, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:

Not hardly. And they last forever. Probably the last really good
cookware
you can buy. You can get them a lot cheaper online.


Nearly $300 for a 5 quart dutch oven on Amazon??

IF I was 20 years old, maybe.
I'd HAVE to live 50 more years to make THAT worth buying!!

There are nearly affordable alternatives with great ratings
there as well, same size for $50, with over 1200 4 and 5 star
ratings, vs about 200 3 or lower stars.


The funny thing is, when I was 20 years old, I couldn't afford to buy much
of anything. I would imagine many of us were in the same boat. I didn't
even have Reverware then and much of what I had in my kitchen was purchased
at K Mart or Woolworths during the dollar day sales. I had some hideous
soup mugs in bright green, yellow and orange that got a lot of use for
things other than soup! Because I didn't have much more to use. I did
however splurge on things like Airbake cookie sheets, some really good
Springform pans and all kinds of chocolate/candy making and cake decorating
supplies. That was what I was known for in those days. My baking and candy
making. And IMO, you just can't bake good cookies on a $1.00 cookie sheet.
I do have cheap cookie sheets now. I consider them almost disposable. I
mainly use them under things that might drip. Or I cover them with release
foil to bake fries or other things. But I would never bake cookies on them.

I also find that at age 54, even though I can afford to buy some things for
the kitchen, I can't feasibly use them. Such as a lot of cast iron things
because they are just too darned heavy. I had to take back that giant cast
iron casserole that I was gifted. Partly because I had asked for a pasta
pot and had no need for a giant casserole and the gift giver had no clue
that they bought the right thing because they do not cook. Oh... You can't
boil pasta in a casserole? But partly because I couldn't lift the thing
even when empty! When we returned it to the store, it took Angela and I
both to get it out of the van, into the cart and then up onto the service
desk. I can't imagine trying to get something like that in and out of the
oven because it would be even more heavy with food in it! And unwieldy when
hot!

The first time I bought a Circulon pan, I kicked myself all the way until it
came and I first used it. And then I was hooked! But I just couldn't
believe that I had spent so much for one pan. I think it was $54. I grew
up in a house where aside from the Revereware (which I know many here don't
like), we only had cheap stuff in the kitchen. Melamine dishes until I was
a teen or close to being one. My parents lived in fear that we would break
the dishes. Plastic cookie jar. Dime store cookie sheets. Those hideous
non-stick skillets that used to go on sale for maybe $2-3. A rolling pin
that was missing a handle. Never did figure out why it was missing but I
loved to show it to visitors and tell them that my mom hit my dad over the
head with it and knocked in clear off.

No ladle. My mom would use one of the melamine coffee cups to dip up soup
and stew. Then several times over the years she has bought me a ladle for
Christmas or birthday or some such thing. She seems to have had pretty bad
memory loss for quite some time now. Never seems to remember that not only
do I already have plenty of ladles, but she has already bought me some.
Each time she gives one to me, she tells me, "That's one thing I always
wanted. A ladle!" I never did figure that one out. We went to the dime
store all the time and surely they must have sold ladles there! My first
one came with a set of tools that I got a K Mart. 50 cents for the whole
set. In those days we really could get good bargains there. I think the
set originally sold for $3 but for some reason it wound up on the clearance
aisle and I got it on a blue light special. There was a rack for hanging on
the wall, a spoon, ladle, spaghetti server and a pancake turner. Over the
years the rack broke, and the other pieces went the way of the wind, but I
still have that ladle. Then I got flatware as a wedding gift and it came
with a ladle. I have small ladles from the dollar store for sauces and
dressings and the like. And then I have the odd ceramic ladle that came
with the ceramic soup tureen that I was gifted. I am just waiting for the
day that I can use that! I can't imagine when that day might be. Seeing as
how I am the only soup lover in this house and could not be bothered to put
the soup in a tureen to serve myself out of. But... Who in the world
thought that a ceramic ladle would be a good idea? I can just imagine it
getting broken into the soup.

Anyway... I could not believe how much better the quality of my food was in
that Circulon pan and I've since ordered two more. I also bought some Khun
Rikhon boil over stopper lids that were a tad pricey and today I saw that
Collections Etc. now has their version for $9.99. So these days I can
afford to spend more for things in the kitchen. But I do have my limits. I
might possibly spend $300 (might but probably not) for a whole set of pots
and pans. But... I have also discovered over the years that things come in
those sets that I will never or rarely ever use.

So while I can buy some pricier things now than when I could when younger, I
am also more inclined to want to pare down what I have in my kitchen. My
mom just had a garage sale. I was totally shocked at how much kitchen stuff
she had! And finally she had a ladle! Someone gifted her with a set of
tools that hung on the wall. But she had several can openers, many sets of
tongs, several still in the packages, tons of casseroles and mixing bowls,
several sets of dishes. Dozens of vases! I just don't want the day to come
when I am too old and feeble to want to go through all that stuff to get rid
of it. I am paring it down now. I kept one large vase, one medium vase and
one little bud vase. If I ever need anything more than that, I can use
canning jars. Heh! And unless it is a really expensive or hard to find
item, I am getting rid of it now, unless it is something I currently use. I
did keep my Springform pan and my Bundt pan only because when I needed them,
I had a heck of a time finding them. Found Springform pans in one store all
missing the bottoms! I did come close to getting rid of those but after
thinking about it for a minute, decided that perhaps I should keep them for
a while longer.


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Old 26-07-2013, 11:06 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default Pots and pans.

On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 20:50:34 -0700, sf wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 21:48:22 -0400, pltrgyst wrote:

On 7/25/13 7:15 PM, Julie Bove wrote:

I do have a large Revereware Dutch Oven but they do not make Revereware like
they used to....


More like they never did. Revereware has always been cheap, thin steel.
I still have a box of my mom's Revereware pots and pans from the 1950's...

I hated my mother's Revereware too and am always mystified when it's
discussed as if it's something wonderful. Her Revereware is 100% of
the reason why I came to so late the modern ss party.



Going back 40 to 50 years, Reverware and Farberware were two of the
biggest selling brands of cookware. We bought Farberware when we got
married in 1966. The pans were pretty crappy, thin, hard to use
properly. They are long gone. The pots, however, are still in good
condition and are used on a regular basis. You don't need fancy
twelve ply exotic metals to heat up a can of soup or boil potatoes.

While I'd never touch the pans again, the pots are good quality and
have held up well for many years now.


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