Damaeus wrote:
>
> In news:rec.food.cooking, "Pete C." > posted on Fri,
> 26 Nov 2010 19:21:22 -0600 the following:
>
> > Damaeus wrote:
> >
> > > In news:rec.food.cooking, "Pete C." > posted on Thu,
> > > 25 Nov 2010 19:48:55 -0600 the following:
> > >
> > > > Water bath??? For a cheesecake??? I've never heard of that in any
> > > > cheesecake recipe, even the screwy ones that use a crust. Are you baking
> > > > cheesecake or a creme brulee???
> > >
> > > Does a creme brulee have a crust?
> >
> > I've certainly never heard of a creme brulee with a crust, normally it
> > is cooked and served in a ramekin and of course had the caramelized
> > sugar crust added to the top before serving.
>
> I wasn't asking that question seriously. I just found it odd that you'd
> ask me if I was making creme brulee since I already said I was making a
> cheesecake with a crust.

I'd never heard of using a water bath with cheesecake before, and creme
brulee always uses a water bath.

>
> This reminds me of that movie, The Million Dollar Duck. Sandy Duncan's
> character was cooking something out of a cookbook, and every time she
> turned her back to add more ingredients to the food, a fan nearby would
> blow the cookbook to a different page, messing up the recipe.

No fans or cookbooks here, modern technology - I print a copy of just
the recipe I'm using.

>
> > > I've never had a cheesecake without a
> > > crust, or I'd call it cheesecake pudding.
> >
> > I'm not sure why you'd call it that, pretty much any cheesecake recipe
> > has a relatively firm texture, vs. puddings which have a very soft
> > texture.
>
> /sigh, yes I know that. Maybe it's a custard-style pudding. If Yoplait
> can get away with making a yogurt you can slice with a knife, can't I make
> cheesecake pudding you can slice with a knife?

I'll have a slice of that gravy please...

>
> > > And I'm not talking about some Keebler pie crust in a pan. I'm
> > > talking about the layer of graham cracker crumbs and butter that is
> > > pressed into the bottom of the springform pan that gives the
> > > cheesecake some kind of base to sit on.
> >
> > Cheesecake doesn't need a base to sit on, it has a firm enough texture
> > to stand on it's own.
>
> I know. I just thought maybe a crust, while optional, was accepted as
> part of cheesecake.

It's not accepted as part of a cheesecake in my kitchen.

>
> > > I would probably like a cheesecake without a crust,
> >
> > I expect you would, it lets you focus on the flavor of the cheesecake
> > without a crust to distract.
>
> Sometimes I like pizza without crust so I can focus on the taste of the
> toppings without a crust to distract, but I'm not sure I'd call it pizza
> if it didn't have a crust. I think that might be a casserole. Still, I'm
> not offended by the idea of cheesecake still being called "cheesecake"
> even without a crust.

Bad analogy, a cheesecake doesn't require a crust to hold it together,
while pizza toppings do.

>
> Hmmm... I wonder what it would be like if I used 3/4 cup of heavy cream
> instead of 3/4 cup of milk in the cheesecake.

Richer no doubt. My recipe doesn't use any milk or cream, sour cream is
the closest match.

>
> > > however, but just because the one I
> > > made has a crust, I don't consider it screwy, bad, wrong, evil or sinful.
> >
> > I do
>
> I'm tempted to surprise them with a crustless cheesecake. Honestly when I
> eat cheesecake, sometimes I like to slice away the crust and eat just the
> cream cheese part. I noticed my friend's mom... She had an amount toward
> the end of her slice that would make two bites. She sliced away the
> crust, ate that, then saved a crustless hunk for her last bite. If she
> thinks like I do, she wanted her last bite to be the best one. I think a
> crustless cheesecake might go over quite well.

They always go over well when I make them.

>
> > > The cheesecake I baked for Thanksgiving was my second using this
> > > recipe. It didn't call for a water bath, but some of the comments
> > > under the recipe did call for one. Plus a discussion I had over
> > > instant messaging has become clearer now. A water bath will keep the
> > > sides of the springform pan from exceeding 212 degrees. That will
> > > result in a cheesecake which has the same creaminess on the sides as
> > > it has in the center.
> >
> > That would be the theory for a water bath, and is why one is used for
> > creme brulee.
>
> I'm going to make creme brulee tonight.

I just made pumpkin creme brulee here, part of my T-Day menu (my T-Day
is Sunday).

>
> > > And while the cheesecake I brought to dinner made everyone moan in
> > > ecstasy like no other food that was on the table, I noticed a
> > > difference in texture as I ate toward the outside edge of the
> > > cheesecake. The center was so creamy that it had no texture at all
> > > that my tongue could detect, but the outside edge did have a texture.
> >
> > It sounds like it didn't quite get evenly done. What was the oven temp,
> > and what temp was the water bath?
>
> I didn't use a water bath, and that's why I posted about the difference in
> texture between the center and the outside edge.

Ok, that makes more sense. Whether that difference in texture is
desirable or not would depend on the recipe I guess. With the recipe I
use and without a crust in the way, the more-baked outside has a nice
character.

> My third cheesecake will
> be made in a water bath. My friend's mom put in an order for a cheesecake
> for Christmas. Anyway, I baked it at 350 degrees for an hour, then turned
> the oven off without closing the door and left it there for eight hours. I
> then took it out of the oven and chilled it in the fridge for the next
> fourteen hours.

Presume you mean without opening the door. That long cooling down
extended bake is essential, but a bit of a pain when you have other
items competing to get into the oven.

>
> I took a picture of it after it had been setting up for five hours in the
> cooling oven. Notice there are no cracks in it. There were no cracks
> after eight hours, and no cracks after chilling for fourteen hours:
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~damaeus/i...cheesecake.jpg
>
> I did put a pan of water in the oven on the bottom rack. I used the same
> method for the first attempt at this cheesecake and had a very small crack
> on each side. I think the added moisture from the steam of the lower pan
> kept the cracks from forming at all this time. Next time I'll put the pan
> directly into the water bath.

I'm not sure that's really it, sometimes I get cracks and sometimes I
don't, with no changes in recipe or technique. The cracks may be related
to the phase of the moon or something.

>
> > > It wasn't gross or inedible or anything, but there *was* a texture and
> > > I didn't like the mouth feel of the outside inch of cheesecake as much
> > > as the center.
> >
> > The cheesecake I bake has a definite texture and "crumb" to it since it
> > contains ricotta cheese. That texture is one of the features I like
> > about the recipe vs. something like NY style which I find is often
> > rather "gluey".
>
> Gluey is the adjective I'd use to describe the cheesecake made with a
> Jell-O cheesecake kit.

I'll take your word for it, since I try to avoid those.

>
> > Since I don't use a water bath, the outside gets a bit more done which
> > intensifies the "crumb" and flavor, something I find very appealing.
>
> I found that the outside inch of mine made me think it was about 80%
> cheesecake, 20% bread pudding. I don't find that texture appealing. I
> want the edge to be exactly like the center; the water bath should
> accomplish that.

Mmmm, bread pudding, that's on my production schedule for tomorrow...

>
> > > A water bath is supposed to keep the outside edge as creamy as the
> > > center where it was absolutely perfect.
> >
> > Sounds like you just need to adjust the balance between water bath
> > starting temp and oven temp to find the point where everything is baked
> > to the same point when it's done.
>
> Yes, on my third attempt, I should get cheesecake perfection because (a) I
> will use a water bath, and (b) I already planned to pour the water boiling
> hot, straight off the pot on the stove into the pan holding the springform
> pan. I may need to get another pan, come to think of it, because I don't
> think I have one deep enough to hold a springform pan unless I use one of
> the big soup-type pots I'd use on the stove.

I use a big Calphalon roasting pan when I make creme brulee, it's around
4" deep, so it should work for a water bath for most any pan.