A few years back Clyde was talking about not using bentonite because
kieselsol seemed to be doing the job of protein stability. I was
wondering if anyone, or Clyde, ever figured out if that really worked.
I don't like bentonite because the bentonite causes its own haze that
doesn't like to fall out. And on that topic, does anyone know of a
good way to get rid of bentonite haze?
Thanks
Bill
(Guthrie OK)

I use Sparkalloid to remove bentonite. Add both then cold stabilize.

I too am interested in kieselsol. Tom S has alot of experience here,
hopefully he'll chime in.

Gary
Lewis Family Vineyards

I think Tom S always uses bentonite - that's my impression from his
posts on fining. The haze should only result if there was too much
bentonite used in the first place. In any case, kieselsol has the same
charge as bentonite, so my guess is it should also work on protein
hazes.

Other than Sparkalloid, isinglass, chitosan or gelatin should all help
with bentonite haze.

Pp

Lewis Family Vineyards wrote:
> I use Sparkalloid to remove bentonite. Add both then cold stabilize.
>
> I too am interested in kieselsol. Tom S has alot of experience here,
> hopefully he'll chime in.
>
> Gary
> Lewis Family Vineyards

"pp" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I think Tom S always uses bentonite - that's my impression from his
> posts on fining. The haze should only result if there was too much
> bentonite used in the first place. In any case, kieselsol has the same
> charge as bentonite, so my guess is it should also work on protein
> hazes.
>
> Other than Sparkalloid, isinglass, chitosan or gelatin should all help
> with bentonite haze.

You have to do bench trials to determine what's best for any specific wine.
What worked last year may not be right this year. Sorry if that's not too
helpful. :^(

Tom S

"Lewis Family Vineyards" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I use Sparkalloid to remove bentonite. Add both then cold stabilize.
>
> I too am interested in kieselsol.

Isn't that stuff also used to make dynamite?


Tom S has alot of experience here,
> hopefully he'll chime in.
>
> Gary
> Lewis Family Vineyards
>

"Bob" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Lewis Family Vineyards" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> I too am interested in kieselsol.
>
> Isn't that stuff also used to make dynamite?

Interesting question. Kieselsohl is essentially silica gel solution, and
will solidify over time when it loses a critical amount of water. I suppose
it _could_ have applications in explosives, but I'd guess its major
application is in winemaking.

Tom S

Tom,

A couple thoughts and questions.

1. I added 1 cup of bentonite solution each to a 5 gallon container and
a 7 gallon container of the SAME wine. The 5 gallon container cleared
great but the 7 gallon container is now MORE cloudy. Since the 7
gallons is obvious MORE than the 5 I can't see the haze being from too
much bentonite so do you have any insight into what's going on ??

2. After you bentonite I've read you throw the Kieselsohl and the
gelatin on top of the bentonite before racking. When you do that do you
stir vigorously to stir up the bentonite or do you just stir the
Kieselsohl and gelatin into the top few inches of wine and let it
settle like a net into the bentonite lees? If so, do you have any
pointers about how to do that? I plan on adding the Kieselsohl first
because of what you said about making the wine seem "sweeter".

3. Is there any danger of the bentonite/Kieselsohl/gelatin lees
causing OFF odors if left in the wine too long????

4. If you do get a bentonite haze, what do YOU use to get it out???

5. Do you ever use egg whites for your chardonnay??

I know, it's alot of questions.


As always, TIA,

Bob


Tom S wrote:
> "Bob" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Lewis Family Vineyards" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >> I too am interested in kieselsol.
> >
> > Isn't that stuff also used to make dynamite?
>
> Interesting question. Kieselsohl is essentially silica gel solution,
and
> will solidify over time when it loses a critical amount of water. I
suppose
> it _could_ have applications in explosives, but I'd guess its major
> application is in winemaking.
>
> Tom S

In article >, Bob >
writes
...
>> I use Sparkalloid to remove bentonite. Add both then cold stabilize.
>>
>> I too am interested in kieselsol.
>
> Isn't that stuff also used to make dynamite?

Kieselguhr, I believe, or some such spelling. What the difference might
be, on the other hand...
--
cheers,
robin
Robin's Big Adventures In Oz: http://www.robinsomes.co.uk/oz

"Robin Somes" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Bob >
> writes
> ...
> >> I use Sparkalloid to remove bentonite. Add both then cold stabilize.
> >>
> >> I too am interested in kieselsol.
> >
> > Isn't that stuff also used to make dynamite?
>
> Kieselguhr, I believe, or some such spelling. What the difference might
> be, on the other hand...

Right you are!! I was close but cigarless. It is a synonym for
diatomaceous earth and is used to stabilize nitroglycerin so it can be
handled. My old brain just doesn't have enough sense to get my facts
straight..... Sorry 'bout dat!
Bob
> --
> cheers,
> robin
> Robin's Big Adventures In Oz: http://www.robinsomes.co.uk/oz

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> 1. I added 1 cup of bentonite solution each to a 5 gallon container and
> a 7 gallon container of the SAME wine. The 5 gallon container cleared
> great but the 7 gallon container is now MORE cloudy. Since the 7
> gallons is obvious MORE than the 5 I can't see the haze being from too
> much bentonite so do you have any insight into what's going on ??

Assuming identical wine in both vessels, there are only 3 possibilities I
see at the moment:

(1) The fining materials were more different between the two than was
apparent,

(2) The difference between 5 and 7 gallons was more critical than you
thought,

(3) Your technique when mixing in the bentonite was different enough to
make a difference.

Regarding (1), was the second lot of finings from the same batch as the
first, just divided between the two, or was it prepared separately from the
first batch. IOW, could the preparation of the finings be the critical
difference?

> 2. After you bentonite I've read you throw the Kieselsohl and the
> gelatin on top of the bentonite before racking. When you do that do you
> stir vigorously to stir up the bentonite

Yes. But you don't have to. What you need to do is emulate as closely as
possible whatever you did in your trials that worked best.

> 3. Is there any danger of the bentonite/Kieselsohl/gelatin lees
> causing OFF odors if left in the wine too long????

Not that I've seen, but I only leave it for a few months or so usually.

> 4. If you do get a bentonite haze, what do YOU use to get it out???

Isinglass and/or gelatin and/or a plate & frame filter.

> 5. Do you ever use egg whites for your chardonnay??

No. I'm sure some do though - possibly to good effect.

Tom S

Thanks Tom,

The bentonite came from the same batch just pured into a cup container
and added. I always stir the hell out of the delivery container first
to make sure it's well mixed before EVERY cup. I used the middle ratio
that Presque Isle recommended ( 1.5g/gal ) . I mix the bentonite
initailly with a mixer which seems to do a GREAT job and saves my
blender. Once in the carboy, I use one of those mixing wands which
mixes the hell out the stuff so it was mixed in to both carboys really
good. I didn't do "trials" per ce ( i know I should have ) but was was
just wondering if you knew what was happening. This isn't the first
time this has happened to me so I figured I try and find out what is
happening. What I usually do is rack then add more bentonite and it
clears BUT I was wondering that if NOT enough bentonite was added, why
would it make the wine cloudier, which to me doesn't make any sense.
What I haven't done yet is follow with gelatin and see if that clears
it up. I'll let you know what I find. Anyway , I definitely plan on
doing trials before I add the Kies/gelatin because of the more
detrimental effects that gelatin seems to cause if OVER used. I'm also
going to experiment with egg whites. I'm still a novice at this fining
thing and I will do bench trials with bentonite from now on.

As usual ,many thanks for your time and expertise.


Bob

Any chance this is just due to the difference in the size of the
containers??
Looking through a larger carboy requires you to look "through" more wine
which could make it look more cloudy than the smaller carboy. ?

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thanks Tom,
>
> The bentonite came from the same batch just pured into a cup container
> and added. I always stir the hell out of the delivery container first
> to make sure it's well mixed before EVERY cup. I used the middle ratio
> that Presque Isle recommended ( 1.5g/gal ) . I mix the bentonite
> initailly with a mixer which seems to do a GREAT job and saves my
> blender. Once in the carboy, I use one of those mixing wands which
> mixes the hell out the stuff so it was mixed in to both carboys really
> good. I didn't do "trials" per ce ( i know I should have ) but was was
> just wondering if you knew what was happening. This isn't the first
> time this has happened to me so I figured I try and find out what is
> happening. What I usually do is rack then add more bentonite and it
> clears BUT I was wondering that if NOT enough bentonite was added, why
> would it make the wine cloudier, which to me doesn't make any sense.
> What I haven't done yet is follow with gelatin and see if that clears
> it up. I'll let you know what I find. Anyway , I definitely plan on
> doing trials before I add the Kies/gelatin because of the more
> detrimental effects that gelatin seems to cause if OVER used. I'm also
> going to experiment with egg whites. I'm still a novice at this fining
> thing and I will do bench trials with bentonite from now on.
>
> As usual ,many thanks for your time and expertise.
>
>
> Bob
>

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thanks Tom,
>
> The bentonite came from the same batch just pured into a cup container
> and added. I always stir the hell out of the delivery container first
> to make sure it's well mixed before EVERY cup. I used the middle ratio
> that Presque Isle recommended ( 1.5g/gal ) . I mix the bentonite
> initailly with a mixer which seems to do a GREAT job and saves my
> blender. Once in the carboy, I use one of those mixing wands which
> mixes the hell out the stuff so it was mixed in to both carboys really
> good. I didn't do "trials" per ce ( i know I should have ) but was was
> just wondering if you knew what was happening. This isn't the first
> time this has happened to me so I figured I try and find out what is
> happening. What I usually do is rack then add more bentonite and it
> clears BUT I was wondering that if NOT enough bentonite was added, why
> would it make the wine cloudier, which to me doesn't make any sense.
> What I haven't done yet is follow with gelatin and see if that clears
> it up. I'll let you know what I find. Anyway , I definitely plan on
> doing trials before I add the Kies/gelatin because of the more
> detrimental effects that gelatin seems to cause if OVER used. I'm also
> going to experiment with egg whites. I'm still a novice at this fining
> thing and I will do bench trials with bentonite from now on.
>
> As usual ,many thanks for your time and expertise.
>
>
> Bob

Bob, Tom & All,
I have been following this thread with some interest. But I am confused.
Why would you fine with a wine with Bentonite to remove protein and then add
a protein material, such as gelatin, back on top of the Bentonite???
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA

"Lum" > wrote in message
...
> Bob, Tom & All,
> I have been following this thread with some interest. But I am confused.
> Why would you fine with a wine with Bentonite to remove protein and then
> add
> a protein material, such as gelatin, back on top of the Bentonite???

Hi, Lum -

I've wondered about that in the past too, but that's the way I learned it
many years ago. Apparently, even though gelatin is proteinaceous, it
doesn't remain in the wine - at least not in quantity to cause protein
instability problems. It ends up in the fining lees, with other large
molecules (tannins etc.) stuck to it like socks in the dryer.

Tom S

"Tom S" > wrote in message
news
>
> "Lum" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Bob, Tom & All,
> > I have been following this thread with some interest. But I am
confused.
> > Why would you fine with a wine with Bentonite to remove protein and then
> > add
> > a protein material, such as gelatin, back on top of the Bentonite???
>
> Hi, Lum -
>
> I've wondered about that in the past too, but that's the way I learned it
> many years ago. Apparently, even though gelatin is proteinaceous, it
> doesn't remain in the wine - at least not in quantity to cause protein
> instability problems. It ends up in the fining lees, with other large
> molecules (tannins etc.) stuck to it like socks in the dryer.
>
> Tom S
>

Thanks Tom,
That is a good trick to know. Bentonite lees are so light and fluffy, they
are difficult to handle. I try to hot stabilize and then cold stabilize
immediately to compact the Bentonite lees. But, this hot/cold procedure is
not always convenient, so I will try gelatin the next time I have this
problem.
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA