"Cheri" > wrote in message
...
> "John J" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> I like meat, but I don't eat it.
>
> I like meat, and I do eat it, lots of it. So, now we have that worked out
> I like Tofu too.
>
> Cheri

"Cheri" > wrote in message
...
> "John J" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> I like meat, but I don't eat it.
>
> I like meat, and I do eat it, lots of it. So, now we have that worked out
> I like Tofu too.
>
> Cheri

I do not like tofu. Was disappointed to see that Christina was making that
tonight. I love to watch her but have no interest in watching her make
tofu.

"Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Julie Bove" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Julie Bove" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> "Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Julie Bove" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Julie Bove" > wrote in message
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "dsi1" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>> On 2/28/2013 6:17 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I tried to follow this as closely as I could the first time
>>>>>>>>>> because I wasn't
>>>>>>>>>> sure how it would come out. And I didn't use honey because I
>>>>>>>>>> really dislike
>>>>>>>>>> the stuff. Not sure that corn syrup would work because I think
>>>>>>>>>> it is too
>>>>>>>>>> runny, plus I had none. So far so good on the GERD front. But
>>>>>>>>>> daughter
>>>>>>>>>> didn't like it with the walnuts. Will try to make it again
>>>>>>>>>> without those
>>>>>>>>>> but not sure it will hold up as well.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You might want to try Korean cactus honey which is available in
>>>>>>>>> Korean markets. I don't know anything about it except that it's
>>>>>>>>> popular cause they have a bunch of that stuff on the shelves. It
>>>>>>>>> comes in liquid and powder form.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well I don't think I'll be making this again unless daughter likes
>>>>>>>> it without the nuts. I tried it after it set up and I didn't care
>>>>>>>> for it so much. I don't know why really. But I also am not big
>>>>>>>> into sweets. I just thought I'd make it because I have a ton of
>>>>>>>> sunseed butter. This was one of those things that daughter was
>>>>>>>> eating like mad until I bought a case of it. And now consumption
>>>>>>>> has dropped.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your daughter has you wrapped around her little finger. You are her
>>>>>>> slave bitch. She is a nascent "withholder." She'll ruin every
>>>>>>> relationship she ever enters into. You could buy her a case of
>>>>>>> premium Dutch chocolate an if daughter senses you did it because you
>>>>>>> love her, she will decide she hates chocolate altogether and will
>>>>>>> not touch another molecule of it to save her life.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Blather, wince, repeat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Uh... No. I bought the case because it was much cheaper to do it
>>>>>> that way. I don't buy things because I "love" her. If that's why you
>>>>>> buy things you are really messed up!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You bought it thinking she'd appreciate her mom caring for her.
>>>>
>>>> Uh. No. I bought it to save money.
>>>
>>>
>>> And now you wasted it instead. See? We've heard the pattern many times
>>> now.
>>
>> No. I didn't waste anything. I just ate 4 pieces of the fudge and
>> sickened myself. Happy? She has eaten several jars already and there is
>> still plenty of time before it expires.
>
>
> One has to wonder why anyone here would care for the recipe then.

I sickened myself because I ate too much. 2 pieces is a serving. Obviously
nobody here did want the recipe.

On 3/1/2013 10:12 PM, Sqwertz wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 18:00:46 -0500, Gary wrote:
>
>> Dave Smith wrote:
>>
>>> Being animal lovers, they had to get a puppy. It's not nice to keep a
>>> puppy restrained on a leash so they let it run free... in the city. When
>>> it was young it was less than 6 months old it was hit by a car. They
>>> should have had the pup put down but, being animal lovers, they spent a
>>> fortune on it. As a result of the being hit, the dog lost one front lake
>>> and had trouble with the other front lake.
>>
>> It's very sad to see dogs with injured front lakes.
>
> You would think they would just fall over face first and drown.
>
> How do you misspell that word so badly - not once, but twice?
>
Voice-to-text software?
I've noticed quite a few odd spellings which could be the result of that
sort of software.

"John J" > wrote in message
...

> Look at the footage from chicken or turkey factories, for instance.
> Overcrowded, tortured creatures with ammonia burn, exposed inflamed
> skin where they should have feathers, maggots etc etc. Forget about
> animal welfare if that doesn't show up on your radar, but how on earth
> can you eat. Because it's cheap? I could only understand that if you
> would otherwise starve to death.
>
> --
> John


I spent a lot of my childhood on a turkey and chicken ranch. The turkeys
were free range once they left the brooder house, there was no torturing or
any of that like you're talking about at all. The small drop craw turkeys
were used for fryers by us, and they were really good eating, as were the
chickens, maybe because they were treated so well.

Cheri

x-no-arcahive: yes

On 3/2/2013 1:53 AM, John J wrote:

> Look at the footage from chicken or turkey factories, for instance.
> Overcrowded, tortured creatures with ammonia burn, exposed inflamed
> skin where they should have feathers, maggots etc etc.

I don't buy meat from factory farm sources.

Or fish, or dairy when I can avoid it.


Susan

x-no-archive; yes

On 3/2/2013 2:41 AM, Jeßus wrote:

> Having said that... 'free range' is often also a total joke.
> The Egg Corporation in Aus wans to increase density from 2500 (already
> ridiculaously excessive IMO) birds per hectare to 20000!
>
> My birds enjoy approx. a half a hectare EACH...

I look up food sources on cornucopia.org

Susan

Julie Bove wrote:

> > Clearly, the sugar has to be isolated from all fauna, including insects.
> > That's a difficult standard for sugar growers and refiners; hence, only
> > the "Certified Vegan" label guarantees that no bugs have been near the stuff.
>
> Wrong!

No offense to the insectivore contingent.

Julie Bove wrote:

>The end result is very creamy. What it is
> lacking is that graininess that you can
> only get with sugar. Sunseed is
> sunflower seed butter.

I've been making fudge for about 60 years and it is always smooth and
creamy in texture. If cooked fudge turns out grainy, it is because in
the process the sugar wasn't properly dissolved, and therefore it is a
failure, although one that can still be eaten, but just isn't five-star
quality. No candy maker wants her fudge to be grainy.

Judy

On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 18:05:55 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 01/03/2013 5:04 PM, John J wrote:
>> On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 15:56:26 -0500, Dave Smith
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> On 01/03/2013 3:48 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>>>
>>>>> She served to reinforce my refusal to cater to people who adopt fad diets
>>>>> for social reasons.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ever notice the meat substitutes they love like tofurkey, veggie hot dogs,
>>>> fake susage, fake burgers etc? If meat is so unnatural a food why does it
>>>> seem they crave the taste?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I get a kick out of them when they eat veggie dogs, veggie burgers and
>>> similar faux meats. They tell you those things are good.... that they
>>> taste just like meat. Good. If you want something that tastes just like
>>> meat, eat meat.
>>
>> Why? What if you like the taste of meat but don't like to have animals
>> killed for your food?
>>
>
>Why? Like I said.. if you want something that tastes like meat, eat
>meat. They process soy and tofu and stuff like that in an attempt to
>look and taste like some bad version of meat, but it doesn't really
>taste like meat.

Tofu is not meant to taste like meat, it takes on whatever flavors of
the foods it's prepared with, only its texture can be meat like. I
like tofu in oriental dishes, especially soups (hot n'sour).

"Brooklyn1" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 18:05:55 -0500, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
>>On 01/03/2013 5:04 PM, John J wrote:
>>> On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 15:56:26 -0500, Dave Smith
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 01/03/2013 3:48 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> She served to reinforce my refusal to cater to people who adopt fad
>>>>>> diets
>>>>>> for social reasons.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ever notice the meat substitutes they love like tofurkey, veggie hot
>>>>> dogs,
>>>>> fake susage, fake burgers etc? If meat is so unnatural a food why
>>>>> does it
>>>>> seem they crave the taste?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I get a kick out of them when they eat veggie dogs, veggie burgers and
>>>> similar faux meats. They tell you those things are good.... that they
>>>> taste just like meat. Good. If you want something that tastes just like
>>>> meat, eat meat.
>>>
>>> Why? What if you like the taste of meat but don't like to have animals
>>> killed for your food?
>>>
>>
>>Why? Like I said.. if you want something that tastes like meat, eat
>>meat. They process soy and tofu and stuff like that in an attempt to
>>look and taste like some bad version of meat, but it doesn't really
>>taste like meat.
>
> Tofu is not meant to taste like meat, it takes on whatever flavors of
> the foods it's prepared with, only its texture can be meat like. I
> like tofu in oriental dishes, especially soups (hot n'sour).


Back in the Nixon era when the price of beef went through the roof, they
sold some kind of textured protein to add to hamburger to stretch it. I
really liked it, but have never found it since. Don't really know exactly
what it was made of. Maybe someone else remembers? Was it tofu?

Cheri

On 3/2/2013 12:15 PM, Cheri wrote:
> "Brooklyn1" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 18:05:55 -0500, Dave Smith
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> On 01/03/2013 5:04 PM, John J wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 15:56:26 -0500, Dave Smith
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 01/03/2013 3:48 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> She served to reinforce my refusal to cater to people who adopt
>>>>>>> fad diets
>>>>>>> for social reasons.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ever notice the meat substitutes they love like tofurkey, veggie
>>>>>> hot dogs,
>>>>>> fake susage, fake burgers etc? If meat is so unnatural a food why
>>>>>> does it
>>>>>> seem they crave the taste?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I get a kick out of them when they eat veggie dogs, veggie burgers and
>>>>> similar faux meats. They tell you those things are good.... that they
>>>>> taste just like meat. Good. If you want something that tastes just
>>>>> like
>>>>> meat, eat meat.
>>>>
>>>> Why? What if you like the taste of meat but don't like to have animals
>>>> killed for your food?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Why? Like I said.. if you want something that tastes like meat, eat
>>> meat. They process soy and tofu and stuff like that in an attempt to
>>> look and taste like some bad version of meat, but it doesn't really
>>> taste like meat.
>>
>> Tofu is not meant to taste like meat, it takes on whatever flavors of
>> the foods it's prepared with, only its texture can be meat like. I
>> like tofu in oriental dishes, especially soups (hot n'sour).
>
>
> Back in the Nixon era when the price of beef went through the roof, they
> sold some kind of textured protein to add to hamburger to stretch it. I
> really liked it, but have never found it since. Don't really know
> exactly what it was made of. Maybe someone else remembers? Was it tofu?
>

I don't know what the hamburger extender was but Trader Joe's still
sells vegetarian "ground beef". I've tried it to make chili and I don't
recommend it but perhaps it could be used as a extender.

The Japanese have long used freeze dried tofu, which has a meaty
texture. They even made it naturally by hanging straw wrapped bundles of
tofu outside farm houses where it could freeze at night and unfreeze
during the day. I've had it but I don't think it is worth the trouble
and it has no real taste, AFAICT.

There is also Seitan, as sold in "health food" coops, which I gather is
wheat gluten. It also has a meaty texture but little taste of its own.
The anti-gluten group must hate it :-)


--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not" in Reply To.

"James Silverton" > wrote in message
...
> On 3/2/2013 12:15 PM, Cheri wrote:
>> "Brooklyn1" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 18:05:55 -0500, Dave Smith
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 01/03/2013 5:04 PM, John J wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 15:56:26 -0500, Dave Smith
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 01/03/2013 3:48 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> She served to reinforce my refusal to cater to people who adopt
>>>>>>>> fad diets
>>>>>>>> for social reasons.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ever notice the meat substitutes they love like tofurkey, veggie
>>>>>>> hot dogs,
>>>>>>> fake susage, fake burgers etc? If meat is so unnatural a food why
>>>>>>> does it
>>>>>>> seem they crave the taste?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I get a kick out of them when they eat veggie dogs, veggie burgers
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> similar faux meats. They tell you those things are good.... that
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> taste just like meat. Good. If you want something that tastes just
>>>>>> like
>>>>>> meat, eat meat.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why? What if you like the taste of meat but don't like to have animals
>>>>> killed for your food?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why? Like I said.. if you want something that tastes like meat, eat
>>>> meat. They process soy and tofu and stuff like that in an attempt to
>>>> look and taste like some bad version of meat, but it doesn't really
>>>> taste like meat.
>>>
>>> Tofu is not meant to taste like meat, it takes on whatever flavors of
>>> the foods it's prepared with, only its texture can be meat like. I
>>> like tofu in oriental dishes, especially soups (hot n'sour).
>>
>>
>> Back in the Nixon era when the price of beef went through the roof, they
>> sold some kind of textured protein to add to hamburger to stretch it. I
>> really liked it, but have never found it since. Don't really know
>> exactly what it was made of. Maybe someone else remembers? Was it tofu?
>>
>
> I don't know what the hamburger extender was but Trader Joe's still sells
> vegetarian "ground beef". I've tried it to make chili and I don't
> recommend it but perhaps it could be used as a extender.
>
> The Japanese have long used freeze dried tofu, which has a meaty texture.
> They even made it naturally by hanging straw wrapped bundles of tofu
> outside farm houses where it could freeze at night and unfreeze during the
> day. I've had it but I don't think it is worth the trouble and it has no
> real taste, AFAICT.
>
> There is also Seitan, as sold in "health food" coops, which I gather is
> wheat gluten. It also has a meaty texture but little taste of its own. The
> anti-gluten group must hate it :-)

Thanks for the answer, I will check TJ's. I don't know who made it because
it was next to the hamburger, packaged like hamburger in the meat section,
but it was a beige color. Dh liked it a lot in meat loaf.

Cheri

On 3/2/2013 2:38 PM, John J wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Mar 2013 06:52:25 -0800, "Cheri" >
> wrote:
>
>> "John J" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> Look at the footage from chicken or turkey factories, for instance.
>>> Overcrowded, tortured creatures with ammonia burn, exposed inflamed
>>> skin where they should have feathers, maggots etc etc. Forget about
>>> animal welfare if that doesn't show up on your radar, but how on earth
>>> can you eat. Because it's cheap? I could only understand that if you
>>> would otherwise starve to death.
>>>
>>> --
>>> John
>>
>>
>> I spent a lot of my childhood on a turkey and chicken ranch. The turkeys
>> were free range once they left the brooder house, there was no torturing or
>> any of that like you're talking about at all. The small drop craw turkeys
>> were used for fryers by us, and they were really good eating, as were the
>> chickens, maybe because they were treated so well.
>
> That sounds good, but that's not how the standard supermarket bird has
> lived.
>
Is an animal of low intelligence, like the average bird, being really
badly treated when it is fed very sufficiently and dies quickly? Is it
anthropomorphism to think that a chicken requires intellectual stimulation?

--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not" in Reply To.

On 02/03/2013 12:03 PM, Judy Haffner wrote:

> I've been making fudge for about 60 years and it is always smooth and
> creamy in texture. If cooked fudge turns out grainy, it is because in
> the process the sugar wasn't properly dissolved, and therefore it is a
> failure, although one that can still be eaten, but just isn't five-star
> quality. No candy maker wants her fudge to be grainy.
>

My mother used to make fudge when I was young. I guess her fudge was a
little faulty because it was always slightly grainy. I liked it that way
and I never buy fudge because it's too smooth for my taste.

>
> Back in the Nixon era when the price of beef went through the roof, they
> sold some kind of textured protein to add to hamburger to stretch it. I
> really liked it, but have never found it since. Don't really know
> exactly what it was made of. Maybe someone else remembers? Was it tofu?
>
>
That was probably soy meal.

"John J" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 2 Mar 2013 06:52:25 -0800, "Cheri" >
> wrote:
>
>>"John J" > wrote in message
. ..
>>
>>> Look at the footage from chicken or turkey factories, for instance.
>>> Overcrowded, tortured creatures with ammonia burn, exposed inflamed
>>> skin where they should have feathers, maggots etc etc. Forget about
>>> animal welfare if that doesn't show up on your radar, but how on earth
>>> can you eat. Because it's cheap? I could only understand that if you
>>> would otherwise starve to death.
>>>
>>> --
>>> John
>>
>>
>>I spent a lot of my childhood on a turkey and chicken ranch. The turkeys
>>were free range once they left the brooder house, there was no torturing
>>or
>>any of that like you're talking about at all. The small drop craw turkeys
>>were used for fryers by us, and they were really good eating, as were the
>>chickens, maybe because they were treated so well.
>
> That sounds good, but that's not how the standard supermarket bird has
> lived.
>
> --
> John


Well, they were shipped out at maturity to be sent to supermarkets, so
that's how they lived.

Cheri

On 02/03/2013 1:55 PM, Cheri wrote:

>
> I know what you meant. I was LOL because most things I really liked back
> in the old days weren't really very healthy at all. It's funny because
> dh was mentioning it not long ago, and then someone in the group
> mentioned it recently too, and I hadn't thought about it until then. I
> was curious what it was, but when you said it, I remembered that's what
> it was.
>

Back in the early 1970s one of my SiLs was a health food nazi and was
obsesses with nutrition. She would only dink tea and was always touting
Celestial Seasonings. I expressed concern about what was going into
those herbal teas. People would go out and pick all sorts of flowers,
dry them out and make tea out of them without even thinking what
compounds there might be. She thought I was nuts, but just a short time
after we had that discussion there was a case of a woman who had OD'ed
on herbal tea and almost dies. IIRC there was atropine in the tea and,
thinking it was 100% safe and so much better than caffeine, she was
drinking oceans of the stuff.

On 02/03/2013 2:41 AM, Jeßus wrote:

>
> Having said that... 'free range' is often also a total joke.
> The Egg Corporation in Aus wans to increase density from 2500 (already
> ridiculaously excessive IMO) birds per hectare to 20000!
>
> My birds enjoy approx. a half a hectare EACH...
>


Do they enjoy it, or do they tend to flock together. The property next
to me is about 5 hectares mine is about half a hectare. The former
neighbour had about 30 chickens free ranging (during the day). The
stuck to a small area, The seemed to prefer his back yard and mine,
total area less than one hectare. They could have gone out to his front
yard but did not, and they had more than 2 hectares of land behind their
pen to roam in. For some reason, they avoided that area, perhaps they
preferred the shorter grass and the easier access to bugs. Perhaps
someone warned them about the coyotes.

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...

> Back in the early 1970s one of my SiLs was a health food nazi and was
> obsesses with nutrition. She would only dink tea and was always touting
> Celestial Seasonings. I expressed concern about what was going into those
> herbal teas. People would go out and pick all sorts of flowers, dry them
> out and make tea out of them without even thinking what compounds there
> might be. She thought I was nuts, but just a short time after we had that
> discussion there was a case of a woman who had OD'ed on herbal tea and
> almost dies. IIRC there was atropine in the tea and, thinking it was 100%
> safe and so much better than caffeine, she was drinking oceans of the
> stuff.
>


Yes, it does seem as if just about everything has a downside, especially
when people become overzealous with it.

Cheri

"Judy Haffner" > wrote in message
...
>
> Julie Bove wrote:
>
>>The end result is very creamy. What it is
>> lacking is that graininess that you can
>> only get with sugar. Sunseed is
>> sunflower seed butter.
>
> I've been making fudge for about 60 years and it is always smooth and
> creamy in texture. If cooked fudge turns out grainy, it is because in
> the process the sugar wasn't properly dissolved, and therefore it is a
> failure, although one that can still be eaten, but just isn't five-star
> quality. No candy maker wants her fudge to be grainy.

There are many different kinds of fudge. The kind with powdered sugar in it
will have a slightly grainy texture. And some of it for sure is grainy, to
my tooth anyway. My mom always made the kind with the marshmallow cream and
chocolate chips in it but that has a different texture than others.

"Cheri" > wrote in message
...
> Back in the Nixon era when the price of beef went through the roof, they
> sold some kind of textured protein to add to hamburger to stretch it. I
> really liked it, but have never found it since. Don't really know exactly
> what it was made of. Maybe someone else remembers? Was it tofu?

Pretty sure that is the stuff that my dad bought but it was ham flavored.
We did not like it but we also do not like ham so well. So why he bought
that flavor is beyond me. I always assumed it was soybeans. But I don't
really know.

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On 02/03/2013 12:03 PM, Judy Haffner wrote:
>
>> I've been making fudge for about 60 years and it is always smooth and
>> creamy in texture. If cooked fudge turns out grainy, it is because in
>> the process the sugar wasn't properly dissolved, and therefore it is a
>> failure, although one that can still be eaten, but just isn't five-star
>> quality. No candy maker wants her fudge to be grainy.
>>
>
> My mother used to make fudge when I was young. I guess her fudge was a
> little faulty because it was always slightly grainy. I liked it that way
> and I never buy fudge because it's too smooth for my taste.



I think a lot of moms made that old fashioned fudge like your mom, none of
the marshmallow stuff, but it does take time and a lot of stirring, so maybe
that's why people don't make it as much. I liked the grainy texture too.

Cheri

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On 02/03/2013 1:55 PM, Cheri wrote:
>
>>
>> I know what you meant. I was LOL because most things I really liked back
>> in the old days weren't really very healthy at all. It's funny because
>> dh was mentioning it not long ago, and then someone in the group
>> mentioned it recently too, and I hadn't thought about it until then. I
>> was curious what it was, but when you said it, I remembered that's what
>> it was.
>>
>
> Back in the early 1970s one of my SiLs was a health food nazi and was
> obsesses with nutrition. She would only dink tea and was always touting
> Celestial Seasonings. I expressed concern about what was going into those
> herbal teas. People would go out and pick all sorts of flowers, dry them
> out and make tea out of them without even thinking what compounds there
> might be. She thought I was nuts, but just a short time after we had that
> discussion there was a case of a woman who had OD'ed on herbal tea and
> almost dies. IIRC there was atropine in the tea and, thinking it was 100%
> safe and so much better than caffeine, she was drinking oceans of the
> stuff.

My parents friends once brought by some chamomile tea that they'd picked as
a Christmas present along with some cookies that they'd baked. The returned
about an hour after they'd left, quite embarrassed and said that it actually
wasn't chamomile and they'd better take it back. Not sure what it was but
it sure looked like a weed I'd seen growing in the yard.

On 3/2/2013 3:45 PM, Susan wrote:

> First, factory farmed birds are bred to be unnaturally chest heavy, in
> chickens, they're so fat and muscle loaded and kept in sunless, crammed
> full of chicken sheds, with dead and dying birds on the ground. No
> access to any normal behavior, like walking around pecking the ground,
> the become aggressive and tear at each other. Those that can move.
> Often they can't walk due to the burden of all that flesh and fat.
>
> They get sick a lot, have little to no sun, light, fresh air or room to
> take a step. When it's time for slaughter, they're caught and packed
> into crates until no more can be crammed in.
>
> It's an unhealthy and miserable life that leads to an unwholesome and
> unhealthy food product, too.
>
About 45-50 years ago, there was research being done to breed
featherless chickens - the theory being that the energy that would
otherwise have gone into producing feathers would go toward fattening
them up instead, and therefore save on the cost of feed, yielding bigger
profits.
The birds sickened easily, required warmer quarters, and the roosters
were useless for breeding purposes without wings to balance on.
They were weird-looking birds.

In article >,
says...
>
> On 3/2/2013 2:38 PM, John J wrote:
> > On Sat, 2 Mar 2013 06:52:25 -0800, "Cheri" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> "John J" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>
> >>> Look at the footage from chicken or turkey factories, for instance.
> >>> Overcrowded, tortured creatures with ammonia burn, exposed inflamed
> >>> skin where they should have feathers, maggots etc etc. Forget about
> >>> animal welfare if that doesn't show up on your radar, but how on earth
> >>> can you eat. Because it's cheap? I could only understand that if you
> >>> would otherwise starve to death.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> John
> >>
> >>
> >> I spent a lot of my childhood on a turkey and chicken ranch. The turkeys
> >> were free range once they left the brooder house, there was no torturing or
> >> any of that like you're talking about at all. The small drop craw turkeys
> >> were used for fryers by us, and they were really good eating, as were the
> >> chickens, maybe because they were treated so well.
> >
> > That sounds good, but that's not how the standard supermarket bird has
> > lived.
> >
> Is an animal of low intelligence, like the average bird, being really
> badly treated when it is fed very sufficiently and dies quickly? Is it
> anthropomorphism to think that a chicken requires intellectual stimulation?

Like most animals kept in very close confinement, chickens become
so stressed and aggressive they can peck each other completely bald and
bleeding raw. Because they can't move, they lose the use of their legs.
It's a monstrous way for any creature to be kept.

Janet UK

Julie Bove wrote:

>There are many different kinds of fudge.
> The kind with powdered sugar in it will
> have a slightly grainy texture. And some
> of it for sure is grainy, to my tooth
> anyway. My mom always made the kind
> with the marshmallow cream and
> chocolate chips in it but that has a
> different texture than others.

I don't consider the kind of candy made with powdered sugar, as
authentic fudge. The fudge I'm talking about is where you use granulated
sugar, milk, butter, vanilla and unsweetened chocolate squares, and use
a candy thermometer to make sure it's at the right temperature. That is
the BEST fudge, AFAIC. I don't care for the candy made with marshmallow
creme and chocolate chips, as to me, it's sickening sweet. I do have a
good microwave no-fail fudge recipe that calls for chocolate chips and
mini marshmallows, but isn't loaded with sugar, and it is the texture of
velvet.

Even 1 tiny grain of undissolved sugar can turn a batch of candy
"grainy" in texture, which is not what a candy maker wishes for. I stir
the ingredients until it comes to a good boil and then I use a warm damp
paper towel to wipe the sides of the sauce pan down thoroughly before
inserting the candy thermometer to finish cooking. I also have lightly
buttered the sides of pot I'm cooking the candy in, as that prevents
sugar clinging to the sides. I don't have to go through those procedures
when making it in the microwave.

Judy

Cheri wrote:

>I think a lot of moms made that old
> fashioned fudge like your mom, none of
> the marshmallow stuff, but it does take
> time and a lot of stirring, so maybe
> that's why people don't make it as
> much. I liked the grainy texture too.

That's the kind my mom always made too, but it was smooth as silk and
never grainy. The only problem she ever had occasionally, was not
cooking it to the correct stage, and it turned out to be "pour fudge"!
:-) Dad and I loved it...she'd pour it out onto a dinner plate and we
could hardly wait for it to cool enough so we could dig into it with
spoons! I often use her recipe and have good luck with it.

Personally I don't care for a grainy texture, as to me it's a failure,
but maybe it takes you on a trip down memory lane? lol

Judy

"John J" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 2 Mar 2013 11:57:33 -0800, "Cheri" >
> wrote:
>
>>"John J" > wrote in message
. ..
>>> On Sat, 2 Mar 2013 06:52:25 -0800, "Cheri" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"John J" > wrote in message
m...
>>>>
>>>>> Look at the footage from chicken or turkey factories, for instance.
>>>>> Overcrowded, tortured creatures with ammonia burn, exposed inflamed
>>>>> skin where they should have feathers, maggots etc etc. Forget about
>>>>> animal welfare if that doesn't show up on your radar, but how on earth
>>>>> can you eat. Because it's cheap? I could only understand that if you
>>>>> would otherwise starve to death.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I spent a lot of my childhood on a turkey and chicken ranch. The turkeys
>>>>were free range once they left the brooder house, there was no torturing
>>>>or
>>>>any of that like you're talking about at all. The small drop craw
>>>>turkeys
>>>>were used for fryers by us, and they were really good eating, as were
>>>>the
>>>>chickens, maybe because they were treated so well.
>>>
>>> That sounds good, but that's not how the standard supermarket bird has
>>> lived.
>>>
>>> --
>>> John
>>
>>
>>Well, they were shipped out at maturity to be sent to supermarkets, so
>>that's how they lived.
>
> I guess you've never seen footage from chicken factories.

I guess you've never seen this footage.

http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/fo...Chicken-231348

"Judy Haffner" > wrote in message speaking of grainy
fudge

> Personally I don't care for a grainy texture, as to me it's a failure,
> but maybe it takes you on a trip down memory lane? lol
>
> Judy
>


Yes, but I'm talking about a recipe that is intentionally grainy and as they
say, the graininess is a feature, not a mistake. Pretty much what this
person said:

"I'm looking for the fudge recipe that was on the back of the Hershey's or
Nestle's cocoa drink mix can. This was a recipe from the sixties. We made
in Home Ec in high school. I loved the fudge because it was NOT creamy, but
sugary, grainy. I hope someone has the recipe!!! It was soooo good!!!"


Cheri

"Judy Haffner" > wrote in message
...
>
> Julie Bove wrote:
>
>>There are many different kinds of fudge.
>> The kind with powdered sugar in it will
>> have a slightly grainy texture. And some
>> of it for sure is grainy, to my tooth
>> anyway. My mom always made the kind
>> with the marshmallow cream and
>> chocolate chips in it but that has a
>> different texture than others.
>
> I don't consider the kind of candy made with powdered sugar, as
> authentic fudge. The fudge I'm talking about is where you use granulated
> sugar, milk, butter, vanilla and unsweetened chocolate squares, and use
> a candy thermometer to make sure it's at the right temperature. That is
> the BEST fudge, AFAIC. I don't care for the candy made with marshmallow
> creme and chocolate chips, as to me, it's sickening sweet. I do have a
> good microwave no-fail fudge recipe that calls for chocolate chips and
> mini marshmallows, but isn't loaded with sugar, and it is the texture of
> velvet.
>
Well that is not the kind that my mom made and hers was certainly fudge.
They even call it fudge on the package of marshmallow cream. I have rarely
used a candy thermometer. I do better with the cold water test.

> Even 1 tiny grain of undissolved sugar can turn a batch of candy
> "grainy" in texture, which is not what a candy maker wishes for. I stir
> the ingredients until it comes to a good boil and then I use a warm damp
> paper towel to wipe the sides of the sauce pan down thoroughly before
> inserting the candy thermometer to finish cooking. I also have lightly
> buttered the sides of pot I'm cooking the candy in, as that prevents
> sugar clinging to the sides. I don't have to go through those procedures
> when making it in the microwave.

I do know how to make candy. I have made countless pounds of it over the
years. All kinds. And some of it is grainy. We had this discussion about
pralines a while back. Seems there are two kinds. The grainy and the
smooth. I prefer the grainy.

"Judy Haffner" > wrote in message
...
>
> Cheri wrote:
>
>>I think a lot of moms made that old
>> fashioned fudge like your mom, none of
>> the marshmallow stuff, but it does take
>> time and a lot of stirring, so maybe
>> that's why people don't make it as
>> much. I liked the grainy texture too.
>
> That's the kind my mom always made too, but it was smooth as silk and
> never grainy. The only problem she ever had occasionally, was not
> cooking it to the correct stage, and it turned out to be "pour fudge"!
> :-) Dad and I loved it...she'd pour it out onto a dinner plate and we
> could hardly wait for it to cool enough so we could dig into it with
> spoons! I often use her recipe and have good luck with it.
>
> Personally I don't care for a grainy texture, as to me it's a failure,
> but maybe it takes you on a trip down memory lane? lol

It's not a failure. It's just the kind it is. I have bought fudge many
times at various places and it's often grainy.

"Cheri" > wrote in message
...
> "Judy Haffner" > wrote in message speaking of grainy
> fudge
>
>> Personally I don't care for a grainy texture, as to me it's a failure,
>> but maybe it takes you on a trip down memory lane? lol
>>
>> Judy
>>
>
>
> Yes, but I'm talking about a recipe that is intentionally grainy and as
> they say, the graininess is a feature, not a mistake. Pretty much what
> this person said:
>
> "I'm looking for the fudge recipe that was on the back of the Hershey's or
> Nestle's cocoa drink mix can. This was a recipe from the sixties. We
> made in Home Ec in high school. I loved the fudge because it was NOT
> creamy, but sugary, grainy. I hope someone has the recipe!!! It was soooo
> good!!!"

Yes! I do believe that Judy is wrong. I have made other candies with a
grainy texture such as one that was a Mexican orange candy. And then we had
that praline discussion a while back. I actually prefer candy that is not
too creamy. Creamy is not a texture I usually like.

Cheri wrote:

>Yes, but I'm talking about a recipe that is
> intentionally grainy and as they say, the
> graininess is a feature, not a mistake.
> Pretty much what this person said:

>"I'm looking for the fudge recipe that was
> on the back of the Hershey's or Nestle's
> cocoa drink mix can. This was a recipe
> from the sixties. We made in Home Ec
> in high school. I loved the fudge
> because it was NOT creamy, but
> sugary, grainy. I hope someone has the
> recipe!!! It was soooo good!!!"

Well, shiver my timbers! I started making fudge in the 50's and have
never heard of one on a cocoa drink mix can that was suppose to be
sugary or grainy, and obviously never made it. I took Home Ec. in high
school too, but we never made anything similar.

I wonder why it would turn out like that? Usually a candy maker strives
to make sure that all the sugar is dissolved, so the candy (especially
fudge) comes out smooth, so this is a new one on me, but I've thrown
candy out that turned out like that, after considering it a failure, so
hard to understand why someone would intentionally want those results,
but everyone is different, and we wouldn't want it any other way,
right?! %-}

Of course if there is added ingredients such as nuts, coconut, etc.,
then it won't be smooth, but it wouldn't be grainy either.

Judy

Julie Bove wrote:

>Yes! I do believe that Judy is wrong. I
> have made other candies with a grainy
> texture such as one that was a Mexican
> orange candy. And then we had that
> praline discussion a while back. I
> actually prefer candy that is not too
> creamy. Creamy is not a texture I
> usually like.

Hardly! I have been making candy for more years than your age, I'm sure,
and have won blue ribbons in local fairs with my fudge, and also after
the local fudge co. ate a sample of my candy, they asked me to go to
work for them right on the spot, as it was before Christmas and they
were short handed (it was a long drive and parking was bad in town, so I
wasn't interested, but I was flattered). I don't make pralines, so don't
know anything about the texture of them, and never heard of the baking
cocoa fudge Cheri mentioned, but what I make is never grainy, or gritty,
and nor would I want it to be, but apparently some prefer that texture,
so be it.

Judy

"Judy Haffner" > wrote in message
...
>
> Cheri wrote:
>
>>Yes, but I'm talking about a recipe that is
>> intentionally grainy and as they say, the
>> graininess is a feature, not a mistake.
>> Pretty much what this person said:
>
>>"I'm looking for the fudge recipe that was
>> on the back of the Hershey's or Nestle's
>> cocoa drink mix can. This was a recipe
>> from the sixties. We made in Home Ec
>> in high school. I loved the fudge
>> because it was NOT creamy, but
>> sugary, grainy. I hope someone has the
>> recipe!!! It was soooo good!!!"
>
> Well, shiver my timbers! I started making fudge in the 50's and have
> never heard of one on a cocoa drink mix can that was suppose to be
> sugary or grainy, and obviously never made it. I took Home Ec. in high
> school too, but we never made anything similar.
>
> I wonder why it would turn out like that? Usually a candy maker strives
> to make sure that all the sugar is dissolved, so the candy (especially
> fudge) comes out smooth, so this is a new one on me, but I've thrown
> candy out that turned out like that, after considering it a failure, so
> hard to understand why someone would intentionally want those results,
> but everyone is different, and we wouldn't want it any other way,
> right?! %-}
>
> Of course if there is added ingredients such as nuts, coconut, etc.,
> then it won't be smooth, but it wouldn't be grainy either.

Candy comes in all sorts of textures. It isn't all creamy. I prefer a
certain tooth feel to it. It's hard to describe. And certainly the kind
with the powdered sugar is grainy and a bit too sweet for my taste.

But perhaps this article sums up best the texture I was getting at. And
they use the word "crystalline". That is the tooth feel that I prefer.

http://baking911.com/learn/baked-goo...dy/types/fudge

It also mentions kneading the fudge. Kneading is not something I have ever
done with any kind of a fudge. Fondant? Yes. Fudge? No.

I am starting to think that this is one of those things like the beef or
lamb, cottage or Shepard's pie thing. People seem to prefer what they are
used to I guess.

I did once taste a piece of candy given to me by a coworker. She said that
it was sooo good and her mom made it. I don't know what it was. It did
appear to be chocolate fudge but it was very grainy and had no real
chocolate flavor. It was there but it was very weak. Mostly all I tasted
was something too sweet. And I wasn't alone in my thoughts on that.
Several other people who had tried it had said the same thing.

On Mar 2, 7:43*pm, (Judy Haffner) wrote:
> Julie Bove wrote:
> >Yes! I do believe that Judy is wrong. I
> > have made other candies with a grainy
> > texture such as one that was a Mexican
> > orange candy. And then we had that
> > praline discussion a while back. I
> > actually prefer candy that is not too
> > creamy. Creamy is not a texture I
> > usually like.
>
> Hardly! I have been making candy for more years than your age, I'm sure,
> and have won blue ribbons in local fairs with my fudge, and also after
> the local fudge co. ate a sample of my candy, they asked me to go to
> work for them right on the spot, as it was before Christmas and they
> were short handed (it was a long drive and parking was bad in town, so I
> wasn't interested, but I was flattered). I don't make pralines, so don't
> know anything about the texture of them, and never heard of the baking
> cocoa fudge Cheri mentioned, but what I make is never grainy, or gritty,
> and nor would I want it to be, but apparently some prefer that texture,
> so be it.
>
> Judy

Don't waste your time, Judy.

On 3/1/2013 7:27 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
>
> I went to one but the person who brought me to it really screwed up! It was
> Sephardic and it was a pot luck. He brought a chicken and broccoli
> casserole that used a cream of something soup in it. He kept wondering why
> nobody was eating it.
>

Sounds like a tense time was had by all.

On 3/2/2013 2:04 PM, Judy Haffner wrote:
>
> I don't consider the kind of candy made with powdered sugar, as
> authentic fudge. The fudge I'm talking about is where you use granulated
> sugar, milk, butter, vanilla and unsweetened chocolate squares, and use
> a candy thermometer to make sure it's at the right temperature. That is
> the BEST fudge, AFAIC. I don't care for the candy made with marshmallow
> creme and chocolate chips, as to me, it's sickening sweet. I do have a
> good microwave no-fail fudge recipe that calls for chocolate chips and
> mini marshmallows, but isn't loaded with sugar, and it is the texture of
> velvet.
>
> Even 1 tiny grain of undissolved sugar can turn a batch of candy
> "grainy" in texture, which is not what a candy maker wishes for. I stir
> the ingredients until it comes to a good boil and then I use a warm damp
> paper towel to wipe the sides of the sauce pan down thoroughly before
> inserting the candy thermometer to finish cooking. I also have lightly
> buttered the sides of pot I'm cooking the candy in, as that prevents
> sugar clinging to the sides. I don't have to go through those procedures
> when making it in the microwave.
>
> Judy
>

You sound like you know what you're doing. I used to make fudge too. I
always had a hard time getting the pour into the pan just right. The
pros will dump the hot fudge onto a slab of marble and work it with a
squeegee thingie. They can tell just when it starts to set and will
immediately shape it into a rectangle. It looks like a fun process but I
can't be making that kind of stuff anymore.

"Judy Haffner" > wrote in message
...
>
> Julie Bove wrote:
>
>>Yes! I do believe that Judy is wrong. I
>> have made other candies with a grainy
>> texture such as one that was a Mexican
>> orange candy. And then we had that
>> praline discussion a while back. I
>> actually prefer candy that is not too
>> creamy. Creamy is not a texture I
>> usually like.
>
> Hardly! I have been making candy for more years than your age, I'm sure,
> and have won blue ribbons in local fairs with my fudge, and also after
> the local fudge co. ate a sample of my candy, they asked me to go to
> work for them right on the spot, as it was before Christmas and they
> were short handed (it was a long drive and parking was bad in town, so I
> wasn't interested, but I was flattered). I don't make pralines, so don't
> know anything about the texture of them, and never heard of the baking
> cocoa fudge Cheri mentioned, but what I make is never grainy, or gritty,
> and nor would I want it to be, but apparently some prefer that texture,
> so be it.

Well, I did buy fudge at the fair once and wound up throwing it out. I
didn't like it and neither did anyone else in my family. It was creamy but
I can't remember much beyond that. My mom's fudge and the fudge that I made
as a child was never gritty. I do believe that crystalline is a much better
word for it. But it's a definite texture that this vegan fudge is lacking.
Otherwise it's fine. I have discovered that it has really mellowed as it
sat and it seems much better to me now. Daughter has even eaten some
although she picked out the walnuts. I left them rather on the large size
so that she could do that because I had a feeling that she would.