I have been using kieselsol and liquid gelatin to clear my wine but
see my local supplier no longer carriers it. I would rather not use
bentonite clay I find a bit awkward to work with and was wondering
what works best?

"Jim" > wrote in message
...
>I have been using kieselsol and liquid gelatin to clear my wine but
> see my local supplier no longer carriers it. I would rather not use
> bentonite clay I find a bit awkward to work with and was wondering
> what works best?

You're comparing apples to oranges.

Bentonite is used to remove proteinaceous materials from wine that would
otherwise precipitate during the aging process and render the wine cloudy
again.

Gelatin is used to precipitate harsh tasting tannins from wine, thereby
smoothing the flavor.

Kieselsohl is used with either of the above to help compact the lees,
threrby reducing racking losses.

Clarification of the wine is a _side_ benefit of the fining process. It is
not the primary effect.

As for obtaining liquid gelatin, just buy some in powder form from a
homebrew shop, dissolve it in warm water to a 5% solution and stir it into
the wine before it jells. Normal usage range is between ¼ and 2 pounds dry
gelatin per 1000 gallons of wine. I tend to use ½ to 1 pound per thousand.

You should conduct a fining trial on a bottle's worth of your wine to
determine the correct adjustment and then scale the result up for the entire
batch.

Tom S

Thank you for the information Tom, for me this is a learning
experiance. What do you think of isinglass to clear white wine?

On Sun, 02 Oct 2005 21:47:29 GMT, "Tom S" >
wrote:

>
>"Jim" > wrote in message
.. .
>>I have been using kieselsol and liquid gelatin to clear my wine but
>> see my local supplier no longer carriers it. I would rather not use
>> bentonite clay I find a bit awkward to work with and was wondering
>> what works best?
>
>You're comparing apples to oranges.
>
>Bentonite is used to remove proteinaceous materials from wine that would
>otherwise precipitate during the aging process and render the wine cloudy
>again.
>
>Gelatin is used to precipitate harsh tasting tannins from wine, thereby
>smoothing the flavor.
>
>Kieselsohl is used with either of the above to help compact the lees,
>threrby reducing racking losses.
>
>Clarification of the wine is a _side_ benefit of the fining process. It is
>not the primary effect.
>
>As for obtaining liquid gelatin, just buy some in powder form from a
>homebrew shop, dissolve it in warm water to a 5% solution and stir it into
>the wine before it jells. Normal usage range is between ¼ and 2 pounds dry
>gelatin per 1000 gallons of wine. I tend to use ½ to 1 pound per thousand.
>
>You should conduct a fining trial on a bottle's worth of your wine to
>determine the correct adjustment and then scale the result up for the entire
>batch.
>
>Tom S
>

What about good ol' egg whites ?

that just sounds disgusting.

--
billb
"CJ" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> What about good ol' egg whites ?
>

"Jim Robertson" > wrote in message
...
> Thank you for the information Tom, for me this is a learning
> experiance. What do you think of isinglass to clear white wine?

Isinglass is _excellent_ for some wines - including reds. I fined my 2004
Chardonnay with isinglass after doing trials against my usual gelatin. The
isinglass treated wine had better mouth feel. It was a subtle difference,
but distinct.

Tom S

"CJ" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> What about good ol' egg whites ?

Personally, I don't care for egg white fining. It's not nearly as
aggressive as gelatin, so you need to use more for a given wine, and it's a
lot more trouble to prepare.

That said, I wouldn't rule it out.

Tom S

Does anyone have an opinion of sparkalloid?

On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 02:33:28 GMT, "Tom S" >
wrote:

>
>"Jim Robertson" > wrote in message
.. .
>> Thank you for the information Tom, for me this is a learning
>> experiance. What do you think of isinglass to clear white wine?
>
>Isinglass is _excellent_ for some wines - including reds. I fined my 2004
>Chardonnay with isinglass after doing trials against my usual gelatin. The
>isinglass treated wine had better mouth feel. It was a subtle difference,
>but distinct.
>
>Tom S
>

Yeah, gelatin is really powerfull and can strip a lot out of wine.
Bentonite on the other hand is fairly gentle. Isenglass and aparkaloid
are inbetween.

I use gelatin when I have a really really hazy fruit wine (like from
plums, peaches, apricots -the worst-). It will pull out a pectin haze,
I do not know of any other fining that will very well. If you do use
gelatin, you will most likely want to add some tannin back...it takes
that out too. Also I find that gelatin works better if left for a long
time to fully settle. That is fine early, rack off the lees and then
bulk age. A lot of times you will find "jellyfish" sitting on the
bottom 9 months after fining. It would suck to have that in the
bottle.

Persoanlly, I think every wine maker (assuming they make more than just
grape wines) should have an arsenal of fining agents to use if need be.
At least 3, isinglass or sparlaloid, gelatin (high pectin wines only)
and bentonite.

Of course, there are dozens of finings you could use, try a few and
decide which ones you like

Thankl you all for the help.

On 5 Oct 2005 14:09:44 -0700, "Droopy" > wrote:

>Yeah, gelatin is really powerfull and can strip a lot out of wine.
>Bentonite on the other hand is fairly gentle. Isenglass and aparkaloid
>are inbetween.
>
>I use gelatin when I have a really really hazy fruit wine (like from
>plums, peaches, apricots -the worst-). It will pull out a pectin haze,
>I do not know of any other fining that will very well. If you do use
>gelatin, you will most likely want to add some tannin back...it takes
>that out too. Also I find that gelatin works better if left for a long
>time to fully settle. That is fine early, rack off the lees and then
>bulk age. A lot of times you will find "jellyfish" sitting on the
>bottom 9 months after fining. It would suck to have that in the
>bottle.
>
>Persoanlly, I think every wine maker (assuming they make more than just
>grape wines) should have an arsenal of fining agents to use if need be.
> At least 3, isinglass or sparlaloid, gelatin (high pectin wines only)
>and bentonite.
>
>Of course, there are dozens of finings you could use, try a few and
>decide which ones you like

I am a newbie but have not yet needed to use any fining materials for
my grape wines (only made 4 so far ... 3 from concentrates and one from
grapes from garden). However, I plan to make my first CHERRY (sour)
wine this coming summer (I have a BIG tree). I have all three finings
(Bentonite, Sparkaloid, and Gelatin) ... which of these would you try
first for cherry wine if needed? Is one of these an obvious choice for
cherry or would you simply start with the most gentle (bentonite) then
try sparkaloid, then gelatin if still needed?

Thanks in advance for any comments!
Roger L. Pelletier
Aurora, NE USA

Hey Roger,

I am in Lincoln, my sister lives in Aurora.

It will really depend on what problem you have. The worse the wine
looks, the stronger the fining you will want to use. If it is sitting
there for 6 months and is still as thick as mud, go with the gelatin
(again, only ever seen that needed in drupe wines -apricots, plums,
peaches in that order of severity). If it just has a hint of haze, you
could clear it by cold stabilization even. It really becomes a
judgement call.

Cherries have significant pectin, but they are small enough that you
can extract most of the juice without too much maceration, which I
think is the biggest problem with things like apricots.

I had very good results using sparkolloid to clear a sauvignon blanc
last year. Only detraction is the lees are very fluffy and when racking
can be easily disturbed. Take care when racking of sparkolloid lees.

Joe
Jim Robertson wrote:
> Does anyone have an opinion of sparkalloid?
>
> On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 02:33:28 GMT, "Tom S" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>"Jim Robertson" > wrote in message
. ..
>>
>>>Thank you for the information Tom, for me this is a learning
>>>experiance. What do you think of isinglass to clear white wine?
>>
>>Isinglass is _excellent_ for some wines - including reds. I fined my 2004
>>Chardonnay with isinglass after doing trials against my usual gelatin. The
>>isinglass treated wine had better mouth feel. It was a subtle difference,
>>but distinct.
>>
>>Tom S
>>
>
>

Thanks Droopy ... that helps.

I plan to try Jack Keller's recipe (North Star {sour} cherry wine). It
calls for pectic enzyme up front. I wasn't sure if cherries had a lot
of pectin or not so your response is helpful ... I'll make sure I use
an ample quantity.

It's a small world! I buy some of my supplies from Kirk's Brewshop in
Lincoln whenever I make a trip to Lincoln or Omaha. If you want some
cherries come late-June, let me know. We usually always have buckets
and buckets that just rot and go to the birds!

Thanks again,
Roger L. Pelletier
Aurora, NE USA

In article .com>,
Wino-Nouveau > writes
>I am a newbie but have not yet needed to use any fining materials for
>my grape wines (only made 4 so far ... 3 from concentrates and one from
>grapes from garden). However, I plan to make my first CHERRY (sour)
>wine this coming summer (I have a BIG tree). I have all three finings
>(Bentonite, Sparkaloid, and Gelatin) ... which of these would you try
>first for cherry wine if needed? Is one of these an obvious choice for
>cherry or would you simply start with the most gentle (bentonite) then
>try sparkaloid, then gelatin if still needed?
>
I have been very pleased with results from using Bentonite in fruit and
concentrated grape juice wines. I learned from this group to add it to
the must at the start making the wines, but it can be added later if
need be. Soak a little in water for 24hrs. then add about a teaspoonful
of the mix to each gallon. It settles as sediment once it has done its
job, and it is not a problem when racking.
--
Alan Gould. North Lincolnshire, UK.

Thanks Alan. I noticed a lot of kit wines also add Bentonite to the
must prior to fermantation. I was planning to make 2 batches of cherry
wine anyway so maybe I'll do one with pectic enzyme and one with
Bentonite.

RogerL. Pelletier
Aurora, NE USA

"Droopy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I use gelatin when I have a really really hazy fruit wine (like from
> plums, peaches, apricots -the worst-). It will pull out a pectin haze,
> I do not know of any other fining that will very well.

Sounds like you should be using pectic enzyme to treat that problem - not
gelatin.

Tom S

I do use pectic enzyme.

It still happens.

More trouble? You think so? I think egg whites are easier to prepare
than making a bentonite slurry. Neither are very difficult.

One point this thread seems to be missing; the differences in fining
reasons and strategies between whites and reds. With whites, it is not
uncommon to use two fining agents in sequence; one positive, one
negative. Some winemakers consider this necessary to clear a white of
protein haze.

With reds, the issue is much more subtle; whehter to fine or not
depends on the wine, and what you want of it. I like fining some reds
that tend to be too harsh (tannins) with egg whites. I have some Syrah
finishing secondary right now that I will likely egg white fine in the
search for a Rhone style blender.

"Ric" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> More trouble? You think so? I think egg whites are easier to prepare
> than making a bentonite slurry. Neither are very difficult.

Bentonite isn't that bad to prepare. I boil a liter of water, pour it while
hot into a blender, turn it on low and dump 50 to 60 grams of bentonite in
and mix for a couple of minutes, using a rubber spatula to push the mud down
the upper walls of the blender. You need to be careful not to (1) burn
yourself with the hot water and (2) not to get the spatula into the blade
while it's running. If you're a klutz, turn the blender off while scraping
down. When the mixture is smoothly blended with no lumps, pour it (still
hot) into a jug or bottle to finish hydrating for a day or two before using.
Shake it up and you're ready to go!

> One point this thread seems to be missing; the differences in fining
> reasons and strategies between whites and reds.

The reasons and strategies are similar, but have small differences. Most
reds don't require bentonite fining. In the first place, clarity isn't as
much of an issue with reds as it is in whites. Also, most reds don't tend
to throw protein haze. The dominant precipitate in reds is polymerized
tannins.

That said, there are a couple of exceptions: (1) Pinot Noir, which tends to
throw protein deposits in bottle if it is not treated with bentonite, and
(2) reds that you wish to filter. Filters tend to become blinded more
readily unless the wine in question has been at least lightly bentonite
fined.

Most white wines don't require tannin reduction, but barrel aged whites can
be an exception.

Aside from that, fining objectives are the same for reds and whites. The
goal is always to make the wine taste better.

Tom S

I am thinking about using hot sprkalloid to fine my white wines tell
me is it better to add fining imediatly after alcoholic fermentation
or should you fine after the wine had been racked a couple of times
and is farly clear?

On 7 Oct 2005 08:11:08 -0700, "Droopy" > wrote:

>I do use pectic enzyme.
>
>It still happens.

Unless you know that the will will nto clear by itself (an how can you
know that?). You should let as much settle out as you can byu itself.
That will allow you to decide what strength fining agent to use

Thank you for the advice it sounds very logical.

On 11 Oct 2005 09:56:30 -0700, "Droopy" > wrote:

>Unless you know that the will will nto clear by itself (an how can you
>know that?). You should let as much settle out as you can byu itself.
>That will allow you to decide what strength fining agent to use

i thought bentonite should never be used on a red as it will strip sum
of the colour? i once used bentonite that came with a red wine kit a
year ago not thinking and it came out a dark rose!

Bentonite or gelatin?

Gelatin will Bentonite is pretty gentle.

In article . com>,
Droopy > writes
>Bentonite or gelatin?
>
>Gelatin will Bentonite is pretty gentle.
>
Is gelatin suitable for white wine?
If so, what is the preferred way of applying it?
--
Alan Gould. North Lincolnshire, UK.

"Alan Gould" > wrote in message
...
> In article . com>,
> Droopy > writes
>>Bentonite or gelatin?
>>
>>Gelatin will Bentonite is pretty gentle.
>>
> Is gelatin suitable for white wine?

Yes, but unless the wine has been oak aged you should add tannin or
kieselsohl as well to counterfine the gelatin.

> If so, what is the preferred way of applying it?

Dissolve the gelatin in warm water to a 5% solution and pour slowly into the
wine with vigorous stirring. Typical usage range is ¼ to 2 pounds per 1000
gallons. Run a bench trial to determine how much you need.

Tom S

In article >, Tom S
> writes

Alan wrote:
>> Is gelatin suitable for white wine?
>
>Yes, but unless the wine has been oak aged you should add tannin or
>kieselsohl as well to counterfine the gelatin.
Thanks Tom. Tannin went in at mashing, but I will taste test it.
>
>> If so, what is the preferred way of applying it?
>
>Dissolve the gelatin in warm water to a 5% solution and pour slowly into the
>wine with vigorous stirring. Typical usage range is ¼ to 2 pounds per 1000
>gallons. Run a bench trial to determine how much you need.
>
I'm only dealing with 2 gallons, so a small pinch of gelatin grains in
warm water will do the job - has already done the job.

--
Alan Gould. North Lincolnshire, UK.

why do you engage in this whole nonsense process of fining?

For looks??

--
billb

"Ric" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> More trouble? You think so? I think egg whites are easier to prepare
> than making a bentonite slurry. Neither are very difficult.
>
> One point this thread seems to be missing; the differences in fining
> reasons and strategies between whites and reds. With whites, it is not
> uncommon to use two fining agents in sequence; one positive, one
> negative. Some winemakers consider this necessary to clear a white of
> protein haze.
>
> With reds, the issue is much more subtle; whehter to fine or not
> depends on the wine, and what you want of it. I like fining some reds
> that tend to be too harsh (tannins) with egg whites. I have some Syrah
> finishing secondary right now that I will likely egg white fine in the
> search for a Rhone style blender.
>

"billb" > wrote in message
...
> why do you engage in this whole nonsense process of fining?
>
> For looks??

No. For flavor. And that's _not_ nonsense.

Tom S

> No. For flavor. And that's _not_ nonsense.
>
> Tom S


is that right. give me a quick primer on fining.

thanks.

--