How is it possible to become self-sufficent in yeast for baking ?

I'm trying to become self-sufficient in bread yeast, not having
to rely on the availability of dried bread yeast from the shops,
or buying a ball of yeast from the health food store. I'm not
sure what you call the yeast sold in non-dried form... it's like
clay/putty.

For brewing beer, I'm self-sufficient in yeast. I preserve
yeast in glycerine and freeze. Or, I keep slants of yeast on
agar. Or, I re-culture beer yeast from the bottom of a bottle
of beer. Or, I keep a yeast supply in a sucrose solution.

Is it possible to keep a good dual-purpose yeast, capable of
producing a decent beer and bread ? Older textbooks talk
about using the same yeast for beer and bread, but the newer
materials usually adopt a consumerist and specialist approach
to brewing and breadmaking. In other words, buy your beer
yeast from the beer brewing shop, and buy your bread yeast
some other store. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Crossposted to rec.crafts.brewing.

Look forward to reading your enlightening comments.

d

> wrote in message
...
> How is it possible to become self-sufficent in yeast for baking ?
>
> I'm trying to become self-sufficient in bread yeast, not having
> to rely on the availability of dried bread yeast from the shops,
> or buying a ball of yeast from the health food store. I'm not
> sure what you call the yeast sold in non-dried form... it's like
> clay/putty.
>
> For brewing beer, I'm self-sufficient in yeast. I preserve
> yeast in glycerine and freeze. Or, I keep slants of yeast on
> agar. Or, I re-culture beer yeast from the bottom of a bottle
> of beer. Or, I keep a yeast supply in a sucrose solution.
>
> Is it possible to keep a good dual-purpose yeast, capable of
> producing a decent beer and bread ? Older textbooks talk
> about using the same yeast for beer and bread, but the newer
> materials usually adopt a consumerist and specialist approach
> to brewing and breadmaking. In other words, buy your beer
> yeast from the beer brewing shop, and buy your bread yeast
> some other store. Doesn't make any sense to me.
>
> Crossposted to rec.crafts.brewing.
>
> Look forward to reading your enlightening comments.

Why reinvent the wheel? You can get two pounds of active dry yeast for
about $3.50 - maybe less if you shop around. Like anything else, using the
right tools and right ingredients results in a better product with less
effort.

On 2 Feb 2005 17:08:30 GMT, lid wrote:

>How is it possible to become self-sufficent in yeast for baking ?
>
>I'm trying to become self-sufficient in bread yeast, not having
>to rely on the availability of dried bread yeast from the shops,
>or buying a ball of yeast from the health food store. I'm not
>sure what you call the yeast sold in non-dried form... it's like
>clay/putty.
>
>For brewing beer, I'm self-sufficient in yeast. I preserve
>yeast in glycerine and freeze. Or, I keep slants of yeast on
>agar. Or, I re-culture beer yeast from the bottom of a bottle
>of beer. Or, I keep a yeast supply in a sucrose solution.
>
>Is it possible to keep a good dual-purpose yeast, capable of
>producing a decent beer and bread ? Older textbooks talk
>about using the same yeast for beer and bread, but the newer
>materials usually adopt a consumerist and specialist approach
>to brewing and breadmaking. In other words, buy your beer
>yeast from the beer brewing shop, and buy your bread yeast
>some other store. Doesn't make any sense to me.
>
>Crossposted to rec.crafts.brewing.
>
>Look forward to reading your enlightening comments.
>
>d

Howdy,

When you are ready to bake a loaf, but before adding any
salt, fats or other ingredients, pinch off a piece of your
dough and put it in the refrigerator (are you off the power
grid also?).

Then, when you next are ready to bake, incorporate that ball
of dough.

As long as you don't forget to save it, you are set from
here on out.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

lid wrote:
> How is it possible to become self-sufficent in yeast for baking ?
>
> I'm trying to become self-sufficient in bread yeast, not having
> to rely on the availability of dried bread yeast from the shops,
> or buying a ball of yeast from the health food store. I'm not
> sure what you call the yeast sold in non-dried form... it's like
> clay/putty.
>
> Look forward to reading your enlightening comments.
>
> d

I once kept a sour dough starter going for 3 or 4 years. Always
produced great bread from that. Did limit baking some bread/roll styles.

I have never heard of a good dual purpose bread/beer yeast. My first
attempt at making beer over 30 years ago involved a can of Blue Ribbon
Malt and Red Star bread yeast. What a disaster! I can't imagine a
bread yeast working for beer. On the other hand, I have thought of
using the yeast slurry from one of my beers for making a batch of bread.
At least going that direction is a lot cheaper if you have to throw
out the resulting batch.

I am sure you know about sour dough, but that is about all I have to offer.

Wayne
Bugeater Brewing Company

Vox Humana > wrote:

> Why reinvent the wheel? You can get two pounds of active dry yeast for
> about $3.50 - maybe less if you shop around. Like anything else, using the
> right tools and right ingredients results in a better product with less
> effort.

I'm not sure I understand your comments.

I'm researching techniques used to propagate and maintain a yeast
culture for breadmaking, and synergies with other craft activities
(viz. homebrewing). A wholistic approach, perhaps.

If you think it is not possible to be self-sufficient in yeast for
baking, perhaps you might like to clarify and elaborate on your
opinion. Always interested to hear another baker's views. :-)

Regarding the cost of yeast, which you mention in your post. If
cost alone was the criteria used for baking bread, I may as
well rely on the corporations completely and retire from the craft.

Regards
d

Kenneth > wrote:

> When you are ready to bake a loaf, but before adding any
> salt, fats or other ingredients, pinch off a piece of your
> dough and put it in the refrigerator (are you off the power
> grid also?).

I'm not off the grid yet unfortunately. So, it's just keeping
back some dough/water/yeast in a ball, somewhere cold.

> Then, when you next are ready to bake, incorporate that ball
> of dough.

If I save a ball of dough, when I next bake, what are you
supposed to do ? Do you mix that dough in some water with
sugar/flour to get it going... yeast propagating again ?

'Stepping it up' is the term used in brewing, where you
grow the yeast colony so that's it's sufficient for
optimum fermentation purposes.

> As long as you don't forget to save it, you are set from
> here on out.

Many thanks for your help.

d

lid wrote:
> How is it possible to become self-sufficent in yeast for baking ?
>
> I'm trying to become self-sufficient in bread yeast, not having
> to rely on the availability of dried bread yeast from the shops,
Um, I believe they call it "sourdough".


HTH,
Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply

> wrote in message
...
> Vox Humana > wrote:
>
> > Why reinvent the wheel? You can get two pounds of active dry yeast for
> > about $3.50 - maybe less if you shop around. Like anything else, using
the
> > right tools and right ingredients results in a better product with less
> > effort.
>
> I'm not sure I understand your comments.
>
> I'm researching techniques used to propagate and maintain a yeast
> culture for breadmaking, and synergies with other craft activities
> (viz. homebrewing). A wholistic approach, perhaps.
>
> If you think it is not possible to be self-sufficient in yeast for
> baking, perhaps you might like to clarify and elaborate on your
> opinion. Always interested to hear another baker's views. :-)
>
> Regarding the cost of yeast, which you mention in your post. If
> cost alone was the criteria used for baking bread, I may as
> well rely on the corporations completely and retire from the craft.
>

You simply said that you wanted to become self-sufficient and did not
mention any other benefit from doing so. I pointed out that yeast is so
inexpensive that it wouldn't be worth the bother. Now if you said that you
wanted to make bread with some special quality not possible with commercial
yeast, that would be a different matter. Of course I know that it is
possible, and that many people bake bread using the starter that have been
cultivating for years. I guess I wonder why stop with the yeast?
Why not grown your own wheat, gather water from a stream, evaporate sea
water for salt, and make your own wood fired oven? It might be an
interesting intellectual exercise, but life is too short to fool around
reinventing the wheel, in my opinion.

> wrote in message
...
> Vox Humana > wrote:
>
> > Why reinvent the wheel? You can get two pounds of active dry yeast for
> > about $3.50 - maybe less if you shop around. Like anything else, using
the
> > right tools and right ingredients results in a better product with less
> > effort.
>
> I'm not sure I understand your comments.
>
> I'm researching techniques used to propagate and maintain a yeast
> culture for breadmaking, and synergies with other craft activities
> (viz. homebrewing). A wholistic approach, perhaps.
>
> If you think it is not possible to be self-sufficient in yeast for
> baking, perhaps you might like to clarify and elaborate on your
> opinion. Always interested to hear another baker's views. :-)
>
> Regarding the cost of yeast, which you mention in your post. If
> cost alone was the criteria used for baking bread, I may as
> well rely on the corporations completely and retire from the craft.
>

You simply said that you wanted to become self-sufficient and did not
mention any other benefit from doing so. I pointed out that yeast is so
inexpensive that it wouldn't be worth the bother. Now if you said that you
wanted to make bread with some special quality not possible with commercial
yeast, that would be a different matter. Of course I know that it is
possible, and that many people bake bread using the starter that have been
cultivating for years. I guess I wonder why stop with the yeast?
Why not grown your own wheat, gather water from a stream, evaporate sea
water for salt, and make your own wood fired oven? It might be an
interesting intellectual exercise, but life is too short to fool around
reinventing the wheel, in my opinion.

Vox Humana > wrote:

> You simply said that you wanted to become self-sufficient and did not
> mention any other benefit from doing so. I pointed out that yeast is so
> inexpensive that it wouldn't be worth the bother.

Expensiveness and bother are subjective variables. I respect your right
to shopbuy your yeast, as I'm sure you will allow me to do otherwise.

> wanted to make bread with some special quality not possible with commercial
> yeast, that would be a different matter. Of course I know that it is
> possible, and that many people bake bread using the starter that have been
> cultivating for years. I guess I wonder why stop with the yeast?
> Why not grown your own wheat, gather water from a stream, evaporate sea
> water for salt, and make your own wood fired oven? It might be an
> interesting intellectual exercise, but life is too short to fool around
> reinventing the wheel, in my opinion.

You digress too far. My original posting is about being self-sufficient
in *yeast* for baking. Growing wheat and the other activities
you mention requires land and capital, whereas maintaining a yeast
supply is something any peasant can do.

Thanks for your opinions. Very interesting perspective.

d

On 2 Feb 2005 17:58:03 GMT, lid wrote:

>Kenneth > wrote:
>
>> When you are ready to bake a loaf, but before adding any
>> salt, fats or other ingredients, pinch off a piece of your
>> dough and put it in the refrigerator (are you off the power
>> grid also?).
>
>I'm not off the grid yet unfortunately. So, it's just keeping
>back some dough/water/yeast in a ball, somewhere cold.
>
>> Then, when you next are ready to bake, incorporate that ball
>> of dough.
>
>If I save a ball of dough, when I next bake, what are you
>supposed to do ? Do you mix that dough in some water with
>sugar/flour to get it going... yeast propagating again ?
>
>'Stepping it up' is the term used in brewing, where you
>grow the yeast colony so that's it's sufficient for
>optimum fermentation purposes.
>
>> As long as you don't forget to save it, you are set from
>> here on out.
>
>Many thanks for your help.
>
>d

Hello again,

I wrote "incorporate" as in "mix in."

Even a tiny ball of such old dough will have billions of
living yeast cells.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

lid wrote:
> How is it possible to become self-sufficent in yeast for baking ?
>
> I'm trying to become self-sufficient in bread yeast, not having
> to rely on the availability of dried bread yeast from the shops,
> or buying a ball of yeast from the health food store. I'm not
> sure what you call the yeast sold in non-dried form... it's like
> clay/putty.
>
> For brewing beer, I'm self-sufficient in yeast. I preserve
> yeast in glycerine and freeze. Or, I keep slants of yeast on
> agar. Or, I re-culture beer yeast from the bottom of a bottle
> of beer. Or, I keep a yeast supply in a sucrose solution.
>
> Is it possible to keep a good dual-purpose yeast, capable of
> producing a decent beer and bread ? Older textbooks talk
> about using the same yeast for beer and bread, but the newer
> materials usually adopt a consumerist and specialist approach
> to brewing and breadmaking. In other words, buy your beer
> yeast from the beer brewing shop, and buy your bread yeast
> some other store. Doesn't make any sense to me.
>
> Crossposted to rec.crafts.brewing.
>
> Look forward to reading your enlightening comments.
>
> d

The idea of yeast self sufficiency is rather weird. (Except maybe for
the natural sourdough practitioners who has the diligence to maintain
their starter for several years, even centuries).

IMO Only an eccentric type of person would think otherwise (culturing
bakers and brewers yeasts for personal use), and I presume you are.....
May I ask....Are you some kind of a survivalist entity living in a
very isolated place far from civilization or doing some sort of self
exile ?
Anyway....
If you have (in your 'castaway' den) the facilities for
microbiological study and culture then you can get a pure strain of
either brewers and bakers yeast( when you come down from your hermetic
existence and visit occasionally modern civilization) and culture them
separately and use as needed.
Bur regarding your question of using one type of yeast for baking and
brewing; that was indeed done in the past.
If we think about the origin of the commercial bakers yeast it was
derived from the ale yeast. Saccharomyces cereviseae.... BTW, .the word
'cerevise' means beer
I think as your are a brewer by heart, and a baker by necessity,you
know that there are two main groups of beer yeast:
The top fermenting yeast use in making ales and the bottom fermenting
type for lager type beer. IIRC the name of the latter is Saccharomyces
Uvarum or called elsewhere as Saccharomyces Carbergensis.
Lately the classification for brewers yeast had come under the wing of
saccharomyces cerevisease but to distinguish between the different
yeast .However,the older classification still stick in the mind of the
brewers and these folks are die hard fanatics of the older
classification.
The brewers type of yeast( ale yeast) is suitable for longer multi
stage fermentation or the so called; sponge and dough' bread making
method category, but less adapted to the straight and other short time
process.They are less tolerant to higher sugar level than the modern
strain of bakers yeast.
Now regarding performance the ale yeast has a the temperature optima
of degree 30 deg C ,it can be adopted to bread making( just like what
our ancestors are doing) but not the lager yeast due to its slower
activity( and lower temperature optima 25 degree C).
In order to support your self-sufficiency doctrine and check for
yourself the feasibility: You can also try using your cultured brewers
yeast for breadbaking and see if it's suitable.

Roy

lid wrote:
> How is it possible to become self-sufficent in yeast for baking ?
>
> I'm trying to become self-sufficient in bread yeast, not having
> to rely on the availability of dried bread yeast from the shops,
> or buying a ball of yeast from the health food store. I'm not
> sure what you call the yeast sold in non-dried form... it's like
> clay/putty.
>
> For brewing beer, I'm self-sufficient in yeast. I preserve
> yeast in glycerine and freeze. Or, I keep slants of yeast on
> agar. Or, I re-culture beer yeast from the bottom of a bottle
> of beer. Or, I keep a yeast supply in a sucrose solution.
>
> Is it possible to keep a good dual-purpose yeast, capable of
> producing a decent beer and bread ? Older textbooks talk
> about using the same yeast for beer and bread, but the newer
> materials usually adopt a consumerist and specialist approach
> to brewing and breadmaking. In other words, buy your beer
> yeast from the beer brewing shop, and buy your bread yeast
> some other store. Doesn't make any sense to me.
>
> Crossposted to rec.crafts.brewing.
>
> Look forward to reading your enlightening comments.
>
> d

The idea of yeast self sufficiency is rather weird. (Except maybe for
the natural sourdough practitioners who has the diligence to maintain
their starter for several years, even centuries).

IMO Only an eccentric type of person would think otherwise (culturing
bakers and brewers yeasts for personal use), and I presume you are.....
May I ask....Are you some kind of a survivalist entity living in a
very isolated place far from civilization or doing some sort of self
exile ?
Anyway....
If you have (in your 'castaway' den) the facilities for
microbiological study and culture then you can get a pure strain of
either brewers and bakers yeast( when you come down from your hermetic
existence and visit occasionally modern civilization) and culture them
separately and use as needed.
Bur regarding your question of using one type of yeast for baking and
brewing; that was indeed done in the past.
If we think about the origin of the commercial bakers yeast it was
derived from the ale yeast. Saccharomyces cereviseae.... BTW, .the word
'cerevise' means beer
I think as your are a brewer by heart, and a baker by necessity,you
know that there are two main groups of beer yeast:
The top fermenting yeast use in making ales and the bottom fermenting
type for lager type beer. IIRC the name of the latter is Saccharomyces
Uvarum or called elsewhere as Saccharomyces Carbergensis.
Lately the classification for brewers yeast had come under the wing of
saccharomyces cerevisease but to distinguish between the different
yeast .However,the older classification still stick in the mind of the
brewers and these folks are die hard fanatics of the older
classification.
The brewers type of yeast( ale yeast) is suitable for longer multi
stage fermentation or the so called; sponge and dough' bread making
method category, but less adapted to the straight and other short time
process.They are less tolerant to higher sugar level than the modern
strain of bakers yeast.
Now regarding performance the ale yeast has a the temperature optima
of degree 30 deg C ,it can be adopted to bread making( just like what
our ancestors are doing) but not the lager yeast due to its slower
activity( and lower temperature optima 25 degree C).
In order to support your self-sufficiency doctrine and check for
yourself the feasibility: You can also try using your cultured brewers
yeast for breadbaking and see if it's suitable.

Roy

I have used Nottingham successfully in bread.

"The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty" >
wrote in message ...
> lid wrote:
> > How is it possible to become self-sufficent in yeast for baking ?
> >
> > I'm trying to become self-sufficient in bread yeast, not having
> > to rely on the availability of dried bread yeast from the shops,
> > or buying a ball of yeast from the health food store. I'm not
> > sure what you call the yeast sold in non-dried form... it's like
> > clay/putty.
> >
> > For brewing beer, I'm self-sufficient in yeast. I preserve
> > yeast in glycerine and freeze. Or, I keep slants of yeast on
> > agar. Or, I re-culture beer yeast from the bottom of a bottle
> > of beer. Or, I keep a yeast supply in a sucrose solution.
> >
> > Is it possible to keep a good dual-purpose yeast, capable of
> > producing a decent beer and bread ? Older textbooks talk
> > about using the same yeast for beer and bread, but the newer
> > materials usually adopt a consumerist and specialist approach
> > to brewing and breadmaking. In other words, buy your beer
> > yeast from the beer brewing shop, and buy your bread yeast
> > some other store. Doesn't make any sense to me.
>
> Beer yeast and bread yeast are distinctly differnet strains. Even within
> brewing strains there is enormous variation in the final product
> produced -- this isn't simply "consumerist" nonsense.
>
> In general bread yeast makes poor beer -- most folks consider such beer
> unacceptable, but obviously this depends on the taster.
>
> However, it may well be that beer yeast would be fine for making bread.
> The best thing to do would be to give it a try.
>
> Hope that helps -- m
>
> --
> (Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
>
> Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
> http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html

I have used Nottingham successfully in bread.

"The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty" >
wrote in message ...
> lid wrote:
> > How is it possible to become self-sufficent in yeast for baking ?
> >
> > I'm trying to become self-sufficient in bread yeast, not having
> > to rely on the availability of dried bread yeast from the shops,
> > or buying a ball of yeast from the health food store. I'm not
> > sure what you call the yeast sold in non-dried form... it's like
> > clay/putty.
> >
> > For brewing beer, I'm self-sufficient in yeast. I preserve
> > yeast in glycerine and freeze. Or, I keep slants of yeast on
> > agar. Or, I re-culture beer yeast from the bottom of a bottle
> > of beer. Or, I keep a yeast supply in a sucrose solution.
> >
> > Is it possible to keep a good dual-purpose yeast, capable of
> > producing a decent beer and bread ? Older textbooks talk
> > about using the same yeast for beer and bread, but the newer
> > materials usually adopt a consumerist and specialist approach
> > to brewing and breadmaking. In other words, buy your beer
> > yeast from the beer brewing shop, and buy your bread yeast
> > some other store. Doesn't make any sense to me.
>
> Beer yeast and bread yeast are distinctly differnet strains. Even within
> brewing strains there is enormous variation in the final product
> produced -- this isn't simply "consumerist" nonsense.
>
> In general bread yeast makes poor beer -- most folks consider such beer
> unacceptable, but obviously this depends on the taster.
>
> However, it may well be that beer yeast would be fine for making bread.
> The best thing to do would be to give it a try.
>
> Hope that helps -- m
>
> --
> (Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
>
> Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
> http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html

Kenneth wrote:
> On 2 Feb 2005 17:08:30 GMT, lid wrote:
>
>
>>How is it possible to become self-sufficent in yeast for baking ?
>>
>>I'm trying to become self-sufficient in bread yeast, not having
>>to rely on the availability of dried bread yeast from the shops,
>>or buying a ball of yeast from the health food store. I'm not
>>sure what you call the yeast sold in non-dried form... it's like
>>clay/putty.
>>
>>For brewing beer, I'm self-sufficient in yeast. I preserve
>>yeast in glycerine and freeze. Or, I keep slants of yeast on
>>agar. Or, I re-culture beer yeast from the bottom of a bottle
>>of beer. Or, I keep a yeast supply in a sucrose solution.
>>
>>Is it possible to keep a good dual-purpose yeast, capable of
>>producing a decent beer and bread ? Older textbooks talk
>>about using the same yeast for beer and bread, but the newer
>>materials usually adopt a consumerist and specialist approach
>>to brewing and breadmaking. In other words, buy your beer
>>yeast from the beer brewing shop, and buy your bread yeast
>>some other store. Doesn't make any sense to me.
>>
>>Crossposted to rec.crafts.brewing.
>>
>>Look forward to reading your enlightening comments.
>>
>>d
>
>
> Howdy,
>
> When you are ready to bake a loaf, but before adding any
> salt, fats or other ingredients, pinch off a piece of your
> dough and put it in the refrigerator (are you off the power
> grid also?).

Personally, I'd keep back part of the sponge, not the dough. Practise
varies across Europe and depends a bit on the type of bread being made.
In some places they did keep a bit of dough, and some buried it to
keep through the winter too.

Controlling the strains (for sourdough etc) seems to depend on what goes
into the sponge, and the growth and storage conditions. I haven't seen
any explicit explanation of how to manipulate the sponge environment for
various outcomes. I think that this is why you see potato in so many
sourdough sponge recipes, though.

If anyone knows or has a reference, I'd like to know more