Basically, how the recipe goes is you whip up shortening, salt &
boiling water together till foamy & then 'cut in' the flour all at
once till the wet absorbs it. The less kneading the more flaky..
When done correctly, it is a wonderful pie crust.

I grew up with this family recipe of a Hot Water Pie Crust & have
always wondered why & how this works. Especially since every
cooking/baking show I ever watch & book read says it has to be cold
throughout.

Can anybody who knows about cooking science explain this?


Denise, Brian & Wyatt (May 31, 02)

How much Healthy Choice ice cream can I eat before it's no longer a healthy choice?

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 00:43:11 -0700, Boudica
> wrote:

Correction, till fluffy, not foamy.

>Basically, how the recipe goes is you whip up shortening, salt &
>boiling water together till foamy & then 'cut in' the flour all at
>once till the wet absorbs it. The less kneading the more flaky..
>When done correctly, it is a wonderful pie crust.
>
>I grew up with this family recipe of a Hot Water Pie Crust & have
>always wondered why & how this works. Especially since every
>cooking/baking show I ever watch & book read says it has to be cold
>throughout.
>
>Can anybody who knows about cooking science explain this?
>
>
>Denise, Brian & Wyatt (May 31, 02)
>
>How much Healthy Choice ice cream can I eat before it's no longer a healthy choice?


Denise, Brian & Wyatt (May 31, 02)

How much Healthy Choice ice cream can I eat before it's no longer a healthy choice?

"Boudica" wrote in message >

> I grew up with this family recipe of a Hot Water Pie Crust & have
> always wondered why & how this works. Especially since every
> cooking/baking show I ever watch & book read says it has to be cold
> throughout.
>
> Can anybody who knows about cooking science explain this?
>
> Denise, Brian & Wyatt (May 31, 02)

That cold shortening, icewater, keep everything cold puzzles me, too. I
took Domestic Science in school (same as Home Economics in the US). We had
no refrigeration so used room-temperature lard, rubbed it into the flour
with the tips of our fingers, and then used tap water to bind. It always
came out great. I wonder what method the UK uses now? I also wonder what
method was used in the US before refrigeration was common?

Dora

"limey" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Boudica" wrote in message >
>
> > I grew up with this family recipe of a Hot Water Pie Crust & have
> > always wondered why & how this works. Especially since every
> > cooking/baking show I ever watch & book read says it has to be cold
> > throughout.
> >
> > Can anybody who knows about cooking science explain this?
> >
> > Denise, Brian & Wyatt (May 31, 02)
>
> That cold shortening, icewater, keep everything cold puzzles me, too. I
> took Domestic Science in school (same as Home Economics in the US). We
had
> no refrigeration so used room-temperature lard, rubbed it into the flour
> with the tips of our fingers, and then used tap water to bind. It always
> came out great. I wonder what method the UK uses now? I also wonder
what
> method was used in the US before refrigeration was common?

Flakiness in pastry comes from having particles of fat interspersed in the
dough. You need to keep the dough cold to prevent the fat from melting and
combining with the dough before it goes into the oven. Some fat, like
butter, has a very sharp melting point that is close to body temperature.
Pie pastry made with butter can be a challenge to roll out and if it is too
warm. The butter will simply melt and make the dough a greasy mess. Once
in the oven, the heat melts the fat and turns the water to steam. You need
to bake pie pastry in a very hot oven so the proteins and starches set
quickly before the fat melts. The dough sets with spaces left where the fat
was and the steam gives it some lift or puff. If the fat melts into the
dough before it is baked you get a very tender but uniform pastry that isn't
flaky. Pie pastry is just a very crude, unorganized puff pastry. Just
think what puff pastry would be like if you simply mixed warm fat and flour
together and rolled it out. It wouldn't have all the organized layers of
dough separated by voids left from where the butter used to be.

I haven't tried the pie pastry recipes that are made with vegetable oil or
melted shortening. I can see how they would be very tender, but I don't
understand how they could be flaky. If the fat in the hot water pie crust
is completely melted by the hot water, then there would be no particles of
fat interspersed in the dough.

>From: "limey"
>Date: 10/21/03 6:51 AM US Mountain Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Boudica" wrote in message >
>
>> I grew up with this family recipe of a Hot Water Pie Crust & have
>> always wondered why & how this works. Especially since every
>> cooking/baking show I ever watch & book read says it has to be cold
>> throughout.
>>
>> Can anybody who knows about cooking science explain this?
>>
>> Denise, Brian & Wyatt (May 31, 02)
>
>That cold shortening, icewater, keep everything cold puzzles me, too. I
>took Domestic Science in school (same as Home Economics in the US). We had
>no refrigeration so used room-temperature lard, rubbed it into the flour
>with the tips of our fingers, and then used tap water to bind. It always
>came out great. I wonder what method the UK uses now? I also wonder what
>method was used in the US before refrigeration was common?
>
>Dora
>

This article includes a recipe:
http://www.journalofantiques.com/hearthnov.htm


I don't make many pies, but when I do I almost always use a recipe that I found
in one of those "hillbilly" cookbooks. I later discovered the same method in
an old "The Joy of Cooking". It's the flour paste method. You take a portion
of the flour/salt mixture and mix a bit of water into that, then incorporate
the paste back into the flour after you've cut in the shortening/lard.


Agnes

"Agnes7777" wrote in message > >From: "limey"
> >Date: 10/21/03 6:51 AM US Mountain Standard Time
> >
> >"Boudica" wrote in message >
> >
> >> I grew up with this family recipe of a Hot Water Pie Crust & have
> >> always wondered why & how this works. Especially since every
> >> cooking/baking show I ever watch & book read says it has to be cold
> >> throughout.
> >>
> >> Can anybody who knows about cooking science explain this?
> >>
> >> Denise, Brian & Wyatt (May 31, 02)
> >
> >That cold shortening, icewater, keep everything cold puzzles me, too. I
> >took Domestic Science in school (same as Home Economics in the US). We
had
> >no refrigeration so used room-temperature lard, rubbed it into the flour
> >with the tips of our fingers, and then used tap water to bind. It
always
> >came out great. I wonder what method the UK uses now? I also wonder
what
> >method was used in the US before refrigeration was common?
> >
> >Dora
> >
> This article includes a recipe:
> http://www.journalofantiques.com/hearthnov.htm
>
> Agnes
>
Thanks, Agnes - reading the article, it looks like I use "Amelia Simmons'
paste #3". I know I have to work fast on the whole procedure, which has
never failed me. That's more than I can say for the "everything ice cold"
method. I suppose I have to face the fact that my method is in the
"Journal of Antiques"!! And rightly so, I might add ;-).

Dora

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:42:49 GMT, "Vox Humana" >
wrote:

>Flakiness in pastry comes from having particles of fat interspersed in the
>dough. You need to keep the dough cold to prevent the fat from melting and
>combining with the dough before it goes into the oven. Some fat, like
>butter, has a very sharp melting point that is close to body temperature.
>Pie pastry made with butter can be a challenge to roll out and if it is too
>warm. The butter will simply melt and make the dough a greasy mess. Once
>in the oven, the heat melts the fat and turns the water to steam. You need
>to bake pie pastry in a very hot oven so the proteins and starches set
>quickly before the fat melts. The dough sets with spaces left where the fat
>was and the steam gives it some lift or puff. If the fat melts into the
>dough before it is baked you get a very tender but uniform pastry that isn't
>flaky. Pie pastry is just a very crude, unorganized puff pastry. Just
>think what puff pastry would be like if you simply mixed warm fat and flour
>together and rolled it out. It wouldn't have all the organized layers of
>dough separated by voids left from where the butter used to be.
>
>I haven't tried the pie pastry recipes that are made with vegetable oil or
>melted shortening. I can see how they would be very tender, but I don't
>understand how they could be flaky. If the fat in the hot water pie crust
>is completely melted by the hot water, then there would be no particles of
>fat interspersed in the dough.

I Guess that's the thing then The fat is not "melted" by the hot
water. You whip the fat & hot water & turn it into a fluffy
consistency. When the flour is incorporated, it is gently cut in.

This is my point though. I'm not sure why or how it works. Maybe
because the shortening used is "Crisco" and it doesn't melt at room
temp the way butter would. That's probably it.


Denise, Brian & Wyatt (May 31, 02)

How much Healthy Choice ice cream can I eat before it's no longer a healthy choice?

"Vox Humana" > wrote in
:


> I haven't tried the pie pastry recipes that are made with vegetable
> oil or melted shortening. I can see how they would be very tender,
> but I don't understand how they could be flaky. If the fat in the hot
> water pie crust is completely melted by the hot water, then there
> would be no particles of fat interspersed in the dough.
>
>

Oil-based pastries are almost always tender, as you imagine, but they are
never flaky. Rather, the texture is quite crumbly. It can be a quite
agreeable combination with the right filling. I have used an oil pastry
occasionally as a pre-baked crust for cream pies such as coconut and
banana. My one experiment with a double-crust oil pastry for a baked fruit
pie was a complete disaster and a gooey (sp) mess.

Wayne

"limey" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Boudica" wrote in message >
>
> > I grew up with this family recipe of a Hot Water Pie Crust & have
> > always wondered why & how this works. Especially since every
> > cooking/baking show I ever watch & book read says it has to be cold
> > throughout.
> >
> > Can anybody who knows about cooking science explain this?
> >
> > Denise, Brian & Wyatt (May 31, 02)
>
> That cold shortening, icewater, keep everything cold puzzles me, too. I
> took Domestic Science in school (same as Home Economics in the US). We
had
> no refrigeration so used room-temperature lard, rubbed it into the flour
> with the tips of our fingers, and then used tap water to bind. It always
> came out great. I wonder what method the UK uses now? I also wonder
what
> method was used in the US before refrigeration was common?


Hi Dora,

Heat also makes it much easier for gluten to form. So if you're not quick
enough to mix and roll out, room temperature water can seriously toughen
your dough. Especially if you're using butter. Lard and Veg shortening will
stay solid at room temp for much longer than butter. Also, shortenings are
100% fat whereas butter is only 85%.

Here in the bakeshop it is fully possible to use tapwater when we are using
a vegetable shortening to make a pie dough, but when making pate brisee (a
purely butter dough), timing and mixing is crucial to the texture. I've
overmixed several times because the water I added wasn't cold enough. This
meant that:

1. My dough had to sit in the fridge for longer before it was workable
enough to roll out, and even then, I could feel the difference,

and

2. The butter had completely mixed into the flour and since butter is 15%
water, it produces even more long gluten strands when you're working the
dough.


When fully baked, a butter crust which has been overmixed will never be as
delicate as one which is shorter.

JMO,
-Jay

--
Never mind about should you or shouldn't you: the question is - will you or
wont you?
-ashleigh brilliant

"Jay" > wrote in message >

> "limey" wrote in message
(Denise's message snipped for brevity)

> > That cold shortening, icewater, keep everything cold puzzles me, too.
I
> > took Domestic Science in school (same as Home Economics in the US). We
> had
> > no refrigeration so used room-temperature lard, rubbed it into the flour
> > with the tips of our fingers, and then used tap water to bind. It
always
> > came out great. I wonder what method the UK uses now? I also wonder
> what
> > method was used in the US before refrigeration was common?
>
>
> Hi Dora,
>
> Heat also makes it much easier for gluten to form. So if you're not quick
> enough to mix and roll out, room temperature water can seriously toughen
> your dough. Especially if you're using butter. Lard and Veg shortening
will
> stay solid at room temp for much longer than butter. Also, shortenings are
> 100% fat whereas butter is only 85%.
>
> Here in the bakeshop it is fully possible to use tapwater when we are
using
> a vegetable shortening to make a pie dough, but when making pate brisee (a
> purely butter dough), timing and mixing is crucial to the texture. I've
> overmixed several times because the water I added wasn't cold enough. This
> meant that:
>
> 1. My dough had to sit in the fridge for longer before it was workable
> enough to roll out, and even then, I could feel the difference,
>
> and
>
> 2. The butter had completely mixed into the flour and since butter is 15%
> water, it produces even more long gluten strands when you're working the
> dough.
>
>
> When fully baked, a butter crust which has been overmixed will never be as
> delicate as one which is shorter.
>
> JMO,
> -Jay

Thanks, Jay, for your comments, which I can fully understand, especially
about using butter. I was referring to what the UK calls shortcrust
pastry, rubbing lard into the flour with the fingers and working very fast.
Some might use a little butter, but I don't. I find the dough is easy to
mix and rolls out easily, especially when the ingredients aren't absolutely
cold or the pastry ball isn't chilled. Speed is really the key.

A UK flaky pastry uses a method somewhat similar to making puff pastry, and
then a lard/butter mix is used. That often needs chilling before rolling.
As the book says, "The cooler the ingredients and utensils and the lighter
the touch when making, the lighter the pastry."

I suppose we all use the method which works best for us.

Dora