David Rance > wrote:

> Victor Sack wrote:
>
> >Because one of the first - and essential - steps in cooking Beef
> >Stroganoff is a quick browning/searing of the small pieces of meat over
> >high heat. In the everyday cooking, this step can, in practice, only be
> >made on the stove top. Russian oven is suitable mostly for preparing
> >slowly-cooked food and multi-stage affairs are completely foreign to
> >this way of cooking.
>
> Yes, quite, and slow cooking is the way of cooking tough cuts of meat
> which peasant meat undoubtedly was.

Sure, and this is yet another indication that Beef Stroganoff - which is
supposed to be coked with fillet/tenderloin or similarly tender cuts -
is unlikely to have been a peasant dish. In fact, a French or German
influence is extremely likely.

Victor

David Rance > wrote:

> Victor Sack wrote:
> >
> >Because one of the first - and essential - steps in cooking Beef
> >Stroganoff is a quick browning/searing of the small pieces of meat over
> >high heat.
>
> I meant to reply to this as well.
>
> Why is it essential to sear the meat?

In this case, because it is called-for in the very first recorded recipe
of Beef Stroganoff (and in most of the subsequent ones).

> It is a fallacy that searing
> prevents the loss of moisture. However it *does* add to the flavour due
> to the Maillard reaction but this isn't necessary if the meat is cooked
> slowly in sour cream as that, plus mushrooms and garlic, will give
> flavour. When I cook a stroganoff I have never seared the meat and I've
> never had any complaints about lack of flavour!

I'm sure you are right, but this all is irrelevant to the present
discussion - that of why Beef Stroganoff cannot possibly be a Russian
peasant dish.

> > In the everyday cooking, this step can, in practice, only be
> >made on the stove top. Russian oven is suitable mostly for preparing
> >slowly-cooked food and multi-stage affairs are completely foreign to
> >this way of cooking.
>
> What I have said all along is that the dish now called stroganoff had
> its origins in peasant food. The stroganoff of fine cuisine will not be
> like the peasant original, but the peasant original will have the same
> basic ingredients, that is, beef, mushrooms, garlic and sour cream which
> were all readily available and which can all be cooked slowly.

Evidence, please!

There is not a single recorded traditional Russian recipe - peasant or
otherwise - that could have been a precursur of Beef Stroganoff, even in
as much as being a recipe for meat cut in small pieces before cooking.
According to Olga and Pavel Syutkin in their "Nepridumannaya istoriya
russkoy kukhni" ("Non-invented history of Russian cuisine"), the only
preceding recorded recipes of this kind are "Kroshevo po saksonski iz
telyatiny" (Hash/Crumble of Veal Saxon-style) (and a similar recipe
appeared in the "Culinary Calender" in 1808) and "Klops iz govyadiny"
("Beef Klops") in a 1795 book by V. Lyovshin. Their very names identify
them as being of German origin. Analogous recipes (Klops and
Schnell-Klops) also appear in the Molokhovets's "Gift to the Young
Housewives", where the Beef Stroganoff recipe first appeared in 1871.

Victor

Victor Sack wrote:
> David Rance > wrote:
>
>> Victor Sack wrote:
>>
>> The first published recipe for Beef Stroganoff (1871) did not specify
>> any accompaniments or side dishes.
>>
>> You are partly right though your date for the first published recipe is
>> not. It first appeared in 1861 in a Russian cookbook by Elena Molokhovets.
>
> Incorrect, and I have also made this mistake before. The first edition
> of the book appeared in 1861, but the recipe was first included in the
> 1871 edition.
>
>>> (Beef Stroganoff has always been primarily a restaurant dish in Russia)
>> Not in its origins as it was peasant food. It became known as stroganoff
>> (it is thought) after it became associated with the Stroganoff family
>> which gave it a certain dignified association worthy, then, for it to be
>> included on a restaurant menu.
>
> Nonsense. Not only is it not a peasant dish, it is not even Russian in
> its premise. Traditional Russian meat dishes have always been prepared
> with a solid piece of meat, almost never cut into small pieces or minced
> when still raw. In a recent (2011) book "Nepridumanaya istoriya russkoy
> kukhni" ("Non-invented history of the Russian cuisine"), the authors,
> Olga and Pavel Syutkin, list most everything that is known or just
> surmised about Beef Stroganoff, and there is little doubt that it has
> always been associated with the Stroganoff family and has never had any
> plausible counterpart in the traditional Russian cuisine.
>
> Victor

Oh to be a polyglot! I wonder whether that book will be
translated into English.

On Sun, 3 Mar 2013 Victor Sack wrote:

>David Rance > wrote:
>
>> Victor Sack wrote:
>> >
>> >Because one of the first - and essential - steps in cooking Beef
>> >Stroganoff is a quick browning/searing of the small pieces of meat over
>> >high heat.
>>
>> Why is it essential to sear the meat?
>
>In this case, because it is called-for in the very first recorded recipe
>of Beef Stroganoff (and in most of the subsequent ones).

And in most recipes for beef. It has simply become a habit without
people having any clear idea as to why it's done.
>
>> It is a fallacy that searing
>> prevents the loss of moisture. However it *does* add to the flavour due
>> to the Maillard reaction but this isn't necessary if the meat is cooked
>> slowly in sour cream as that, plus mushrooms and garlic, will give
>> flavour. When I cook a stroganoff I have never seared the meat and I've
>> never had any complaints about lack of flavour!
>
>I'm sure you are right, but this all is irrelevant to the present
>discussion - that of why Beef Stroganoff cannot possibly be a Russian
>peasant dish.

If it is an irrelevance then it is you that brought it up in order to
prove that the Russian peasant could not cook this dish in a Russian
oven! ;-)
>
>> > In the everyday cooking, this step can, in practice, only be
>> >made on the stove top. Russian oven is suitable mostly for preparing
>> >slowly-cooked food and multi-stage affairs are completely foreign to
>> >this way of cooking.
>>
>> What I have said all along is that the dish now called stroganoff had
>> its origins in peasant food. The stroganoff of fine cuisine will not be
>> like the peasant original, but the peasant original will have the same
>> basic ingredients, that is, beef, mushrooms, garlic and sour cream which
>> were all readily available and which can all be cooked slowly.
>
>Evidence, please!
>
>There is not a single recorded traditional Russian recipe - peasant or
>otherwise - that could have been a precursur of Beef Stroganoff, even in
>as much as being a recipe for meat cut in small pieces before cooking.
>According to Olga and Pavel Syutkin in their "Nepridumannaya istoriya
>russkoy kukhni" ("Non-invented history of Russian cuisine"), the only
>preceding recorded recipes of this kind are "Kroshevo po saksonski iz
>telyatiny" (Hash/Crumble of Veal Saxon-style) (and a similar recipe
>appeared in the "Culinary Calender" in 1808) and "Klops iz govyadiny"
>("Beef Klops") in a 1795 book by V. Lyovshin.

I would very much like to read that book as it sounds very interesting
but it doesn't appear to have an English translation and I'm afraid
Russian is not one of my languages.

> Their very names identify them as being of German origin.

Or Jewish.

> Analogous recipes (Klops and
>Schnell-Klops) also appear in the Molokhovets's "Gift to the Young
>Housewives", where the Beef Stroganoff recipe first appeared in 1871.

I wonder if you have a copy of "Restaurant Hospitality" by John Mariani.
In it he writes:

"Despite the allusion of the name 'stroganoff' to Count Paul Stroganoff,
a 19th century Russian diplomat, the origins of the dish have never been
confirmed. Larousse Gastronomique notes that similar dishes were known
since the 18th century......"

and other writers put its origins in the 18th century. I do have an
early copy of Larousse Gastronomique but, unfortunately, it doesn't
mention this dish.

In "The Art of Russian Cuisine", Volokh and Manus write (of beef
stroganoff): "Not a new recipe, by the way, but a refined version of an
even older Russian recipe, it had probably been in the family for some
years and became well known through Pavel Stroganoff's love of
entertaining."

These do not prove that it was originally a peasant dish, of course, but
does put the origins further back than you suggest.

David


--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

Jean B. > wrote:

> Victor Sack wrote:

> > In a recent (2011) book "Nepridumanaya istoriya russkoy
> > kukhni" ("Non-invented history of the Russian cuisine"), the authors,
> > Olga and Pavel Syutkin
>
> Oh to be a polyglot! I wonder whether that book will be
> translated into English.

The chances are remote, I'd say, which is a shame.

Victor

David Rance > wrote:

> On Sun, 3 Mar 2013 Victor Sack wrote:
>
> >David Rance > wrote:
> >
> >In this case, because it is called-for in the very first recorded recipe
> >of Beef Stroganoff (and in most of the subsequent ones).
>
> And in most recipes for beef. It has simply become a habit without
> people having any clear idea as to why it's done.

Well, it probably was not such an ingrained habit in Russia of the time,
the recipe being unusual and non-traditional.

> >I'm sure you are right, but this all is irrelevant to the present
> >discussion - that of why Beef Stroganoff cannot possibly be a Russian
> >peasant dish.
>
> If it is an irrelevance then it is you that brought it up in order to
> prove that the Russian peasant could not cook this dish in a Russian
> oven! ;-)

It is irrelevant in that it matters not whether some cooking method is
better or worse - it matters only that the method under discussion is
not a traditional Russian, let alone peasant, one.

> >There is not a single recorded traditional Russian recipe - peasant or
> >otherwise - that could have been a precursur of Beef Stroganoff, even in
> >as much as being a recipe for meat cut in small pieces before cooking.
> >According to Olga and Pavel Syutkin in their "Nepridumannaya istoriya
> >russkoy kukhni" ("Non-invented history of Russian cuisine"), the only
> >preceding recorded recipes of this kind are "Kroshevo po saksonski iz
> >telyatiny" (Hash/Crumble of Veal Saxon-style) (and a similar recipe
> >appeared in the "Culinary Calender" in 1808) and "Klops iz govyadiny"
> >("Beef Klops") in a 1795 book by V. Lyovshin.
>
> I would very much like to read that book as it sounds very interesting
> but it doesn't appear to have an English translation and I'm afraid
> Russian is not one of my languages.

Unfortunately, this book is indeed not available in any translation.
Pavel Syutkin is a historian by trade and has used his knowledge and
experience in writing the book.
>
> > Their very names identify them as being of German origin.
>
> Or Jewish.

Less likely for a recipe published in 1795.

> I wonder if you have a copy of "Restaurant Hospitality" by John Mariani.
> In it he writes:
>
> "Despite the allusion of the name 'stroganoff' to Count Paul Stroganoff,
> a 19th century Russian diplomat, the origins of the dish have never been
> confirmed. Larousse Gastronomique notes that similar dishes were known
> since the 18th century......"

I think we may safely dismiss Larousse Gastronomique, let alone John
Mariani, in this case. According to LG, it was the French chef Charles
Briere, who, while working in St. Petersburg, Russia had first coined
the name when he submitted a "Stroganoff" recipe to L'Art Culinaire in
1891. Besides, which "similar dishes"? What are their names? This is
not a serious approach.

> In "The Art of Russian Cuisine", Volokh and Manus write (of beef
> stroganoff): "Not a new recipe, by the way, but a refined version of an
> even older Russian recipe, it had probably been in the family for some
> years and became well known through Pavel Stroganoff's love of
> entertaining."

And most every other source has a different Stroganoff as a prime
suspect, the others being Alexander and Grigoriy Stroganoff. And, what
is that "older" recipe? Has it a name? What is the basis of Volokh's
and Manus' assertions?

> These do not prove that it was originally a peasant dish, of course, but
> does put the origins further back than you suggest.

I do not suggest any particulat date or even period. I merely state the
fact that the first recorded Beef Stroganoff recipe was published in
1871.

Now I'll say again that the recipe cannot possibly be a Russian peasant
one, because the methods and techniques employed in its preparation are
completely non-traditional and are likely to be the result of foreign
influence. Cutting meat in small pieces before cooking was not
traditional and neither was stovetop or brazier cooking.

Victor

On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 Victor Sack wrote:

>Now I'll say again that the recipe cannot possibly be a Russian peasant
>one, because the methods and techniques employed in its preparation are
>completely non-traditional and are likely to be the result of foreign
>influence. Cutting meat in small pieces before cooking was not
>traditional and neither was stovetop or brazier cooking.

We're simply going round in circles so now would be an appropriate time
to end this discussion. But thank you for your contributions which I
have found interesting.

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

Victor Sack wrote:
> Jean B. > wrote:
>
>> Victor Sack wrote:
>
>>> In a recent (2011) book "Nepridumanaya istoriya russkoy
>>> kukhni" ("Non-invented history of the Russian cuisine"), the authors,
>>> Olga and Pavel Syutkin
>> Oh to be a polyglot! I wonder whether that book will be
>> translated into English.
>
> The chances are remote, I'd say, which is a shame.
>
> Victor

That it is.

David Rance > wrote:

> Victor Sack wrote:
>
> >Now I'll say again that the recipe cannot possibly be a Russian peasant
> >one, because the methods and techniques employed in its preparation are
> >completely non-traditional and are likely to be the result of foreign
> >influence. Cutting meat in small pieces before cooking was not
> >traditional and neither was stovetop or brazier cooking.
>
> We're simply going round in circles so now would be an appropriate time
> to end this discussion. But thank you for your contributions which I
> have found interesting.

Don't run away. Do tell me what was it that gave you an idea that Beef
Stroganoff could be a Russian peasant dish? What specific precursor did
you have in mind? Where was it first mentioned, pre-1871?

Victor

On Tue, 5 Mar 2013 Victor Sack wrote:

>David Rance > wrote:
>
>> Victor Sack wrote:
>>
>> >Now I'll say again that the recipe cannot possibly be a Russian peasant
>> >one, because the methods and techniques employed in its preparation are
>> >completely non-traditional and are likely to be the result of foreign
>> >influence. Cutting meat in small pieces before cooking was not
>> >traditional and neither was stovetop or brazier cooking.
>>
>> We're simply going round in circles so now would be an appropriate time
>> to end this discussion. But thank you for your contributions which I
>> have found interesting.
>
>Don't run away. Do tell me what was it that gave you an idea that Beef
>Stroganoff could be a Russian peasant dish? What specific precursor did
>you have in mind? Where was it first mentioned, pre-1871?

Well, the embarrassing fact is that I can't tell you! I first got to
know the dish and its history more than fifty years ago but I no longer
have the book(s) and/or reference(s) that I had then. What happened to
them I don't know but they probably got lost when my first marriage
ended and I hadn't thought about it again until this exchange on rfc.

However there are a few references on the Internet to its possible
origin as a peasant dish but with no detail, e.g.:

"The Stroganoff family reportedly made their fortune in 18th century
Russia trading salt and furs, but nowadays the name is mainly associated
with the popular beef dish which bears it. The dish probably goes back
to much earlier peasant fare, but is now commonly attributed to the
household of Count Pavel Stroganoff (1774-1817)."

or this:

"... it should be noted that recipes of meats braised in a sour cream
base are fairly typical of medieval Russian cookery."

or this, referring to Elena Molokhovet's recipe:

"Even in Molokhovet's book, the recipe is referred to as a modified
version of a traditional recipe. There is even evidence that the recipe
had been passed down for generations in Russia, since the 1700s."

These quotes may or may not be reliable but despite what you say, I'm
still inclined to my long-held belief that it does have its origin in
"peasant fare", simply because I don't have access to anything more
authoritative in a language that I can read for myself (English
obviously but also French and German) that would contradict that, and
that it would be possible to cook it in a Russian oven.

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

David Rance > wrote:

[snippage throughout]

> On Tue, 5 Mar 2013 Victor Sack wrote:
> >
> >Don't run away. Do tell me what was it that gave you an idea that Beef
> >Stroganoff could be a Russian peasant dish? What specific precursor did
> >you have in mind? Where was it first mentioned, pre-1871?
>
> However there are a few references on the Internet to its possible
> origin as a peasant dish but with no detail, e.g.:

And you know why there is no detail? Because there are no data. There
is very little in the way culinary literature in Russia published (or
otherwise preserved) before the end of the 18th century. Only then did
the first cookbooks or books with some culinary content started to
appear. Most of what we know - or like to think we know - about ancient
Russian cookery comes from the books written in the 19th and 20th
century, with the authors relying mostly on their imagination.

> "The Stroganoff family reportedly made their fortune in 18th century
> Russia trading salt and furs, but nowadays the name is mainly associated
> with the popular beef dish which bears it. The dish probably goes back
> to much earlier peasant fare, but is now commonly attributed to the
> household of Count Pavel Stroganoff (1774-1817)."

There is really no basis for this assertion.

> or this:
>
> "... it should be noted that recipes of meats braised in a sour cream
> base are fairly typical of medieval Russian cookery."

This is beyond ridiculous - the available knowledge about medieval
Russian recipes is, literally, zero.

The first book containing some really extensive information about food
eaten in Russia was Domostroy, written in the 1550s, already past Middle
Ages. There are long lists of dishes (more than 130 in total), served
according to the time of the year, or to particular holiday or occasion.
Sour cream, as such, and not in relation to a particular dish or manner
of serving, is mentioned only once, it seems. This does not mean it was
not used - it just means we know nothing at all about how it was used.

> or this, referring to Elena Molokhovet's recipe:
>
> "Even in Molokhovet's book, the recipe is referred to as a modified
> version of a traditional recipe. There is even evidence that the recipe
> had been passed down for generations in Russia, since the 1700s."

This is simply not true - there are no comments of the kind whatsoever
in Molokhovets' book - and that also refers to all the other recipes in
the book. I have here a 10-volume edition of her book, containing, it
seems, the recipes from all the past editions (13, before the
revolution).

By the way, Molokhovets' book, a rather eclectic one, contains some 1300
recipes. Of those that are not obviously of foreign origin, there are 5
or 6 meat (specifically beef) ones prepared with sour cream. All of
them call for the beef to be boiled in a piece before it is cut up and
cooked further. The only exception is Beef Stroganoff.

> These quotes may or may not be reliable but despite what you say, I'm
> still inclined to my long-held belief that it does have its origin in
> "peasant fare", simply because I don't have access to anything more
> authoritative in a language that I can read for myself (English
> obviously but also French and German) that would contradict that, and
> that it would be possible to cook it in a Russian oven.

Well, it wouldn't be all that different even if you could read the
language in question, because, as I say, there are simply no data, for
the most part.

Victor

On Thu, 7 Mar 2013 Victor Sack wrote:

>David Rance > wrote:
>
>[snippage throughout]

[ditto]

>> However there are a few references on the Internet to its possible
>> origin as a peasant dish but with no detail, e.g.:
>
>And you know why there is no detail? Because there are no data. There
>is very little in the way culinary literature in Russia published (or
>otherwise preserved) before the end of the 18th century. Only then did
>the first cookbooks or books with some culinary content started to
>appear. Most of what we know - or like to think we know - about ancient
>Russian cookery comes from the books written in the 19th and 20th
>century, with the authors relying mostly on their imagination.

But surely there must have been tradition?

I am a musicologist. There is a great paucity of information about the
history of European folk music simply because those who recorded the
history of music were interested only in art music and considered folk
music to be the music of the people and therefore worthless. It was with
the rise of nationalism in the 19th century that serious composers began
to look to the roots of their own national music, inspired by their own
writers and poets, and try to incorporate it into a new national music.
Until then culture in eastern Europe was very much influenced by western
European music - indeed it *was* western European music. But when
national feeling began to strive for its own identity, the writers and
poets turned to their own national legends. Writers such as (for
instance in Russia) Pushkin, who was then followed by the composer
Glinka.

Forgive the abbreviated argument but can you see what I'm trying to say?
If the musical tradition of the people was considered to be of no worth,
then how much less would the food of peasants be considered to be of
value?

So, as you wrote:

>- the available knowledge about medieval Russian recipes is,
>literally, zero.

Thus my contention about the origin of the dish is not impossible. And
Molokhovet's recipe for what is called stroganoff is so different from
what we know as stroganoff as to be unrecognisable as such to the
majority of people today.

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

David Rance > wrote:

> Victor Sack wrote:
>
> >David Rance > wrote:

[snippage throughout]

> But surely there must have been tradition?

Surely, and I have mentioned two: cooking meat in a piece - cutting up
or mincing meat before cooking first occured sometime in the 18th
centure, probably late in the century; cooking in the Russian oven at a
relatively moderate heat for a long time, with no multi-staged
preparation. Another tradition, practised for a very long time, was not
seasoning the dishes in the course of their preparation - eaters
seasoned them to taste at the table, also adding lots of vinegar, onions
and garlic. Sour cream was - and still is - used more as a garnish than
as an ingredient (but as an ingredient too, sometimes). For example
many Russian soups are garnished with sour cream. That much is known.

> Forgive the abbreviated argument but can you see what I'm trying to say?
> If the musical tradition of the people was considered to be of no worth,
> then how much less would the food of peasants be considered to be of
> value?

Yes, not all that much is known about Russian food before 18th century.

> Thus my contention about the origin of the dish is not impossible.

Mothing is impossible in the face of zero knowledge. On the other hand,
any such contentions are nothing but idle speculations based entirely on
imagination.

> And
> Molokhovet's recipe for what is called stroganoff is so different from
> what we know as stroganoff as to be unrecognisable as such to the
> majority of people today.

I do not know which majority you have in mind, but in Russia most Beef
Stroganoff recipes are still close enough - and sometimes even identical
- to the Molokhovets' ones.

Victor

On 3/1/2013 6:25 AM, jmcquown wrote:

> This is the sort of dried egg noodles I'm talking about for Stroganoff:
>
> http://www.muellerspasta.com/product...oodles-wide-mu
>
> Jill

I like the kind that are balled up like little bird's nests. Makes
portioning easy, and they look nice on the plate.