Jeff et all

First point: This is one of the best discussions I have seen on this
News group, vis-a-vis pruning, canes, spurs, growth etc. Second: I
am glad to see that there are many who have questions related to vigor
and growth this year, as we have been having amazing growth here on
the Central Coast of California. We have the same questions.
Interestingly, as we visit vineyards in the area, it seems that all
theories of viticulture abound. Perhaps there are few "right" or
"wrong" answers.

We have internodal distances of 6 and 8 inches on the new canes!
(Spur distance is 4-5 inches) We barely finish pruning the 15th row,
and it seems as if the 1st row needs attention again. Usually we keep
our trunks clean of any kind of growth so that the energy is targeted
at the new fruit and the leaves necessary to nourish them. This year
we have left some trunk growth on the plants longer than in the past
in an attempt to slow them down a bit, and do removing them, but not
as diligently as we have in our previous 6 growing seasons.

It has been a very wet year here, and the soil is still damp a few
inches below the surface. We have had to leaf and lateral thin twice
already just to be able to see the fruit! Someone noted that taking
off leaves and laterals now was not a problem as there would be plenty
of growth to come. Absolutely our case and belief. While admittedly
a bit lax on the trunks this year, we have been a bit more aggressive
on the canopy side this year, as we see how fast the vines are
growing. The fruit crop is more plentiful than normal, and at this
point we are letting it grow to stress the plants a bit. We will drop
some later.

In all, this has been a schizophrenic growing season for us thus far,
and it has only just begun!

Regards

Jerry





"jeff" > wrote in message
...
> on fruiting canes developing a series of fruit bearing shoots, as
> well as non-fruiting shoots...should non-fruiting shoots generally
> be pinched off, or should they be left on for photosynthetic value?
>
> Jeff
>

Jerry,

Well I'm glad to see I'm not the only one with this pruning challenge. I
feel I might be beginning to get a picture now, regarding what is generally
allowed to remain and what is not. As you say, we are so early into the
season, whatever is removed at this stage has several weeks to grow back in.
All in all, I'm perceiving shoot removal is a judgement call, pertaining to
varietal, location, training system and several other variables. I guess one
has to simply get in sync with his own vines.

Our growing season here in southern ontario has also been schizophrenic.
Lengthy amounts of sun and warmth, followed by a rain, followed by mixed sun
and cloud, and the cycle starts over again.

I made a judgement call and pruned today, foreseeing the potential
congestion of vegetation as the season gets into full swing. I've cleaned my
trunks and the base of my canes as well, except for lower shoots I plan to
grow into next years fruiting canes (I cane prune, to keep things simple for
the time being).

Strangely, a few of my vines are not fruiting at all, for reasons I have not
come to terms with yet. I have removed quite a bit of vegetation from them,
save choice shoots for next year.

I'll wait and see what happens to the vineyard next, and make a decision
based on how my vines react to what I did today.

All the best for your own vines, and growing season

Jeff

"Jerry DeAngelis" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Jeff et all
>
> First point: This is one of the best discussions I have seen on this News
> group, vis-a-vis pruning, canes, spurs, growth etc. Second: I am glad to
> see that there are many who have questions related to vigor and growth
> this year, as we have been having amazing growth here on the Central Coast
> of California. We have the same questions. Interestingly, as we visit
> vineyards in the area, it seems that all theories of viticulture abound.
> Perhaps there are few "right" or "wrong" answers.
>
> We have internodal distances of 6 and 8 inches on the new canes! (Spur
> distance is 4-5 inches) We barely finish pruning the 15th row, and it
> seems as if the 1st row needs attention again. Usually we keep our trunks
> clean of any kind of growth so that the energy is targeted at the new
> fruit and the leaves necessary to nourish them. This year we have left
> some trunk growth on the plants longer than in the past in an attempt to
> slow them down a bit, and do removing them, but not as diligently as we
> have in our previous 6 growing seasons.
>
> It has been a very wet year here, and the soil is still damp a few inches
> below the surface. We have had to leaf and lateral thin twice already
> just to be able to see the fruit! Someone noted that taking off leaves
> and laterals now was not a problem as there would be plenty of growth to
> come. Absolutely our case and belief. While admittedly a bit lax on the
> trunks this year, we have been a bit more aggressive on the canopy side
> this year, as we see how fast the vines are growing. The fruit crop is
> more plentiful than normal, and at this point we are letting it grow to
> stress the plants a bit. We will drop some later.
>
> In all, this has been a schizophrenic growing season for us thus far, and
> it has only just begun!
>
> Regards
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
>
> "jeff" > wrote in message
> ...
>> on fruiting canes developing a series of fruit bearing shoots, as well as
>> non-fruiting shoots...should non-fruiting shoots generally be pinched
>> off, or should they be left on for photosynthetic value?
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>
>

Hi Jeff
Hydroponic viticulture....wow!! For some reason this concept has never
occurred to me but what an interesting idea. Please keep letting us
know how this goes please Jeff. From the photos it seems you're doing
things pretty much as they should be, the vines look healthy. Last
season I had areas of the vineyard I was managing that had more non
fruiting shoots than other parts. After much discussion and
observation we decided it may well have been that they were lacking
some nutrients due to the soil type in that part of the vineyard. It
seems to me though that being hydroponically grown all your vines would
receive the same nutrients as the others, so perhaps for some reason
they are a little more stressed? Just a thought.
Are you keeping notes on what you are doing with the vines each time
you work on them? also, if you're not sure which is the best way to
treat them, then perhaps having a control group to compare with might
be a good idea. Even treating one vine differently may be enough to do
comparisons.
My thoughts on your shoot thinning are that opening up the canopy is a
good thing, especially if you have high humidty. It will help control
and show any powdery or botrytis problems.

Jerry,
Sounds like the season you are having is the season we've just finished
here in New Zealand. It was probably one of the most unpredictable
seasons we've every had. Taught us all a lot I think and made us think
out of the square, just as you are doing ie not bud rubbing the trunks
as often or as thoroughly as you may have other seasons. We shoot
thinned and then had to come through and lateral thin several times on
some of our blocks. We still had powdery mildew problems and now feel
we should have been more agressive with the lateral thinning. Next year
we intend to be but it will probably be a dry year with less growth,
just because we are prepared for the opposite.
This is a great discussion by the way. Always interesting to hear what
other viticulturists are up to. )

"kiwizoom" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Hi Jeff
> Are you keeping notes on what you are doing with the vines each time
> you work on them?

I've been keeping detailed notes and daily records of weather, pH, growth
rate, hours of sunshine, spray schedules, as well as regular dated photos of
vine development. It's become an obsession.

> My thoughts on your shoot thinning are that opening up the canopy is a
> good thing, especially if you have high humidty. It will help control
> and show any powdery or botrytis problems.

Yes, I did thin a lot. Fact is, I didn't do a lot of winter/spring pruning,
until I knew how my buds were going to behave.

I will keep the group posted.

Thanks for your input.

Jeff

Jeff,

How many canes are you allowing for each vine??? How much fruit will
you leave on each plant??? BTW, obviously I think you made the right
decision about the non-fruiting shoots. With a vertical fruiting cane,
are you seeing 'even" growth from all your shoots on the cane???


Bob


Bob

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Jeff,
>
> How many canes are you allowing for each vine???

Due to space restrictions, I am starting with ONE fruitng cane for each
vine.

>How much fruit will you leave on each plant???

While dealing with hydroponic issues, and potassium needs, I have reduced my
clusters already, from what started out as 15, and pinched back down to
between 5 and 7 per vine. Until I can determine root demand, nutritional
capabilities, and other details.

I'm watching leaves carefully, maintaining nutrient pH, and keeping
potassium demands at optimum levels. I've experience potassium deficiencies
before in soil, and know the signs. Not seeing any at this point.
Hydroponics allows for immediate adjustments.

>BTW, obviously I think you made the right decision about the non-fruiting
>shoots. With a vertical fruiting cane, are you seeing 'even" growth from
>all your shoots on the cane???

Sort of. Yes and no. Because I didn't cut my can back early, top buds grew
shoots first. Lower buds lagged behind. As a result, this year I am working
with a top heavy canopy, and training fruiting shoots within that space.

Jeff

Jeff,

Couple more questions.

1. Don't you bring your vines inside over the winter??? If so I would
assume most of the buds should have survived.

2. The non-fruitful vines is an interesting issue. Hmmm........

3. Did you use the hot-house to get these things going this spring????
I would assume hot-houses are like BIG grow tubes and would assume that
is why your vines are so ahead of everyone elses and so vigorous. I
personnally don't use grow tubes and it would be interesting to know
how the vines respond when you take the hot-house down. I would assume
the vigor would slow until the natural environment catches up to the
climate of the hot house. I wouldn't assume a linear vigor pattern
because of that.


Bob

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Jeff,
>
> Couple more questions.
>
> 1. Don't you bring your vines inside over the winter??? If so I would
> assume most of the buds should have survived.

I picked up a little winter preservation trick. When I bought the vines
originally they were bundled in cold storage. For the last 5 years I've been
repeating the process with the same vines. Every November after leaf fall
and total dormancy, I soak in a mild fungicide, and gently wrap the roots
and canes in individual plastics and keep in a refrigerator at 34 F until
April. I check them every 4 to 6 weeks, re soak, etc. So far, so good.

> 2. The non-fruitful vines is an interesting issue. Hmmm........

Acutally, on closer inspection, they are fruiting, sort of. I'm noticing
tiny mutated flowering clusters. Only one vine is behaving this way at this
point. I'm treating it as a non fruiting vine.

> 3. Did you use the hot-house to get these things going this spring????

Yes, a portable greenhouse that puts up and takes down in 30 minutes.
Because we have high frost risk spring, I protect the buds over night.
Without use of a heater, daytime temps can climb to 55 or 60 F. This gives
them a bit of a head start on local vines. I remove the greenhouse when
weather is consistently risk free, or during the day. If a week of cold
spring rain is in the forecast it goes up and stays until the systme passes
through.

> I would assume hot-houses are like BIG grow tubes and would assume that

I used grow tubes for starting vines years ago. Didn't like them. They had
their own ecosystem in there and it was nerve racking.

>it would be interesting to know how the vines respond when you take the
>hot-house down.

Yes, they behave normally. I allow hothouse temps to equalize with outside
first, then take it down. The vines behave fine. no drooping or shock.
Better sun.

>I would assume the vigor would slow until the natural environment catches
>up to the climate of the hot house. I wouldn't assume a linear vigor
>pattern because of that.

Perhaps you are right about that. Showing good growth, but due to my
deliberate space restrictions and a bit of survival cheating in spring (and
fall), there is a different morphology with the canopy.

Jeff