On Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:01:36 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

> On Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:49:09 -0700, sf > wrote:
>
>
>
> >> >
> >> > I think yours is like mine - central heating and hot water - a combi
> >> > boiler?
> >>
> >> Yes it is. Is that not usual in US?
> >>
> >I've heard of a central furnace combined with an air-conditioner, but
> >never one that serves as a water heater too.
>
> Right.
> Furnaces heat air, boilers heat water. The terms are often used
> incorrectly.

YES! I know old public buildings and some super old apartment
buildings (and those converted to condos) still operate with a boiler
system - but come on... single family HOUSES? The only "modern"
heating water source I know about is fed by the water heater, not a
boiler (mid-century modern Eichler houses and modern bathrooms with a
floor heating system in the floor). Define the parameters if it's not
a single family house, which is what I think most of the people here
were talking about in generalized terms. I don't know enough about a
whole building boiler systems to know if hot water from a faucet comes
from the same place that provides heat to the buildings or not. What
I do know is that boiler systems are not commonly used in single
family housing here... like Aga stoves, they are out of the ordinary.
>
> I've never seen a furnace with domestic hot water, but boilers that
> both heat the house and heat the domestic water are very common.

Thanks! Maybe that's the case in old buildings public building or old
multi-story buildings with multiple apartments (or condo converts).
My house was built in the '20s and it has never had a boiler system.
It started off with a coal furnace. My grandparents centennial
farmhouse in rural Michigan (built in the early 1800s) didn't have a
boiler system either - it was another coal furnace and they heated
water on top of their wood burning stove.

> Probably 90% of oil boiler are made that way, at leas until a dozen
> years ago when better systems were introduced.

No idea what that would be.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

sf > wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:01:36 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:49:09 -0700, sf > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think yours is like mine - central heating and hot water - a combi
>>>>> boiler?
>>>>
>>>> Yes it is. Is that not usual in US?
>>>>
>>> I've heard of a central furnace combined with an air-conditioner, but
>>> never one that serves as a water heater too.
>>
>> Right.
>> Furnaces heat air, boilers heat water. The terms are often used
>> incorrectly.
>
> YES! I know old public buildings and some super old apartment
> buildings (and those converted to condos) still operate with a boiler
> system - but come on... single family HOUSES? The only "modern"
> heating water source I know about is fed by the water heater, not a
> boiler (mid-century modern Eichler houses and modern bathrooms with a
> floor heating system in the floor). Define the parameters if it's not
> a single family house, which is what I think most of the people here
> were talking about in generalized terms. I don't know enough about a
> whole building boiler systems to know if hot water from a faucet comes
> from the same place that provides heat to the buildings or not. What
> I do know is that boiler systems are not commonly used in single
> family housing here... like Aga stoves, they are out of the ordinary.
>>
>> I've never seen a furnace with domestic hot water, but boilers that
>> both heat the house and heat the domestic water are very common.
>
> Thanks! Maybe that's the case in old buildings public building or old
> multi-story buildings with multiple apartments (or condo converts).
> My house was built in the '20s and it has never had a boiler system.
> It started off with a coal furnace. My grandparents centennial
> farmhouse in rural Michigan (built in the early 1800s) didn't have a
> boiler system either - it was another coal furnace and they heated
> water on top of their wood burning stove.
>
>> Probably 90% of oil boiler are made that way, at leas until a dozen
>> years ago when better systems were introduced.
>
> No idea what that would be.


I rented out a house in mass. had steam. You only need one pipe to the
radiator. You don't need pumps. Requires a stronger tank. I'm guessing it's
old style. That was 1969. Today that same house probably would cost
hundreds of dollars per month, at today's oil price.

I'm well familiar with coal heat. Coal stoves too. They even used coal in
the fireplaces, often in each room.

Greg

On Thu, 14 Mar 2013 21:24:31 -0700, sf > wrote:



>> Right.
>> Furnaces heat air, boilers heat water. The terms are often used
>> incorrectly.
>
>YES! I know old public buildings and some super old apartment
>buildings (and those converted to condos) still operate with a boiler
>system - but come on... single family HOUSES? The only "modern"
>heating water source I know about is fed by the water heater, not a
>boiler (mid-century modern Eichler houses and modern bathrooms with a
>floor heating system in the floor).

As I said, if it heats water, the term used for the device is a
boiler. They range from smallish units for the house to large
industrial sized 100 HP units in industrial or commercial settings. If
you go to a 3000 room hotel in Las Vegas, chances are the domestic hot
water for you shower is heated by a big Cleaver Brooks boiler.


> Define the parameters if it's not
>a single family house, which is what I think most of the people here
>were talking about in generalized terms. I don't know enough about a
>whole building boiler systems to know if hot water from a faucet comes
>from the same place that provides heat to the buildings or not. What
>I do know is that boiler systems are not commonly used in single
>family housing here... like Aga stoves, they are out of the ordinary.

If they are heating water, it is a boiler. Sorry, but that is the
proper term. Single family to big apartment complex, boilers heat the
water. In smaller units like the house, they do both the heating and
the domestic water.
http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/weil-mclain/pc-boilers/

You will see units that do both.
http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/weil-m...ue-gas-boiler/
•Gas fired water boiler with cast aluminum heat exchanger
•Venturi mixing body mixes air and gas providing higher efficiency
•Designed to operate in low temperature condensing applications
•Outdoor reset and domestic hot water priority standard

I don't know what is common in your town, but they are very common in
the cooler climates. Millions of residential boilers exist. Probably
80% of the homes in New England have boilers. A few still have steam.

On Fri, 15 Mar 2013 06:11:23 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

> On Thu, 14 Mar 2013 21:24:31 -0700, sf > wrote:
>
>
>
> >> Right.
> >> Furnaces heat air, boilers heat water. The terms are often used
> >> incorrectly.
> >
> >YES! I know old public buildings and some super old apartment
> >buildings (and those converted to condos) still operate with a boiler
> >system - but come on... single family HOUSES? The only "modern"
> >heating water source I know about is fed by the water heater, not a
> >boiler (mid-century modern Eichler houses and modern bathrooms with a
> >floor heating system in the floor).
>
> As I said, if it heats water, the term used for the device is a
> boiler. They range from smallish units for the house to large
> industrial sized 100 HP units in industrial or commercial settings. If
> you go to a 3000 room hotel in Las Vegas, chances are the domestic hot
> water for you shower is heated by a big Cleaver Brooks boiler.
>
>
> > Define the parameters if it's not
> >a single family house, which is what I think most of the people here
> >were talking about in generalized terms. I don't know enough about a
> >whole building boiler systems to know if hot water from a faucet comes
> >from the same place that provides heat to the buildings or not. What
> >I do know is that boiler systems are not commonly used in single
> >family housing here... like Aga stoves, they are out of the ordinary.
>
> If they are heating water, it is a boiler. Sorry, but that is the
> proper term. Single family to big apartment complex, boilers heat the
> water. In smaller units like the house, they do both the heating and
> the domestic water.
> http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/weil-mclain/pc-boilers/

Like I said in another thread.... turn over enough rocks and you can
prove any point.
>
> You will see units that do both.
> http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/weil-m...ue-gas-boiler/
> •Gas fired water boiler with cast aluminum heat exchanger
> •Venturi mixing body mixes air and gas providing higher efficiency
> •Designed to operate in low temperature condensing applications
> •Outdoor reset and domestic hot water priority standard
>
> I don't know what is common in your town, but they are very common in
> the cooler climates. Millions of residential boilers exist. Probably
> 80% of the homes in New England have boilers. A few still have steam.
>
>
We had a hot water heater, not a boiler, when I lived in Michigan.
Water heaters have boilers in them, but no one and I mean NO ONE calls
the entire unit a boiler. Like I said before, commercial and public
buildings have large units called boilers but it is not a term used in
single family residential.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

"sf" > wrote in message
...


>>
> We had a hot water heater, not a boiler, when I lived in Michigan.
> Water heaters have boilers in them, but no one and I mean NO ONE calls
> the entire unit a boiler. Like I said before, commercial and public
> buildings have large units called boilers but it is not a term used in
> single family residential.
>


Domestic water heaters are different that the home heating units.

In my last house, we had a water heater that was stand alone, gas fired. We
also had a furnace that made hot air heat to keep the house warm. As you
mentioned, many furnaces can have refrigeration coils installed to cool the
air also. . It was very common in that t ype of house in the area. In
Philly, there could be hundreds of houses build at the same time with the
same heating systems. Some have furnaces, some have boilers, depending on
the design and the t ime period built.

Units that make both hot water for domestic use and are combined with the
heating water are boilers. That, your opinion aside is a fact. Just ask
anyone that makes boilers, designs boilers, installs boilers, the IBR, the
Hydronics Heating Association, and every boiler technician. Yes, some
people do incorrectly call them a furnace, but if you call a tomato an
apple, that does not mean it is correct.

On Fri, 15 Mar 2013 09:49:49 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski" >
wrote:

> Units that make both hot water for domestic use and are combined with the
> heating water are boilers.

That's my point. Stand alone water heaters are called water heaters,
they may have a boiler inside them but they are not called boilers by
the public. Not interested in what plumbers and engineers call them.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

sf > wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Mar 2013 06:11:23 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 14 Mar 2013 21:24:31 -0700, sf > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Right.
>>>> Furnaces heat air, boilers heat water. The terms are often used
>>>> incorrectly.
>>>
>>> YES! I know old public buildings and some super old apartment
>>> buildings (and those converted to condos) still operate with a boiler
>>> system - but come on... single family HOUSES? The only "modern"
>>> heating water source I know about is fed by the water heater, not a
>>> boiler (mid-century modern Eichler houses and modern bathrooms with a
>>> floor heating system in the floor).
>>
>> As I said, if it heats water, the term used for the device is a
>> boiler. They range from smallish units for the house to large
>> industrial sized 100 HP units in industrial or commercial settings. If
>> you go to a 3000 room hotel in Las Vegas, chances are the domestic hot
>> water for you shower is heated by a big Cleaver Brooks boiler.
>>
>>
>>> Define the parameters if it's not
>>> a single family house, which is what I think most of the people here
>>> were talking about in generalized terms. I don't know enough about a
>>> whole building boiler systems to know if hot water from a faucet comes
>>> from the same place that provides heat to the buildings or not. What
>>> I do know is that boiler systems are not commonly used in single
>>> family housing here... like Aga stoves, they are out of the ordinary.
>>
>> If they are heating water, it is a boiler. Sorry, but that is the
>> proper term. Single family to big apartment complex, boilers heat the
>> water. In smaller units like the house, they do both the heating and
>> the domestic water.
>> http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/weil-mclain/pc-boilers/
>
> Like I said in another thread.... turn over enough rocks and you can
> prove any point.
>>
>> You will see units that do both.
>> http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/weil-m...ue-gas-boiler/
>> •Gas fired water boiler with cast aluminum heat exchanger
>> •Venturi mixing body mixes air and gas providing higher efficiency
>> •Designed to operate in low temperature condensing applications
>> •Outdoor reset and domestic hot water priority standard
>>
>> I don't know what is common in your town, but they are very common in
>> the cooler climates. Millions of residential boilers exist. Probably
>> 80% of the homes in New England have boilers. A few still have steam.
>>
>>
> We had a hot water heater, not a boiler, when I lived in Michigan.
> Water heaters have boilers in them, but no one and I mean NO ONE calls
> the entire unit a boiler. Like I said before, commercial and public
> buildings have large units called boilers but it is not a term used in
> single family residential.

Hot water heat systems use the term boiler, because it's a simple one word
description. What else would you call it using one word.

I know of huge sections of the city, with one main steam plant feeding many
high rise buildings, blocks wide.

I also think hot water, even worse steam, can be less efficient, unless
flew to air recovery is used.

Greg

On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 02:06:10 +0000 (UTC), gregz >
wrote:

> Hot water heat systems use the term boiler, because it's a simple one word
> description. What else would you call it using one word.

By that, you're talking about something that supplies both heat and
hot water. This thread started off talking a single unit that
supplies only hot water, no mention of radiant heat. What are you
going to do next? Find something on the moon just to prove you're
right and I'm oh so wrong?
>
> I know of huge sections of the city, with one main steam plant feeding many
> high rise buildings, blocks wide.
>
> I also think hot water, even worse steam, can be less efficient, unless
> flew to air recovery is used.
>
Did you mean flue to air?


--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 02:06:10 +0000 (UTC), gregz >
wrote:

>sf > wrote:
>> On Fri, 15 Mar 2013 06:11:23 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 14 Mar 2013 21:24:31 -0700, sf > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Right.
>>>>> Furnaces heat air, boilers heat water. The terms are often used
>>>>> incorrectly.
>>>>
>>>> YES! I know old public buildings and some super old apartment
>>>> buildings (and those converted to condos) still operate with a boiler
>>>> system - but come on... single family HOUSES? The only "modern"
>>>> heating water source I know about is fed by the water heater, not a
>>>> boiler (mid-century modern Eichler houses and modern bathrooms with a
>>>> floor heating system in the floor).
>>>
>>> As I said, if it heats water, the term used for the device is a
>>> boiler. They range from smallish units for the house to large
>>> industrial sized 100 HP units in industrial or commercial settings. If
>>> you go to a 3000 room hotel in Las Vegas, chances are the domestic hot
>>> water for you shower is heated by a big Cleaver Brooks boiler.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Define the parameters if it's not
>>>> a single family house, which is what I think most of the people here
>>>> were talking about in generalized terms. I don't know enough about a
>>>> whole building boiler systems to know if hot water from a faucet comes
>>>> from the same place that provides heat to the buildings or not. What
>>>> I do know is that boiler systems are not commonly used in single
>>>> family housing here... like Aga stoves, they are out of the ordinary.
>>>
>>> If they are heating water, it is a boiler. Sorry, but that is the
>>> proper term. Single family to big apartment complex, boilers heat the
>>> water. In smaller units like the house, they do both the heating and
>>> the domestic water.
>>> http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/weil-mclain/pc-boilers/
>>
>> Like I said in another thread.... turn over enough rocks and you can
>> prove any point.
>>>
>>> You will see units that do both.
>>> http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/weil-m...ue-gas-boiler/
>>> ?Gas fired water boiler with cast aluminum heat exchanger
>>> ?Venturi mixing body mixes air and gas providing higher efficiency
>>> ?Designed to operate in low temperature condensing applications
>>> ?Outdoor reset and domestic hot water priority standard
>>>
>>> I don't know what is common in your town, but they are very common in
>>> the cooler climates. Millions of residential boilers exist. Probably
>>> 80% of the homes in New England have boilers. A few still have steam.
>>>
>>>
>> We had a hot water heater, not a boiler, when I lived in Michigan.
>> Water heaters have boilers in them, but no one and I mean NO ONE calls
>> the entire unit a boiler. Like I said before, commercial and public
>> buildings have large units called boilers but it is not a term used in
>> single family residential.
>
>Hot water heat systems use the term boiler, because it's a simple one word
>description. What else would you call it using one word.

Boiler is the correct nomenclature used in the home heating trade...
same as hot water heater is used rather than the full terminoligy;
domestic hot water heater... most building trade workers couldn't
spell domestic (they can't use three syllable words). There are
several catagories of boilers; cast iron, sheet metal, wet base,
etc... "boiler" is the correct building trades jargon... same as most
folks use that four letter word in lieu of sexual intercourse... I'll
bet there's not a person here who has ever said to their mate let's
have sexual intercourse/coitus... sf says "C'mon, penetrate me!",
hubby replies "Which orifice?" Probably the one to shut her up! LOL